DeanFinniganMalfoy,
Harry doesn't bully fellow students just because he can, as James did.
So the similarity to Hermione stopping Harry for helping Sirius to Lily stopping James for bullying Snape is almost nil, if not negative, because they are opposite.

Sorry to be a bit bold: Please check your facts before posting, because incorrect facts will disturb a good discussion and lead you to wrong conclusion.
Umbridge was let to the forest by Hermione alone. Harry was commanded to follow by Umbridge.
Harry faced Quirrell alone. Hermione was not with him at that time, because she went back to Ron's side. I believe this part is not a coincidence by Jo Rowling. She used it to hint the readers about Ron-Hermione pairing.
We have calculated the total time Harry spent with Hermione or Ron with Hermione, not the amount of pages, from all 5 series. Ron and Hermione spent more time without Harry, than Harry - Hermione without Ron. In OOP alone, we have a month in 12GP when Harry was not there yet, many evenings when Harry was with Umbridge, and untold times when Ron and Hermione did Prefect duties. Those Ron-Hermione time periods alone did not occupy many pages because Harry was not there to report for us. Through this time, Hermione didn't utter any regret that she couldn't be with Harry more and likewise with Harry to Hermione. In fact, Hermione was always worried to find Ron whenever she and Harry had a chance to be alone. Based on all these, wouldn't you agree that Hermione and Ron have a romantic relationship going on?

Hehe, this quote made me laugh. Harry, not imperceptive? I might give you that, but he's not especially perceptive, is he? Think about the time when they shrunk Hermiones teeth; he didn't notice anything until Ron said something. Or about his sudden realization that Ginny talks; it took him half a year to realize something was different, and that was a huge difference.

But anyways, I'm arguing a lost cause, because I agree with you. I don't put any faith in the arguments that somthing is already happening between R/Hr. Well, no, let me rephrase that. (We know 'something' is going on between the two, JK's quote.) Nothing official is going on; in other words, they haven't really told each other how they feel, but they're pretty sure of it. That's the way I view their interactions in the book.

do you Honestly think that Mrs. Weasley is going to let to raging hormonal teens sleep in the same room who are both opposite genders. I mean of course they would sleep in different rooms.

Well Hermione could have spent alot of time with Harry when Ron was at Quidditch practice now couldn't have she. (Wow...this argument has been done to death i am sorry!)


Now yes, we shouldn't be having a World War III over something as small as teen dating.

Not in the book.
Dumbledore's main concern is to protect Harry, so at the end of GOF he refused Mrs. Weasley's request to take Harry directly to the Burrow after the term ended. Dumbledore insisted Harry had to be at Privet Drive. Of course, the appearance of Dementors there forced Harry to be evacuated to 12GP.
Nothing in the book stated that Hermione went to 12GP because of her safety. It was suggested by some posters, but it's open for discussion. It's as valid as the suggestion that Hermione went there because she wanted to be with Ron.
The facts are:
- Hermione was asked to visit Krum, but she stayed with Ron, instead (either for love or for safety).
- Harry got the impression from their joint-letters, that the two had fun together (regardless their downplaying the fun by saying they had been "busy")
I disagree at your notion that if Ron and Hermione were in love, they should already share the same room. I don't think that's the culture depicted by Jo Rowling in her books. Jo Rowling pretty much follows more traditional romantic approach, indicated by little romantic touch and more subtle indications through words or gestures. No pairing in HP series did more than kissing in their Hogwarts years, based on the books.

I beg to differ in the notion of "zero indication". We see things differently. I see after one month in 12GP Ron and Hermione forming a natural front against Harry's rage as a couple: speaking on behalf of the other, completing each other's sentences and covering up for the other. We haven't seen this much in previous books.
And subsequently, we learn from Harry that Ron and Hermione were often whispering together while casting anxious looks at Harry (when Harry was present and observing, of course). We didn't read the same action ("whispering together often") done by Harry and Hermione anywhere in the OOP.

That's what Harry wants to believe: that the friends care for him. However, the facts are:
- we don't know what Ron and Hermione were talking about in private.
- we know that they are together without Harry a lot of times
- we know that they are getting more and more comfortable doing so, because the bickering has ceased after Christmas holiday.

I based my guess of the pairings from the evidence in Book 1 to 5. I don't like to wish the evidence to be found for the first time in Book 6. It's kind of wishful thinking. I have read some postings stressed that the evidence for Harry's love to Hermione will be shown in Book 6 or 7. IMO those postings are not supporting H/Hr, but more "wishing H/Hr". I respect the wishes, but it should not be used in this evidence-based thread.
If indeed there are facts in Book 6, I will be glad to discuss about those, after reading HBP.

At this point (before HBP is released), there is no absolute certainty who is going to be with whom. I believe it will only be resolved in Book 7, although we may get very strong hints in Book 6.

At this point, imagination can still run wide: even A is going out with B now, they may still break up in the future.
What about time turners? Some characters can go back in time and have alternate pairings. So in parallel universe, they have different spouses.
Therefore, I suggest we don't take our own guessing too seriously. Like many fictions with living authors, the safe-bet of a pairing can only be made when we read the inscription on their graves (with "the loving husband of" or "the loving wife of"). Before that, the living authors can succumb to temptation anytime to alter the lifepath of the main characters (for example, Cinderella may divorce her prince, and marry a common peasant in the future).

I agree with Sethas suggestions not to treat this thread like a battlefield.
I have some reservations about the interviews, though. Many of them are worth considering, especially for the main plot (non-romantic parts).
Jo Rowling cannot possibly include all information in the books. She supplied them through her interviews and website and other ways outside the books.

Sethas is absolutely right that "love" is the key to defeat Voldemort. I believe this "love" transcends through and above romantic love. It's the supreme love: unconditional, sacrificial love. If this love is given by a girl to a boy, it may include some romantic aspects in it. The main point is: she is willing to die for the boy, even if that means she is never with him as a couple in her lifetime; if that means she is "languishing in love" all her life.

This post has been edited by muggleview
QQS, Ravenmist and Sethas have posted before I finished typing, so I didn't see their postings. Pretty much agree with QQS and Ravenmist.
Just want to add one more possibility to Sethas's posting:

Actually the book has a support for this. In OOP Ch 4, Mrs. Weasley told Harry that Ron and Hermione were in a room upstairs. Harry found the room was a gloomy bedroom with high ceiling. Ron and Hermione were there alone for some time. Thus, they have their private time, with the approval of the adults, before the bedtime.
Now for more intense making outs, if they can elude Mrs. Weasley, Ginny and the Twins, what make you think they cannot elude Harry?
The fact, that Harry doesn't witness any, doesn't automatically mean they didn't do it. They may have done it behind everybody's back, just like Percy and Penelope (until Ginny walking in on them kissing in an empty classroom). We cannot exclude this possibility at this time.

Harry was not out of control all the time in OOP. He is not a psycho. He is a teenager with emotional problem. During the dinner, Harry was subdued and since then, he behave amicably towards Ron and Hermione. Your portrayal of Harry is of someone who can explode anytime you touch it. A person like that should not be left in the open. Harry is not like that.
Back to the point: Harry has problem. Ron is worried. Hermione is worried. Ron talked to Harry because they are roommate. Ron talked to Hermione, but we missed Harry talked to Hermione without Ron at 12GP.
Thinking backwardly: Harry felt uneasy emotionally, because he felt alone and saw the two friends have closer relationship with each other than each of them with him.
All of these premises from the books show that Ron and Hermione's relationship has different style than each of them with Harry, and this style has romantic tone because of the privacy, tension, and protective natures.

It's not a secret love. It's a private one. Ron and Hermione do not feel they have to show demonstratively to the world yet, so we didn't witness any demonstrative gestures. Since book 1, they met privately and did something behind Harry's back. It's their private lives. They do not serve Harry 24 hours a day. They have their own private communication that doesn't concern Harry. Once I read that, I realize that Ron and Hermione treated each other as a potential lover than just a friend, as Harry treats each of them. Did Ron hide it from Harry? No. How else do we know that Ron has a romantic feeling to Hermione? Ron showed it to Harry and Harry picked it up and told the readers that Ron likes Hermione romantically.

I see that Hermione didn't show Harry at all that she likes him romantically. We don't see her whispering to Harry or having private meeting with him. Whenever she was alone with Harry, it was out of necessity (in POA, to save Buckbeak and Sirius while Ron is incapacitated, in GOF to make Harry and Ron friends again, in OOP, Umbridge or Hagrid forced her to go with Harry).
One significant thing to understand is Hermione didn't show Harry enough that she likes Ron. First reason: Harry is too think to know, as he couldn't pick up Cho's signs to him anyway. Second reason: Hermione is careful to direct her intention only to Ron. If we can see the conversation without presumption, we see that in the trio, Hermione and Ron dominated the conversation, with Harry as a bystander. However, in OOP Harry witnessed Hermione's odd expression to Ron, Hermione's peculiarly nasty personal insults to Ron, Hermione's annoyance when Harry broke her bickering with Ron, Hermione's unhappy grumbles when Harry sat himself between Hermione and Ron, Hermione's natural way to drag Ron above the elbow, and Hermione's kiss (which is literary written. I don't like to speculate on any "-"). Is it enough to satisfy our hunger for proofs? May be not. But it doesn't change the facts that they exists between Ron and Hermione, not between Harry and Hermione.

This was off topic, so I separated from the above part. Please check your calculation on "most of the time". Ron only practiced intensively and in secret to get to the team, right after Angelina announced the need for a keeper. Once Ron was in the team, his training schedule was known to Hermione. She even remembered it better than Ron himself, when she arranged Ron's weekly learning schedule for OWLs. With all activities, Hermione had her own private time to study as well and peculiarly she didn't share much private time with Harry who was not in the team.
I see that you are still prejudiced what a pair of lovers will do when they are alone. In most conservative countries, for example Italia, dating is witnessed by many people. I couldn't forget Michael Corleone's date with the Italian girl in Sicily in "Godfather", where they walked together followed closely by a bunch of ladies and children. What can do in that date? Talking. No hand holding, except one intentional slight tumble. No kissing. Until they exchange the vows.
I can assure you that tradition still exists in many parts of the world. Jo Rowling took a conservative stand in her dating scenes.
Harry thought too long and missed the chance to hold Cho's hand on his first (Valentine's) date at the restaurant. Do you think Ron can be bolder than Harry?

You still have time to finish rereading OOP, because if you do so, you may notice that after chapter 23, Ron and Hermione didn't do anymore what you thought they were still doing. Once you kept yourself up-to-date, it's more fun to enjoy HBP, I think.

This I find highly ludicrous. Harry felt uncomfortable because he was finally back with his friends after being unable to talk to them (as per dumbledore's orders) for so long and not knowing what was going on and he didn't know how to react to being cut off from what was important to him. He reacted by -exploding- in a burst of anger that may or may not have been entirely his own.

