Please read razzberry's original post here before replying though...thanks.
Okay...carry on!
Full Version: Who Is Snape Really Betraying? - Thread 2
I don´t know it it has already been stated, but i got the idea that Dumbledore maybe isn´t dead. I know everyone of the wizards and witches in the book say that he is dead. But in book 5 Bellatrix Lestrange said to Harry in the foyer of the ministry that you have to mean a unforgiveable curse to make damage. What if Snape didn´t want to harm Dumbledore???
When I first finished the book, I was nearly sure Snape is really evil. But then I thought it's too easy...
And now I'm convinced Snape is still on Dumbledore's side, for many reasons, some of them you've already said:
Dumbledore wouldn't beg for his life, he "begged for his death", he actually would say: "Severus, please kill me!" I can't guess why Dumbledore wanted Snape to kill him, but I'm sure he had his reasons.
Snape was giving an advice to Harry while he was fleeing. He told Harry to "keep his mouth shut and his mind closed" or his spells will be blocked. He actually helped Harry, and then stopped a Death Eater torturing Harry, saying it's the Dark Lord's job.
I think I know why Dumbledore didn't give the DADA job to Snape before: he knew the job's jinxed, and he wanted to keep Snape in Hogwarts.
And an idea from the third book, chapter ten: Fudge says "a useful spy" of Dumbledore told him You-Know-Who wants tho kill the Potters. Couldn't it be Snape? Or if it wasn't him, who else was it?
Now I believe that Snape, though not a kind man, is not Voldemort's agent.
And now I'm convinced Snape is still on Dumbledore's side, for many reasons, some of them you've already said:
Dumbledore wouldn't beg for his life, he "begged for his death", he actually would say: "Severus, please kill me!" I can't guess why Dumbledore wanted Snape to kill him, but I'm sure he had his reasons.
Snape was giving an advice to Harry while he was fleeing. He told Harry to "keep his mouth shut and his mind closed" or his spells will be blocked. He actually helped Harry, and then stopped a Death Eater torturing Harry, saying it's the Dark Lord's job.
I think I know why Dumbledore didn't give the DADA job to Snape before: he knew the job's jinxed, and he wanted to keep Snape in Hogwarts.
And an idea from the third book, chapter ten: Fudge says "a useful spy" of Dumbledore told him You-Know-Who wants tho kill the Potters. Couldn't it be Snape? Or if it wasn't him, who else was it?
Now I believe that Snape, though not a kind man, is not Voldemort's agent.
| QUOTE |
| (Peekaboo @ Jul 20 2005, 09:50 AM) I don´t know it it has already been stated, but i got the idea that Dumbledore maybe isn´t dead. I know everyone of the wizards and witches in the book say that he is dead. But in book 5 Bellatrix Lestrange said to Harry in the foyer of the ministry that you have to mean a unforgiveable curse to make damage. What if Snape didn´t want to harm Dumbledore??? |
I wasn't quite sure Sirius died when I read OotP, but now I'm sure Dumbledore died. I mean, the corpse was found. Who on earth was buried if it was not Dumbledore. I have already told my opinion about Snape killing Dumbledore, but Dd must be dead!
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I've read most to all of the original posts, one of the most FAQ's was "How is Snape going to convince the order he acted on Dumbledores orders?" Well I don't think Snape will. You ask "where is the proof?" well Remember Dumbledores Pensieve? Or maybe Dumbledores Portrait? I have no doubt that one or both of these will convince the order to keep confiding in Snape, This will probably happen near the beggining of the next book. What do you think?
Dana archived the last thread as I was halfway through it, so I didn't read all of it, but there have been a lot of excellent points. Some of the best I've seen so far are:
* Snape's argument with Dumbledore saying that he was asking too much of him. Dumbledore was asking Snape to save himself and Draco by killing Dumbledore. Making Snape do it may have gained a potential ally against Voldemort--the Malfoy family.
* Snape didn't kill anyone besides Dumbledore, though he had ample opportunity to.
* Snape never attacked Harry--he just defended himself and gave Harry valuable advice.
* Dumbledore talked to Harry as if he would have to find the horcruxes on his own.
Some of my own observations (though, I wouldn't be at all surprised if they've been brought up already):
* JKR knew the main plot even from the beginning--so I'm sure she knew she would write this apparent betrayal into the plot. I think the chess match from PS/SS foreshadowed this aspect of the plot. Ron, who was orchestrating the game, saw that he would have to sacrifice himself in order to win the game. In the same fashion, Dumbledore saw that his death would leave a key player (Snape) in a valuable position.
* Snape didn't hesitate in killing Dumbledore once he had assessed the situation. The other DEs wanted Malfoy to kill Dumbledore because that was what Voldemort had ordered. Snape was disobeying Voldemort's orders by killing Dumbledore. If he was on Voldemort's side he would recognize the value of coaxing the still-impressionable Draco into killing Dumbledore.
* Dumbledore could have prevented all of it by not freezing Harry in his spot. Harry is definitely a match for Draco, so Dumbledore could have retrieved his wand, in which case, I think they could have dealt with the coming DEs.
* JKR ducked the question about whether Snape was evil by saying "You've, read the book. What do you think?" Then, after giving a noncomittal answer, she said that was all she could say about it. She's protective of her plot--when Dumbledore's death was apparently leaked, she told us that we should carry around buckets of salt. She also tried to lay a red herring in her interviews by saying that she had never said a major character would die, only that there would be more deaths.
My last point is that the exact scenario was definitely not planned, since flitwick had to get Snape out of his office.
Sorry for the long post.
* Snape's argument with Dumbledore saying that he was asking too much of him. Dumbledore was asking Snape to save himself and Draco by killing Dumbledore. Making Snape do it may have gained a potential ally against Voldemort--the Malfoy family.
* Snape didn't kill anyone besides Dumbledore, though he had ample opportunity to.
* Snape never attacked Harry--he just defended himself and gave Harry valuable advice.
* Dumbledore talked to Harry as if he would have to find the horcruxes on his own.
