Full Version: The Sorting Hat - Origins and Properties
i was wondering whats your theorys on how the sorting hat can tell who belong in the house.
It tells us in one of the songs. Probably Book Four, I think. Maybe One....anyway, it's not important.
It says that when the Founders got old and realized they had to have some way of sorting the students, Gryffindor took off his hat and put "brains" in it, whatever that means. I guess that the Founders had to articulate whatever it was that they looked for in students (bravery, ruthlessness, loyalty, cleverness) and then tell the hat that. And somehow, they gave the hat the ability to read the mind of whoever was wearing it. Well, probably not the mind, as Snape says that you cannot actually read a mind....probably more like their personality. Hope this helped!
It says that when the Founders got old and realized they had to have some way of sorting the students, Gryffindor took off his hat and put "brains" in it, whatever that means. I guess that the Founders had to articulate whatever it was that they looked for in students (bravery, ruthlessness, loyalty, cleverness) and then tell the hat that. And somehow, they gave the hat the ability to read the mind of whoever was wearing it. Well, probably not the mind, as Snape says that you cannot actually read a mind....probably more like their personality. Hope this helped!
I believe the sorting hat says something like this:
| QUOTE |
| 'Twas Gryffindor who found the way, He whipped me off his head The founders put some brains in me So I could choose instead! Now slip me snug about your ears, I've never yet been wrong, I'll have a look inside your mind And tell where you belong |
I think that passage means Godric Gryffindor placed some of his persona in the hat, as did his colleagues. So the hat has the combined personalities of each Founder to choose.
Since the hat's enchantment is to sort according to a child's persona, I think each founder simultaneously looks for what they like, be it Hufflepuff's respect for hard-workers; or Gryffindors admiration towards those who stick up for others. If a quality stands out more so than what other Houses are searching for, then that is where the person will be sorted. For example, the sorting hat's calculation of where Harry should be:
| QUOTE |
| The Sorting Hat: "Hmmm," said a small voice in his ear. "Difficult. Very difficult. Plenty of courage, I see. Not a bad mind either. There's talent, oh my goodness yes -- and a nice thirst to prove yourself, now that's interesting.... So where shall I put you?" (SS7) |
Gryffindor=courage, Ravenclaw=not a bad mind, Hufflepuff=talent, Slytherin=a nice thirst to prove yourself (ambition) and now that's interesting (the connection?)
What does the sorting hat really know? How does it know this stuff, is it just from being in Dumbledore's office? And were did it come from, i mean well i'm not sure what i mean. but any and all thoughts are welcome.
Hello amber, welcome to the forums!! 
I do hope you've taken the time to read through the forums rules here since you're a new member. If you haven't, best you do unless you want to be nagged at by one of us mods which I'm sure you don't...
This thread is actually in the wrong section. The Department of Mysteries section is for threads pertaining to anything within the DoM. Your thread should have really been posted in the Books section under the General forum as it doesn't refer to any specific book. I'll let you off this time and move it for you but please be more careful when posting new threads where you post them okay?!
If you need any further assistance, feel free to contact me or one of the other mods aight...we're here to help!!
I do hope you've taken the time to read through the forums rules here since you're a new member. If you haven't, best you do unless you want to be nagged at by one of us mods which I'm sure you don't...
This thread is actually in the wrong section. The Department of Mysteries section is for threads pertaining to anything within the DoM. Your thread should have really been posted in the Books section under the General forum as it doesn't refer to any specific book. I'll let you off this time and move it for you but please be more careful when posting new threads where you post them okay?!
If you need any further assistance, feel free to contact me or one of the other mods aight...we're here to help!!
I think that the Sorting Hat came from Dumbledore himself. I think that just maybe, it's his old hat, like from when he was in school or something.
As for how it knows what it does, maybe Dumbledore bewitched it to come alive, and planted a brain inside it or someway of making it able to think and deciede.
As for how it knows what it does, maybe Dumbledore bewitched it to come alive, and planted a brain inside it or someway of making it able to think and deciede.
I think the sorting hat says where it's from during the first song, if I'm not mistaken. He sings something about wondering how to sort the students when the founders were dead, so Godric Gryffindor whipped him [the sorting hat] of his [GG] head and put some brains in me so I could choose instead. <grins> Hope that helps.
oh, right. I remember that now. Gah, i'm stupid. I should've remembered!
Thanks Quality Quidditch Suplies!
Thanks Quality Quidditch Suplies!
It is for sure Godric Gryffindor's hat.
As for how it knows all this stuff, it does live in Dumbledores office and a lot goes on here. There are pictures that go and come from different locations and there are many meetings here. I think it just over hears conversation and picks up on whats going on.
