I thought I might as well begin this topic so that no member accidentally puts the name of the character who died in the topic title.

IF YOU HAVE NOT FINISHED READING HALF-BLOOD PRINCE, DO NOT READ ANY FURTHER!

I know, that's a bit large (sorry about that, mods ), but I think that's better than unsuspecting readers getting the end of the book spoiled for them before they get to experience it themselves.






And if that wasn't sufficient warning...

MAJOR SPOILERS BELOW!













VERY VERY MAJOR!








Okay, that really should have deterred anyone who doesn't want to be spoiled. So here we go: Snape killed Dumbledore.

I must confess that I am still reeling in shock; I was convinced that Snape was on our side. Like Lupin, McGonagall, and every other Order member, I believed that Dumbledore had a valid reason to trust him, and because Dumbledore was such an accomplished Legilimens, surely he would be able to detect Snape's lies, even if they were well-masked?

Apparently not. Dumbledore's reason for trusting him is really quite pathetic.

When Snape came out on the balcony near the end of the book (where Dumbledore, Harry, Malfoy, Greyback, amd two other Death Eaters were congregated), I got quite excited, as I was eagerly anticipating Snape's "moment of truth."

And, most unfortunately, it came. I could hardly believe it when I flipped the page and read Avada Kedavra! - was it even possible for Dumbledore to die? And Snape...there really are no words to properly describe his foulness; scum of the earth barely touches the surface. The moment of truth came, and Snape decided to save his own neck over Dumbledore's.

I've heard some theories that Snape is still a good guy, but, quite frankly, I don't see how this is possible, and even if it is, I'll never believe it. I can't think of many worse things than killing Dumbledore - Harry, perhaps - and though Snape definitely has Voldemort's trust now, absolutely no one will believe him if he claims to turn back to the good side.

Whereas Dumbledore was the epitome of good, Voldemort, Snape, and Bellatrix are the exact opposite. They kill for personal gain, and with not even the slightest trace of remorse.

This was Rowling's biggest plot twist yet, as it encompasses six books. I certainly didn't see it coming. Did you?

Once the moment of thruth came for Snape to show his true side I knew he was going to kill Dumbledor...What made me believe this was that Dumbledor was Saying Severus's name in a way of begging for mercy from him...Even though I was sure this would happen I was still shocked when Snape actually killed Dumbledor, I was thinking that Dumbledor was such an accoplished wizard that he might have a Horcrux himself, or even have a way of doing magic without a wand...Heck I even wandered why he didn't apparate away so that he would live to help in the fight against Voldemort. I really can't wait for the seventh book to come out so that I can see just how thing work when Dumbledor isn't leading

I completely agree, Matthew. I was thinking about this today ... Snape was a red herring in the first book, we know, to distract us from Quirrell, who was completely given to Voldemort. But now we realize that we've been thrown loads of red herrings, all distracting us from a certain Severus Snape.

This being said, I wonder what Snape was really doing when he was teaching Harry Occlumency during the fifth book. Ron surmised that Snape was secretly opening up Harry's mind to Voldemort, to make it easier for Voldemort to use him. At that time, Hermione snapped at Ron to be quiet, that Dumbledore trusted Snape. I believe Ron was right about Snape. How was Dumbledore to know what was really going on behind closed doors in those lessons?

No, I didn't see it!

Its so rude, she killed off Dumbledore, how could she?!!!

But i suppose, now that i think about it, it was needed. It was probably the only way that Harry would be able to find the determination he needs to do what he has to!

But Dumbledore.......*sniff*

I dont buy the reason Dumbledore gives for trusting snape..its pathethic and really we ought to think that one of the greatest wizards of all time had a better reason than to trust a known death eater's story of remorse...It is an insult to his memory.Why he doesnt confide his reasons in harry ,we may never know...and I also refuse to buy that Dumbledore would plea for mercy at the end..He could have done much more than simply imbolizing harry and chatting with draco when Hogwarts was under attack

This sucks. 2 Years till next book at least.

Edit: Oh and he couldn't apparate away. He was within castle grounds, all that protection and stuff....

Knowing now the Rowling doesn't mind killing off main characters, it makes a theory of mine seem more likely.

It could be possible that at the climax of the 7th book that the only way Harry can kill Voldemort will result in him dying. I have a hard time believing she would do this, but it can happen.