This has nothing to do with any romance, private or not. It has everything to do with the fact that Voldemort's emotions have been assailing him all summer (as judged by the often amounts of times his scar hurts even though Voldemort can't touch Harry at the Dursleys) as well as the feelings of being ostracised by the only society he feels even remotely a part of. His own Godfather is telling him to do nothing, Sirius who is the biggest wildcard of all. His instincts and emotions are being repressed by the commands of his elders and here his -best friends- are off with the Order, Ginny, Gred and Forge (who can make anything into a fun time) and he is stuck alone.

As for Hermione's attitude, I do not see a single kiss as a sign of romance and if it was a sign of some common romance, Ron would be USED to it. Not absolutely stunned not knowing where it came from. This is the biggest piece of evidence supporting that absolutely NOTHING happened at any point prior. If there was any 'Romance' then Ron surely would not be absolutely -stunned- by a kiss on the cheek. Now to address a last point.

All I have to say to this is:

Personal attacks are not wanted nor necessary here. People should not have to try and defend themselves or even read such blatant falsehoods when it's directed at them. You are not the sole purveyor of Harry Potter and you do not automatically interpret everything correctly. I have read all the books several times including OoTP. This entire comment of yours was in VERY poor form and definately not in the spirit of a debate thread.

Thank you.

Hmmm. This is an important point.

Well…in all fairness, I’d find it hard to disagree with this statement seeing that I (along with other posters) have already levelled it against H/Hr in the previous debate thread…. Yes. We do see Hermione chasing after Harry, taking an open interest in Harry, supporting Harry and inquiring about him far more often than he does her. I also agree that this is a potential weakness for H/Hr - Harry’s apparent lack of interest in Hermione, as compared to her avid interest in him. She helps him with various spells etc. How often (if ever) do we see him return the favour?

I like Harry, but I do think that he tends towards being self-centred and seemingly incurious about others at times. Yes, Harry has yet to express any interest in Hermione’s background or parents. It’s not just Hermione however. Look for example at the way that he berates himself when he discovers the truth about Neville’s parents. He admits to himself that he never even thought over all the years that he had known Neville to actually wonder or ask about why he lived with his grandparents.

However, I don’t think that this ‘self-centredness’ is incomprehensible given Harry’s unique set of circumstances and his lack of interaction with peers his own age. Until he gets his Hogwarts letter, Harry doesn’t have friends whose parents he would inquire about. His isolated upbringing, combined with the fact that he is in mortal peril every other day, would give him a certain degree of, shall we say reticence, and tunnel-vision? He has to focus on himself and his situation if he wants to stay alive.

And as someone who comes from a less-than-idyllic family background, it’s hardly shocking that Harry doesn’t tend to delve into or even query about other people’s backgrounds or families.… Harry, who, so often has to fend off curiosity and prying about his own family, and has to defend his own personal privacy seems to me to be the least likely person to be inquisitive in someone else‘s affairs, unless he was expressly invited to be. Hermione never discusses her parents and they have been so obviously sidelined in the story thus far, that I don’t see either Ron or Harry (or anyone else for that matter) ever asking after her parents or attempting to discuss them with her, so… what of it?

While Harry doesn’t express his interest in Hermione in the exact same way that Hermione expresses her interest in/concern for him, that isn’t to say that Harry doesn’t have a real interest in Hermione or that he doesn‘t care about her. I think that there is more than one way to express an interest in someone. For one thing, he maintains an extreme awareness of where Hermione (physically) is. Even as far back as PS, when Hermione runs away in a flood of tears over Ron’s insults, Harry is the one who makes a point of taking note of exactly where she has gone. It is also Harry, and not Ron who expresses concern, takes responsibility for her distress, and actually decides to go after her. Harry - not Ron.

In POA, many R/Hr shippers point to the fact that Ron is curious about Hermione’s whereabouts and her mysterious disappearances/reappearances as evidence that he has an active interest in her - unlike Harry. What most fail to note is that Harry is no less aware of Hermione’s disappearances than Ron!

Earlier in the book, it is actually Harry (and not Ron!) who is the first to point to Hermione‘s bulging bags (p. 47, PoA), and then (humorously) note that Hermione might be taking on too much (“Are you planning to eat or sleep this year, Hermione?’ p. 47, PoA). In light of this, I find it odd that it is Ron who is credited with being the observant, and interested party in this scenario who eventuallt 'deduces' that something is going on, while oblivious uncaring Harry notices nothing. Harry (who has been proven time and again to have superior powers of deduction to Ron) clearly notices the screamingly obvious, but - has the good sense to stay silent for the most part. He doesn’t get on Hermione’s wick about it with constant prying and puzzling aloud, the way that Ron does. Yet at the same time, he’s not afraid to level a direct question at her about the matter.

One of the key differences in their approach to the situation is that Harry displays greater tact and sensitivity than Ron who merely wants “in” on the secret. (There's a difference between curiousity and and actual concern.) Ron is coming from a place of curiosity and simply wants to know what’s going on. He’s not thinking about what effect her mysterious timetable might be having on her. All he notices is that it makes her short-tempered, which in turn makes life more uncomfortable for him. But again, it is left to Harry to display actual concern for Hermione herself. He puts her well-being ahead of the actual secret. He notices that she looks tired (not unlike Professor Lupin), and that there are dark circle beneath her eyes etc. He also tries to talk to her, instead of just trying to find out her private business to satisfy his curiousity.

Another important difference is that (unlike Ron) he realises that he is not going to be able to badger the answer out of her, and that it is up to her whether or not she chooses to tell them what is going on:

I think that part of the reason Hermione merely evades Harry’s question rather than snapping at him, or biting his head off is because he’s respectful. He doesn’t try to push his way into what she clearly doesn’t care to discuss. He gives her a private space. Furthermore, he doesn’t inadvertently insult her the way that Ron does, who constantly implies that she is mistaken with her timetable, doesn’t know what she is doing, or is ‘cracking‘ up. In one short sentence Harry manages to convey that he is not only fully aware that *something* is going on with her, but that he is also aware that she is consciously withholding information. He doesn’t bring her competence into question - nor does he come across as merely inquisitive.

We also know that Harry certainly has a great deal of interest in what Hermione thinks on any given issue, and that he values her opinion more highly than anyone else’s, perhaps even Dumbledore. More and more, her opinion is becoming a guide for Harry - whether he takes it on board or deliberately chooses to react against it (and his own better judgement), he now constantly takes her opinions, judgement and ideas into consideration. When you care about how someone is and what they think? I don't think that that qualifies as 'disinterest'.

Muggleview wrote:

….as if OotP alone, or the handful of serious arguments that Harry and Hermione have ever had encapsulates the entirety of H/Hrs relationship! Across the series, Harry and Hermione have always communicated far better than Ron and Hermione ever have. I've never claimed that they “never, ever argue", but - it can’t be denied that through most of the series, most of the time Harry and Hermione can talk to each other in a reasonable, straightforward way. There are far more examples of peaceful communication between them than arguing, whereas I don't think I have enough fingers and toes to account for all the times that Ron and Hermione are bickering.

To think otherwise is ‘wishful thinking.’ Singling out one book in the entire series and then narrowly focusing on the worst argument that they’ve ever had as representing their entire relationship, proves….?

Much more than you might think, actually. Contrary to most R/H shippers who view the infamous DoM argument as ‘proving’ that H/Hr "can’t communicate", I see the complete opposite. I see that even when they are at their angriest, most panic-stricken (in Harry’s case), most resolute (in Hermione’s case), fiercest, most argumentative and emotional - they still work at communicating. They don’t give up on each other. Harry could just as easily have walked out on Hermione but he didn’t. She could have just as easily have given up, or treated him like Neville in PS (remember when she puts the ‘petrificus totalus’ jinx on him to stop him in his tracks?) Nor does she simply deliver a parting shot and storm off (as she did with Ron at the Yule Ball in TGoF.) Instead they do the difficult thing - stand toe-to-toe and negotiate like young adults.

They stay engaged, obviously because it is important to them that the other one understands where they are coming from. They care what the other one thinks. Her approval and support is vital to him - enough for him to want to physically shake out of her what she (unlike everyone else) won‘t meekly hand over to him. Despite the urgency of the situation, he still needs to think that he is doing the right thing - and only Hermione's assent can confirm that for him. He obviously doesn’t want to act without her, despite asserting that he will ‘act alone’. And while she clearly disagrees, she still wants to be involved in what he does, come what may. She won’t let him do it on his own despite her misgivings. Why? Because they’re a team.

They keep talking despite the anger (and distractions). Yes - that’s often the way that adults argue about extremely serious issues that are critical. It gets heated, it gets passionate and it can be a little scary. But if you are going to go to all the effort and trouble of arguing over something incredibly important - then yes, that is how (adults) argue. Ron was sidelined, not because he was attempting to ‘support Hermione’ as some R/Hr shippers have asserted, but because he was completely out of his depth. (After all, this was very different territory from the shallow, grade-school quality of so much of Ron and Hermione’s back and-forth bickering ‘I-disarmed-you! Well-I-disarmed-you-more-times-than-you-disarmed-me’ etc.)

As for this statement (which seems to have gained acceptance in this thread):

*jaw drops* What? It’s like we’re reading a different series. Don’t see much hope of ‘reconciliation’ of our different views either!

- The Yule Ball. Hermione ‘started’ that?
- The ongoing riling about ‘Vicky’. Is Hermione the initiator here?
- Look at CoS and PoA. There are myriads of instances where Ron is taking shots at or making criticism of her love of studying and reading, obviously fishing for a reaction.

In fact here’s an example where both Harry and Ron are teasing Hermione, while Ron is trying to get a rise out of her:

- Ron persists in trying to figure out her timetable in POA, never mind that she makes it expressly clear that it is none of his business then snaps at him on several occasions. (It’s interesting that Ron’s persistence doesn’t make him a ‘nag’ in the eyes of many readers and shows that he is 'concerned', while Hermione's persistence about Harry's Occlumency lessons makes her a nagging woman. Good old gender double standards... *sighs*)

- Ron teases her about what her boggart might possibly be etc.
- Ron’s attitude towards SPEW. Ron is always ridiculing SPEW and passing judgement on it without invitation. Who is provoking who there? It’s not as if Hermione invented SPEW with Ron in mind, or as if she takes her (immature, but well-meaning) stances on the issue to ‘bicker’ with him. The ‘bickering’ occurs more often than not, when she reacts to his criticism.

That’s the dynamic - Hermione reacts (which could be a good thing or a bad thing depending on what side of the shipping debate you sit, right? ) Clearly, it’s undeniable. But how can the person who (usually) reacts, then be said to be the ‘instigator‘? Logically, that doesn’t follow. (There may be isolated instances where Hermione initiates an argument with Ron? But, I’ll be willing to wager that the instances where Ron attempts to provoke/tease Hermione are far more numerous.)

- At the DA club, they begin bickering after Ron brags about disarming Hermione. She in turn is none-too-pleased by the possibility of being ‘bested’ by Ron. She reacts once again and (childishly) tries to assert her superiority over him. It’s also clear that there is a competitive dynamic between them where one wants to outdo the other. How their desire to compete against each other, and be ’better’ than the other one, contributes to the scenario of future domestic bliss that Muggleview and other R/Hr shippers often portray I can’t say. But, I can compare it to this:

Harry recognises her ability and simply thinks so highly of it that he automatically assumes that she is “better than him“. Even when Hermione saves them all during their dungeon trawl, Ron cannot acknowledge this and chooses instead to focus on her error (freezing) while conveniently overlooking the fact that they were all alive thanks to her. Harry at least, can acknowledge the truth and give credit where it was due.

