Regarding the communication issue - I agree that Harry displays some horrible communication skills in OotP, and I think that he has always had a tendency to hide his feelings throughout the book. BUT -
he wasn't always hot-tempered. Far from it in fact....

I don't see his new-found temper in OotP as being representative of his entire character or even very characteristic. I tend to see it has part of his growth as a character and something that he is working through. After all, he is a teenager, and unlike most he has been through some traumatic experiences, only to be left with the Dursleys while being isolated from the people he cares about.

Taken in context, his anger is really not that surprising - it's an understandable reaction.

Prior to OotP, who would have even thought of describing Harry as 'horrible, 'hot-tempered' or lacking in self-control? This is a very recent development (and an important phase for him) in my opinion - I don't think that "hot-headed and angry" is where Harry's personality will ultimately end up. He's growing up, it's just one transformation, and there will be more to come. His character is in the process of change - he's not an adult, and it's not set in stone. After his meltdown in Dumbledore's office, and his talk with Luna, he is already beginning to emerge from this particular phase and will (hopefully) become an even more complex character over the next two books.

Putting romance to one side for a second - if Harry's character isn't transformed after Sirius' death and remains as volatile as it has been througout OotP, then he isn't going to have much of a chance against Voldemort is he?

That's the choice that Harry faces - to move away from his anger. His behaviour has to change. As a result, when the issue of romance re-emerges, I don't think that Hermione (or any other girl) will be forced to pair up with an 'enraged' Harry. Harry is changing, and Hermione is changing as well. Once again, I see Ron (so far) as showing the least transformation as a character.

Ironically, I came up with my argument that I'm going to use as my key point in this post in the HEROES thread that Louise mentioned (some non-shippers we are, eh? ). The question posed was 'Hermione seems to have a bit of a way with getting in touch with Harry's emotions. She's got a certain *awareness* of his feelings about Cho, and seems to be able to guess what Harry's thinking at several points throughout Book Five. However, Ron seems to be slightly more blunt. Will he be able to reach Harry on a more emotional level in the coming books following the loss of Sirius?' (I put that there for background, just for the record ).

I got into a bit of a debate with another member after we posted our responses, and ultimately this question got me thinking about the relationship between Harry and Hermione, because it really is so true -- she somehow relates to him emotionally in a way that Ron, who I think we all probably consider to be Harry's best friend, cannot. So here y'all are... my textual evidence to support my claims... I've got a couple quotes from 'Goblet of Fire' and 'Order of the Phoenix'...

So at the end of these both of these books, Harry has obviously witnessed death and he is very upset. What I'd like to do is take a look at Ron's and Hermione's reactions to his grief, and how Harry reacts to their respective reactions. First, let's take an example from the end of 'Goblet of Fire.'

Here, Ron appears to be taking a strategy of diverting Harry's attention from his pain, which I consider a normal course of action for a kid to take -- I'm sure it's exactly what I would do if I were trying to comfort a friend who witnessed a death. As is obvious in this quote, Harry seems to appreciate Ron's conversation about other subjects. However, in 'Order of the Phoenix,' we see Ron silencing Hermione's attempts to talk with Harry about the loss of Sirius:

I'm not sure that this is so good for Harry. Although he does not appear to *want* to talk about his grief, we have to remember his reaction to Dumbledore's request for him to talk about the graveyard at the end of 'Goblet of Fire' versus his feelings after doing so:

In this instance, Harry thought that it would be easier not to discuss his memories and feelings with anybody, but he actually was happier after having a clearly emotional discussion with Dumbledore and Sirius. Perhaps it would be easier for him to accept Sirius's death after having an emotional discussion with Hermione, which Ron has been attempting to prevent throughout the closing scenes of "Order of the Phoenix."