Some of my own observations (though, I wouldn't be at all surprised if they've been brought up already):
* JKR knew the main plot even from the beginning--so I'm sure she knew she would write this apparent betrayal into the plot. I think the chess match from PS/SS foreshadowed this aspect of the plot. Ron, who was orchestrating the game, saw that he would have to sacrifice himself in order to win the game. In the same fashion, Dumbledore saw that his death would leave a key player (Snape) in a valuable position.
* Snape didn't hesitate in killing Dumbledore once he had assessed the situation. The other DEs wanted Malfoy to kill Dumbledore because that was what Voldemort had ordered. Snape was disobeying Voldemort's orders by killing Dumbledore. If he was on Voldemort's side he would recognize the value of coaxing the still-impressionable Draco into killing Dumbledore.
* Dumbledore could have prevented all of it by not freezing Harry in his spot. Harry is definitely a match for Draco, so Dumbledore could have retrieved his wand, in which case, I think they could have dealt with the coming DEs.
* JKR ducked the question about whether Snape was evil by saying "You've, read the book. What do you think?" Then, after giving a noncomittal answer, she said that was all she could say about it. She's protective of her plot--when Dumbledore's death was apparently leaked, she told us that we should carry around buckets of salt. She also tried to lay a red herring in her interviews by saying that she had never said a major character would die, only that there would be more deaths.
My last point is that the exact scenario was definitely not planned, since flitwick had to get Snape out of his office.
Sorry for the long post.
I have said since the first book was published that Snape is good. im not denying that he is an uncompromising, vindictive and heartless man by any means, but he is good. I think that this was a prearrenaged agreement that he would kill dumbledore should a similar situation arise. there is numerous evidence throughout the books. i think that this has been done so that harry can take over and fulfill his destiny. i like tha idea of the pensive or his portrait telling people in the order. Harrys not goning to like it one bit, but i think that with no Dumbledore, he is going to need all the help that he can get. lets face it, who else in the book is as gifted in all of the areas that harry needs to be trained, but Snape. Harry is very powerful, but as of yet, untrained. he understands what he needs to do, but at the present, i dont believe that he is capable, hence the way that he paniced in the cave. hes gonna need all the help he can get, and i am almost cetain that this will come, grudgingly on both parts, from Snape
I think that, whether we want to or not, we have to accept that the seemingly impossible has indeed happened - I think Dumbledore really is dead. I doubt very much, however, that we have seen and heard the last of him. His portrait could still hold a useful role in the order. Perhaps it will even still lead the order. Who knows. But I really do think he's dead. The only way I can think of for him not to be dead is if he and someone else had taken polyjuice potion (possibly Snape) so that would mean that Dumbledore is still alive. However, I don't believe that this is possible, because Dumbledore would never consent to that when he knew that whoever looked like Dumbledore would be in grave danger. He would never let anyone die in his place.
Guys can we please stick to the topic? Which is can Snape be trusted basically - all other concerns regarding Dumbledore or what else might happen now can be done in the appropriate threads - of which there are now many.
Thanks.
BTW, Albus-Wan, thanks for that summary... That'll help the newcomers to this thread out a lot... I wish I had the time to pull together summaries like that, but it's a bit chaotic here right now as you can see, so we always appreciate it when a member helps us out by doing things like that, so thanks.
Thanks.
BTW, Albus-Wan, thanks for that summary...
That'll help the newcomers to this thread out a lot... I wish I had the time to pull together summaries like that, but it's a bit chaotic here right now as you can see, so we always appreciate it when a member helps us out by doing things like that, so thanks.
No problem, Dana.
One additional bit of evidence against Snape being committed to Voldemort, though it does depend on the timeline, which I don't know we're sure about.
If Snape made the unbreakable vow before Dumbledore burned his hand, then he would have been able to fulfill his vow rather quickly by not helping Dumbledore. Dumbledore implies that Snape helped save his life after his experience with the horcrux. Allowing Dumbledore to die from this experience would have been much wiser with regard to his role as a DE for many reasons:
* He would have fulfilled his vow to Narcissa much quicker
* He would not have had to go against Voldemort's order by killing Dumbledore--since he wouldn't have killed Dumbledore, just failed to prevent his death
* He would still be in place to spy on the Order since no one would blame him for Dumbledore's death
I think Snape's betrayal is too obvious and the clues too numerous for it to be a real betrayal.
One additional bit of evidence against Snape being committed to Voldemort, though it does depend on the timeline, which I don't know we're sure about.
If Snape made the unbreakable vow before Dumbledore burned his hand, then he would have been able to fulfill his vow rather quickly by not helping Dumbledore. Dumbledore implies that Snape helped save his life after his experience with the horcrux. Allowing Dumbledore to die from this experience would have been much wiser with regard to his role as a DE for many reasons:
* He would have fulfilled his vow to Narcissa much quicker
* He would not have had to go against Voldemort's order by killing Dumbledore--since he wouldn't have killed Dumbledore, just failed to prevent his death
* He would still be in place to spy on the Order since no one would blame him for Dumbledore's death
I think Snape's betrayal is too obvious and the clues too numerous for it to be a real betrayal.
I totally think Snape is on the good side, and that he had no choice but to kill Dumbledore.
I think Dumbledore knew this as well, and I think it was ver uncharacteristic for Dumbledore to be pleading as Harry saw, but more like wanting to make sure that Snape actually went through with it. I think Snape's look of hate was in regard to himself having to kill Dumbledore.
I believe Dumbldore already knew he was going to die, which is why he told Harry everything he knew about Voldemort...Also, Dumbledore has never told anyone his Iron Clad reason for trusting Snape, an Iron Clad reason sounds something like unbreakable bond if you ask me...If Snape had REALLY betrayed Dumbledore, Snape would've died on the spot right?
From what I caught from they way JKR talks about unbreakable bonds in the book, it's not looked well upon by many. So I think if the Order knew that this was the reason Dumbledore trusted Snape, they'd be a little wary.
All in all I think Snape did not betray the Order--He did not kill anyone else when he had ample opportunity, he never returned any of Harry's hexes (he was more like coaching Harry...), he made himself look better in the eyes of Voldemort (which makes his position very valuable), he saved himself an important position beside Voldemort (which in the next book I believe Snape will help Harry indirectly...)