With Harry, it’s different. He feels no resentment or desire to ‘beat’ her. They're not in a competition. Hermione in turn, obviously respects his ability, identifies important qualities in him that she rates more highly than her own, and thinks that he is “better than her” - a first for Hermione probably. It’s the only time when she openly and simply acknowledges someone else’s superiority. (Again, this is very different to Ron’ later disbelief over Hermione’s ability to get a date, or Hermione’s disbelief over Ron being named a prefect. Neither display ‘mutual respect’ for the other from what I‘ve read.) Funnily enough, this dynamic of mutual admiration and respect between Harry and Hermione is established right from the very first book in the series, and throughout their adventure through the trapdoor, when they mutually praise each other whenever one does something well.

While it is clearly not an example of 'shipping evidence' seeing that they are mere children, I have always felt that this is one of the most important instances in the series. What it does is establish who they are as people and it lays the groundwork for their respective relationships. (And frankly, Harry/Hermione seem more mature at 11 than Ron and Hermione are at 15!)

This dynamic of mutual admiration and respect continues right the way through the series from the first to the fifth book. Even during the tense and dangerous DoM raid (with all of the arguing that preceded it) Harry and Hermione still shore each up and note each other's efforts. Harry praises Hermione. Hermione in turn, is the middle of praising Harry no less, when she is struck down (p. 698, OotP.)
Moving on…

QQS wrote:

QQS - maybe I’m the one that is not being clear in my posts, but I have always maintained that Ron and Hermione represent fundamentally different value systems and that they seriously clash on a fundamental level (which is why I believe that they are incompatible!) It’s probably unorthodox to quote yourself from an earlier post but I recall that I did say in this thread that:

I had hoped that it would be clear enough but okay….

While Hermione’s approach to social justice in the form of SPEW is simplistic, naïve, patronising and problematic - she is nevertheless (more) on the right track about one of the novel’s more serious issues as confirmed by none other than Dumbledore at the end of OotP. We all know perfectly well what Ron’s (starkly contrasting) views on the matter are….If Ron merely limited his criticism towards Hermione’s somewhat coercive, deceptive and dubious methods of activism (and had a better approach in mind)? He wouldn’t be wrong!

But we also know from Book 4 onwards, that Ron simply doesn’t see elves, giants etc. as being on equal footing with human beings and is unable to perceive any inherent problem with their lesser legal status or subsequent persecution. He is completely unperturbed by the inequality of it.

The differences that lie between them are serious - but the way in which they choose to deal with these differences - or rather, not deal with them is trifling. They don’t approach these things in a head on or serious fashion, and instead focus on arguing about trivia (- warring pets, who disarmed who more times, Krum etc.) In fact it’s rather noteworthy that we never see Ron and Hermione really discuss the big issues (as opposed to Harry and Hermione.) In fact, we never see Ron and Hermione actually discussing anything! Ron reduces SPEW to the level of a joke, so there is no real discussion or genuinely cogent debate that takes place over it. They never argue (i.e. thrash out and really reason through) anything seriously. Instead they bicker, pick and bicker some more over minor things, while skirting around major issues by applying trivial treatment to them.

The potential to go deep is evident, yet they steer clear of deeper waters - because they have probably already established that they cannot agree on the things that matter, so why go there? These serious differences however, are overlaid by superficial bickering. Right or wrong, I hope I've clarified my view on the matter.

QQS wrote:

Which is why there is a good possibility that the narrative may stay at the level of a 10-14 year old with Ron and Hermione predictably being paired off. But keep in mind that that the original 10-14 year old audience that Rowling was writing for - have gotten a few years older and have grown up with the series. Consequently, Rowling will have to keep pace with her audience. I think that the narrative has actually moved on from this level. It’s a bit more complicated now. Also, note that even the trio are no longer 14 year olds anymore! Part of the “catch-all” charm of the series is that while it is accessible to younger readers, it also contains sufficient layers, subtext (and research) to keep older readers such as myself sufficiently interested.

So far Ron is the only one asked about Hermione's parents, in SS. That's how we know her parents are dentists.

What points to R/Hr is: Harry was always late in noticing Hermione's disappearances. Harry was aware after Ron asked where Hermione was.
The fact that Ron had initiative to ask Ernie about Hermione before telling Harry about it showed that Ron was thinking more about Hermione than Harry. For the record: I believe Harry also cares about Hermione, otherwise the disappearances would not be written in the books. Harry regards Hermione as his best friend as well, but the level of awareness is less than Ron, in case of the disappearances.

We don't know whether Ron has commented about it earlier. There is 50% chance Ron asked that already when he saw her buying so many books. It is also possible that Ron was helping carrying the books as he sometimes did at school. The last question "How about a nice book" from Ron when Hermione was thinking what to buy for her early birthday present, indicates Ron more or less overwhelmed by the amount of books Hermione bought. Thus, we heard Harry's comment, but we don't know about Ron's. Judging Ron's behaviour, I guess he couldn't help popping questions similar to Harry's right when Hermione was at the bookstore with him.

This is one side of the coin. The other side says that Harry doesn't care enough. We don't know which one is prevalent.
In similar situation, I can say that I don't ask "how are you" to you, because actually I respect you or care you a lot, I don't want to invade your privacy, I don't want to insult your physical condition if you have any problem with it. Or, it's because I don't care enough about you.
I hope you think I thought of the previous one.
Again, my opinion that Ron cares more about Hermione, is based on the frequency he asked her or about her, and the initiative he took to find the answer even when he and she were in hostile state. The way he asked may not be the right one, but his thoughts count a lot.
There is a significant question I note from the whole thing. Hermione asked "What is it to you that I had more lessons" (POA). Ron didn't answer this. POA is not the time where Ron understands his feeling to Hermione. He may not understand why he has to pay attention so much to Hermione. It's not on his mind to have a girlfriend. He hasn't noticed Hermione as a girl. But Hermione noticed it and asked the question. Ron has behaved too focused on her privacy more than a usual friend does.
In my opinion, this is the sign to Hermione that Ron is attracted to her, even Ron doesn't think it that way yet. This IMO serves as the basis of Hermione's break down on Ron's shoulder later in POA.

I am glad we agree on this. I want so much to emphasize this.
Harry and Hermione can work together very well. They can complement each other to get things done. That's a good basis for a professional teamwork. They are good as a team. Our disagreement is that the teamwork spirit is not continued to the romantic level. Until OOP, Harry is not attracted romantically to Hermione. I see that Hermione is not attracted romantically to Harry, either. Hermione's interest to Harry is as a best friend, whereas to Ron as a romantic partner. The same thing happens to Harry. In a few days we will have more information to confirm or reject this opinion. I won't say that's proven 100% at this point.

In the whole Yule Ball starting with Chapter 22 to find a date, Hermione started it by attacking Ron for his requirement of a Yule Ball date. The Yule Ball bantering and "Vicky" were the follow-up of the whole "tension" from both sides. Hermione was not someone to give up on arguments easily, but in the whole Yule Ball scene, she backed up from her arguments with Ron 3 times. Something is overwhelmed her, so she couldn't keep her stand. Some H/Hr supporter said that she was too disgusted by Ron's statements. Strong word "disgusted", but I think it's not far off: Hermione took it too personally. Twice previously Hermione ran off crying due to Ron's statements: in SS and in POA. It's always Ron's statements that drove Hermione away from arguments.
Back to the our topic:
Hermione was not shy to speak out her opinion to others. If the other party reacts, bickering will occur. The majority of the people avoids to engage Hermione, so no bickering occured. However, Ron stood up and bickered with her. With her readiness to say her opinions, Hermione was often the initiator of the arguments.
In OOP, she initated the one related to Cho and Snape. Ron was not free of guilt, because he frequently teased her. He said Hermione "know-it-all" more than other students, but when Hermione didn't want to engage (with sharp look etc.) Ron knows how to close his mouth.
Bickering will not occur. Likewise with Hermione to Ron. Thus, in the term after the Christmas holiday, both are better in controlling their mouths and thus we don't see bickering anymore.
I think I have addressed your examples collectively. I want to point one example in OOP where Hermione is actually keeping a bickering point intentionally. When luring out Harry from Buckbeak room in 12GP, Hermione said that she didn't like skiing, but warned Harry not to tell Ron about this "because he laughed a lot at it". Being laughed at is not pleasant, but Hermione intentionally kept this topic open to start a future "discussion". I think she really enjoys bickering with Ron.

I commend QQS's statement below.

That's what I have been trying to say. Some people fail to see that other than dating, there can be "private meetings" without getting physical. Just being together, talking, sorting out differences, can be sufficient for the time being, if both parties are seriously aimed for a deeply considered relationship, not a hormon-driven one.

I don’t have the US version, but I’m sure it’s the same in the PS version. I definitely stand corrected. But ( - and you just know that there’s got to be a ‘but’ - ) to me, this example just confirms what the earlier and later books tell me about Ron - that, he is curious and not afraid to ask personal questions - yet, once his initial curiosity is satiated and he gets the information that he wants it seems that he quickly loses interest in a situation. It doesn’t seem like a sustained or particularly deep interest to me. It also seems that Ron’s curiosity would be an ideal vehicle through which to convey this type of detail to the reader. As I said, Harry just doesn’t seem to be the type of person to ask this kind of question - enter Ron.

I could be wrong (once again) but once Ron’s question is answered does he ever express any further interest in her parents? (This is an open question to anyone.)

If not, then this actually parallels nicely with what takes place in PoA….

Now this, I find genuinely interesting. I do agree with you that they all care for each other. What some of us seem to be debating about is perceived degrees of caring or intensity. There does seem to be an assumption that because Ron reacts more visibly than Harry and is certainly more vocal in his efforts to discover her secret that it is evidence that he cares ‘more’ than Harry does. (Louder=intensity) To me however, it is not a debate about whether Ron or Harry cares more, but about how each boy expresses their concern, how Hermione reacts to their concern, what effect it has on her, and, most importantly, what is their overriding concern (i.e. is it Hermione herself, or is it the fact that she has a secret?)

To reiterate - Harry is the first to notice that Hermione is overloaded with books, and the first to imply that she might be taking on too much. He deduces this simply by being observant. Ron reaffirms Harry’s initial impression, through his later reaction in the dining hall to her insane timetable. How does Ron deduce this? Why, by looking over Hermione’s shoulder and reading her timetable as you naturally would.

At this stage, both boys have noticed something.

What interests me is that their approach is so different. I am not going to suggest that one approach shows greater interest or deeper caring than the other. What I will say though is that one approach is more subtle or ‘indifferent’ - while the other is more direct or ‘intrusive’ - depending on which side of the shipping debate you stand on.