Harry might know this himself and that is why he left Ginny.

I think it was all dumbledore's plan. Snape, I dunno, but Dumbledore KNEW he was going to die. we all know dumbledore, he does 'odd' things, so really, he DID act in character...

But I think the pleaing was for him to get it over with, and not hold it out any longer... I dunno.

~Esrb99~

I think that Snape really was on Dumbledore's side until Narcissa asked him to make the Unbreakable Vow. I think he got scared that he was in so deep on both sides. He couldn't have told Narcissa no, because she would have known that his loyalties didn't lie with Voldemort, and when he did say the Unbreakable Vow, he couldn't stay loyal to Dumbledore while helping Draco. So, I think that upon making the Unbreakable Vow, he chose his side and it was with Voldemort. I'm sure Dumbledore didn't see that coming, and if he had, he was foolish for keeping Snape so close to him, so Dumbledore was vulnerable. He trusted Snape, and I'm sure at one point had good reason, but hadn't known when Snape had made his decision that his loyaties were indeed with Voldemort.

I hope that wasn't too confusing...

That a really EXCELLENT point.

I thought Dumbledore pleading was extremely out of character. Dumbledore would not plead for his life, I somehow find him pleading for his death much more believable.

I don't imagine he would have been oo well after that potion anyway.

I still think that Snape will be redeemed. I believe that the reason Snape killed Dumbledore was the unbreakable vow he made in the early part of the book. I do not believe that he is truly evil - conceited and vengeful, maybe - but not evil.

You can only use an Unforgivable Curse if you truly feel it. I'm sorry, but I do not see Snape redeeming himself in anyway. He's not going to back to Hogwarts. The DADA position is cursed. He can't come back and teach Potions, Slughorn's got that position now.

I was one of those that thought Snape truly was on Dumbledore's side, but he proved that he really was loyal to Voldemort and no one else.

I was speaking of the vow he made to Narcissa - to finish Draco's job if he couldn't. I still hold out hope of his redemption.

hello, this is my first post and i would like to agree on the point that Snape is still on Dumbledore's side. If you read the part where Harry is forcing Dumbledore to drink the potion while searching for the Horcrux it says harry had a look of remorse and he was scared, something similar to that, and Snape was described to have the same look and reaction when he killed Dumbledore, he looked remorseful and scared. Hagrid told them that Dumbledore and Snape had gotten into a fight and Snape was angry. Maybe Dumbledore told Snape do obey his orders without question, as he did with Harry. "Do what ever I tell you." Harry was upset about these orders and maybe so was Snape. I think Snape might be still on Dumbledore's side.

Dumbledore lifted the apparation blocks for the apparation lessons, why not do it for himself? He is one of the strongest wizards, if not the strongest wizard of his time, so wandless magic shouldn't be a problem for him. Not to mention, when it was mentioned that Snape could have been on the OotP side until the vow, I found myself questioning that. Why wouldn't he make excuses, rather then OFFER Narcissa malfoy the vow? Not to mention, as you see in his potions book, snape had some serious problems, and I don't think they went away with time. They merely festered, so when Voldemorte returned, he sided with him, either opportunistically, or had never left his side...

Im with you Regulus

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The potion had made Dumbledore much too week to counter all the enchantments and whatnot that he had put on the school. Just because he can lift the charms and such when he's not weak from potions, but he wouldn't have been able to do it.

Once again, Snape knew that if he didn't make the Unbreakable Vow, his cover would be blown, and they would know that he wasn't on Voldemort's side. Narcissa had come to Snape BEGGING for his help. She was scared for her son, and Snape knew that he had to help Draco.

Maybe I'm wrong, and maybe Snape had always been on Voldemort's side, but still, I think that Dumbledore is much too wise, and he would see right through Snape. I'm sure Dumbledore had a valid reason for trusting Snape, possibly even until he gained the position of DADA teacher. He was once again surrounded by the Dark Arts. Just as Dumbledore feared, they seemed to get to him.

Well I was as shocked as anyone when it happened - when Snape appeared I thought 'oh, everything will be ok now--' and then BAM!

