Hi, after the very interesting discussion about who snape is betraying most of us agreed that Dumbledore gave orders to Snape that the latter had to kill him. My question is why did Dumbledore had to die? Was is pure sacrifice or could he propaply have been sick? Dumbledore's explanation to Harry about his burned hand wasn't really good enough for me, so...

I know that this question came up in the Snape discussions but I thought ( because I'm very interested in this theory) that this point of view should have a forum of its own.
I just have this feeling that Dumbledore wasn't healthy anymore.

What do you think?

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I'm terribly sorry, I forgot to do that, sorry.

...what if it was a potion to change someone into an inferi...so he told Snape to kill him in his thoughts so as not to turn into one. However, it wouldn't tie into what Dumbledore and Snape were arguing about before...or would it?

no it wouldn't but the arguing could go with it if DD was sick, wouldn't it? But it's just a feeling I just don't thibk that all the hand business is unimportant, I think it has something to do with DD getting killed.

What do you think?

Guess it would tie into the hand thing, since he didn't know about the potion before. Dumbledore also seemed to have a plan when he came back from the cave that didn't have to do with the potion as well, just something that got in the way...potentially could have turned him into something or just went away...anything could have happened from drinking it, but he was most likely about the hand. Also, what about the beginning...Spinner's End...Snape said that Dumbledore was injured while battling Voldemort at the MoM...?

Oh I actually forgot about that. But you're right. So maybe DD has been terribly hurt in this battle and he knew that he had to die anyway and ordered Snape to kill him if the latter had to, which he did for not to show that he was on the good side. I wonder what DD actually had, if he had something, and if we'll get to know it in book 7.

I dont think the hand would have made him terribly sick. I would say he was greatly weakened by the potion he was force fed. But even then I dont think he would have lost to the death eaters if he hadnt spent the last second petrifying harry. GO DUMBLEDORE!

Yes, thats what I said at first too, but it wouldn't fit in with what Snape and Dumbledore were arguing about...if the argument was about Snape having to kill Dumbledore, it doesn't work since he didn't know about the potion before...it would have to be the hand thing, that injury when he was battling Voldemort or something else prior to the argument with Snape...assuming the argument was about Snape killing Dumbledore

assuming the argument about snape killing DD I'm convinced that it was because of the hand. And after all we didn't get a all convincing explanation why dds hand didn't get well anymore. But what could it have been? Was it really 'just' an injury (maybe done by very, very strong black magic) or sickness?

hey did anybody read about another amazing theory regarding snape and dumbledore and the polyjuice potion ?it says dd transforms into snape and it is actually snape dying.i personally dont agree .anyay ppl actually thought dat snape isnt a bad egg after all. for all e noe he might not be.
he probably killed dumbledore on HIS order.so that voldy trusts snape AGAIN and then he ill betray LV to help harry in the end. otherise y ould JKR make us feel sorry for snape in the fifth book.

I don0t believe in the polyjuice theory. DD wouldn't use the adava kedavra spell, only dark wizards do that - at least I think they do.

yes I think he/she meant that. James and Sirius were pretty mean to Snape so we all felt sorry for him. Didn't you?

This post was written by ipod but it has been moved here as it seems to fit better.

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one questoin that popped into my mind was why dumbledore couldn't save himself even though he didn't have a wand. wizards and witches can perform magic without their wands, right? we saw harry vanish the glass, and dumbledore slow harry down when he was falling from the quiditch match. why couldn't he do something of the same effect to malfoy when they were alone to save himself. and, what bothers me most is why he wanted to go see snape when they got back from the cave. he said he needed to see snape instead of madam pomfrey like harry said. what is going on?
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Was DD's injured hand his wand hand? Because if it was, then it was probably a direct result of his battle with Voldemort in the MoM at the end of the 5th book. I'm thinking that the magic between them would have been incredibly strong, after all, I think DD and Voldy are probably the most powerful wizards in the world. The magical pressure between them would have been so strong that maybe some of one of Voldy's curses slipped into DD's hand through his wand, or maybe one of his own did. Or maybe it has something to do with using a lot of powerful magic all at once, like a writer's cramp, but magical. Since DD was getting old, the effects of this would be longer lasting than in a younger wizard.
It makes sence that DD would ask to see Snape upon getting back from the cave - he just drank an unknown potion, and potions are Snape's specialty. Madam Pomfery is just the school nurse, after all, and this was probably way out of her field.
There was no way DD would have been able to save himself on the tower without blowing Snape's cover (I think Snape is still loyal to DD), or killing Malfoy, which DD would never have done.

ok im new to this whole thing but bare with me, i really do think that snape was ordered to kill dd but i think theres sumthing that everyone is overlookin. this may be a very log stretch but wat if that truly wasnt dd. remember in the second chp when they had wormtail serving snape. why was wormtail there? why would the have such an important character in 2nd chp and never bring him back. wat was the point of wormtail being there? and wat about wormtails hand
wormtails hand was bandaged and dd was dead could there be a connection? could wormtail possibly have taken polyjuice potion and pretended to be dd? i kno this is a huge stretch and im prally just tryin to cling on to the hope that dd isnt dead but are there any other thoughts on wormtails short appearance and the significanec of it?

I think that Snape's main job is to administer the Draught of Living Death that we have all encountered in Book 1 when Harry first meets Snape in the Poyions class. According to Snape..." Asphodel and wormwood make a sleeping potion so powerful it is known as the Draught of Living Death..." That would probably explain why in HBP, Dumbledore's painting showed him as sound asleep...

That would probably explain why Dumbledore was slipping when he was at the Astronomy Tower with Malfoy. Although, I do now know if this is also a direct result of DD drinking the Potion from the cave...