Snape will not be able to return to the Order, but really, it is only Harry's fight and not the Order's, Harry is the one who is going to ultimately end Voldemort... and by the way, if any one can tell me of a good thread to voice my opinion on that than let me know...
But to stick with the topic at hand, Snape is still on the good side...
I think Dumbledore knew this as well, and I think it was ver uncharacteristic for Dumbledore to be pleading as Harry saw, but more like wanting to make sure that Snape actually went through with it. I think Snape's look of hate was in regard to himself having to kill Dumbledore.
I believe Dumbldore already knew he was going to die, which is why he told Harry everything he knew about Voldemort...Also, Dumbledore has never told anyone his Iron Clad reason for trusting Snape, an Iron Clad reason sounds something like unbreakable bond if you ask me...If Snape had REALLY betrayed Dumbledore, Snape would've died on the spot right?
From what I caught from they way JKR talks about unbreakable bonds in the book, it's not looked well upon by many. So I think if the Order knew that this was the reason Dumbledore trusted Snape, they'd be a little wary.
All in all I think Snape did not betray the Order--He did not kill anyone else when he had ample opportunity, he never returned any of Harry's hexes (he was more like coaching Harry...), he made himself look better in the eyes of Voldemort (which makes his position very valuable), he saved himself an important position beside Voldemort (which in the next book I believe Snape will help Harry indirectly...)
Snape will not be able to return to the Order, but really, it is only Harry's fight and not the Order's, Harry is the one who is going to ultimately end Voldemort... and by the way, if any one can tell me of a good thread to voice my opinion on that than let me know...
But to stick with the topic at hand, Snape is still on the good side...
I disagree... I really think Snapes a betrayer.
One :
Cause when they asked Rowling wether or not Snape is evil, she said ; Well, you`ve read the book what do you think?
Then they said : But some people talk about conspirasjon theories between Dumbledor and Snape.
She answered : Clinging to a desperate hope *laughs*
(Not an exact quote, since I read the article in Norwegian and had to translate it)
Two:
All through the books Ron has always said ; "What if it was Snape who .... blabla" He and Harry have repetedly questioned Snapes lojality. Would it not be a typical Rowling irony that they were right about him from the start?
Three :
Rowling wants us to understand that Dumbeldore isnt perfect, as proven in OOTP, so he could had been wrong all that time.
Besides, Snape has never actually helped ayone! When Krum got attacted, he stalled Harry, wasting valuable time. You would think he cared more about an attack of a student than Harry-grudge would you?? He has always been mean. Why on earth should he be good? He doesnt care for anyone but himself, he has no moral, he is mean both to pure- and half bloods. Really, why is everyone so keen on proving his godness, when he obiously hasnt got any moral fibre at all...?!
I think Dumbledore knew he was going to have to die, which was why he actually had private lessons with Harry. Hence he told Snape to kill him when they were heard arguing. And that look of hatred in Snape's eyes... well obviously he has to be a good actor in order to pretend to be on Voldemort's side, right?
I don't know what's wrong, I read today 10 pages of answers, and now I can read only 10. What's happend?
If you scroll up and read the first post in this thread, you'll find out.
Okay, back on topic please, folks.
Okay, back on topic please, folks.
| QUOTE (Rojaneer @ Jul 20 2005, 11:12 AM) |
| I think Dumbledore knew he was going to have to die, which was why he actually had private lessons with Harry. Hence he told Snape to kill him when they were heard arguing. And that look of hatred in Snape's eyes... well obviously he has to be a good actor in order to pretend to be on Voldemort's side, right? |
Did u read what I wrote? Whats your thoughts on that?
Dumbledore had private lessons with Harry because it was time for it!
He had to know sooner or later!
And why on earth would Dumbledore tell Snape to kill him?
Dumbledore didnt know the death eaters where coming, now did he? Because then he would have left the castle more protected.....
Nathalie, watch your tone please. Respect other people's opinions just as you would expect them to respect yours. And please read the rules again, if you haven't already. Netspeak is not allowed on the forums.
Dumbledore knew that he could not do anymore. He could not kill Voldemort, he was getting weaker. He had given Harry all the information. So of course he realized that if he could get Snape to kill him, this would put Snape in a perfect position to spy and give Harry the necessary details. If you look back, Snape has never actually done Harry any real harm, this if anything proves that he is really of DD's side.
My first post here. I'm so happy to have found someplace to talk about the book. My thoughts about Snape & Dumbledore:
I also don't think Dumbledore is dead. Yes, he died. Snape killed him in a carefully orchestrated plan. Dumbledore knew that Snape had the unbreakable vow and was pleading for Snape to kill him.
I also think that is why Harry had been frozen. Dumbledore knew that Harry would intervene instantly w/malfoy and snape. Harry wasn't exactly quiet w/Dumbledore about what he suspected was going on.
The phoenix's appearance at the funeral is important. Perhaps it is just my own grief hoping that I am right. I don't believe you kill Dumbledore. Not that easily.
What a perfect plan - Vold thinks Dumbledore is dead and gone. He isn't afraid of anyone else including Harry. Snape is on the inside.
The last part of Snape fighting w/Harry. This is what makes these books so perfect. They are not just black and white. Snape may be on the right side and quite brave; however, he is still insecure. He has never forgiven or let go of how Harry's father and Sirius treated him and he takes it out on Harry. I think he "enjoyed" fighting w/Harry. I don't think he would have killed him but I do think he would have enjoyed Harry believing that Dumbledore was dead and taunting him.
My thoughts for what they are worth....
I also don't think Dumbledore is dead. Yes, he died. Snape killed him in a carefully orchestrated plan. Dumbledore knew that Snape had the unbreakable vow and was pleading for Snape to kill him.
I also think that is why Harry had been frozen. Dumbledore knew that Harry would intervene instantly w/malfoy and snape. Harry wasn't exactly quiet w/Dumbledore about what he suspected was going on.
The phoenix's appearance at the funeral is important. Perhaps it is just my own grief hoping that I am right. I don't believe you kill Dumbledore. Not that easily.
What a perfect plan - Vold thinks Dumbledore is dead and gone. He isn't afraid of anyone else including Harry. Snape is on the inside.