I had several thoughts about it once the initial shock wore off. Possibly the reason why Dumbledore kept Snape ('Professor Snape, David') so close was because he knew this would happen sooner or later, that Snape would eventually choose Voldy over him and would be made to kill him (one way or another). It sounds crazy, but DD has done a lot of strange things in the past. Maybe he knew that the only way to stir Harry enough into action was for this to happen. Plus, he froze Harry under his cloak just before Malfoy appeared, thereby allowing Draco to disarm him - this smacks of a set-up on DD's behalf.

But when all's said and done, Dumbledore is not completely gone - a portrait of him appeared in Dumbledore's office shortly after his death. So Harry (and others) can still communicate with him, but just can't have him help them in person (for spells, etc.).

Another thing to consider is how Dumbledore spoke to Harry towards the end. Ordinarily he would be patient regardless of how worked up Harry was, or how nosy. The last few times they spoke, however, he was very close to losing his temper with him. Odd that.

But then, he did a few things that were out of character for him towards the end, including begging to Snape (whether to kill him or to save him, I have no idea). Begging belies weakness, and one thing I never thought i'd see Dumbledore be was weak, regardless of the situation.

So DD lost his wand when Draco disarmed him - where, in all six books, does it state that a witch or wizard can have only one wand? It is a possibility that in his other hand, he held a second wand, hidden under his robes, and was casting very powerful and subtle non-verbal spells like mad while he was distracting Malfoy....

EDIT:

I just read one of the other posts above mine (very hard to keep up!) and there was an excellent point: DD had lifted the enchantment to stop Apparition within Hogwarts. It might be argued that he would have put the enchantment back afterwards, but then: how was it possible for Dobby and Kreacher to Apparate to him when he called for them to follow Malfoy?

Maybe, if he did have a second wand, he managed to Apparate away when he was distracting Malfoy and replaced himself with a likeness of himself for Snape to 'kill'. Maybe i'm just clinging too hard to the idea that he could still be alive, but....

I'm going to play devil's advocate on this. I think Snape didn't WANT to kill Dumbledore but HAD to kill Dumbledore. I would submit that Dumbledore knew about the Unbreakable Vow Snape had taken. When Bellatrix preforms the Vow, Snape is reluctant to make the final vow. I also see Dumbledore's plea not for mercy but a plea for Snape to kill him so that Draco would not be a murderer. After all that was the whole reason for Dumbledore's prolonged speech to Draco, "Don't kill me, Don't be a murderer, We can help you, we can hide you." Also, Snape did not appear to know the attack was coming and when he realizes that the Death Eaters are there his first act is to STUN not kill Professor Flickwick and send the girls into the office to look after him, and head to the tower to prevent Draco from murdering Dumbledore, and again on the way to the tower he never fires a spell at anyone else, not against the Death eaters, not against the other Order members. Also after he kills Dumbledore his first and apparently only goal is to get Draco out. I would also submit that Dumbledore knew what was going to happen since Dumbledore's first act is to freeze Harry so he wouldn't react and possibly provoke Draco into firing the Killing Curse instead of Snape.

I think at that point, Dumbledore would prefer Snape to kill him than Draco. He knew he was going to die, by someone. And he would rather keep Draco "innocent." So he chose for Snape to kill him, but I don't think that Snape will come back to The Order's side. Killing Dumbledore without hesitation or a second thought makes me think that he really did want him to die. And not beacuse they planned it or anything else, but because he hated Dumbledore.

So Dumbledore dying was absolutely terrible...but I think it was a necessary evil. Dumbledore was absolutely perfect, and as long as he was around, Harry felt secure. Now that Dumbledore and Sirius are gone, Harry doesn't have any idols to look up to or count on to take care of him-he has to take care of Voldemort all by himself. He's probably going to change completely in the next book...but it could go either way, he could spiral out of control and be a complete mess or be really strong. I guess that kind of balance is what's going to direct the ending.