As for how it knows all this stuff, it does live in Dumbledores office and a lot goes on here. There are pictures that go and come from different locations and there are many meetings here. I think it just over hears conversation and picks up on whats going on.
But we've also got to remeber that it's been in that office ever since the first Headmaster/Headmistress so it's overheard everything thats gone on ther for the last 850 years or so.
| QUOTE (amber200587 @ May 5 2005, 08:50 PM) |
| What does the sorting hat really know? How does it know this stuff, is it just from being in Dumbledore's office? And were did it come from, i mean well i'm not sure what i mean. but any and all thoughts are welcome. |
Being in Dumbledore's office is something, for me. I think, if you're in his office, you'll hear the deepest secrets. And who knows? Maybe Dumbledore is talking to the hat.
^ Exactly, he would have heard all Harry's anual meetings with Dumbledore, all Dumbledore's secret meetings with snape, all the meetings between Dumbledore and Fudge, and every meeting Dumbledore has had with teachers, students, ect over his entire time as Headmaster.
The hat's been there since the beginning of the school, as one of yall pointed out, it was Godric's hat. The sorting hat knows a lot more than we probably think. I think he issued a warning right before Voldemort came to power the first time. Now that he's coming back 'greater and more terrible' than before, you'd think the hat would give us another warning, which it has, knowing or not knowing the prophecy. Whether Hogwarts will listen or not is an entire other theory ...
...
JKR has said that the Sorting Hat will take on a new role eventually. What are the odds that it's actually a transfigured crown that has been awaiting the arrival of a certain prince all these centuries?
Hmm...never thought about that. I don't think it's a crown, but it could help the 'prince' on knowing if something's right or not, and give him some advice..
The only thing I know the sorting hat knows is to know who's who, and try to unite them with others...like it tried to do in the fifth book. Like Ghost said, the sorting hat's always in Dumbledore's office (except for the sorting, of course ), so it must know everything that's happened in it...every word and such..
The only thing I know the sorting hat knows is to know who's who, and try to unite them with others...like it tried to do in the fifth book. Like Ghost said, the sorting hat's always in Dumbledore's office (except for the sorting, of course
), so it must know everything that's happened in it...every word and such..
Ghost has made a wonderful observation! I never really thought about it before. The same must go for a lot of the paintings in Dd office too, at least the older ones.
The hat possibly being a crown is an interesting idea too, therearethree, though I wonder why it has never been mentioned previously thet GG is royalty? I think it might have come to light in CoS if so, but then again, that might have given too much away?
Either way, the fact that the hat has a brain (given it by GG) must mean it has a wealth of knowlege, and I bet Dd has spoken to it a number of times. I didn't know Jk said the hat would take on a new role, can anyone second that?
Now I've got one more thing to theorize over!
The hat possibly being a crown is an interesting idea too, therearethree, though I wonder why it has never been mentioned previously thet GG is royalty? I think it might have come to light in CoS if so, but then again, that might have given too much away?
Either way, the fact that the hat has a brain (given it by GG) must mean it has a wealth of knowlege, and I bet Dd has spoken to it a number of times. I didn't know Jk said the hat would take on a new role, can anyone second that?
Now I've got one more thing to theorize over!
I too think that the hat will have something to do with the Half Blood Prince.
But another question that I would like to bring up is -how- the hat works. Obviously it was charmed...or something. But didn't Arthur Weasly said anything that thinks for itself is dark magic? The sorting hat thinks for itself, so therefor it is made with dark magic?
Or is this another instance (perhaps the same with the Maruderers map?) where Rowling makes an 'all powerful' magical object.
But another question that I would like to bring up is -how- the hat works. Obviously it was charmed...or something. But didn't Arthur Weasly said anything that thinks for itself is dark magic? The sorting hat thinks for itself, so therefor it is made with dark magic?
Or is this another instance (perhaps the same with the Maruderers map?) where Rowling makes an 'all powerful' magical object.
Searches your mind and decides.
MOD EDIT : One-liners are not permitted. You've been here long enough, you should know better. Make sure you elaborate more in your future posts.
MOD EDIT : One-liners are not permitted. You've been here long enough, you should know better. Make sure you elaborate more in your future posts.
I don't remember Arthur saying that anything that can think for it's self is dark magic. I do remember him saying to Ginny that she shouldn't trust anything that can think for it's self if you can't see where it keeps it's brain, but I think the Sorting hat is a special case.
Also I seriuly doubt that GG would have used dark magic for anything, let alone a hat that would be placed on quite literaly millions of untrained wizard's/witch's heads.
