In OotP, Harry and Ron discuss that after the Occlumency lessons harry's scar hurts worse, and that either Harry or Ron (can't remember who) thinks that maybe Snape isn't really helping Harry close his mind, that maybe he is opening his mind to make it easier for Voldemort to penetrate. Well, now that we apparently know who's side Snape is on, what is Harry and Ron are right? What if Snape really did open up harry's mind further so that Voldemort could get in easier?
Your thoughts please?
Delete this if it's a double, please mods.
Full Version: Harry Right About Snape's Occlumency Lessons?
Well, I think he did not try to open Harry's mind wider. He didn't need to, as Voldemort could have done it better on his own. If he did, it was during the private occlumency lessons, but only for educational purposes.
I think hovever, that he carried out the task of teaching Harry occlumency very involuntarinly (imagine, teching to protect himself the son of one of your greatest foes, Snape does not forgive easiily, if any at all) and used the pensieve incident to quit it. Eventually,the job proved to be performed poorly. Is it possible that he saboted the lessons on purpose? That would point that he was the traitor.
I think hovever, that he carried out the task of teaching Harry occlumency very involuntarinly (imagine, teching to protect himself the son of one of your greatest foes, Snape does not forgive easiily, if any at all) and used the pensieve incident to quit it. Eventually,the job proved to be performed poorly. Is it possible that he saboted the lessons on purpose? That would point that he was the traitor.
That's exactly the point i was trying to make when I typed out that post. You just worded it better.
Yes, I agree, now that we know that Snape is a traitor, that Snape didn't try and help Harry close his mind;he in fact, sabotaged the lessons and made it a little bit easier for Voldemort to enter into.
Yes, I agree, now that we know that Snape is a traitor, that Snape didn't try and help Harry close his mind;he in fact, sabotaged the lessons and made it a little bit easier for Voldemort to enter into.
I really don't think Snape is a traitor. There is a lot more to that tower scene than we know about. Was Dumbledore pleading for his life...I really don't think so.
Here's my surprise...I really think Snape made an unbreakable vow with Dumbledore. What was it about, I think it was to always follow Dumbledore's orders. I think that's why he always trusted Snape so much. Let the speculation begin.
Here's my surprise...I really think Snape made an unbreakable vow with Dumbledore. What was it about, I think it was to always follow Dumbledore's orders. I think that's why he always trusted Snape so much. Let the speculation begin.
Yes, indeed, but not in this thread which would be off topic...
This one is for occlumancy possibly opening Harry's mind...there are other threads for you to discuss Snape and Dumbledore.
This one is for occlumancy possibly opening Harry's mind...there are other threads for you to discuss Snape and Dumbledore.
harry will go back to hw for a few reasons,i personaly think hw will b where harry and voldy fight it out in the end.there is also a pic of dd in the heads office that if i am not mistaken could help harry.
thomthom....that post is in the completely wrong thread....sorry
You can find where you should have posted your post here.
You can find where you should have posted your post here.
I think he was trying to open Harry's mind further.
I don't think Severus is evil at all. I don't think it's possible to open a mind like that and then, Voldy ended up using Occlumency against Harry in the end...so, I dunno. Plus, Severus was being watched by DD...and I don't think it's wise to do something like that when DD is being very protective of Harry.
Plus, the only reason DD let Severus take the job wasa 'cause DD couldn't face Harry. Remember? DD even said that her thought he could handle it, but his hatred for Harry got to the better of him.
Plus, the only reason DD let Severus take the job wasa 'cause DD couldn't face Harry. Remember? DD even said that her thought he could handle it, but his hatred for Harry got to the better of him.
i don't think that Harry was right. Snape told him to relax and to practise. Harry didn't practise. To get rid of emotions-Snape said- because Harry should control his emotions. legilimency isn't reading minds in fact. it's more of extracting emotions. And LV extracted emotions: one special emotion, about Sirius, I believe. I understand that LV's action would be more difficult, if Harry had emptied his mind of all emotions before sleeping, so that LV souldn't feel nothing except not important things in Harry's sleep.
I think that Snape didn't try to open Harry's mind further, but that it went that way. Harry didn't practise, and he hated Snape so much that he didn't relax when Snape told him to do so. But it wasn't just Harry's fault: Snape hated him and his father so much, that he didn't really want Harry to manage it. He made Harry's Occlumency lessons to a real nightmare. They hate eachother so much that it couldn't work no matter how much they tried. At least that is what I think about it 
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Well back when the OotP came out I always thought this. To sum it all up, Snape hates Harry and would do anything to pay back Harry's father for what he did to Snape. I believe that when DD let Snape do the lessons instead of him was an old mans mistake. He said it himself that he shouldn't have let Snape teach Harry because of all of the problems between James and Snape back when they were in school.
In the OotP, I think Snape was working for the order then and now I'm not sure. Therefore, I don't think that he was trying to weaken Harry and open his mind to DD. Although, I think Voldemort knew that Harry and him had a connection so it wasn't that hard for him.