But on a different note, did anyone else think it was kind of strange how much his personality changed from book 5 to 6? In book 5 he wasn't very likable...always surly, and yelling at people. Then something really terrible happens, and he's much more level in this most recent book. I'm happy about that, though, book 5 was tough to read sometimes because of that.

hi, haven't been here for a while,

this is my opinion and analysis of snape killing dumbledore.

i knew Dumbeldore would have to die at some pint. poor harry, everyone who are in parental capacities die.

snape is playing triple agent i think, voldemort and dumbldore knew that snape was on each side, so that's a double double cross been 'loyal' to both and spying for both, but ultimately snape was was, is, on side with dumbledore.

the aforementioned arguement between snape and dumbldore, must have been the momentn when snape told D. of the plan that Draco had to go through with on pain o death, and that D.'s death was unavoidable now because snape had taken the unbreakable vow to keep his cover with bellatrix.

i rekon snape said he just wouldn't do it but D. said he had to because the promised, in a very typical dumbldore way it seems to me.
plus, in the end i think D. would want to protect Draco too- him being young and 'innocent' well, he did hesitate, and D. knew he wouldn't go through with it. even Harry pitied Draco then.

Dumbledores begging was begging Snape to go through with it, in order to save snape and Draco.

"Don't call me a coward"
it would have taken guts to go through with it and kill dumbledore, from the angle i see, and snape'd feel pretty bad afterwards too.

also, the advantage of Voldamort having a man on the inside, which snape explained to bellatrix, would be lost- with or without Dumbldore. and the fact that they didn't kill harry too- Snape stopped them. since when would V. give up a good chance to finish him, in person or not?

and snape gave Harry some good advice too, as they were running away- "learn to close your mind.. etc" don't remember the line. this seems actually quite practical.

oho, this is longer than i would have liked, sorry, hope you bore with me. or were bored.

from who

We should remember that Snape may have killed Harry had Buckbeak not attacked him.

He was definately losing control.

I agree with newbie. I may be repeating some of what newbie said, because I just read the post.

I think when Dumbledore pleaded with Snape, he was asking Snape to kill him. Dumbledore knew about the plan for Draco to kill him. He was not shocked that Draco had orders to kill him. I think Dumbledore's main objective was to save Draco. He wanted to save Draco's life, but more importantly to Dumbledore, Draco's soul. He didn't want Draco to kill him, because it would destroy Draco's soul. I think Dumbledore prearranged with Snape that Snape should kill him, if he had to in order to save Draco. Draco was a Hogwart's student and Dumbledore would feel protective of him.

When Hagrid let it slip that Dumbledore and Snape argued, he said that Snape said that Dumbledore asked too much of him. I think Snape was arguing about his promise to Dumbledore to kill him. I think Sanpe would have preferred to break the unbreakable vow rather than kill Dumbledore. There are a few passages that lead me to believe this.

One passage is the dialogue between Snape and Harry after Snape disarms Harry:

"'Kill me then,' panted Harry, who felt no fear at all, but only rage and contempt. 'Kill me like you killed him, you coward --'
'DON'T --' screamed Snape and his face was suddenly demented, inhuman, as though he was in much pain as the yelping, howling dog stuck in the burning house behind them -- 'CALL ME COWARD!'"

In the passage above, Rowling says that Harry notices that Snape looks like he is in pain. Snape looks this way when Harry talks about Snape killing Dumbledore.

Another couple of passages that led me to beleive that Snape may not have wanted to kill Dumbledore were two unrelated passages that used similar words. One passage was when Snape killed Dumbledore and the other passage when Harry had to force Dumbledore to drink the potion. When Harry forced Dumbledore to drink the potion, it says, "Hating himself, repulsed by what he was doing..." Right before Snape kills Dumbledore it says, "Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face." It's possible that the hatred and revulsion were due to the same reason that Harry felt this way. Snape could have hated himself for what he promised Dumbledore he would do.

Just before Snape killed DD...

You're all so smart.

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mrs who, i agreed with your theory completly untill i read where snape was sneering at harry in the woods, surely he wouldnt do such a thing if he didnt wanted to kill dumbledore, at least i wouldnt been sneering anytime soon after i killed him

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Fayt,
oo i missed that line, where abouts is it?

Snape does act a bit odd relative to the situation, maybe that's just him.. i think he's a confused, conflicted and angry man .. scared too. who wouldn't be?

House elves have different and unique magic when compared to Wizards. As demonstrated in Chamber of Secrets.

I can't say for sure but I think that Dobby has apparated frequently in Hogwarts, or the enchantment doesnt apply to house elves. House Elves after all can't kill humans. Even on order by their masters.

Even if DD told Snape to kill him rather then blow his cover. Why did he stun flitwick in his office when the Order came to get him?