When Harry makes his observation, Hermione has room to manuvoure and has the opportunity to evade it without having to resort to aggression. With Ron however, Hermione more or less tells him to mind his own business, partly because the only way that he comes by similar information, is not through quiet observation but by literally peering over her shoulder - something which, she seems none-too-appreciative of. Yes, Ron is interested and cares, but the way in which he expresses this doesn’t seem to go down too well with her, and actually seems to irritate her. It’s all about the approach rather than just the intent behind it. Meaning well, is not the same thing as doing well.

To me, PoA is a great book at establishing the differences in their character. While Harry does express interest in her bags of books etc. and what she is doing, unlike Ron, he is simply not the type to satiate his curiousity by reading over someone’s shoulder. He’d never come by information that way.

Ron spends a great deal of time puzzling over her timetable, because he familiarises himself with it. Again, some people would regard that as sweet, caring behaviour and a flattering expression of deep interest. Others though, might regard it as somewhat controlling and an overbearing way of keeping dibs on someone, especially since that ‘someone’ has made it pretty clear that a constant interest in her whereabouts and her schedule is decidedly unwelcome. What really matters however, is how Hermione perceives his behaviour and reacts to it. There is no evidence of her being flattered. But nor is it ever stated that she that she finds his behaviour ‘controlling’ either….

What we do see in the canon however, (and what is difficult to refute) is that she is constantly annoyed and that his inquisitiveness seems to stress her out even further - a fact which Ron is either oblivious to, or ignores.

He either doesn’t notice or doesn’t sufficiently care enough about what effect his persistence is having on her frayed nerves. Which leads to this question - what is more important to Ron? Finding out her secret (at any cost), or Hermione’s emotional/mental state? And who actually benefits if her secret is discovered - Hermione, or Ron? Please note, that I am not trying to say that Ron doesn’t care about Hermione - just that, it seems that he cares even more about finding out her secret and satisfying his own curiosity - enough so that he can doggedly continue to pursue something in a manner that is clearly upsetting her.

It's not his intention but his approach that seems to be problematic.

At any rate, because Ron has made himself privy to her timetable, it comes as no surprise that he is indeed, as you say, the first to notice a discrepancy in where Hermione is supposed to be as opposed to where she actually is. He knows when she is supposed to have Arithmancy while Harry (not having peered over her shoulder to find this out) - doesn’t. This doesn't indicate who cares ‘more’ about Hermione, but reveals what each boy’s personality is like! Obviously, Ron is more forward or ‘pushy’ (take your pick) than Harry is in this respect, but again - it just tells me about what Ron is like

However, when it comes to the actual physical disappearances/reappearances of Hermione in PoA, it’s not as if only Ron notices while it takes poor old Harry a while to cotton on to what is going on. When Hermione first vanishes after their potions class, Ron instantly notices that Hermione isn’t there because he has just asked her a question and no answer is forthcoming, causing him, then Harry to turn around. It’s not as if Ron had to tap Harry on the shoulder and explain to him that Hermione wasn’t there! Turning around when someone doesn’t answer you, well… it doesn’t require great reservoirs of interest or powers of deduction. While Ron is wondering aloud ‘where’ Hermione is, it is Harry interestingly enough, who first catches sight of her.

Now let’s look at Harry, who I agree certainly spends far less time trying to extract/nag information out of Hermione that she clearly isn’t willing to volunteer. In my view, This situation brought up issues of respect, of privacy, and persistence. When does curiosity start to border on just being plain pushy? Yes - being persistent is one
way to show that you care about someone - but maintaining a respectful (but observant) distance is yet another way to do this too. There is no inherent right or wrong in any of this. That issue only arises when situational context is applied. In some situations it is not only ‘okay’ to be persistent, but actually important. In others however, it is also important to know when (and how) to back off.

The issue again, is which approach does Hermione prefer? Which one, throughout the course of the novel does she respond to positively? Which behaviour falls in step with her actual personality and her needs? (Who, in all honesty thinks that by pestering her, that Ron was providing Hermione with something that she actually ‘needed’ in this instance?)

On the other hand, although he asks fewer questions, Harry, in my view manages to ask the key questions that actually count - the questions that Hermione actually needs, rather than the ones that he simply ‘wants’ to ask her and that satisfy his curiosity (a la Ron). Firstly, he acknowledges that the choice to answer or not is up to Hermione. Then he does the one thing that Ron never does - he notices that she is frazzled and worn. He doesn’t further wear her by prying but actually takes the time to talk to her and ask her how she is. (Dana covered this point in the first thread in a very good post.)

He is able to put his own curiosity aside for her sake. Her well-being comes first with Harry, while discovering the details of her secret takes a back seat. With Ron, although he cares, it seems to be the other way around, with a greater emphasis on his own curiosity than Hermione herself. Once Harry asks her how she is, Hermione relaxes and is even willing to talk about her subjects etc. - something that she is wholly unable to do with Ron.

Often, it is not an issue of intent so much, but an issue of how you express that intent. Sure, Ron expressed that he had an interest in Hermione, but did it do her any good or did it just add to her mounting stress and pressure? It’s like the difference between someone who calls you once a week to find out how you’re doing and someone who keeps ringing you every five seconds! Of course different people have different wants and needs. People have different styles of expressing themselves and showing that they care. However, some styles of caring suit some people more than others.

My assertion that Ron’s interest was coming from a more self-centred place is confirmed by Ron’s reaction once he finds out what the secret is:

Once Ron knows what the secret in question is, he expresses no further interest in her experience. He doesn't wonder over how Hermione coped or seem to want to know any further details. Instead, once the secret is divulged Ron’s attention is on his own sense of pique and even betrayal. His reaction is also highly in keeping with his character. Ron has a strong sense of loyalty and a fear of exclusion and betrayal. We see a similar reaction a book later, when he believes that Harry has put his name in the Goblet of Fire without telling him or including him in his plans.

In OotP, we also see Ron strong-arming Ginny about her love-life etc. on the Hogwarts train. It’s noteworthy that Hermione knows about Ginny’s dating etc. but chooses not to reveal any of this to Ron, precisely because she knows the type person he is, and sagely predicts that he would over-react. (Experience, perhaps?) Ron is very much the type of person who wants to know everything about the people that he cares about, which falls in with his notions of loyalty. Friends tell friends everything….unless they’re secretly practicing for the Quidditich team.

In all seriousness, there is absolutely nothing problematic about it, until you take Hermione’s character into consideration. If the books are anything to go by, it seems to me that Hermione values and even insists on a certain degree of personal privacy and space. Whether Ron can give her that remains to be seen.

Not only the intensity, but also the initiative. I stress on the time factor here. The pattern is: Ron reacts first. It catches Harry's attention and makes Harry reacts.
I agree that the level of reactions depend on each boy's character. I think Harry's approach is a bit general in nature, like a counselor. Ron's approach is more direct, like a personal friend.

Beautifully worded. My comment below is also to address your quoting Dana_Scully's post on Harry-Hermione dialogue after Firebolt incident was resolved.
I base my opinion on the different reactions Hermione showed to each breakup. Of course the second breakup is heavier because it adds up the left-over tension from the first one. However, it's apparent that Hermione reacted differently. This diagram is to recap my reply to Dana_Scully's past post.

Breakup 1: Firebolt Incident.
Harry was angry at Hermione for causing his Firebolt to be confiscated by Prof. McGonagall. Ron was also angry for Hermione's interference.
Hermione was adamant because she believed she did the right thing, making sure Firebolt is not jinxed by Sirius Black (still regarded as a bad guy, then).
During the breakup, no attempt was made for peace, other than Ron's finding that Hermione could be at two different classes at the same time. (Ron initiated the investigation by asking Ernie and told Harry the result. Harry never thought about it until Ron told him)
When it's over, Harry and Ron came to see Hermione. Ron offered to bring Firebolt to the boys' dorm, because he was about to give Scabbers rat tonic (and quickly back to common room, supposedly).
Harry and Hermione had a chance to talk without Ron.
Hermione was indifferent to Harry ("I suppose so" to Harry's request to sit next to her). She didn't show happiness (hiding it or just not feeling any?). Harry showed his concern about her overwhelming homeworks, suggesting she dropped some subjects. Hermione reacted unapprovingly.

Hermione's reaction when the first breakup was over:
- indifferent to Harry (and Ron)
- unhappy on Harry's suggestion (coming from his concern)

Breakup 2: Scabbers presumed dead incident
Ron found blood traces in his bed and Scabbers was missing. Since Crookshanks had been known to prey on Scabbers and the cat was in the boys' dorm before, Ron assumed Crookshanks ate Scabbers and was angry at Hermione. Harry found the evidence convincing and supported Ron's theory. Hermione believed Crookshanks was innocent. She was angry at Ron, thinking Ron's accusation baseless. She was angry at Harry for sided with Ron.
During the breakup, there are several incidents happened:
- Harry led the Quidditch Team winning. During the celebration, Hermione ran off crying after Ron commenting how Scabbers would have loved the food if he had not been eaten.
- Ron was attacked with knife by Sirius Black in his bed. Hagrid mentioned how Hermione was deeply affected by the incident in particular.
- Hermione often came to Hagrid crying. (The burden from too many subjects she took + Buckbeak case + Breakup)
The Scabbers case was not solved yet when the breakup was over.
Hermione initiated the peace by breaking down crying on Ron's shoulder and apologizing. We know later that Hermione shouldn't have apologized, because Crookshanks was innocent. Ron accepted the apology (but never said sorry in return). The trio became friends again.

Hermione's reaction when the second breakup was over:
- Crying (in relief?)
- Apologizing (how many times she did this?)
In a strong word: Hermione "recapitulated" to Ron's demand, so they could be friends again.
What triggered Hermione's action?
She thought Ron cared for her, by offering his personal help for Buckbeak case ("I'll help"). Harry was not involved in the peacemaking nor in the Buckbeak case. Ron offered help because he cared for Buckbeak and Hagrid, not necessarily for Hermione alone. However, Hermione took it as a personal attention to her, so she willingly gave in to Ron's condition for a peacemaking.

You know I don't like Ron bashing, but prefer to appropriately place Ron where he should be.
So the following should be treated accordingly.

Has Ron behaved as a good boy thoughout the break up?
No. He behaved as a selfish boy.
Has he behaved as such to deserve Hermione's love (if Hermione really likes him?)
No. But it doesn't matter for Hermione, if Hermione truly likes him.

Based on my assumption that Hermione likes Ron:
There is a discrepancy between what Hermione sees and the readers see. Just like some parents see their daughter's boyfriend in different light than the daughter. For the daughter, the boy is the perfect prince charming, for the parents, the boy is a good-for-nothing scroundel.
The readers saw Ron's immature actions and deemed him unsuitable for Hermione. Hermione saw Ron as a boy she likes and she was touched with a slight display of care from him. If Ron is a playboy, he could have amassed many girls like Hermione.

Is Ron that bad?