The last part of Snape fighting w/Harry. This is what makes these books so perfect. They are not just black and white. Snape may be on the right side and quite brave; however, he is still insecure. He has never forgiven or let go of how Harry's father and Sirius treated him and he takes it out on Harry. I think he "enjoyed" fighting w/Harry. I don't think he would have killed him but I do think he would have enjoyed Harry believing that Dumbledore was dead and taunting him.
My thoughts for what they are worth....
First I have to comment how great it is reading everyone's posts on this topic - just excellent!
My gut feeling is that as much as I dislike Snape, in my heart of hearts I have always believed that just because he is (for lack of a cussword) a jerk, he is on the side of good. Despite everything that has gone on since Year One, Dumbledore's mantra has been, "Snape is good." He always sticks up for him, and we know that even though he makes mistakes, he is no fool. I am not going to repeat what others have posted that puts the death scene in a more positive light, but I agree. Dumbledore has been preparing for Harry to go on alone. My theory is that there will be some pivotal moment in Year 7 where Harry has to either trust Snape or kill him and he will finally trust Dumbledore, whose wisdom seems all the greater now that he is gone, and he will finally trust him.
Also, by Dumbledore allowing Snape to kill him, he (Dd) was saving Snape. If Snape hadn't, wouldn't he have broken the vow and killed himself? Dumbledore was prepared to die and used this as his opportunity to do so and save Snape at the same time. And there was a reason he needed Harry to witness what happened.
My gut feeling is that as much as I dislike Snape, in my heart of hearts I have always believed that just because he is (for lack of a cussword) a jerk, he is on the side of good. Despite everything that has gone on since Year One, Dumbledore's mantra has been, "Snape is good." He always sticks up for him, and we know that even though he makes mistakes, he is no fool. I am not going to repeat what others have posted that puts the death scene in a more positive light, but I agree. Dumbledore has been preparing for Harry to go on alone. My theory is that there will be some pivotal moment in Year 7 where Harry has to either trust Snape or kill him and he will finally trust Dumbledore, whose wisdom seems all the greater now that he is gone, and he will finally trust him.
Also, by Dumbledore allowing Snape to kill him, he (Dd) was saving Snape. If Snape hadn't, wouldn't he have broken the vow and killed himself? Dumbledore was prepared to die and used this as his opportunity to do so and save Snape at the same time. And there was a reason he needed Harry to witness what happened.
I think that Snape did not betray Dumbledore.
I think very much that Dumbledore is trying to preserve Draco’s innocence.
Dumbledore appealed to Draco’s innocence to stall him.
If Snape murdered Dumbledore, then Draco would be spared the job himself.
Dumbledore showed a great deal of mercy, and stated so directly, while under the threat of Draco’s wand.
Furthermore, we see Harry pities Draco. He remembers Draco’s wand dropping slightly. I believe Draco arrives, at this point if no sooner, that Dumbledore is in fact “good” and that being “good” is a valuable thing (rather than seeing goodness as weakness, and distasteful).
I think that Dumbledore sees something valuable and virtuous in Draco. Although Draco may not be an equal to Potter, he is nonetheless a very talented, intelligent, and powerful wizard.
I think that Snape is aware of Dumbledore’s intent to help restore Draco. If this is true, then it would very plainly be in the service of Dumbledore that Snape made the unbreakable vow to Draco’s Mom in the first place.
I think that the Astronomy Tower Scene may contain an epiphany for Draco. I think he as fundamentally changed, although he may not know it yet.
I think we may see Harry and Draco working together in book 7…
I realize that statement goes beyond the absurd. However, I do not think that Draco will remain a D.E.
On an aside, I wonder if Snape might have helped Draco’s two other attempts at murder to land astray.
hi has anyone thought yet that hogwarts could be a horcrux and harry will have to destroy it in book7
MOD EDIT : There are other threads discussing the horcruxes. This thread is about who Snape betrayed - please stay on topic.
MOD EDIT : There are other threads discussing the horcruxes. This thread is about who Snape betrayed - please stay on topic.
Lilly, your thoughts bring me comfort and hope!! I was thinking the same thing. I hope you're right!!
I was thinking the same thing. I hope you're right!!
I have had many thoughts on this issue, and had much help from other harry potter fans. I feel that Snape DID kill Dumbledore on Dumbledores orders. There are a couple reasons:
first, Dumbledore has always trusted Snape, and he has always protected Snapes name against any negativity. Dumbledore gave snape a secure job at Hogwarts, now, Snape has (in my opinion) heard the whole prophecy, so knows that Voldemort is facing a permanent downfall at the hands of Harry Potter, so he knows that the dark lord cannot protect him forever, but when he does die for real he'll be saved from any punishment because he stuck to his word with Dumbledore.
Secondly, although Snape is working on the good side, he is still very fond of the Malfoys, now, he knows that Draco faces being killed by Voldemort because of his fathers mistake, and now because Draco failed to kill Dumbledore. Both Snape and Dumbledore wanted to preserve Draco's innocence, Snape (i'm guessing) has already commited murder since he was a fully-fledged death eater and knows that killing another person leaves a certain mark on the murderer and does not want Draco to officially hand his soul over to Voldemort.
Thirdly, JK has spent the entire harry potter series convincing us that Dumbledore is an almighty powerful wizard who fears nothing. He faced Voldemort in OotP with great ease, he was cool-headed in the face of Draco malfoy and shows no sign of fear. WHY would JK send Dumbledore out pleading for his life, begging to be spared???? I agree fully that he was begging Snape to stay with his unbreakable vow because he realised that in order for Harry to have any chance of defeating Voldemort he NEEDS someone on the other side.
Lastly, I personally think that Snapes argument with Dumbledore was about Snape wanting to break his vow with Narcissa. Dumbledore would sacrifice himself for Harry, and more importantly for the wizarding world, his death still has a great importance on the story.
Dumbledore had reasoned with Malfoy, and Draco was not going to kill dumbledore and commit murder, Dumbledore wanted Harry to see this, Harry will now remember the mercy shown by Draco and I think Harry is Draco's only chance of escaping voldemorts wrath.
first, Dumbledore has always trusted Snape, and he has always protected Snapes name against any negativity. Dumbledore gave snape a secure job at Hogwarts, now, Snape has (in my opinion) heard the whole prophecy, so knows that Voldemort is facing a permanent downfall at the hands of Harry Potter, so he knows that the dark lord cannot protect him forever, but when he does die for real he'll be saved from any punishment because he stuck to his word with Dumbledore.