As much as I dont like it... Snape never left Voldimort's side, he hid under DD's protection untill the time was right for him to reveal himself, but also he also had to deal with the unbreakable vow....

For awhile I though that DD would die in this book... This book in my mind was going to be about DD and Harry. The focus of the book would be on them trying to figure out away for Harry to defeat Voldimort. Which was acomplished. As I though about it more(this was prebook 6) I was thinking that the seventh book had to be only about Harry vs Voldimort/deatheaters. And the only way for this to be accomplished was to kill DD. (though I was really hopeing i wasnt right)

theres one thing that is bothering me though, as the great wizard the dumbledore is and losing a hand and almost dying in his second attemp to get a horcrux (which was pointless because the horcrux was a fake and he ended up dying in vain), how is harry going to get the rest?, im not saying harry is a good wizard, hes great, but he has no knowledge of the kind of spells that voldemort uses to protect his horcruxes, harry didnt know the kind of magic dumbledore knew, and when in the cave harry had no clue of what to do at all, even when dumbledore told him the inferi were weak to fire he panicked and used different kind of spells that didnt work, my only guess is that before harry sets out to get the rest he must first of all, find out where they are, and second of all train himself, i dont knwo how, maybe hell be trained by someone but harry cant kill voldemort as the wizard he is now

i guess no one read my first post, but when Dumbledore and Snape had a meeting, Snape got angry, this could be when Dumbledore told Snape he had to kill him.

JK has always given us just enough information to put Snape in either camps. It's pretty brilliant on her part, but I digress. I haven't made up my mind as to which place I'm going to put Snape, but I do believe that JK is making parallels to Snape/Voldemort/and Harry. But, as she's doing with the series choice has come into the being (a la the Matrix...).

Remember, when Voldemort came a calling for a job (before he cursed the DADA position) Dumbledore saw right through him and said no. Remember, Voldemort is an accomplished Ligilimens/Occlumens as well. When Snape came a calling Dumbledore let him in with open arms. Although, apparently he was turned down the first time as well because he was still in the employ of Voldemort. He came in after Lily and James died.

DD gave many allusions that he would die. He believed that he wasn't as much of a use than Harry. We never knew what the hell the potion he was drinking was doing it. I, also think that of them all in the Order DD knew that the only one to be able to do it would be snape. In addition I think this was what DD asked if Snape was prepared to do, what he asked at the end of book four. Being a spy is easy. Risking it all and doing anything, literally anything to stay within the DE ranks. DD always thought the young were more important than he. Saving Draco would have been one of his goals. And given that Snape also believes that in the end there is nothing that anyone could do for him, he would be the obvious choice. Also given the fact that no one implicity would trust him would also make him the perfect person to kill DD. It would complete the cover.

However, you cannot do an Unforgivable without meaning it. On one hand you could mean it if it would mean your cover and DD has told him to do it. On the other, he could be out for himself. Or, he could be doing it to save Draco. One thing is for sure, Snape is now the closest to Voldemort as possible for anyone to be.

There are certain things that need to be sacraficed for the good of all. DD believed this and sacraficed his own life and Snape as well to be able to in the end possibly kill Voldemort. Even if Snape was still evil, it would take bravery to kill the greatest wizard ever for his master.

forgive me if I repeat anything anyone has already stated, as I just skimmed some of the posts...

I, and many others I imagine, think that Snape made the Unbreakable Vow because Dumbledore ordered him to do so, in order to sway the DE that were timid about Snape, like Lestrange, that he was only on the DE and LV's side...

Also, as Harry and DD were making there way up to the castle, the only person DD wanted to see, or requested to see, was Snape, as to not ruin the master plan. We also see that when Snape emerges in DD office he stops to survey the situation and hesitates, waits for DD's order to carry out the task at hand, and then kills DD. Later, right before Snape escapes he has a fight with Harry, although its not really a fight, Snape blocks Harry's feeble attempts and eggs him on, in a most teacher-like way, to try harder and to focus his mind. Snape had every chance to cast a spell on Harry, not to kill but to maim or weaken him for LV, but did not attempt to do so. Finally, Harry calls Snape a coward for killing his parents and Snape in his livid repsonse gives the appearance that he is most regretful of having to kill DD, and is trying to non-verbally communicate that Harry is not aware of the entire truth of the situation...