I see your point-of-view. My analysis is Ron valued loyalty very high. Ron thought Hermione betrayed Harry in the Firebolt incident, so he was angry at her as Harry was.
Ron thought Harry betrayed him in GOF, first by putting his name in the goblet without telling Ron, second (after Ron was convinced that was not possible, per Hermione's information) by pursuing glory and making Ron only as Harry's shadow.
Ron made up a theory that Hermione betrayed Harry by being Viktor's Yule Ball date ("fraternizing with enemy"), to cover his jealousy.
Ron has proven his loyalty to his friends by going through adventures against his own phobia and family upbringing (to uphold rules). He demanded the same loyalty from Hermione and Harry.
Ron has yet to think Hermione ever betrayed him. Their breakup is more on rat and cat, not on personal issue.
In Yule Ball, Hermione was quick to patch any thought of betrayal by inviting Ron to ask her first ("not as last resort") for the next ball.

Ron has shown his affection to Hermione. Is it "love"?
I would say in GOF Ron showed his possessive character. One aspect of love is being possessive, but Ron has shown high level of possessiveness on other things he owns, even if they are "rubbish".
Ron was mad when Scabbers was missing, although he often said Scabbers was useless (and he actually is, as a pet). Ron's action in GOF is based on his possessive feeling to Hermione. Ron might not understand that he loves Hermione romantically, but he was not happy that a boy more qualified than him is taking away Hermione from his side. He fought with whatever way he could. It turned out to be unnecessary, because Hermione doesn't like Viktor romantically and is with Ron for the summer, instead of with Viktor.

Speaking about current relationship of Ron and Hermione:
I guess they are together already, but not in dating phase.
Ron is satisfied that he and Hermione can spend time alone without any love rival looming.
Hermione is satisfied to know that Ron cares for her and willingly stays close to him.
In OOP, we see that there is tension and hunger for the next step, especially from Hermione.
She initiated physical contacts: dragging Ron away "above the elbow" (This phrase is uncommonly used and suspiciously used to relay something) and kissing him on the cheek.
When Cho kissed Harry, I believe Hermione was not jealous at Cho for Harry. She envied Harry/Cho relationship, because it already involves real kissing, whereas Ron behaved as if real kissing is just a joke.
All "businesslike" "vaguely" etc. are for this reason.
The prospect of R/Hr kissing seemed to be remote as Ron also had the wrong idea about girl and romanticism. Hence, Hermione was disgusted and threw nasty phrases.
After the Christmas holiday, somehow they sorted this out. No more bickering. They behave normally as good friends and an unofficial couple. We see one "sigh" that betrayed tension from Hermione, and one "lovely sweet-tempered girl" from Ron. We see they respect other's opinion more (hence no bickering) and at the end of OOP, the sense of unity is shown through the way they addressed themselves: no more "I" but only "we".

Ellen,
Thanks for the reminder.
The term "secret relationship" has created a mysterious aura for something that is probably not a secret in the eye of many people surrounding Ron and Hermione. My take is: the relationship is not a secret, but any physical contacts between them are not for public viewing, thus kind of a "secret", or using a better word, "private".
I still ponder why nobody else reacts in a shocking way when Hermione kissed Ron in a dining hall in a full view of the students and teachers. Surely someone saw them, including the Slytherins, who paid close attention to the trio all the time. If people wasn't much shocked to see the kiss (as Harry would have recorded, because he paid attention to the Slytherin students), they probably have assumed long ago the two are one item.
To my personal mind, Ron's behaviour to the kiss doesn't indicate the feeling of the sky dropping down on him (that is, he is flying high), like it could be when he received his first kiss. Ron looked "puzzled" (canon word). In my opinion, he questioned himself, why Hermione kissed him here and now, in public. The lack of effect on his game also indicates the lack of uniqueness of this kiss. I speculate if Hermione kissed Harry good-bye at the station, she would kiss Ron as well (we didn't see this). This may be a usual way of Hermione saying good-bye. The kiss per se doesn't mean much then. Just a tradition, a habit, a style. No significant romantic meaning. However, Ron's reaction to the kiss showed something is going on, which did not usually happen. I think Kool-kat said: "Hermione is marking her territory", after Luna trying to cross it.
Well said.

Good thing I'm not a *shipper* then!

Muggleview wrote:

Me too! And the same, should Harry/Hermione fail to pan out. Someone asked a long time ago why we 'ship' the way that we do, but I sometimes think that this thread runs deeper than shipping actually. We're all posting for different reasons. I know that for some of us there is a genuine focus on who is going to pair up with who. Some again are posting their predictions on what might happen in the novel, or arguing over the potential course of the narrative....

I think the thing that draws me to this thread so much is that it gives me a chance to post about I interpret the text and read sub-text, while also getting the opportunity to see how other people read/see the novels. We read things so differently sometimes, but that's the thing that I find most interesting actually. Not who's right or wrong, but what we see and what we derive from it.

While my allegiance is to H/Hr, sink or swim, I just think that there is so much more to the books than romantic pairings, and that the pairings themselves are representative of deeper issues.

Which is why I'm hoping that however things pan out, the discussion won't simply grind to a halt.

Now - enough with the niceties, and on to the debate!

Muggleview wrote:

Once again - Harry noticing that Hermione was carrying too many books, and (subtly) musing about her committments for that year before anyone else does, was not inspired by any reaction from Ron, who doesn't even notice to begin with. Yes, Ron is highly vocal and critical of the fact that Hermione is taking Muggle Studies despite having a Muggle background, and he definitely implies Hermione likes to read too much (as if it's a character flaw!. ) But he is not interpreting the information in the same light as Harry, who instantly hits on what is going to be the central issue for Hermione that year: ("Are you planning on eating or sleeping this year Hermione?") How is that 'not observant'?

Only by sneaking a look at her schedule (the heavy-handed approach) does Ron clue into this. Once Ron is clued in, he is unable to let the issue go.

In the first recorded disappearance/reappearance of Hermione, Ron notices that Hermione is gone because she isn't there to answer a question that he has just asked, so of course he'd be quick to react to something that is directly connected to him. Harry notices (a mere second later) not only her dispapearance but much, much more. When she does reappear Harry is the first to actually catch sight of her. He notes that she's panting, hurrying, clutching at her bag, and yes - 'tucking something down the front of her robes' p. 98, PoA. All of this is noted, in silence, without audible comment. And it has nothing to do with Ron, nor does it rely upon Ron alerting him of anything.

Ron is not leading the way in any of this - he is just the one that makes the most noise about the issue - but it is left to Harry to make the key observations!

(Now, do you think that if 'forward' Ron had noticed that she was hiding something down the front of her robes, that he wouldn't have said anything or asked her about it?)

Harry goes by what he observes for himself, which is at odds with the notion that Harry is the unobservant party in this scenario, who is being 'informed' by Ron. If anything, Harry observes all including Ron's dramatic reactions. The person who reacts the loudest however, is not necessarily the most observant person.

Harry's focus is also, once again, on the amount of books she's carrying - enough, so that the seams of her bag split open. Ron only notices the books in relation to her schedule - not in relation to her. It's all about a schedule that doesn't make any sense to him with an added fixation on the fact that she is hiding something.
But Hermione's schedule and her secret is not her.

As I said before, depending what side of the debate you're on, one person's notion of initiative is another person's idea of intrusiveness. Reading her schedule over her shoulder and questioning Ernie MacMillan may seem like initiative to some. But given the fact that Hermione has made it clear that it is none of his business, it may also come across as just - well-intentioned, but nevertheless downright nosy and inadvertently pressurising. It doesn't come across as concern for Hermione so much as Ron's attempts to play detective and unravel a puzzle that is baffling him.

I don't think that it's an accident that Ron and Harry have different focuses (schedule vs. books). Knowing how important books are to Hermione, Harry gets much closer to the issue than Ron (for all his efforts) ever does. Ron has to rely on external sources like Ernie Macmillan, whereas, Harry just uses his eyes and his knowledge of Hermione. He doesn't have to ask Ernie Macmillan anything that he can't see for himself (i.e. that she's tired, stressed, and isolated.)

Ron wants to know where she is and what she's hiding. He notices her disappearances. He also notices Hermione's "dramatic day" (slapping Malfoy, quitting Divination etc.) and is impressed by her uncharateristic, near hysterical behaviour. Interestingly, he's 'impressed' precisely because Hermione isn't being herself and is acting out of character. In all fairness, Ron does worry (when Hermione doesn't turn up to Charms) that Malfoy may have 'done' something to her - yes he cares. But the likelihood of Malfoy doing anything to Hermione is somewhat amusing seeing that she has not only thoroughly slapped Malfoy a few pages earlier, but brandishes her wand, throws Ron aside in the process and has three boys who are larger than her, running scared.

But throughout PoA Ron doesn't notice or comment on how over-burdened with books she is, and how tired she is (things that actually pertain to Hermione and should be a cause for concern). Ron only sees her over-heavy bag of books in relation to her bookworm ways and her mysterious schedule - not in relation to how it affects her. He notices the most glairingly obvious thing - the disappearances, but seems to notice very little else. That's what Harry notices (among other things) and chooses to focus on:

That's Harry in the book - inquiring after how she is, letting her know that he knows that something is up (but allowing her the choice as to how she responds), trying to encourage her to break her isolation, relax, get something to eat etc. We simply don't see this nurturing form of caring from Ron. We see the curiousity, the persistence, and even a certain degree of possessiveness. So to me, this brings the issue down to one of which form of 'caring' is better suited to who Hermione actually is?

As for your interpretation of the 'break-ups'? My interpretation is extremely different to yours. The fact that Harry and Hermione simply make things up without a big dramatic scene of sobbing and 'true confessions' suggest to me how even at this early stage, what a strong relationship and understanding they have. Low-key does not equate to indifference.

The more one party is forced to make big gestures in order to affect a reconciliation - the more fragile the relationship, the more serious the offense, and the more of a gap in understanding it suggests. Harry and Hermione begin to reconcile without having to invest nearly so much effort into it. It's a little awkward to begin with - which is realistic - but Hermione thaws out and begins to talk naturally with Harry again. And even though Hermione is (somewhat) in the wrong and Harry is the 'injured' party, Harry still takes the first step.

Muggleview wrote:

....I - don't think so! Actually, this seems to be your narrative more than anything else here. What on earth does Ron's detective work with Ernie MacMillan have to do with reconciling Harry and Hermione? That's just Ron's single-minded pursuit over 'the schedule' coming into play, and his desire to satisfy his own curiousity. He's been trying to work out the mystery of how she has been in two places at once for most of the book, and he continues to do so. It has absolutely nothing to do with Harry or Hermione's conflict.

Honestly, I actually can't see how you are managing to derive a link here between two seperate things ( - it seems so random and unrelated). How does Ron's inquisitiveness pave the way for better relations between Harry and Hermione? If you are trying to suggest that this is Ron's 'subtle' way of getting Harry to think about Hermione - it's a suggestion that falls flat. In the canon, Harry is already thinking about Hermione (and how stressed out she is) before Ron reintroduces the issue of her schedule. And when Ron brings up the whole 'schedule' mystery once again, Harry doesn't even give Ron's musings two thoughts. He already has his seperate concerns, and has already made his observations and formulated his own thoughts on Hermione.

Even though Harry and Hermione are not on speaking terms and Harry is submerged with Quidditch he notes that:

That's Harry - taking note of where Hermione is, what she is doing and her mood in detail! Only after Harry notes all of this to himself (and, by himself) does Ron revisit his favourite hobby-horse - Hermione's schedule. Harry on the other hand notices how Hermione actually is (she's not coping), and isn't caught up with the all-important schedule like Ron is.