Okay, so what have I proven so far? At face value, all that my evidence demonstrates is that Harry should not have a romantic relationship with Ron -- but you can carry the analysis a bit deeper (as oh so many shippers like to do). It's important to note that there are several points throughout Harry's 'grieving periods' that Hermione attempts to speak with him about death, but it is Ron who does not allow it. Nonetheless, the intention is there. Hermione understands Harry. She is connected with him emotionally, and she, unlike so many other characters with whom Harry has extremely close friendships, recognizes that perhaps it is better for Harry to discuss the deaths he has witnessed rather than stifle his feelings. Look at this parallel between Hermione and Dumbledore: both characters wanted to encourage Harry to speak, while Ron and Sirius wanted Harry to be able to rest and not think about death. It is clear that Harry initially appreciates Ron's and Sirius's attitudes more than Hermione's and Dumbledore's at the end of both 'Goblet of Fire' and 'Order of the Phoenix,' although it is equally true that going along with Dumbledore and describing the events in the graveyard (i.e., going along with Hermione's attitude, as well) is what ultimately helped Harry learn to accept Cedric's death.

To round this whole analysis off, I would like to direct your attention to Dumbledore's very nice speech at the end of "Goblet of Fire," in which he says that it is necessary to choose what is right over what is easy. Although that quotation has the most immediate application to the war against Voldemort and the Death Eaters, I think that Harry and Ron could take a lesson from this statement with regard to emotion. For both of the boys, it seems easier to talk about other things rather than discuss grief, but ultimately, stifling their feelings may not necessarily be the best thing. Only Hermione appears to recognize the importance of open emotionality. She is, in my opinion, a very wise person. Even though she knows that Harry does not want to talk about death, she recognizes that it is the only way that he will begin to accept loss. She cares about his long-term well-being as opposed to his short-term happiness, and that, according to my personal views, is the sign of true friendship. Harry needs a stabilizing force in his life. He has already turned to Dumbledore for aid and support. I find it incredibly likely that the next person to whom he will turn is Hermione. This mutual respect could be the foundation of a future romantic relationship.

Hmm.... I hope that was coherent enough for you all to get my gist... I'm not a particularly rapid shipper (in fact, this is the first time that I've ever argued in defense of Harry/Hermione!), so I will probably be very easily swayed. If I seem to switch sides a bit, please bear with me -- surely the purpose of debate is to try to understand the 'opponent's' perspective, and not simply to defend, defend, defend, eh? I look forward to your responses!!

I don't know if I've argued that point particularly coherently in the past thread... - but on joining this site, I tend to interpret their relationship in a similar way actually. I see them as equals from PS right the way through with OotP.

And yay! I haven't read the whole board of course, but I'm just so gratified to come across a post that realises that one of the central issues of OotP is communication (and, at times a lack of communication)! I think that Harry errs into disaster, precisely because he fails to communicate.

Another important issue is friendship and I think that the book is starting to draw a sharp distinction between different types of friendship. OotP emphasises the difference between being a 'mate' ( (a very masculine conception of friendship) and being a true 'friend' - the latter of which is a far more difficult, and at times, less popular affair.

I have never just applied that speech in the context of the Death Eaters and have always chosen to give a a broader application. In fact, I always think of this statement in regards to Ron and Hermione and the vastly different set of values that each character engenders. I think that Harry is both their one true commonality, and he also serves as the wrestling ground on which these two continually clash over incredibly important matters. The H/Hr and H/R shipping debate places Hermione as a (potential) source of contention between the two boys. But in the canon, it is Harry who is that central source. He is in the middle, while Hermione and Ron argue and contest over him!

Ron IMO is the quintessential 'mate' - but Hermione's friendship with Harry is a much deeper and more complex affair.

I know I'm not the only one to have said this, but the infamous Harry vs. Hermione scene concerning Sirius, highlighted to me that Hermione was the only one who was willing to do the difficult thing - i.e to step up and assert herself as Harry's equal, rather than doing the easy thing in simply submitting to his will, and being a tag-along lackey. And as Anthony said, she cared about Harry's welfare more than her own immediate comfort or winning his approval. Furthermore, she was the only character, in my view, to distinguish herself in this way in that critical scene.

Throughout OotP, Harry may snap at Hermione on occasion, but he ultimately respects her opinion and her advice, which is why it lingers with him. For example, when she expresses doubts about Sirius (and as usual, is dismissed by Ron), Harry also tries to similarly dismiss her. Unlike Ron however, he is unable to and her opinion matters to him. Likewise, with the Occlumencey, when she appears in his dreams...