I am having a hard time caring why Snape killed Dumbledore. He did it, and that firmly puts him Death Eater territory. As for sacrificing himself, I totally believe that is something DD would do, but in this case what good came from it? The only wizard that Voldemort is afraid of is dead, Harry is on his own with the remainder of the horcruxes to find and destroy by himself, Hogwarts and the Order are leaderless and Draco and his mother are still Death Eaters.

As for Snape, in the entire series I have never seen a redeemable quality in him that Dumbledore did not force out of him. I believe that he was just as Draco said he was- a Death Eater spy. By killing DD he did not choose which side he was on- he had already made up his mind- by killing Dumbledore he announced his allegiance to the Dark Lord.

sorry left this little tidbit out...

We also know that DD has said, I believe on more than one occasion, that he does not fear death and considers it the next step...

Not fearing death does not mean you walk into it willingly, especially when there is so much left to do in life.

DD apparently took it willingly in order for the Order (sorry) to succeed in its ultimate goal, killing off LV and the DE's... DD deemed his life, or death in this case, as a worty sacrifice, so that LV would'nt kill Draco and his mother or suspect Snape of betrayal...

Brace yorselves. people, WE ARE BRILLIANT!!!! We have it all figured out...

Ready? Here it is: Dumbledore's not dead.

Reason 1: So, Dumbledore's not dead; who did die? Because whoever was with Harry and froze him behind the door had to die for the body bind to be lifted. We believe that Wormtail was "Dumbledore" in the tower, using polyjuice potion, or something similar. The main reason is that Rowling mentions that Wormtail was sent to help/stay with Snape. She does not drop details with no reason. Then, Wormtail has a silver right arm and Dumbledore's hurt arm was his right as well. We believe the transformation would not be complete or effective on a magic arm. Thus, it is always black and deformed- never to heal.

Reason2: Wormtail owes Harry for sparing his life, thus compelling him to help Dumbledore and consequently Harry. Also, Wormtail would have opportunities to prtect and help Harry to repay his life debt.

Reason 3: "Dumbledore" acts unusually in the cave and the tower. Dumbledore knows the cave unusually well. Perhaps Wormtail was with Voldemort when he hid the Horcrux locket. Thus "Dumbledore" knows how everything works, to a degree. Also, in the cave under the influence of the poison, Dumbledore begs to be tortured, "No, I can't I can't don't make me I don't want to..." "Don't hurt them, please. It's my fault hurt me instead". These seem suspiciously like things Wormtail would say at the attack of the Potters. In the Tower, Dumbledore would fight for his life. Instead he finally pleads with Snape, a much more groveling, Wormtail type reaction. Dumbledore would not plead. Ever.

Reason 4: Here's what Dumbledoe says to Malfoy in the tower as Malfoy is trying to make himself kill Dmbledore. "He cannot kill you if you are already dead. Come over to the right side and we can hide you more completely than you can possibly imagine." This proves they have the capability to fake death and hide people. ALso, who to fake a death than Wormtail; he's done it twice already! We know Dumbledore is good at hiding as well. He hid in the fifth book after he got Umbridged-out of Hogwarts.

Reason 5: The first time Harry spends with Dumbledore to go recruit Slughorn, Dumbledore mentions that Harry didn't check to see if it was really him. Thus the question about his favorite flavor of jam. Dumbledore said that he would always do his research before turning into anyone. Dumbledore would do his homework and could help someone else pretend to be him. It could even have been Wormtail then saying he had prepared to imitate Dumbedore.

Reason 6: Dumbledore's absenses: perfect for switching back and forth between people. And the large vat of polyjuice in the Potions room is somewhat convenient. And there are absences between Harry's lessons, but a lesson always follows one absence. Dumbledore could have wanted to always be the one teaching Harry. There was the one occation when they looked at Dumbledore's memory. Why was it in a vile? Why didn't he take it out of his head as he had before? Maybe on that occation, it wasn't Dumbledore.

Reason 7: Dumbledore is hardly ever wrong. He had to have a reason to trust Snape. Also, Snape could be in on the dual identity, while none of the others of the Order were told. Snape is the only one who can lie to Voldemort, skilled at occulmency. If someone were to know and keep the secret safe, the best person would be Snape. Then Snape would have know it was not Dumbledore in the tower- he probably would have been only to pleased to kill Wormtail. Sanpe still flfilled the unbreakable vow. He finished the task Malfoy heasitated to do- he never vowed to kill Dumbledore specifically, only to finish Malfoy's plan.