I also couldn't disagree more Muggleview, with your attempt to position Ron as the 'peacemaker' within this scenario - he isn't, and the canon seems to flat-out contradict your assertion. First of all, he jumps in and sides with Harry against Hermione instead of staying neutral and by doing so simply adds fuel to the conflict rather than defuses it.

Then on p. 175 (6 pages earlier from Ron's sudden and alleged 'Ernie Macmillan' "peace attempt") Hermione clumsily tries to communicate with both of them about Lupin by ostentatiously tutting and dropping a rather large hint that she knows why he is 'ill'. She is all but begging to be asked about what she knows and for some form of dialogue...until Ron jumps in, is aggressive, completely alienates her and ruins an opportunity where they could have all begun talking again. If anything, through his actions he actually prolongs the conflict (nevermind that the conflict is actually between Harry and Hermione)!

So how does this make Ron the 'peacemaker' then?

Harry also comes to the decision to reconcile with Hermione on his own after he recovers his Firebolt from Professor McGonagall.
His words?

'We' as in both Ron and himself. Once Harry makes this suggestion and takes the - hmmm - 'initiative' to reconcile with Hermione, Ron agrees. If anything in PoA, it is Harry who tries to keep the peace and to affect reconciliation - certainly not Ron as you are attempting to suggest. Ron is the one who is diving into conflict be it on Harry's behalf (about the Firebolt) or his own (regarding Scabbers.) Reconciliation is not what Ron is about in PoA.

He fights with Hermione both about the Firebolt (which wasn't really his business) and about Scabbers. Note too, that while Harry is momentarily angry with Hermione about the Firebolt he remained neutral and actually tried to repair the damage between them Ron and Hermione during the Scabbers-gate incident, and quietly asks Ron to give Hermione a break. p. 196, PoA.

Ron on the other hand holds fast to his grudge. Even when he is presented (by Harry) with an opportunity to repair the damage he deliberately chooses not to. In the end, Hermione basically all but prostrates herself in order to preserve their friendship. Only then (with the added backdrop of Hargrid's crisis) will Ron relent.

And I really don't see this alleged 'indifference' in Harry and Hermione's their reconciliation either. Harry bounds up and is extremely happy about the recovery of his Firebolt, while Hermione's manner is clearly off-hand and a little stiff and distant. That's affected 'indifference', not real indifference.

Normally, Harry would never have to 'ask' Hermione if he could sit beside her - nor would she give a grudinging and deliberately off-hand 'I suppose so'. Clearly, it's not situation normal. It's an uncharacteristic reaction from her. Obviously, she's still hurt (understandably) after being ignored by him. Just because he's happy that things have worked it would be strange to expect her to simply and instantly respond in kind and be brimming over with answering enthusiasm. After all - they've just been fighting! But Harry carefully and subtly starts to normalise their relationship and Hermione instead of being unrelenting, responds. He doesn't have to reduce Hermione tears (by being utterly unforgiving) in order to get her to start talking to him again. He just talks to her about the things that he knows interests her. She warms to him.

I also note that you omit the fact that Harry and Hermione's 'indifferent' reconciliation was abruptly cut short (and adversely affected) by the drama with Crookshanks and Scabbers. They are just beginning to talk again and communicate when - bang!

More trouble on the Ron and Hermione front to disrupt things.

It's also important to examine the nature of Harry and Hermione's 'argument' in PoA. Even when Harry is angry over her decision about the firebolt, he still maintains perceptiveness and a sense of fairness even in the midst of his anger. He is still fair enough and honest enough to acknowledge to himself, that Hermione was acting with the best of intentions. This fairness re-emerges in OoTP when Harry is perhaps angrier with Hermione than he has even been, but still has the ability to recognise her intentions.

Well okay - you've said it but - I'm still trying to understand how this is supposed to be a good thing or how it represents a positive dynamic in a relationship... How does the above situation (girl admits she's wrong even though she's right, and guy not only gets and apology that he doesn't deserve but never has to apologise for anything) 'work' in this century? Not only does it reek of inequality it's downright unpleasant and hardly something to reccommend.

Exactly - she does all the compromising while he lays out an ultimatum where he is not required to compromise at all - and you think this is...uh good? How? I'm just going to go and pinch myself to check that I'm still in the 21st century. Not sure whether to be scared or baffled over your obvious approval of something so horrible.

Amyrat alarmingly refers to Hermione having "learnt a lesson" - but the only lesson that can be derived from this mess is the one that Muggleview even admits to - that (hooray) girls must back down, be humble, compromise and submit while guys like Ron (even when completely wrong) are never required to do either, and are celebrated for their inflexibility. Hermione breaking down and crying after being relentlessly ignored and isolated - how can anyone in this day and age see this as some kind of victory or a suitable form of moral instruction? ('She learnt her lesson' etc.) This is the aspect of R/Hr that I genuinely don't understand. (Seriously - are you sure that you actually like Hermione Granger? Because surely that would be the main motivation why you would want her to get into a relationship with Ron - because you actually liked her character and who she is, right? If not, then....)

With R/Hr I often detect this desire to see Hermione put in her place, humbled or get her comeuppance etc. - yet at the same time you want her to be paired up with Ron...is that supposed to be part of the putting her in her place/comeuppance that is overdue? This is yet another reason why H/Hr has my vote, come what may. I don't sense a desire from the Harmonians for Hermione to be 'taught' a lesson etc. by anyone. Most Harmoninans seem to at least like and more iimportantly respect Hermione - flaws and all - and don't seem to derive any enjoyment from her being put through the emotional wringer.

At any rate - you've used the break-up to gauge (presumed) of levels of intensity etc., but haven't really dealt with the issue of approaches - what works and what doesn't. What benefits everyone and what doesn't. What it really comes down to though, is that the R/Hr ship could be sailing tall and proud come Saturday - but wow. I still much prefer Harry and Hermione's give-and-take approach to making up and dealing with disagreement.

I don't mean Ron is actively being a peacemaker. I clearly stated that Ron was also angry at Hermione. However, Ron still tried to find out the reason behind Hermione being overwhelmed with her homework. He was aware of Hermione's whereabouts, so anytime they may be friends again. That's the only trace of attempt, if any, to reach peace.
I am afraid you was not being fair to Ron, in comparison to Harry. The books are told from Harry's perspective, so we can see what Harry is thinking, but we cannot see Ron's mind. You seems to judge Ron's care only from his words, but not from what he can possibly think.
Case 1: Harry commenting on Hermione's books at Fortescue's Ice Cream Parlour.
I stated earlier, knowing Ron, would he be quiet watching Hermione putting books by books in bags at Flourish and Botts? He was with her the whole morning, shopping, going from store to store. Don't you think Ron can hold his mouth looking at his one bag to be compared to Hermione's 3 bags?
My take is when Harry sat with them, he noticed Hermione's bags. He didn't hear Ron's comments, so he made his own. Ron didn't mean to repeat his earlier comments, so he just let Harry said what he wants.
That's why, when you said that Harry was the first to notice the 3 bags, I find it a bit unfair judgement. Ron is not blind.
I point out also that Ron's last comment before they left for owl shop, indicates how "overwhelmed" Ron felt about the amount of books Hermione bought ("How about a nice book?").
Case 2: You claimed Ron is loud. If Ron doesn't speak out, we won't know his mind. The fact that he spoke, he must have thought about it. People spoke only a fraction what they have in mind. Ron must have thought about the disappearance for a while and then he spoke out (Ron must have wanted to make sure he didn't make silly comment, if Hermione was only going to the bathroom etc., as Harry naively suggested). Again, Ron got judged unfairly, because we only read Harry's mind. I point out that the fact Ron was thinking outside the box by asking a student from different house to check on Hermione, showed he was actively doing something.
It may be suggested that Ron only focused on the schedule not the person. But why? Won't it be logical if Ron noticed first how tired Hermione looks, and correctly deducted it has something to do with her schedule? We only see Ron investigating the schedule, but we don't know why he investigates the schedule, and shouldn't assume that Ron cared more for the schedule than the person.
Hermione noted that Ron is getting closer to her secret, so she had to drastically stop his attempts, but as you can see, Hermione realized it's about her: "What is to you that I...." Ron cares about her, so he pays attention to her schedule carefully.
Now, we see Harry's mind. Has Harry thought about the schedule? Not until Ron gave a full report. Harry conveniently used the conclusion to suggest Hermione dropped a few subjects after they made friends again.
As for your assertion that Harry observed Hermione overwhelmed with homeworks, I believe Ron has observed earlier. We know when Firebolt was returned, it was Ron who immediately told Harry where Hermione was at that moment. Ron kept tab on Hermione's location, even when they were not speaking. To me, Harry's observation is a general observation. Hermione was in Gryffindor common room every evening. Every Gryffindor could see her. It was not unique. However, at an unknown time, where is Hermione? Ron knew and informed Harry about it.

(my computer has been slowed down, so I submitted my reply in steps, instead of waiting until the end)

Thus your statement that Harry made key observations is correct, but don't judge that Ron didn't make the same observation, because Ron did more to it: Ron observed, Ron spoke, Ron took action. Harry only observed "silently", as you put it.

Now we come to the gray area of discussion: Which approach suited Hermione?
Ron being a nosy investigator, or Harry being a quiet observer?

If we use the amount of actions to indicate the level of care, I would say Ron showed more care.
However, I can see your point, if we use the amount of disturbance to indicate the level of ignorance, I would say Ron is more ignorance to Hermione's feeling, so Harry looks to be more caring.

I said gray area, because that's the main point of our whole discussion: Hermione's feeling.
I do have one indication who Hermione regarded more caring to her.
When her bag ripped, she asked Ron to hold her books. She didn't ask Harry. I won't quickly jump to use this as an indication of intimacy, but it showed a preference. Hermione prefers to receive help from Ron, for a very trivial task. That's in book 3. In Book 2, there are parallel scenes to that:
a. Hermione chose to sit on Ron's bed, after having to move Scabbers aside, while 4 other beds in the dorm (including Harry's) was free of Scabbers.
b. Ron supplied Hermione's books while Hermione recovered from Polyjuice side effects.
Those scenes showed cumulatively a pattern of closeness between Ron and Hermione at the level which Harry was not involved.

That's why Harry's careful approach (which you interpret as more low-key) indicates IMO a distance in their relationship. The conversation is more on a classmate to classmate level. The level of conversation between Ron and Hermione in all 5 books is consistently deeper than that.

In Firebolt incident:

I disagree. The conflict can only be resolved when Firebolt is returned to Harry. Meanwhile, Hermione behaved condescendend to the two. Harry, as usual, prefered to avoid her, but Ron, speaking on behalf of himself and Harry (as Harry's speaker), challenged her behaviour. I don't say Ron's behaviour is better than Harry, but apparently Hermione took it as a sign that Ron is more readily to "communicate" with her. Through Ron, she could show her regular "know-it-all" attitude (being a natural Hermione). Ron didn't prolong the conflict.
If we count Ron's knowledge of Hermione's precise location when Firebolt was returned, Ron may have saved Harry a few minutes to find Hermione.
You correctly point out the conflict was between Harry and Hermione, so naturally it should be Harry who took initiatives to find Hermione to amend the friendship. Ron was only a supporter, he quickly agreed to it and immediately provided Harry with the information of Hermione's location.