This has been argued before in the first and second thread, so I won't expound on it. But it does bear (brief) repeating - when Harry is faced with a dilemma on what is the right thing to do, he will subconsciously refer to Hermione's opinion on the matter. It is her voice that emerges as a reference and a moral guiding point - not Ginny's, not Luna's, not Cho's and certainly not Ron's!

I also love the fact Anthony, that you draw direct parallels between Dumbledore and Hermione, and Ron and Sirius! I agree 100%. This is especially underscored by the whole house-elf issue and the status of other magical creatures, where it is clear that Hermione and Dumbledore stand firmly on one side, while Sirius and Ron stood on the other. It may seem minor, but I think it's actually pretty significant.

To me, these characters represent not only different approaches to life, but they engender very different sets of values - values which Harry is being confronted with more and more, and will have to decide upon. When Harry saw the statue at the Ministry of Magic, it was obvious that he was starting to think about this issue, and that he had doubts over the veracity of the image and message that the statue represented (i.e. wizards are superior while all other creatures look up to them in adoring subordination.) In fact, the entire book has equality vs. hierarchy as one of its central themes...

Looking further back to the Sirius, James, Lupin, and Peter friendship, it contained a degree of hierarchy where eventually the least equal member of the group caused the most damage. A lack of equality, always leads to resentment. While I am not suggesting that Ron is necessarily the next Peter Pettigrew, his envy towards Harry and his resentment of Hermione's cleverness have never been fully resolved.... He has never really been on equal footing with either of them.

Couldn't agree more. So-called 'masculine' versus feminine values. This might explain why I have never been able to truly warm to Ron's character - mainly because he is such a 'guy'. This is just one of the many instances in which Ron and Hermione represent opposing attitudes towards life.

Grrrrr..... How many times must I ask people to use EVIDENCE - not suppositions about what JKR has or hasn't said?

*sigh*

FOR THE LAST TIME - SHE HAS NOT. If she had, we wouldn't be having this debate and I wouldn't be turning purple right now.

She's made vague comments that could be interpreted either way and that's all.

I'm trying to save this thread for you guys, really I am....but it's a losing battle you know.....

That as many of you will recognize, is the scene in which Hermione kisses Ron on the cheek in Order of the Phoenix. This scene can be interpereted in two ways. 1. Hermione was so comfortable placing the kiss it meant nothing. 2. The kiss seemed to puzzle Ron, therefore it means something. My interperatation is the latter. The kiss seemed to confuse Ron, as if it was something quite unexpected, and he didn't know quite how to handle it. I (although love him) find Ron rather immature, and he didn't know how to react. He's never had realistic (or none Veela) feelings for a girl before, and I think this may be the point where he starts to question his own feelings about Hermione. Also, at the end of Goblet of Fire, Hermione also felt comfortable kissing Harry on the cheek, meaning she would feel comfortable with Ron as well.

This scene takes place when Harry asks if he's a bad kisser. And, I must say, Ron's reaction rather surprised me. Obviously this indicates he did not like the idea of Harry and Hermione kissing. He says it in a sharp voice, meaning he would be angry if they were. To me this was an indication that he'd rather not have his to best friends get together, in my opinion because he's noticing feelings for Hermione. There are countless times throughout the series when Ron does something like this, or notices Hermione writing to Krum, and becomes angry. Why? Well, I think it is out of jealousy, and strange feelings beginning to develop for his bushy haired friend.

.....People really do read into things differently.

Drawing from the canon:

Now here is a non-canon erm...'parallel' if you would.

Hmmm. Harry didn't get a kiss, and 'Sid' didn't get any milk? But that's inference for you. It's literally a case of relying on the reader to 'fill in the [rather obvious] blank'. Good writing technique means that a writer *shouldn't* have to clumsily spell out every last detail - especially, when they are referring to an action (i.e. Hermione's kiss) that has already a.) occured and b.) is being duplicated, as is inferred by the use of the "dash".