Ok, that about does it. Bask in the brilliance of TheWierdSisters!!!!!
Let us know what you think.
Good night, good luck, and tip your waitresses, we'll be here all week...

My theory is that Snape isn't evil. He simply cannot be, because Dumbledore trusted him. From a moral point of view... I mean, think about it, what kind of messages is Rowling portraying by Voldemort being right to trust and Dumbledore being wrong? We all know that Rowling goes around trust, loyalty etc. etc. In my mind, it doesn't fit that after all that, after Snape having a messed up childhood and a messed up life, after doing something (obviously more then what Dumbledore told Harry) that made Dumbledore trust him that he turns evil.

Secondly, Dumbledore would NOT plea for life. For death, yes, maybe, but not for life. All throughout the series, he has never feared death. He has mentioned it, I believe, as a weakness of Voldemort's. To him, death is nothing but the next great adventure. He didn't fear it, and he knew to go out doing something useful. If Dumbledore was pleaing for life, as some seem to believe, he would have been depending on Snape to protect him. Snape would be murdered by Voldemort when Voldy caught wind of Snape's treachary. Dumbledore would NOT make Snape sacrifice himself to let Dumbledore live.

Dumbledore also knew that Draco isn't a bad person, he is a good soul growing up in the wrong family. The way he has been raised made him be a nasty little twit, just as it was the way he had been raised that made him think that serving Voldemort was his rightful path. But we all know he couldn't do it. He will ally with Harry, in the end. When the other Death Eaters entered the room, Dumbledore had no choice but to die. If Dumbledore lived, Draco would be killed by Voldemort because he of his incompitence as a killer. He most likely will be punished, though probably not killed, for hesitating as it is.

As for the look on Snape's face, Snape does not show emoticon well, we all know that. Perhaps that was just his way of showing how unhappy he was at the task ahead of him. He couldn't look sad in front of the other Death Eaters now, could he? And besides, if he looked sad, JK Rowling would have made it WAY too obvious what side he was on. She wants us to agonize over the matter. Just like this.

As has already been pointed out, Snape's first priority after he did away with Dumbledore was to get himself and Draco out of the place.

And that coward thing, well, that's almost a give away. Dumbledore might just have been the only person who ever cared for Snape. Imagine if you'd just had to kill the only person who loved you (and we have to remember that Dumbledore loved almost everyone) and then you had some sort of numbskull 16-year-old that you hated telling you that you were a coward? I'd be pretty angry, wouldn't you? Would you just feel like hexing the bejesus outta him? I would.

Another important factor that has already been mentioned is that Voldemort wouldn't give a **** who killed Harry if he didn't have that lingering threat hanging over him. Voldemort wants power, and Harry is a nasty little obstacle he would probably rather not face.

As for the debate that Snape and Dumbledore had earlier in the book, that could very well have been Dumbledore warning Snape that he couldn't risk himself or Draco just to keep himself alive. Who knows, maybe Dumbledore made him make an Unbreakable Vow that he would kill Dumbledore if he had to.

My assorted thoughts on the subject.

Ack. Now I have to edit. TheWeirdSisters, that is really quite brilliant. That would certainly explain the look on Snape's face before he murdered the fake Dumbledore.
But I still think Dumbledore is dead. What about Fawkes? Fawkes would know if Dumbledore was dead. What about the portrait? Dumbledore wouldn't have put it there to trick his order. Why would he want to do that? And the funeral. Wouldn't the Polyjuice potion wear off? If it didn't, when Dumbledore died, there would be TWO Dumbledore skeletons. That's a little too weird. Also, something about a phoenix coming out of the ashes... I don't think Wormtail deserved a phoenix. And besides... it was time Dumbledore died. Just that.

I can only think that Dumbledore wanted to save Draco's innocense. What was with that potion though? It made Dumbledore say some very odd things. He kind of sounded like a child experiencing a nightmare or something...

Er, anyway. I also think that Snape is still on the side of "good" sort of... There's just so much that's been done with his character! That arguement probably was in regards to the thing Dumbledore was asking Snape to do (or ordering him) and that was to kill Dumbledore because Snape had told him about that Unbreakable Vow.