For R/Hr supporters, Ron's attitude is a strong indication of a desire for a deeper relationship. When one is making an acquintance to someone, one would not need the other party to change behaviour. However, in husband and wife case, both parties will influence each other lifelong. Ron and Hermione were starting the efforts to mold each other into a unity. Something that Harry-Hermione didn't do. Harry can accept Hermione as she is, because he doesn't think to mold Hermione into his life (IMO!). Likewise, Hermione tends to let Harry be what he is, because it doesn't concern her if he can suit her way of thinking or not.
We see towards the end of OOP: Ron and Hermione have better understanding to each other (less bickering, more non-verbal communication), whereas Harry and Hermione's communication got worse. I don't mean it cannot be reversed in future books, but I just make the conclusion based on the end of OOP.

One more thing to clarify. Don't get me or Ellen (Amyrat151) wrong. I posted earlier my dissatisfaction that Jo Rowling as a female author humbled her female character before male. I wish she doesn't make Hermione "capitulated" and giving in to Ron so much. When I read it, I shake my head, feeling the pain of a proud girl to submit so much for "love" (?!). Elizabeth in "Pride and Prejudice" didn't have to apologize so hard to Darcy. Anne Shirley in "Green Gables" only had to stretch her hand to Gilbert Blythe to make amend. Hermione had to break down crying on Ron's shoulder? Well, Jo decided to write that way. If Hermione truly is paired with Ron, what a price she had to pay to get this red-head!


Well, we have discussed back and forth. I don't know how much more I can convince you. This posting of mine is more to clarify some misunderstandings.
Honestly, I wish we still have more time before HBP, but I am excited to see HBP soon. A few more hours, and this forum will be closed. Let's see what we can discuss in these hours.

Cheers,
Muggy

Whereas to me, this is grasping at straws. The above is just a typical 'Ron'-ism seeing that througout the entire series, he is always suggesting that Hermione reads far too much and that she is excessive in this respect. There's nothing remarkable about his dig, or his attempt at humour. Ron rolling his eyes at her subject choices, and sniggering throughout the exchange doesn't suggest that he is overwhelmed at all. Just critical.

At any rate, I don't simply judge Ron by his words, but also by his actions. There is nothing written or inferred in the canon of PoA, where Ron does anything that strikes me as being sensitive or solicitous of Hermione's feelings or well-being. It's not just his words, but his actions that inform me.

I'm glad the one thing that we seem to agree on is that shipping certainly affects how you interpret various actions and events. As I was saying, what side of the debate you are on influences what you perceive to be caring, or indifferent or annoying etc.

Now we’re really getting down to one of the things that (I believe) keeps people debating on this thread - differing perceptions of what makes a relationship work (with R/Hr and H/Hr representing very different types of relationships I suppose.) Again, I can’t help but be a little alarmed by some of R/Hrs notions of what makes for a good relationship. I understand the notion of compromise which is important, but compromise has to be something that is both chosen and voluntary - and not something that occurs due to ultimatums, pressure or under emotional duress. Nor should it be one-sided. (Ron does not compromise in PoA, a fact which some R/Hr shippers seem to be rather approving of, while applauding Hermione’s capitulation which tells me a lot about this ship really.)

One-sided capitulation and little attempt to meet each other half-way, is neither balanced nor healthy, IMV. I agree that this is the way in which JK Rowling chose to write Ron and Hermione's make-up scene. I also agree that it is entirely possible that she may see nothing problematic in any of this and may go to on to actually create a relationship founded on this kind of dynamic.... But I hope she's prepared to have a lot of disappointed readers.

Wow - you're reading my mind.... But that cuts to the crux of the matter really. If R/Hr results in a sobbing, submissive, compromised Hermione - then it's not a relationship that I could (or would ever want to) get behind or respect. I actually like who Hermione is, both the good and the bad. I like the fact that she is a strong female character, and I hope that JK Rowling has the good sense not to mess with that or doesn't attempt to compromise the character that she has already created in order to make Hermione more 'suitable' for Ron.

If Hermione has to abandon her pride and her self-respect and change that much in order to be with Ron *shudders* - then nope. It ain't worth it, and will make for disappointing reading. Again, it's completely at odds with my way of thinking about relationships - that one should have to pay a 'price' to be with someone else, or that you have to sacrifice a vital part of who you are in order for this to happen.

That's just - disturbing.

On the other hand, if both characters are allowed to retain their central identity and be who they really are - then I honestly couldn't raise any objection to a pairing between them.

Thing is though, I have the strongest suspicion that if Ron and Hermione are allowed to be true to their respective characters; if, they outwardly change and develop, but at the same time fundamentally remain who they are as individuals - then there would be no real basis for them to ever get together in the first place. The only way I see them coming together is if one of them drastically changes at a fundamental level. And in those types of stories, the onus to compromise and to change always falls squarely on 'the girl'....Again, I don't think Hermione needs some kind of Mills and Boon/Harlequinesque make-over in the name of romance.

You say that Harry can accept Hermione as she is because he doesn’t want to ‘mold her into his life‘ (or in other words is indifferent)? The fact that he doesn’t want to 'mold her' is the highest compliment that you could have (inadvertently) paid to Harry! Seriously - how does R/Hr really perceive Hermione? I’m genuinely curious.

Do you see her as an actual human being? Or a ‘pudding’, a lump of play dough, or an accessory - a ‘thing’ to be molded and shaped? Something requiring a make-over in order to ’fit’ into someone else’s life. And do you see Ron in a similar light? If so, this confirms for me why I’m not at all attracted to R/Hr (or perhaps, more importantly, the following behind it)

Also I don’t follow your logic - to accept someone just the way they are is to actively embrace someone, not passively tolerate or overlook them as you are suggesting. Nor is it negative. In fact, it is the ultimate kind of love - unconditional, agape. Love doesn’t get any higher than that. It’s not about being indifferent or ‘ignoring’ the aspects of someone that are less attractive or that you may not actually like.

Fully accepting someone as they are (instead of trying to adjust them to suit your needs) is genuinely loving because it indicates that you actually know them and you can really see them for who and what they are. You are not under any illusions about them - and you willingly take on board both the good and the bad. Truly loving someone is not about making the other person over into what you want them to be (which is immature) but loving them for who they already are.

Harry for example, knows fully well that Hermione is a know-it-all - he identifies this quality in her almost immediately, but he accepts it, not because he’s detached from Hermione or that she isn’t a part of his life (she’s actually central to him whether Harry realises it or not) but, because he recognises it is an important part of who she is. Hermione wouldn’t be who she is without it. Harry as always, quietly observes that Hermione is bushy-haried, smart, that she likes to go to the library, that she likes to study, that she adores books, that she’s ambitious, that she likes to display her knowledge in class, that she can be superior etc. - he’s seen all these characteristics but, unlike Ron he doesn’t criticise them, or attempt to ‘remedy’ them or cut them down to size, because all of these things are an essential part of who she is.

A Hermione Granger who did not frequent the library, who wasn’t book crazy, or a (sometimes superior) know-it-all would not be Hermione Granger - she would be somebody else. I have so often read posts where R/Hr shippers are listing off all of the various things that a relationship with Ron will supposedly change about Hermione 'for the better' (i.e. get her out of the library, cut down her superiority, make her less serious and more light hearted and so on.) Well if that’s the case, it often leaves me with the impression that R/Hr doesn’t really want Hermione for Ron - obviously, whether they realise it or not, what they’re really looking for is somebody else.

Maybe my age has something to do with this, but I can’t get on board with the idea that you can gradually mould or make someone into an ideal husband and wife. (Like some kind of eerie ‘mould a hubby/wifey’ service!) Marriage (and let’s face it - we’re getting way ahead of anything that has happened in the book - they’re still teenagers - ) is not about creating ideals but about embracing reality. No-one ever creates then marries an ideal partner. No-one. There is no such thing.

Marriage is about getting to know and learning to live with someone else and putting both your similarities and differences, weaknesses and strengths together to create a life. You talk about creating a unity, but then contradict yourself by suggesting that they are changing each other so that the other one will fit into 'their' life. That is not 'unity'. If people belong together, they do not have to 'fit in', because they already belong. People only try to fit in with someone else (be it friends or a partner) when they don't belong! And if they have a life together then obviously, it belongs to both of them so they are both already included. Consequently, there is no need to try and mould the other person into 'their' life.

And if Ron and Hermione followed that disturbing prescription and actually regard each other as projects to be moulded or changed into a more ‘suitable’ ideal for the future (as you are suggesting), then one would have to wonder - what on earth is the basis of their attraction in the first place? “Oh, I do like you - it’s just that - I want you to be different from how you actually are - that’s all” ...doesn’t make any sense whatsoever. Anyone who is looking to change you into what they want, obviously doesn’t like you to begin with and you in turn, obviously don‘t represent what they are really looking for! It begs the question - if you want to mould the person and aren’t satisfied with who they actually are - then what exactly is it that you supposedly 'like' about the person in the first place?

The other thing that doesn’t make any sense is that if Ron and Hermione are so intent on changing and improving one another into different people, then why not just be with different people who are more suitable? It would suggest that they are not content with each other.

And while these are just merely books, I actually think that it is not only presumptuous (and dangerous) but inherently wrong for anyone to assume that they can mould or change another person. You can't perfect someone else. Personal growth and change (which is also important) is exactly that - personal, and it is undertaken by the individual. It is not for anyone else to undertake and try and affect it upon another. You can certainly influence someone for the better, but you cannot change another human being and it‘s mistake to ever think that that is possible. That is up to them. People can only change themselves, and that kind of change is only healthy if it undertaken willingly, and not for the sake of someone else but on your own behalf!

Anyway, this is partly why these pairings are so important in some respects. I can understand why so many R/Hr buy into the ‘molding’ theory - because that’s probably the only way that R/Hr would ever work. Because from what I see, they certainly don’t work just as they are. We’ll see what kind of message JK sends out with them….

Remember that? Hermione's voice in Harry's head echoing her words about Sirius? He then turned away from his idea (still can't remember it). Can you say that's not molding? Her influence stopped him from doing something reckless. And what about the big fight right before going to Umbridge's fire? Wouldn't you say that Harry was trying to get Hermione to be less careful when something like this happened, and vice versa for Hermione? Though you wouldn't exactly call it "molding" due to the situation, that's definately trying to change the other for the better to stop a life and death situation!

Now that I see it, I also disagree about Hermione's parents. If they love her, they will let Hermione go over to her friend's house. Think about it.

That's what Ron said in PS/SS. How can you be sure this didn't apply to before Hermione heard about Hogwarts? How can you be sure that she was completely isolated from children her age? It's a thing that tends to happen with people with her personality. Now, a light has dawned. Hermione has friends! At home, she just has her books, parents, and the occasional owl whom she has to be contacted by before she can send out any letters of her own. Wouldn't you say that a great deal of development in a child's life takes place around friends? If someone was isolated from friends all their lives, how do you expect them to have a social life in the future? I think that if Hermione's parents were smart enough to become dentists, then they'd be able to see this problem.