Secondly, although Snape is working on the good side, he is still very fond of the Malfoys, now, he knows that Draco faces being killed by Voldemort because of his fathers mistake, and now because Draco failed to kill Dumbledore. Both Snape and Dumbledore wanted to preserve Draco's innocence, Snape (i'm guessing) has already commited murder since he was a fully-fledged death eater and knows that killing another person leaves a certain mark on the murderer and does not want Draco to officially hand his soul over to Voldemort.
Thirdly, JK has spent the entire harry potter series convincing us that Dumbledore is an almighty powerful wizard who fears nothing. He faced Voldemort in OotP with great ease, he was cool-headed in the face of Draco malfoy and shows no sign of fear. WHY would JK send Dumbledore out pleading for his life, begging to be spared???? I agree fully that he was begging Snape to stay with his unbreakable vow because he realised that in order for Harry to have any chance of defeating Voldemort he NEEDS someone on the other side.
Lastly, I personally think that Snapes argument with Dumbledore was about Snape wanting to break his vow with Narcissa. Dumbledore would sacrifice himself for Harry, and more importantly for the wizarding world, his death still has a great importance on the story.
Dumbledore had reasoned with Malfoy, and Draco was not going to kill dumbledore and commit murder, Dumbledore wanted Harry to see this, Harry will now remember the mercy shown by Draco and I think Harry is Draco's only chance of escaping voldemorts wrath.
| QUOTE (Dana_Scully @ Jul 20 2005, 11:34 AM) |
| Nathalie, watch your tone please. Respect other people's opinions just as you would expect them to respect yours. And please read the rules again, if you haven't already. Netspeak is not allowed on the forums. |
Im sorry, but I think you misunderstood me. I meant no offence! I just wanted an opinion concerning the intervju...
However, Ill be more careful in the future
I dont want to seam stupid here, but what is netspeak?
MOD EDIT : If you go to the rules page, which you really should read before posting, there's a link there that explains what is acceptable on the forum and what isn't regarding netspeak. Netpseak is using abbreviations that you'd normally use when texting on a phone or in a chatroom. In this case, you used 'u' instead of 'you'.
Well...when I first read it that Snape had killed Dumbledore, and that Harry called him a coward, I thought it fit in perfectly. That Snape had killed DD because he was afraid to die by breaking the Unbreakable Vow. Of course, I really deny that now...and hate myself for thinking that.
As stated loads of times, Dumbledore would never beg for his death, he welcomes it, so, he knew that Snape was to kill him, or Snape would die. And Carfk has a point. Snape, is not a coward, and he would sacrifice his own life for Dumbledore's, by breaking the vow.
And, NathalieCole, netspeak is using "u" "cuz" "w/e", and more abbreviations for words. You can type out you, because, or whatever..so there's no need to simplify them. Hope that helps.
As stated loads of times, Dumbledore would never beg for his death, he welcomes it, so, he knew that Snape was to kill him, or Snape would die. And Carfk has a point. Snape, is not a coward, and he would sacrifice his own life for Dumbledore's, by breaking the vow.
And, NathalieCole, netspeak is using "u" "cuz" "w/e", and more abbreviations for words. You can type out you, because, or whatever..so there's no need to simplify them. Hope that helps.
i completely agree that snape isnt a coward resilda. he actually probably did a really brave thing in killing dumbledore since im guessing dumbledore had been telling him what he might have to do for a long time. dumbledore already knew draco wasnt a murderer from his feeble half-hearted attempts at his life.
"He(Snape) actually helped Harry, and then stopped a Death Eater torturing Harry, saying it's the Dark Lord's job."
Well if you might remeber, lord voldamort is following the prophecy as stated in the book .
Well if you might remeber, lord voldamort is following the prophecy as stated in the book .
I tend to think Dumbledore asked Snape to kill him, but I still wonder exactly why Dumbledore placed so much faith in Snape... This seems to be a really key item that JKR hasn't fully explained yet.
All that is said in "The Half-Blood Prinde" iis that Snape was horribly upset at what happens to Potter's parents, and Dumbledore believed him. But why? Snape clearly did not like Harry's father... So, I wonder if their is some connection between Harry's mother and Snape that JKR is hinting at... Note: Lily was sympathetic to Snape in "Snape's Worst Memory" and Lily was apparently really good at Potions according to Slughorn. This just coming up again and again in "The Half-Blood Prince". Was it just a coincidence that Lily was really good at Potions?
Does anyone else think Dumbledore's trust in Snape is somehow connected to something he knew about Snape and Harry's mother?
All that is said in "The Half-Blood Prinde" iis that Snape was horribly upset at what happens to Potter's parents, and Dumbledore believed him. But why? Snape clearly did not like Harry's father... So, I wonder if their is some connection between Harry's mother and Snape that JKR is hinting at... Note: Lily was sympathetic to Snape in "Snape's Worst Memory" and Lily was apparently really good at Potions according to Slughorn. This just coming up again and again in "The Half-Blood Prince". Was it just a coincidence that Lily was really good at Potions?
Does anyone else think Dumbledore's trust in Snape is somehow connected to something he knew about Snape and Harry's mother?
| QUOTE (Dana_Scully @ Jul 20 2005, 09:31 AM) |
| The old thread has been archived and may be found here. I've added a poll to this one to try and get a better idea of the general feeling here... Please read razzberry's original post here before replying though...thanks. Okay...carry on! |
Well, there's no doubt this: Dumbledore's dead because of Snape, so, yeah, he betrayed the Order. He killed Dumbledore, and I'm not happy about it. But I can say that maybe Rowling is fooling us (as usually...) .....I must confess that I believe that she's not fooling us this time. She waited 5 books to write Dumbledore's death and Snape's betray. If it wasn't going to be truth, why did she wait till almost the last chapter of the sixth book??? She could have done it before, don't ya think..? I cried when Snape killed Dumbledore (even when I knew that would happened) and during the whole last chapter......Am i crazy or that chapter was VERY VERY VERY SAD
????MOD EDIT : You really need to read the rules before you post again. This is the second edit I've had to make asking you to not swear on the forums, or replace swearwords with asterisks. That implies you haven't read the rules - please do so if you want the mods off your back. Your post has been edited.