As for when the death actually happened, the stuff about how an unforgivable curse is to be succesfully used. Snape probably hated Dumbledore deeply for making him kill him. Don't they have to actually hate the person who the spell is being cast on?

A last question: aren't there limitations to communication with the wizards in the portraits?

Yeah, not a thorough reply but I'm tired! I must go to sleep... (nods off)

interesting theory weird sisters, perhaps Wormtail was DD and was the under the Imperius Curse as to act cooly as DD does... however, forgive my saying this but your theory seems to be a bit of a ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------stretch...

TheWierdSisters,
Woah... is that possible? That sounds like a pretty darned good theory! My minds a bit fuzzy about the arm part though... So, does he rid himself of the arm or just a faulty transformation? Wow, something to think about! Oh no, another sleepless night, lol...

But didn't JKR say that there wouldn't be any "miraculous character returns" or something like that?

im going to have to agree that there is something deeper here then snape killing dumbledore, thus becoming the second-in-command death eater. Im going to try to touch on points I think deserve more light.

First of all, this left Snape in the closest position possible to Voldemort, as someone said earlier. However, I really doubt Snape will aid Harry in any way whatsoever up until the final confrontation. Not only is it dramatically nice, its a position nobody could ever be in - even a wizard as strong as dumbledore could not get as deep in to the death eaters and help deliver the final blow.

Secondly, Draco has become a very interesting character in the book. He went from a flat, stereotypically mean kid with an evil father to something more. He's mean, but he is not evil. Clearly we have reason to believe Draco is potentially very powerful, he is doing advanced magic early and has very strong determination but he still has a sense of compassion buried within him. Dumbledore knew this. Voldemort knew this; this is why Draco was assigned the seemingly impossible task of killing DD. Voldemort knew once Draco killed someone he would be under his complete control... Draco is controlled by the fear of voldemort, of course there must be a great lingering hatred for him buried deep inside for threatening his family.

Im predicting that narcissa will end up dead as punishment for draco's inability to finish the job, and this anger could unite him with harry against voldemort by the end of the novel, which of course we are all expecting to happen one way or another. If Draco were to destroy dumbledore, there wouldn't be this hatred and draco wouldn't have as much left to fight for. Dramatically more fun for the readers, and come on, Harry and Draco have to unite against voldy, its been growing for 6 books now.

so bassically the scenario im describing: Narcissa/Snape seal their pact. Snape understands he now must kill DD or the hope in draco is lost. Snape and Dumbledore mutually understand this, and on top of the tower with Dumbledore's plea, Snape is the one to kill him. Draco is saved the burden of taking another human soul, draco's rage against voldemort grows despite him being further drawn in as a Death Eater. Narcissa is killed, possibly infront of Draco, as punishment. His rage goes to an extreme, he begins calculating how he can fight back and of course needs to turn to Harry. Snape meanwhile is in the position of second in command, and when the final battle happens we will see another change in sides. Draco, Harry and snape will manage to finish the deal. Harry will probably end up dead too, but thats another topic altogether~!

it wouldnt be a miraculous return if he never really died now would it...

MOD EDIT: No one-liner is allowed here. Please read the rules. Thanks.

It is an interesting theory that DD is not really dead, and one that I would like to believe. But I think he is dead for two reasons. One as soon as DD dies the portrait appears in the headmaster’s office magically and two is Fawkes the Phoenix. Fawkes is incredibly loyal and powerful in his own way and I don’t think anything could have fooled him. After DD dies Fawkes sings his song and flies off.

I, unfortunately believe that DD is dead. It was just time and in the Master/Apprentice stories, it just happens this way. It's now time for Harry to find the true power within himself. I wouldn't be suprised that the next book started with a quest of somesort (oh wait. Horcruxes...) besides that a quest within himself.

Snape and DD have an intresting relationship. Snape had no emotional upbringing. He could have been the bookworm I envision himself as. But, as his homelife suggests, he learned nothing of emotions.

The closest to a father was Dumbledore. Although, it was too late for him to make this emotions his own there was a bond there. Something for Snape I doubt anyone could emulate. In effect DD was like the father he never had. I kind of think he killed DD on his orders because DD trusts no one else. But the revulsion was against himself becuause of what he had to do.