Also I seriuly doubt that GG would have used dark magic for anything, let alone a hat that would be placed on quite literaly millions of untrained wizard's/witch's heads.
I don't think the Sorting Hat chooses - I believe it lets you choose.
Seems like everyone winds up in the house they want to be in, doesn't it? While I've no doubt that the Hat can read minds, you'll notice that with Harry it basically talked to him and got him to think about his choice. I think it enjoyed playing with him, teasing him about possibly being put in Slytherin when it knew full well that Potter was hating the thought of being put there.
Most of the time, family members end up in the same house - probably because when the older siblings come home and talk about their grand time at school, they emphasize the exploits of their own houses. The Patil twins - since they are identical, they most likely wanted to be in their own house and not the same one so people wouldn't think of them as one person, or confuse them.
Seems like everyone winds up in the house they want to be in, doesn't it? While I've no doubt that the Hat can read minds, you'll notice that with Harry it basically talked to him and got him to think about his choice. I think it enjoyed playing with him, teasing him about possibly being put in Slytherin when it knew full well that Potter was hating the thought of being put there.
Most of the time, family members end up in the same house - probably because when the older siblings come home and talk about their grand time at school, they emphasize the exploits of their own houses. The Patil twins - since they are identical, they most likely wanted to be in their own house and not the same one so people wouldn't think of them as one person, or confuse them.
I'm curious as to the extent that things- the houses- are equalled by the sorting hat.
I mean, what if there were 100 students that year, 50 girls and 50 boys and 80 of them were considered 'loyal' above everything else? You couldn't have 80 new students go into one house and the other 20 divided by the other three right?
Gryffindore is the only house that we know the names of the all the boys. We know three of the girls in that year, and I've always assumed that there were another two. So I'm guessing that there'd be roughly the same amount of boys and girls going into each house each year, so as to keep them equal.
So in that sense, the hat must have some idea that there's a proportion of people already in a house or whatever.
Does that make sense?
I mean, what if there were 100 students that year, 50 girls and 50 boys and 80 of them were considered 'loyal' above everything else? You couldn't have 80 new students go into one house and the other 20 divided by the other three right?
Gryffindore is the only house that we know the names of the all the boys. We know three of the girls in that year, and I've always assumed that there were another two. So I'm guessing that there'd be roughly the same amount of boys and girls going into each house each year, so as to keep them equal.
So in that sense, the hat must have some idea that there's a proportion of people already in a house or whatever.
Does that make sense?
It probably has some kind of magic or enchantment that lets it look into the mind of the person and then tell by that in which house the person belongs. It knows the qualifications of each house and must base its decision on that.
I think there is some kind of enchantment on it. And I think it belonged to Godric Gryffindor.
Another member acromantula posted this in a thread that is now locked! continue the discussion 
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It doesn't seem like there's been a lot of discussion about the sorting hat, but it is one of the most interesting and powerfull magical objects in the series.
As the hat itself says, it's a "thinking hat", and it seems to be very inteligent. Does that mean it has a soul? It seems to be along the same general lines as a horcrux, except not evil and the soul is active. Most notably, the purpose is similar: The founders are able to live on through the hat.
If we hold that the hat has a soul, than that means the founders somehow created the soul. Very impressive stuff if it's true.
Of course, portraits seem to be able to think, so the same might have to apply to them. In that vein of thought, does anyone find it odd that Portraits seem to think, wheras photographs just do a set of predefined actions. How do people think this relates to the sorting hat?
What do you all think about our famously smart hat?
Cheers,
Acroman
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It doesn't seem like there's been a lot of discussion about the sorting hat, but it is one of the most interesting and powerfull magical objects in the series.
As the hat itself says, it's a "thinking hat", and it seems to be very inteligent. Does that mean it has a soul? It seems to be along the same general lines as a horcrux, except not evil and the soul is active. Most notably, the purpose is similar: The founders are able to live on through the hat.
If we hold that the hat has a soul, than that means the founders somehow created the soul. Very impressive stuff if it's true.
Of course, portraits seem to be able to think, so the same might have to apply to them. In that vein of thought, does anyone find it odd that Portraits seem to think, wheras photographs just do a set of predefined actions. How do people think this relates to the sorting hat?
What do you all think about our famously smart hat?
Cheers,
Acroman
whoops. Sorry about the double posting. I did a search on the sorting hat and didn't come up with anything.
Anyhow, if someone could find the JK quote where she says the hat will take on a new role, that would be awsome. I also never thought of the hat being a possible advisor to Harry.
Another interesting thought is this: what if much of the insight DD seemed to have came from the hat. Now that would be interesting!