Well, i hate to say this, but...I think that Snape is still in the good side. I really dislike snape since the first movie, but he has always been loyal to Dumbledore.
Also he never really hurt Harry throught the years, and like some people said, he stoped a DE from sending a painfull curse to Harry.
And like people are saying that Dumbledore might of asked Snape to kill him because Dumbledore wouldnt let someone he trust or care about die.
And since Snape made a vowel to Narcissa, he had to complete it or die. So, maybe Snape told Dunbledore about it, and Dumbledore made the desicion for Snape to kill him, so Snape wouldnt die.
But i could still be wrong?
Also he never really hurt Harry throught the years, and like some people said, he stoped a DE from sending a painfull curse to Harry.
And like people are saying that Dumbledore might of asked Snape to kill him because Dumbledore wouldnt let someone he trust or care about die.
And since Snape made a vowel to Narcissa, he had to complete it or die. So, maybe Snape told Dunbledore about it, and Dumbledore made the desicion for Snape to kill him, so Snape wouldnt die.
But i could still be wrong?
So it seems that this new thread has all the arguments for the theory that Snape killed Dumbledore on Dumbledore’s orders, but not the arguments against, so let me recap…
1. The argument in the forest took place after Harry told Dumbledore about the unbreakable vow. Remember at the time Harry couldn’t tell if DD was “really worried by what he had heard, but pretended not to be.” The argument in the forest could have been when DD confronted Snape about making that stupid vow. Lets also remember that the argument had three pieces, Snape refusing to do something, Snap saying he was being taken advantage of and the investigation into Slytherin. The last two points really don’t fit into the ‘Snape, you have to kill me theory.’ Or at least that would be a really odd conversation…
2. We all agree that Dumbledore would never plead for his life, because he was not afraid of death. I should make clear however that not being afraid of death is a huge giant leap away from welcoming it. I have come to believe that DD was pleading with Snape not because he was afraid to die, but because he did not want to die in front of Harry. Dumbledore would never want to put Harry in that position, even if it meant that he had to plead for his life.
3. I think that Dumbledore would sacrifice himself for a number of reasons, but those reasons would have to help the ‘greater good’ if you will. No one has been able to give that reason. Yes, Snape is now a trusted Death Eater, but no one in the Order will ever trust him again, so what good is that? Yes, Draco is still innocent but he is also still under LV’s threats so nothing there has changed. Then there is the argument that infuriates me, that DD sacrificed himself because he was old, hurt, tired…. I wont even dignify it with a reply.
1. The argument in the forest took place after Harry told Dumbledore about the unbreakable vow. Remember at the time Harry couldn’t tell if DD was “really worried by what he had heard, but pretended not to be.” The argument in the forest could have been when DD confronted Snape about making that stupid vow. Lets also remember that the argument had three pieces, Snape refusing to do something, Snap saying he was being taken advantage of and the investigation into Slytherin. The last two points really don’t fit into the ‘Snape, you have to kill me theory.’ Or at least that would be a really odd conversation…
2. We all agree that Dumbledore would never plead for his life, because he was not afraid of death. I should make clear however that not being afraid of death is a huge giant leap away from welcoming it. I have come to believe that DD was pleading with Snape not because he was afraid to die, but because he did not want to die in front of Harry. Dumbledore would never want to put Harry in that position, even if it meant that he had to plead for his life.
3. I think that Dumbledore would sacrifice himself for a number of reasons, but those reasons would have to help the ‘greater good’ if you will. No one has been able to give that reason. Yes, Snape is now a trusted Death Eater, but no one in the Order will ever trust him again, so what good is that? Yes, Draco is still innocent but he is also still under LV’s threats so nothing there has changed. Then there is the argument that infuriates me, that DD sacrificed himself because he was old, hurt, tired…. I wont even dignify it with a reply.
Hey, could someone point me out the page number of Snape and Dumbledore's argument? I don't usually forget important details, but I can't remember when the argument happened in the book for the life of me.
| QUOTE (nobody @ Jul 21 2005, 05:48 AM) |
| Hey, could someone point me out the page number of Snape and Dumbledore's argument? I don't usually forget important details, but I can't remember when the argument happened in the book for the life of me. |
Elf Tales, Pages 405-406
I really do think that Snape betrayed the order because:
He came to Dd looking for a job at Hogwarts after betraying the Potters. Ok, he is doing death eater work and tells Dd "Ooops, sorry I didn't mean it." As it has been pointed out numerous times he is an excellent Legilimens and Occlumens. Lupin pointed out in HBP that "why would he be sorry, he hated James Potter" EXACTLY WHAT I'M THINKING... It could just be his wedge in to spy on Dd.
Nobody really seemed that surprised that it was Snape who killed Dd. Lupin sorta gave the sense that "Man, i knew it all along!!" and McGonnegall was like "Figures."
Hermione's brilliant work of deducting the need of power: "LORD" Voldemort, Half-Blood "PRINCE". They both wanted the power!!
If he knew what Vold had put Draco up to, why would he agree to do the job for him and make the vow to Narcissa?? I would have thought it been better to let him do it on his own, not kill Dd, and then go into Dd's witness protection program along with his family.
And finally, If this had all been worked out beforehand and Dd and Snape agreed that Dd would die by Snape's wand, wouldn't they have told SOMEBODY?? Because now no one in the Order NOT TO MENTION Harry will trust Snape even if he does have good intentions so what good will that do???
He came to Dd looking for a job at Hogwarts after betraying the Potters. Ok, he is doing death eater work and tells Dd "Ooops, sorry I didn't mean it." As it has been pointed out numerous times he is an excellent Legilimens and Occlumens. Lupin pointed out in HBP that "why would he be sorry, he hated James Potter" EXACTLY WHAT I'M THINKING... It could just be his wedge in to spy on Dd.
Nobody really seemed that surprised that it was Snape who killed Dd. Lupin sorta gave the sense that "Man, i knew it all along!!" and McGonnegall was like "Figures."