The dash at the end of a sentence indicates that something is being left unsaid OR is not being explicitly described. Of course, I imagine that some readers suppose that within that significant pause Hermione just stands there and stares at Harry, walks away or gives him a 'thumbs up'? It's not impossible of course, but it doesn't make literary sense, or follow on from the general context of what is taking place. The use of the 'dash' or implied action, only works through context.

"I tripped at the top of the stairs and - " Again. Use your imagination.

Back to the canon. We already know from previous books that Hermione is comfortable with hugging, and kissing Harry, and that she does so almost routinely. It's natural. So much so that at this stage it is simply implied rather than explicitly stated. What is being highlighted here however is that she kisses Ron, and that this is a departure for both of them.

The kiss may indicate some unfamiliar, and burgeoning feeling from Ron towards Hermione - although it completely debunks the Ron/Hermione secret summer romance supposition that has been been speculated on. This may have been said before, and if so - I apologise. But - if they were having a secret relationship, Ron may have been startled by Hermione's indiscretion - but he certainly wouldn't be "puzzled" by being kissed if they are already in a romantic relationship. Nor would he be standing there trying to come to grips with 'unfamiliar feelings'. If they're together - then what is there for him to puzzle over or come to terms with? So scratch that theory.

At any rate, Hermione kisses them both on the cheek - one is explicitly mentioned in detail because it is such an ususual occurence. Now this is just me - but, it seems as if the only time that Hermione has willing physical contact with Ron is under extreme circumstances. In POA Hermione hugs Ron in a sobbing apology, after having been ignored by him for months and ostracised by both boys.

In OotP, we see another set of extreme circumstances. Ron is about to become the sport of the Slytherins. Hermione who is one step ahead as always, suspects that foul play is in the air. Her first move is to immediately appeal to Harry. She is about to confide her suspicion when;

She then kisses him on the cheek.

Far from being a scene of raging and uncontrollable attraction, I see Hermione's action as being almost maternal. It's not at all lover-like. Again, this is one of those scenes that just highlights to me how Harry and Hermione are united together on one level (i.e. alert and aware to what is going on around them) while Ron is left in the dark. He's portrayed like a little boy, while the two 'adults' are protectively reading the situtation that goes over his head.

Hmmm. The 'Keeping the Parntership' essay (referred and linked to in earlier threads) comes to mind here... When I read the above quote I can't help but think of when Hermione emerges from her Ancient Runes exam, fuming over an important mistranslation - ehwaz (partnership) vs eihwaz (defense). I think that Hermione has swayed between both partnering and protecting Harry, but has finally figured out her own role in relation to Harry....

Before I joined this board, I would have happily suscribed to the notion that Hermione was maternal and protective towards Harry and I think I er...even once posted something to that effect....

But now, I disagree!

I think that they protect each other from harm and shield each other. In GoF, it was a much more one-sided dynamic largely because Hermione could only assist from the sidelines and was not directly involved in the central action, while Harry's main focus was his own survival. Hermione did not need his defense or his protection most of the time. Yet through most of POA and OotP their fighting partnership is central to the story while they are shown to be on equal footing as they alternately protect one another. Ron is clearly on the sidelines. His role is never as significant.

I agree that both Ron and Hermione have stood up for each other on different occasions. But, the same asssertion can equally be applied to Hermione and Harry. She defends him from Malfoy's 'second-best-to-Weasley" attack on the train, and he later defends Hermione from Cho's criticism. So - they too, 'defend' one another from verbal attack. But, that is only looking at one context....

If, on the other hand, we refer to the ruling principle of their world - i.e. magic - then this places things within a different context. When it comes to critical situations and magic - it's much harder to argue that Ron and Hermione 'defend' each other equally. I would disagree. Ron and Hermione do not partner up in this respect or protect one another. Ron is rarely in a position to defend Hermione, and furthermore she does not require his protection in this vein. Hermione is second only to Harry in terms of magical ability.

Re-reading all of the books, but particularly OotP has highlighted for me that Harry and Hermione function as equals. In OotP there are so many instances where Harry and Hermione either connect with one another or share a deeper level of awareness that Ron simply isn't privy to and isn't operating on.