Cheers,
Acroman
Anyhow, if someone could find the JK quote where she says the hat will take on a new role, that would be awsome. I also never thought of the hat being a possible advisor to Harry.
Another interesting thought is this: what if much of the insight DD seemed to have came from the hat. Now that would be interesting!
Cheers,
Acroman
OH, that's very interesting thread. I m pasting here, recent Interview of J K Rowling , It will help you figure out some more important clues of hat's role in 7th Novel.
ES: Has the sorting hat ever been wrong?
JKR: No.
ES: Really?
JKR: Mm-mm. Do you have a theory?
ES: I have heard a lot of theories.
JKR: [laugh] I bet you have. No. [laugh] Sorry.
MA: That's interesting, because that would suggest that the voice comes more from a person's own head than the hat itself -
JKR: [makes mysterious noise]
MA: And that maybe when it talks on its own it comes from -
JKR: The founders themselves.
MA: Yeah. Interesting. How much of a role are the founders going to play in book seven?
JKR: Some, as you probably have guessed from the end of six. There's so much that I want to ask you, but you're supposed to interview me, so come on. [Laughter.]
ES: Has the sorting hat ever been wrong?
JKR: No.
ES: Really?
JKR: Mm-mm. Do you have a theory?
ES: I have heard a lot of theories.
JKR: [laugh] I bet you have. No. [laugh] Sorry.
MA: That's interesting, because that would suggest that the voice comes more from a person's own head than the hat itself -
JKR: [makes mysterious noise]
MA: And that maybe when it talks on its own it comes from -
JKR: The founders themselves.
MA: Yeah. Interesting. How much of a role are the founders going to play in book seven?
JKR: Some, as you probably have guessed from the end of six. There's so much that I want to ask you, but you're supposed to interview me, so come on. [Laughter.]
Why is Hermione in Gryffindor? It seems that she'd be in Ravenclaw or Hufflepuff. I know if you ask the sorting hat to put you in Gryffindor, it will. BUt i don't remember Hermione asking it to.
A little late reply but anyways, I guess Courage and Bravery falls of Smarts and talent I guess. So there is your answer.
I am pretty sure that it has the abiility to read minds and befor e the founders separated they told it what they wanted for there stundents and now it knows how to sort
sorry if it doesnt make any sense
*Fleur*
sorry if it doesnt make any sense
*Fleur*
i think it mentions how in one of the sorting hats songs but i cant be tottally sure i will find it and report back 
i really thin k that it chooses them based on what they want because it contapleated on harry if he should be in slyerhin but when harry said not slyherin not slyherin he got grffin
seachell
seachell
we all know that the sorting hat belonged to godric gryffindor...but in the first year it also says in its song that the other founders filled it with information to help choose students...and we know harry pulled out godric's sword...
what if the other founders filled it with more than just information to help it choose the students houses...what about personal information...maybe the hat holds the key to were the deathly hallows is...if it is indeed somewere in the school..or does it hold some other secrect?.
another quick note..what if other headmasters put some information into it also (dumbledore)..if the founders could do it why not dumbledore.
what if the other founders filled it with more than just information to help it choose the students houses...what about personal information...maybe the hat holds the key to were the deathly hallows is...if it is indeed somewere in the school..or does it hold some other secrect?.
another quick note..what if other headmasters put some information into it also (dumbledore)..if the founders could do it why not dumbledore.
i think that the sorting hat came from godric. u can pull the sword out of it. i think the reason it knows everthing is b/c it sits in dumbledores office listening to conversations dumbledore might have.
My opinion on Hermione:
I think that she could have been in Ravenclaw, but throughout the books she has used her smarts to augment her courage. A smart person could make the polyjuice potion, a person would have to be brave to take the potion and use it. I think that in her case her gryffindor qualities outweighed her cleverness...
I think that she could have been in Ravenclaw, but throughout the books she has used her smarts to augment her courage. A smart person could make the polyjuice potion, a person would have to be brave to take the potion and use it. I think that in her case her gryffindor qualities outweighed her cleverness...
in Cos, harry and dumbledore talked about how harry and riddle where alike! but harry was in gryffindor and riddle was in slytherin. harry chose to be in gryffindor! if you remember in SS when hary was wispering "not slytherin not slytherin".
I was just kinda wondering about this. Sometimes people change,so if someone was placed in one house and they change into the opposite.....what would happen?
I don't think they would get a re-sorting, I think they'd just have to live in the house they were in. I mean, depends what you're talking about. If it was a Gryffindor gone bad, they'd probably be expelled if they were bad enough.