Hermione's brilliant work of deducting the need of power: "LORD" Voldemort, Half-Blood "PRINCE". They both wanted the power!!
If he knew what Vold had put Draco up to, why would he agree to do the job for him and make the vow to Narcissa?? I would have thought it been better to let him do it on his own, not kill Dd, and then go into Dd's witness protection program along with his family.
And finally, If this had all been worked out beforehand and Dd and Snape agreed that Dd would die by Snape's wand, wouldn't they have told SOMEBODY?? Because now no one in the Order NOT TO MENTION Harry will trust Snape even if he does have good intentions so what good will that do???
Did Snape betray the Order and the Wizard World; yes I believe so. Because he killed DD and I don't think any one will or would believe him now that he is actually on the good side. So many witches and wizards look up to DD as a beacon of hope against the Dark Lord, and now Snape destroyed it. I think that is enough for the Order to believe that Snape did indeed betray them.
But did Snape betray DD orders. Maybe we can't really know if he was acting on DD or LV orders. But I think he was order to help Malfoy, and do what ever Malfoy could not do. And DD knew what this might mean.
Now the problem with this is that the Wizard World thinks that Snape is a traitor and Harry will think this too. So most likely Harry would want to kill Snape on sight of him (As well as more then half the Wizard World). So this puts Snape at a rather bad spot, because if he were indeed on the good side he would want to help Harry out, because he thinks that he is his only hope of defeating the Dark Lord. Now I am predicting in book 7 that Snape is going to reveal Harry his true self to Harry and the Dark Lord and destroy the 6 Horcrux (after learning of the Horcruxs) and sacrificing his life for Harry.
Also this is a little theory that I have, is about Snape's reason going to the good side. Its not because he knew the Potters, it was because he was still in debt to James for saving his life. And then Snape goes off and gets the person that saved his life killed.
But did Snape betray DD orders. Maybe we can't really know if he was acting on DD or LV orders. But I think he was order to help Malfoy, and do what ever Malfoy could not do. And DD knew what this might mean.
Now the problem with this is that the Wizard World thinks that Snape is a traitor and Harry will think this too. So most likely Harry would want to kill Snape on sight of him (As well as more then half the Wizard World). So this puts Snape at a rather bad spot, because if he were indeed on the good side he would want to help Harry out, because he thinks that he is his only hope of defeating the Dark Lord. Now I am predicting in book 7 that Snape is going to reveal Harry his true self to Harry and the Dark Lord and destroy the 6 Horcrux (after learning of the Horcruxs) and sacrificing his life for Harry.
Also this is a little theory that I have, is about Snape's reason going to the good side. Its not because he knew the Potters, it was because he was still in debt to James for saving his life. And then Snape goes off and gets the person that saved his life killed.
When I first finished the book, I was sure that Snape had double-crossed Dumbledore, but after reading some replies here and looking over some stuff again, I'm starting to have second thoughts.
Right now, I'm thinking that Snape felt that he had no other choice than to agree to make an Unbreakable Vow to Narcissa, because he knew his value as a spy in the Death Eater circle to the Order.
Then, Snape tells Dumbledore of his Vow, and Dumbledore insists that Snape follow through with it (hence their argument in the forest).
I don't think that Snape and Dumbledore had intricate plans as to how Dumbledore would die, but rather, Dumbledore simply made Snape promise to kill him if the situation ever came up. I think that both of them weren't really counting on Malfoy making it far enough so that he could have a direct confrontation with Dumbledore.
Of course, I could be entirely wrong, and a part of me hopes that I am. After I got over the shock of Dumbledore's death, I kind of felt a satisfaction over the irony of Snape actually being evil after Harry and Ron's constant accusations against him, and Hermione and the Order kind of rolling their eyes at their theories.
Right now, I'm thinking that Snape felt that he had no other choice than to agree to make an Unbreakable Vow to Narcissa, because he knew his value as a spy in the Death Eater circle to the Order.
Then, Snape tells Dumbledore of his Vow, and Dumbledore insists that Snape follow through with it (hence their argument in the forest).
I don't think that Snape and Dumbledore had intricate plans as to how Dumbledore would die, but rather, Dumbledore simply made Snape promise to kill him if the situation ever came up. I think that both of them weren't really counting on Malfoy making it far enough so that he could have a direct confrontation with Dumbledore.
Of course, I could be entirely wrong, and a part of me hopes that I am. After I got over the shock of Dumbledore's death, I kind of felt a satisfaction over the irony of Snape actually being evil after Harry and Ron's constant accusations against him, and Hermione and the Order kind of rolling their eyes at their theories.
The following was a post made by PenguinDude in 'The Death' thread, but I thought that it was a particularly well thought out and well-presented post and deserved to be brought into this discussion too, especially as it echoes all the evidence that I saw that led me to my conclusion that Snape did not betray Dumbledore too...
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I think Snape is on Dumbledore's side based on certain points in the latter part of the book:
1st: Earlier on, Hagrid told Harry that Snape was angry with Dumbledore and did not wish to do the job anymore. This job is most likely not DADA since we know Snape has always wanted that job. Something Dumbledore wants is against Snape's will.
2nd: Snape's face is full of anger and fury when he murders Dumbledore. Dumbledore has always been a strong, intelligent, and brave person, so I do not think he was pleading for his life, but rather pleading to Snape to kill him. This is against Snape's will which is why his face is full of anger (since Dumbledore's been the only person ever to give Snape a chance).
3rd: Snape loses control of his emotions when Harry calls him a coward. The only other time Snape has lost his temper like this is when Sirius escaped. He yells, "DON'T - CALL ME COWARD!" because he has just done the most difficult thing ever to do for him (murdering Dumbledore) and possibly forced to by Dumbledore.
4th: Snape almost seems to be giving Harry advice when he is escaping. He says, "Blocked again, and again, and again until you learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed, Potter!" This referring to Harry's weakness to succumbing to anger.
While again this topic is up for discussion until JKR releases the final book, these 4 examples are all open to interpretation, IMO they hint that Snape is on Dumbledore's side.
P.S. - The whole Snape is explaining to Bellatrix scene is also up for interpretation, whether he is on LV's side or he is following Dumbledore's orders to act as though he is on LV's side.