And Hermione (thank God! ) is NO Mrs Weasley. Far from it in fact. Hermione is too honest and tough-minded for misguided maternal affectation. Hermione confronts Harry with the harsh truth in OotP on many occasions, and even goes so far as to confront him with the truth about himself - something that only Snape interestingly enough, has ever attempted to do. As they say - it's either your worst enemy or your best friend.... And like a friend (rather than a 'mother-figure') Hermione tries to aid and assist Harry in dangerous situtations - not mother him from them.

Molly Weasley on the other hand literally mollycoddles Harry. She is always trying to shield Harry from the truth by keeping him ignorant, oblivious and in a child-like state. Compare this to Hermione. No matter how difficult it is, Hermione directly tells Harry the truth and will shed light on the truth even when he is extremely resistant to it. Now compare this to Molly who, will deliberately withhold the truth in order to 'keep him safe'. She doesn't want Harry to know.

Her attitude towards knowledge stands in direct contrast to that of Hermione. As her name suggests, Hermione loves knowledge and she doesn't believe in swaddling Harry and keeping him in the dark to 'protect him'. She has far too much respect for Harry to do that. As a result, she is constantly encouraging Harry to extend himself - to try more, do more, learn more, know more and BE more. She will warn him from danger, but she doesn't block him from the truth or try to prevent him from gaining the facts so that he cannot make informed choices. One tried to obscure the latter - the other is intent on illuminating and providing them.

To my mind, the two 'women' are very different indeed, and their attitude towards Harry is similarly different. One, represents a soft-minded, insular but well-meaning maternalism - the other is that of a true friend and an equal.

This has probably (like everything else) been covered before, so I'll just say that I think that too much of a one-sided emphasis is placed on Ron's bouts of jealousy (which, I personally don't see as a positive thing). First he envies Harry and all of the attention that he receives - then he turns positively green when Hermione does a Cinderella and turns up to the ball with his idol on her arm - no less. There is so much childish spite behind his behaviour at the Yule Ball that I see the jealousy clearly, but find it extremely difficult to detect the supposed 'romance' in any of it.

I've said in a previous thread how mature Hermione was, and how well she handled herself when she was under attack. But what I didn't mention, but will mention now is how childish Ron seemed in that moment.

All that Ron's jealousy tells me is that - Ron is jealous (and insecure) by nature. Even if Ron did indeed like or even 'love' Hermione, he cannot love her beyond the confines of his own nature. His love cannot be seperated from who he is. On the other hand, Ron's jealousy does not reveal Hermione's feelings on the matter. They only tell us about Ron!

Harry likes Hermione very much, but she not the same as Ron because there was much less laughter. In my opinion Harry and Hermonie are exactly jokers Ron makes them laugh. If someone is your significant other aren't they really your best friend? I mean yes you have other friends, but you spend a good 70% of the time with them so I would hope that it would be fun in some way.

GOF US Edition pg 365

He's unbelievably happy. I'll leave GOF because Harry was fourteen and we all know the Harry would miss his "Wheezy¨ the most (I don't know if that ever wears off some guys, but I'm hoping Harry will eventually. ) Anyways I was going to look through OOTP and look at where Hermione and Harry spent alone time, but I couldn¡¦t recall any that didn't involve danger. Danger is not what I'm looking for rather I want to see where Harry enjoys Hermione's one on one company. Like I see for Ron & Hermione, I really don't want to go through every book and point out the two playing chess, or laughing or "having the time of their lives¨ at Hogsmeade; unless of course you need me to.

I am not saying that Harry and Hermione don't enjoy each others company, I am saying that I apparently missed it and I would like to know where this can be found. Again I want to see how this makes Harry happy not Hermione.

P.S. My signature is links to interesting, in my opinion, stuff.

I've already touched on this in this thread so I'll just answer with examples - and then leave it alone! It's funny though because it is usually H/Hr shippers that argue on the basis of equality. (I wonder if the 'equality' angle is in danger of being over-discussed? Anyway....)

1. I'm not so sure that it is a 'fact' that R/H are equals - if anything, I think that the canon actually suggests the opposite. There are too many instances where Hermione thinks circles around Ron and just excels beyond him. She outstrips him time and time again.