I would presume that the hat is enchanted to use some form of Legilimency to determine what your beliefs are. Since it was created by the four founders it will have the knowledge of those houses contained within it to be able to choose who should go where depending on those qualities.
Yeah. Doesn't it say in one of his songs that Godric 'whipped him off his head' or something?
Obviously the Sorting hat is an incredibly powerful magical object and everything, but isn't it sometimes wrong. I mean, Snape was in Slytherin and it's clear he doesn't want to be there. But the Sorting hat didn't know that did he. I'm curious about what the Sorting Hat knows and doesn't. Maybe we'll find out more in the encyclopedia (hint hint JK!).
Obviously the Sorting hat is an incredibly powerful magical object and everything, but isn't it sometimes wrong. I mean, Snape was in Slytherin and it's clear he doesn't want to be there. But the Sorting hat didn't know that did he. I'm curious about what the Sorting Hat knows and doesn't. Maybe we'll find out more in the encyclopedia (hint hint JK!).
Snape didn't want to be sorted with Slytherin?! ok I guess I've missed a part... But I don't think he's a type for Gryffindor, maybe Ravenclaw. But the hat is always right, right? And if he can see everything in your head, does that mean that Snape was already able to use Occlumency or something?
My theory is that the Sorting Hat is the Horcrux of Salazar Slytherin.
One of Dumbledore's reasons for thinking the diary of Tom Riddle was a Horcrux was that it seemed a little too active for a memory. A mere memory, taking over poor Ginny? Unlikely.
Likewise, the Sorting Hat seems a little too alive for a mere animated rag. We know that magic can animate an inanimate object. We see examples with Inferi and the Hogwarts suits of armor. But with the Sorting Hat, we don't see an inanimate object carrying out a set of instructions. We see full blown sentience. A little too much for a mere hat, right?
Then comes it's remarkable longlivity. In book 7 we see the Sorting Hat burst into flames (Pages 732-733). Yet, later, (Page 758) Harry's son Albus tells him of his fears of being sorted into Slytherin by the Sorting Hat. This clearly implies that the Sorting Hat survived its' brush with Voldemort's magic. How could a mere hat survive that? Voldemort isn't exactly a Squib. His magic is one of the strongest in the Wizarding world. So how does a simple hat survive?
Unless, of course, it isn't a simple hat. Hermionie tells Ron and Harry (book 7, pages 103-104) that the only way to destroy a Horcrux is to destroy it beyond magical repair. Voldemort's flames wouldn't have been so damaging because the spirit of Salazar Slytherin inhabiied the hat. The hat would have been able to repair itself where otherwise it would have shriveled.
In the Goblet of Fire (Pg. 177) the hat says that the founders "Put some brains in me." Literally?
I think that the Hat isn't biased in favor of Slytherin because the other founders put spells on it to prevent that. I think that Salazar's spirit lives in the hat, but doesn't control it.
Think over it: how much do we really know about teh founders? Salazar Slytherin was certainly evil enough to make a Horcrux.
Well, that's my theory.
One of Dumbledore's reasons for thinking the diary of Tom Riddle was a Horcrux was that it seemed a little too active for a memory. A mere memory, taking over poor Ginny? Unlikely.
Likewise, the Sorting Hat seems a little too alive for a mere animated rag. We know that magic can animate an inanimate object. We see examples with Inferi and the Hogwarts suits of armor. But with the Sorting Hat, we don't see an inanimate object carrying out a set of instructions. We see full blown sentience. A little too much for a mere hat, right?
Then comes it's remarkable longlivity. In book 7 we see the Sorting Hat burst into flames (Pages 732-733). Yet, later, (Page 758) Harry's son Albus tells him of his fears of being sorted into Slytherin by the Sorting Hat. This clearly implies that the Sorting Hat survived its' brush with Voldemort's magic. How could a mere hat survive that? Voldemort isn't exactly a Squib. His magic is one of the strongest in the Wizarding world. So how does a simple hat survive?
Unless, of course, it isn't a simple hat. Hermionie tells Ron and Harry (book 7, pages 103-104) that the only way to destroy a Horcrux is to destroy it beyond magical repair. Voldemort's flames wouldn't have been so damaging because the spirit of Salazar Slytherin inhabiied the hat. The hat would have been able to repair itself where otherwise it would have shriveled.
In the Goblet of Fire (Pg. 177) the hat says that the founders "Put some brains in me." Literally?
I think that the Hat isn't biased in favor of Slytherin because the other founders put spells on it to prevent that. I think that Salazar's spirit lives in the hat, but doesn't control it.
Think over it: how much do we really know about teh founders? Salazar Slytherin was certainly evil enough to make a Horcrux.
Well, that's my theory.
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