This has been mentioned before that what if wormtail drank poly juice potion and became DD but we must remember also the other stuff that JKR puts in her book like for instance snape is chosen to work both sides as he is very powerfull at acclumance (hope i spelled it right)so he can lie with a stright face to LV and he wont know anything LV but wormtail on the other hand is so afraid of LV that he will be killed before he knew it cause he wont be able to lie to LV also in chapter two i think theey mention Wormtails hand (shiney and silver)
the hand LV gave him for bringing him back and helping him

also about DD i think that this was planned for him to die or to fack his death as in the chapter with slughorn

slug says he is old and that DD is older than him and DD should also think of retirement like he has and DD says you are right
big clue DD knew about the vow and was planning his retirement so to speak

i think that the reason DD told snape to kill him was because he was dieing from the black hand. and even snapes potion(i think he was giving him one) wasnt working. so DD ordered snape to do this and continue being spy. i would have thought though if it was pre planned other members or the order would have known about this, which it seemed liek they didnt, but that might have been all an act also.

I don't think Dumbledore was ill but I do think he was very agitated. We learn this when Harry was in his office (I forget which time) and when Harry doesn't Slughorn's Horcrux Memory. This seems, to me anyway, that he wants himself and Harry to learn as much as possible before someting happens....and something does happen as we all know.

I'm not sure that Dumbledore was ill.

But I think he felt himself older after the events in the MoM. According to him, he misjudged something because he just saw it through an old man's eyes.

And he could feel himself weaker and more vulnerable.

Well, that's a thought ...

umm....i'm new here and i just wanted to state my opinion..i think that dumbledore didnt die because i think he told snape to kill him and that knew that r.a.b. took the horcrux. i also think that he told snape that harry wuld be in the corner or where ever he was to take the spell off of him. i think that because dumbledore faked his own death that he could look 4 the horcruxes in peace. that is my opinion.


-susie

i personally think that snape is on dumbledores side because i think that snape was giving them inside info on voldomort and his wheARABOUTS. antway i dont think that dumbledore is dead. i think he id faking it.

-susie

I agree with some of the points made in this thread! I definitley think that Dumbledore wasnt sick and that the blackened hand was the result of one of the enchantments surrounding the ring.

We know that Dumbledore would do anything to stop LV. I mean not only did he sacrifice his hand but he also sacrificed his life on 2 seperate occassions. I believe he had no clue as to what the potion in the cave would do but he was willing to accept the consequences, even if it was death. Obviously after that we had the scene at the tower were he, I believe willingly gave up his life.

Alot of people think that Dumbledore was too weak to defend himself. That drinking the potion severly diminished his capability to perform the magic nessassary to save himself. I disagree. As DD and Harry were flying on the brooms towards the castle, Harry heard Dumbledore murmur incantations to himself obviously lifting the protection that surrounded the school at that point. If he was able to do that, he certainly would have been able to perform a simple non verbal spell or even Accio Wand, when Draco knocked it out of his hand. Surely lifting protection that surrounded a huge school and its grounds required alot more energy than a simple spell to retrieve his wand!!!!

I believe the events that unfolded that night was all planned by both Dumbledore and Snape. I also don't believe that Dumbedore would confide in the rest of the OoTP about his plan. I mean he didnt tell anyone else, besides Harry about the Horcruxes!

I hope I posted this in the right thread. I've been shying away from writing any replies to threads in case it was in the wrong one!

"Time and space matter in magic, Potter." Dumbledore's wand fell off the tower. It was probably too far to be summoned using Accio. I do agree with you that Dumbledore willingly gave up his life. I think he knew what was going to happen before the door opened to the tower.

well maybe Dumbledore knew he was dying and sacrificed his life to protect harry like his mother did, and protect harry with another ancient magic of love. Maybe thats what dumbledore was telling harry that Ld hasnt got...if you no what i mean lol

I dont think DD hand would have made him all that sick.. even though he was old i dont think it would have that much of an effect on him. I just think he died because he told snape to kill him. for what reason i have no0o idea!

I believe DD was dying already when killed by snape because of the effects of the potion that he drank.HE was weak and I believe that could not conjure magic.

oh my there is so much going on in this thread i dont know where to start.

first off i think that DD death was planned between DD and Snape. I believe DD had to die at the hands of Snape to prove to Voldy that Snape was true and so that Draco wouldnt have to go through with it or die. I'm not sure about DD's hand. I was very unhapy with his "explanation" of what happened. I think that maybe the ring wounded DD badly. Like when Ginny had TR diary it slowly sucked the life out of her. I'm sure when DD went to detroy the ring he got a lot of bad magic forced upon him. (i wonder what he did to destroy it. he must hav stuck his hand into something while wearing the ring) I also dont know anything about DD being wounded after his duel iwth Voldy but if he lasted a whole other year i'm sure it wasnt too bad. DD was obviously weakened by the potion he drank in HBP but i dont think that would have stopped him from defending himslef. and even if he was too weak to preform proper magic we didnt even see him trying. DD would never give up without a fight unless it was part of the plan. And DD could have accio'd his wand. i dont think it would have been too far away. If Harry can accio his broom from inside the castle then DD could have accio'd his wand if he really wanted to.

Dumbledore had to die. it was time for harry to be on his own. that is why he finally told harry about the horcruxse, because he wouldn't be around himself to look for them. if everyone had looked close enough before the 6th book came out then we might have even discovered that Dumbeldore was going to die. it seems that now that i know all signs point to him and it being his time to go.

i believe he was sick, he after all drank the potion knowing exactly what it would do to him and still he drank it and he new snape was going to kill him, so he must of bein dying to let snape go through with it.