I think I've done enough to be considered doing something while still being considered on vacation. I'll see you all on the other side of HBP! Hopefully I'll have gotten my copy by then... I... kinda don't have any means of income yet...

As for the moulding issue, I notice that first of all, the original claim that Ron and Hermione were trying to mould each other into their respective lives - has now suddenly been reworded into the claim that they are *in fact* moulding themselves for each other. I think we all know that they are two different scenarios, and that I was addressing the first.... (Incidentally Muggleview, Jeremy and Nan banter and flirt, which is very different from bickering and insulting one another.)

*groans* (Please, lord, sub-text! And canon! Am I being baited here - and tricked into defending Ron? ) Muggy, if you're referring to the part of the text that I think you're referring to? Then no. When Ron calls Hermione a 'sweet-tempered' girl etc. he is being utterly sarcastic in a typical Ron-ism and implying that she is anything but sweet-tempered! It's a joke.

How do we know this? Hermione is storming around being utterly foul-tempered and snappish with everyone - and Ron is right! While I am not a Ron fan, let's give him a little more credit than that. He's not that dense, and knows Hermione well enough, that'd he'd never mistake her for being sweet-tempered, or try to pretend that she was such. It is what it is. Forget about Ron for a second - if R/Hr really want to see Ron with a "sweet-tempered" girl, then they should set their sights on someone else for him, because Hermy certainly does not fit the bill in any respect!

Ron would have to have on the biggest pair of rose-spectacled glasses ever to have to kid himself on that one after five years of her company. Smart, loyal, compassionate. Sure? But 'sweet-tempered'? Come on! But it's not Ron's perception I'm actually questioning here, (he gets it right) but that of some of his supporters...

Anyway...

Some of you are referencing examples where people respond and choose to change under someone's influence. Exactly. I don't disagree with that, and actually suggested that was one way towards personal growth and change. I already said, in my previous posts that a person can positively react to someoneone's influence, and then choose to change. The influence helps them to make a change that they actually want to make which is the key point. There's no capitulation, humiliation or surrender of self involved. It is the person who ultimately chooses to respond and willingly change themselves.

That is very different however, than someone trying to mould you, remake you, or thinking that they can (and should) change you into what they want you to be, as I believe that Muggleview was originally suggesting! The two scenarios are very, very different. The first is healthy - the second in my view, is damaging.

The agency has to lie with the individual, and it has to be by choice.

With Ron and Hermione, I don't see them choosing to change for each other, but instead spending their time trying to bicker and criticise the other one into changing (hence, the whole, you-read-too-much, you're-insensitive dynamic.) - or, as Muggleview said - they are trying to mould the other one into their lives. (This, is very different to each of them concentrating on actually trying improve themselves!) If Ron dislikes Hermione's bookish ways then perhaps, he would do better to find someone who isn't fundamentally a bookworm! If Hermione prizes sensitivity so greatly, then perhaps she ought to look elsewhere.

The idea that they can sculpt and mould the other one to change to suit them - let's put it this way. I don't see any evidence of Hermione acutally wanting to become less studious, or less book oriented at all. I don't think that she sees this as problematic, a deficiency or a 'character flaw' (the way that Ron does) - and interestingly enough, neither does Harry.

What I see instead, is that it is Ron and some/many (?) of the R/Hr shippers who want to change this (and various other) aspects of her.

I do think that Harry and Hermione have grown and changed alongside each other. Harry is more introspective, more thoughtful, and under her influence is more industrious than he naturally is. However, while he is influenced by her I don't think that there's any indication that he only does it 'for' Hermione or simply to impress or win Hermione over. While he is certainly influenced by her, he is also works hard on his own behalf, which is important, and is the best basis for any kind of enduring change. And I've argued in the past that while Hermione has a 'helping Harry' thing, it is not only voluntary but a way of improving herself and providing herself with opportunities. I honestly think that through her relationship with Harry she has become stronger, smarter and braver over the books and has changed a great deal. In both instances, they are changing themselves (motivated by the other, but also for their own sake), rather than just critically trying to wrangle the other one into changing!

As for someone choosing to change for the sake of another? That's common, particularly among marriages of a certain generation.... All I can say about that is sometimes it works as a motivation - people influence, inspire one another and help each other on to make changes that they want to make. That's not problematic. You can help someone else on the path to a change that they actually want to make. But you can't force change (be it through criticism, bickering, or nagging).

On the other hand, when a person changes only for the sake of another (where their sole motivation is to please someone else, or to 'have' someone) and the relationship still fails - all that happens is that the person is left with a unsatisfied sense that they 'sacrificed' or that they changed who they were for nothing, because their central motivation for changing? Has walked out the door.

However, if someone changes because they actually want to - and not solely for the sake of pleasing or accomodating another - then the change is usually not only enduring, but satisfying.

Muggy? I agree that due to the sequence of events that I can't (and shouldn't) definitively claim that Harry is the 'first' to notice. I agree. But what I can and will continue to say however, is that it makes not a whit of difference to the fact Harry notices Hermione’s excess of books and later stress, independently without any prompting, or reaction from Ron to guide him.

Furthermore, Harry wasn't with her when she brought her myriads of books, so it's pure observation on his part. You in turn, cannot claim that Harry 'only' notices things 'because' of Ron, which you have been arguing long and hard....To reiterate, Harry notices a variety of things (including her hiding the time-turner even though he doesn't know what it is at the time) and Ron has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with his observation.

And, given what Ron's character is like? I'd say that it's likely. But I will also say that neither you, I nor anyone else can substantiate what is neither written nor implied in the text. You are assuming. Speaking of assumptions....

*sighs* First of all we know that Hermione is a forceful, opinionated friend, and person. But we don't know what she is like as a daughter, since we are never allowed to see her within that role. We don't know Hermione in that role.

Secondly. Your non-canon based, fill-the-narrative-gaps assumption only works if you give a very stringent, and narrow definition of love - i.e. "if they felt 'x', then they wouldn't permit 'y'", therefore x(love/caring) =y (not letting her go away for that long). But honestly - it all depends on the quality of the relationship with her parents, and the situational context.

Face it - love (like parent-child relationships) is rather diverse, and expresses itself in a multiplicity of ways - not just one. Expressions of love differ from household to household, family to family. It's not as if there is any single, ideal blueprint to being a good parent! Some parents for example, would never, ever let their children go to a boarding school under any circumstances - while others would. But that doesn't "tell" us whether or not they are caring or good parents!

You are trying to limit and reduce the love of Hermione's parents (- who, incidentally, we have not even met as characters yet, and so cannot judge, however much you may want to - ) into a sole legitimate expression - as if, there is only one 'correct' way to express love. To me that would be the equivalent of saying 'if Harry cared Hermione he wouldn't have let her try and hide her timetable from them. Therefore, he obviously doesn't care for her.' It's ironic that you are deliberately painting such a narrow picture when we have just been discussing back and forth, how caring and emotion can express itself in different ways (as seen with Ron and Harry's rather different approaches towards Hermione's stress and her secret in PoA!)

At any rate - none of us know the nature of their relationship, and JK doesn't provide any implicit subtext (that I can detect) that provides me with any clues about what that relationship is like. All we know is that they are muggle dentists, that there are certain things that they don't think should be achieved by magic (such as shrinking big front teeth ), and that let her go on holidays independently. We know that they are also disappointed when she doesn’t accompany them on one of their holidays, and that she is not given to discussing them. That's it. 5 plain little facts. Unfortunately, it seems as if you are intent on embellishing/manipulating these facts without any kind of textual substantiation!

Yes. It *could* mean that they're cold, distant, and uncaring, careerist parents who don't have any genuine feeling for their daughter. HPB could later confirm this - in which case I'd have to say - good guess.

Or, it *could* also indicate that they trust Hermione, are proud of her and want to foster her sense of independence. Again, HPB could go on to substantiate this.

All those skiing holidays *could* also indicate that they are secret agents of the British government, ala George Lazenby. HPB could...oh okay!

I am not saying that either supposition is right or wrong, but I do think it's important to distinguish between the author's literal text and implicit sub-text - from the imagination of the reader. What I am saying here, is that when someone asks for an example of canon-based evidence, it just seems wrong and inequitable to try and pass something off that runs purely in the realm of speculation as if it actually exists and is 'evidence'. Or, to treat it as though it is "factual" and contained within the canon. The issue is further complicated when other supporters line up and treat it as though it is a 'reality' in the book, only to go on to build corresponding arguments on the basis of what is
a). baseless
b.) cannot be proved, disproved or substantiated at this stage!

Yeah...I know....

To me, it just seems to be an excellent way of not answering a question, and avoiding what actually is and is not in the text. You just get to make things up, as they suit you!

The original question was - is there anywhere in the book where Hermione goes through some ordeal for Ron or goes to excessive effort/difficulty for Ron's sake (as, she so often does for my boy Harry?) Maybe there are examples in the text, but no R/Hr seems willing to actually go outand glean them from the text, and seem instead to much prefer to go off on huge, speculative tangents instead.

Your answer Muggy - "that since we never actually get to see Hermione interact with her parents, then (hooray) we just can automatically assume that it is a troubled or uncaring relationship and that she has to hellishly argue with them in order to get visit Ron" - *draws breath* is not in the text, or perhaps, more importantly, implied by the text. If it's there in the book, why not just find it, instead of relying on what no-one at this stage, can actually prove?

An example of such a thing being at least implied by the text would be if we saw that Hermione was unhappy after coming from her parents, or showing signs of stress, agitation etc. If so, then at least this kind of implicit subtext or clue would actually warrant the speculation that she had indeed been fighting with her parents or didn't have the best relationship with them etc. But without this kind of implicit text (and there are other ways that it could be implied that she had difficulty with her parents or had to struggle to visit Ron), what we get is a big blank that either side of the shipping debate can embellish in any (untrammelled) way they choose, which runs contrary to the idea of having a (supposedly) evidence-based thread.

Now...*sighs* Even if I were to entertain your notion, and to temporarily enter the realm of the purely speculative? Your supposition still doesn't actually make any sense.

If Hermione's parents are overly permissive and indifferent - they let her go away for ages, so they *can't* possibly care about her (as you and now QQS, are suggesting), then - why would she have to 'argue' or do battle against them (which remember Muggleview, was your original angle)? They let her do whatever she wants because they don't want to draw the line and don't really care - yet we're to believe that she's 'warring' with them?

What about?

And I'll say this - I don't know what Hermione is like as a daughter and I don't know her parents. But, I do know what she is like as a person. She's not perfect, but she seems fairly well-adjusted to me which doesn't suggest all of this loveless trauma that R/Hr seems to desperately want to imply.

But that's it from me, on this front at least! I don't mind debating how we interpret text, or subtext, but I cannot argue against how someone wants to view information that we aren't actually provided with.

And proceeded to bash R/Hr.

So yeah, I think the debate will continue, sadly.

*sigh*

~Esrb99~