2. To me, sporadic instances where Ron verbally defends Hermione and vice versa suggests loyalty. But, it doesn't prove equality one way or another.

I would also argue that Ron often leaps to Hermione's defense in instances where she doesn't require or need his defense. It allows Ron to be reactive and to vent his quick temper. It's part of his character. Ron is easily provoked. But while he is undoubtedly displaying loyalty towards Hermione and means well, more often than not, he doesn't actually succeed in assisting or defending her. (see, Ron and the backfiring slugs charm, in CoS)

The most that you could say about that instance is that he attempts to defend her, while Hermione later learns what all the fuss is about in Hagrid's hut (and calmly takes it all in her stride).

Another example of Ron's dubious protective instinct - is in GOF. Rita Skeeter romantically links Harry and Hermione together in print, then later suggests that Hermione is a heart-breaking fame-hound on the look-out for the most popular guy. In Ron's view the articles 'sully' her good name and his attitude is typically defensive. Once again, Ron is indignant on Hermione's behalf - but not only is Hermione indifferent, she is even amused by his indignation:

Again, Ron is angry, protective and indignant on Hermione's behalf. Yet, she not only giggles at the source of his anger, but she also giggles at his reaction! Again, this is not indicative of someone who desires or needs Ron's support or defense, and this is higlighted by the following scene whereby Hermione sarcastically smiles and waves at the inquisitive Slytherins. Hermione, is more than handling her business - Ron is not.

Harry, interestingly, does not react or get upset on her behalf. This has sometimes been pointed to as a sign of Harry's indifference towards Hermione - that unlike Ron, he isn't moved to worry about her 'reputation' etc. I disagree. Throughout the book, Harry recognises and respects Hermione's capability. He acknowledges that she is handling the 'Rita Skeeter' situation far better than he is, and he is fulll of admiration for her.

I would argue that Ron's behaviour in this instance, is actually stereotypically 'heroic', and display some deeply traditionalist (i.e. sexist) and conservative values ("scarlet woman" etc. - inherited from his 'mum' no less ). Whether he realises it or not, Ron is trying to position Hermione in the role of 'the girl' who's 'honour' is in need of 'protection' (i.e. a damsel in distress).

But Hermione with her more progressive values, blithely rejects the cliche, and rightly identifies the whole situation as 'rubbish'. (This quote is useful for H/Hr shippers who want to explore the different values that Ron and Hermione have.)

At any rate, Harry's supposed non-reaction demonstrates to me that he knows and understands Hermione so incredibly well. He, unlike Ron, recognises that Hermione is far too strong, sensible and independent to require his or anyone else's protection here. She is not a 'damsel in distress' (she's giggling for heavens sake) so he doesn't erroneously (and comically) try to treat her as such.

He knows her. He knows what is and isn't important to her, and has more insight than Ron, into recognising what would and wouldn't genuinely hurt her. He sees that she is more than equal to holding her own in this situation, so treats her like an equal (instead of the 'little woman') and stands aside.

By contrast, Ron is only too happy to stand aside, precisely at the moments when Hermione actually does require his support or defense. (i.e. Prefect duties, or when she is confronting Harry over important issues. In those instances he rarely backs up or 'defends' her.)

Those are just two isolated instances of course, but still....

3. I still say that the canon is pretty thin on examples where Ron and Hermione fight alongside each other (as opposed to with each other ), and that there are few examples where they take turns in defending each other within a magical context or a crisis. The one example that comes to mind is of Ron successfully using his magic to protect Hermione in a situation where she actually requires his protection - is in the bathroom/troll scene in PS, and his successful 'wingardium leviosa' spell. But not too many other instances come to mind....

4. The idea that Herminone assists Harry more than the other way around has merit though and it's a good argument against H/Hr. I think this is supported by the canon. We do see that Hermione assists him and displays open concern about him and his life, than he does for her. Harry, as the chief lens of the narrative can seem (and be) extremely self-centred. But there is also evidence of Harry being more in tune to Hermione's mood, thoughts or emotions while others fail to notice. So - that last one can be argued either way.

ETA: Hello Bandoth. And ssshhhh! I'm not supposed to be a shipper! On a more serious note, cool job with the links, btw.