In the OotP, I think Snape was working for the order then and now I'm not sure. Therefore, I don't think that he was trying to weaken Harry and open his mind to DD. Although, I think Voldemort knew that Harry and him had a connection so it wasn't that hard for him.
| QUOTE (bubotuber_pus @ Sep 5 2005, 12:02 PM) |
| i don't think that Harry was right. Snape told him to relax and to practise. Harry didn't practise. To get rid of emotions-Snape said- because Harry should control his emotions. legilimency isn't reading minds in fact. it's more of extracting emotions. And LV extracted emotions: one special emotion, about Sirius, I believe. I understand that LV's action would be more difficult, if Harry had emptied his mind of all emotions before sleeping, so that LV souldn't feel nothing except not important things in Harry's sleep. |
I think legilimency means also seeing scenes with other’s eyes. Harry could see a lot thru LV eyes, and also thru Snape’s eyes, when he tried it once. Cleaning his mind of emotions was not a useful tip, because Harry was very, very upset and tormented, he was always very worried too. Snape was asking Harry actually to stop breathing! Anyway, LV could always attack Harry when he was falling asleep, and that’s the time of the day when you have much less emotions than normally. Maybe Snape’s way worked by Snape, it could never work by Harry. I don’t go so far to say Snape was doing it by purpose, I think he simply hates Harry and enjoys the feeling that he can make Harry feel weak and unworthy.
During the lessons, he used every opportunity to make Harry angry. A teenager can hardly ever learn something from a teacher he hates (this was one of the big mistakes DD made, overseeing this fact), and he could definitely never clear his mind, Snape never gave him the time or the opportunity to do so. Harry has being attacked the whole time; he had to be at his guard. It needs a lot of shutting down your feelings to master Oclumency, and that seems the opposite of the ability to love. It sounds to me, you can’t have both.
I was always under impression that DD was a great legilimens, but not a great oclumens. And he has had more than 100 years time to practice. Why? Because of his great ability to love.
You're right when you say that Snape by making Harry angry made it more difficult for him to calm down his thoughts. Snape hated Harry and I think that's the reason he did it. Also he should have told Harry about the "protego!" charm.
One idea: when you're attacked by LV, he doesn't give you time to get rid of all emotions.
And this contact by eyes: we know there will be something revealed about Lily's eyes. Maybe Harry inherited her eyes together with a gift.
One idea: when you're attacked by LV, he doesn't give you time to get rid of all emotions.
And this contact by eyes: we know there will be something revealed about Lily's eyes. Maybe Harry inherited her eyes together with a gift.
| QUOTE (bubotuber_pus @ Sep 6 2005, 01:48 AM) |
| And this contact by eyes: we know there will be something revealed about Lily's eyes. Maybe Harry inherited her eyes together with a gift. |
How about that:
Harry inherited her ability to see the beauty in anyone, even, or especially if the one was not able to see it himself. Harry spared Wormtail’s life. He showed us that he was ready to forgive Draco, because he saw him crying in the toilette and because he saw him lowering his wand.
Maybe it shows that he can forgive Snape (he even didn’t try to kill him when he was highly enraged) if Snape was handling on DD’s orders. He might be even able to vanquish LV without killing him.
| QUOTE (bubotuber_pus @ Sep 6 2005, 01:48 AM) |
| One idea: when you're attacked by LV, he doesn't give you time to get rid of all emotions. |
That’s true, but you can’t start learning with the most difficult part. You didn’t start reading with Kant, for example. Harry was highly emotional during his 5th year, he had a lot to endure, and it would be too much for anyone to cope with. He needed the slow approach, and than getting to the more difficult part. And Snape making wicked remarks about the dog hunting Harry didn’t help him at all. If he had the opportunity to study Occlumancy from DD or Lupin for example, he could have been more relaxed and more willing to practice.
| QUOTE (kathrina @ Sep 7 2005, 06:24 AM) |
| |
How about that:
Harry inherited her ability to see the beauty in anyone, even, or especially if the one was not able to see it himself. Harry spared Wormtail’s life. He showed us that he was ready to forgive Draco, because he saw him crying in the toilette and because he saw him lowering his wand.
Maybe it shows that he can forgive Snape (he even didn’t try to kill him when he was highly enraged) if Snape was handling on DD’s orders. He might be even able to vanquish LV without killing him.
I definitely like it!
That’s true, but you can’t start learning with the most difficult part. You didn’t start reading with Kant, for example. Harry was highly emotional during his 5th year, he had a lot to endure, and it would be too much for anyone to cope with. He needed the slow approach, and than getting to the more difficult part.
You're right, of course. I only tried to point out that Snape has to cope with LV without no time to prepare himself for Occlumency. And we know that Snape always has high expectations from his students... so it's Snape-ish to do the lesson that way (he did similar things while teaching during his DADA lessons. I think that he should say about the "Protego!" charm, but he didn't.
i don't think that snape open more the mind of harry to let voldemort to enter, but i think he neither want to help harry, he was just doing what dumbuldure said. if the really want to help harry he continue teaching him occlumancy during his detention in the HBP...
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