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I think Snape is on Dumbledore's side based on certain points in the latter part of the book:
1st: Earlier on, Hagrid told Harry that Snape was angry with Dumbledore and did not wish to do the job anymore. This job is most likely not DADA since we know Snape has always wanted that job. Something Dumbledore wants is against Snape's will.
2nd: Snape's face is full of anger and fury when he murders Dumbledore. Dumbledore has always been a strong, intelligent, and brave person, so I do not think he was pleading for his life, but rather pleading to Snape to kill him. This is against Snape's will which is why his face is full of anger (since Dumbledore's been the only person ever to give Snape a chance).
3rd: Snape loses control of his emotions when Harry calls him a coward. The only other time Snape has lost his temper like this is when Sirius escaped. He yells, "DON'T - CALL ME COWARD!" because he has just done the most difficult thing ever to do for him (murdering Dumbledore) and possibly forced to by Dumbledore.
4th: Snape almost seems to be giving Harry advice when he is escaping. He says, "Blocked again, and again, and again until you learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed, Potter!" This referring to Harry's weakness to succumbing to anger.
While again this topic is up for discussion until JKR releases the final book, these 4 examples are all open to interpretation, IMO they hint that Snape is on Dumbledore's side.
P.S. - The whole Snape is explaining to Bellatrix scene is also up for interpretation, whether he is on LV's side or he is following Dumbledore's orders to act as though he is on LV's side.
"I would sure like to know how he convinced Dumbledore to trust him" said someone in the book (dont remember who)
But anyway, I think Snape has made more than one Unbreakable Vow in his time.. and I think the other might have been to Dumbledore.
But anyway, I think Snape has made more than one Unbreakable Vow in his time.. and I think the other might have been to Dumbledore.
Just out of curiosity has anyone thought that maybe there was an unbreakable vow between DD and Snape. I mean let's face it DD made mistakes like everyone else but he was no fool. I mean there has to be a more valid reason why DD trusted Snape and not just because Snape was sorry that Harry's parents were killed. Harry repeatedly tried to warn DD and DD still trusted Snape. I think that Snape had to have been under DD's orders. I just can't believe that DD would be foolish enough to blindly trust Snape regardless of Harry's repeated warnings. Like it was stated earlier I guess we are just going to have to wait until book 7. The long agonizing wait.......
I know all the evidence points to a bad ending, but I personally still have a strong faith in Severus. The way in which he killed dumbledore was cold and without remorse.. thats not how the snape we "know" would do it.
He'd want to make sure Dumbledore knew all about his double-double-tripple (whatever) agent work, not just stroll up to him "avada kedavra - night night dumbly"
He'd want to make sure Dumbledore knew all about his double-double-tripple (whatever) agent work, not just stroll up to him "avada kedavra - night night dumbly"
Hi!
I'm new to this site and have found some interesting thoughts here regarding Snape's "betrayal".
I, too, think that this was not real and that Snape was acting on Dumbledores wish, because I trust Dumbledore that he would not let Snape anywhere near Harry if there wasn't a really really good reason to trust him.
But what could this reason have been? The Unbreakable Vow seems a good idea. That would mean that there's a bonder. Someone who knows about it. If this person isn't dead, he or she could speak out in Book 7.
Another point in favor of the Snape/Dumbledore conspiracy would be that Dumbledore was telling Draco Malfoy about Snape working for him. Think about it. Was Dumbledore that he would live through this situation? Even if he was sure, that Draco wouldn't kill him, could he be sure that he wouldn't tell Voldemort about Snape? All in the face of being killed by Voldemort for his own failure...
Regarding the Unbreakable Vow to Narcissa I think that Snape didn't tell Dumbledore about it because if would have meant his death. Of course he had told Dumbledore about the plan to kill him and that Draco shoud do it, but telling him about the Unbreakable Vow would give away a great advantage and sure would be the same as "doint all that he can"...I think Dumbledore first heard about this from Harry and hence the angry discussion between Snape and Dumbledore witnessed by Hagrid.
So..what do you think?
I'm new to this site and have found some interesting thoughts here regarding Snape's "betrayal".
I, too, think that this was not real and that Snape was acting on Dumbledores wish, because I trust Dumbledore that he would not let Snape anywhere near Harry if there wasn't a really really good reason to trust him.
But what could this reason have been? The Unbreakable Vow seems a good idea. That would mean that there's a bonder. Someone who knows about it. If this person isn't dead, he or she could speak out in Book 7.
Another point in favor of the Snape/Dumbledore conspiracy would be that Dumbledore was telling Draco Malfoy about Snape working for him. Think about it. Was Dumbledore that he would live through this situation? Even if he was sure, that Draco wouldn't kill him, could he be sure that he wouldn't tell Voldemort about Snape? All in the face of being killed by Voldemort for his own failure...
Regarding the Unbreakable Vow to Narcissa I think that Snape didn't tell Dumbledore about it because if would have meant his death. Of course he had told Dumbledore about the plan to kill him and that Draco shoud do it, but telling him about the Unbreakable Vow would give away a great advantage and sure would be the same as "doint all that he can"...I think Dumbledore first heard about this from Harry and hence the angry discussion between Snape and Dumbledore witnessed by Hagrid.
So..what do you think?
There are so many reasons to believe that Snape remains 'good', many of which appear here and I won't repeat. However:
Firstly, Dumbledore was probably the only one who truly appreciated that the Order of the Phoenix was always bigger than one man - killing Voldemort was always the priority and when one falls, another steps up to continue the fight. That he could talk Snape into killing him to:
Maintain his position as a spy with Voldemort
Saving Draco from making his father's mistakes and
Forcing Harry to fulfil his destiny on his own
...is not hard to envisage.
Secondly, at no point (here or before) has Snape ever try to kill or harm anyone else - he may be a sourpuss but he is not evil. (Incidently, I like whole "Don't call me a coward" thing - remember that he has risked his life as a spy for 15 years, fighting Fluffy when Quirrell tried to slip past him, defending the kids from Lupin when Lycanthropy took hold... I think he took the coward thing personally! )
A final point - Snape's face was contorted in a seething, angry fashion when he killed Albus, but couldn't this also be extreme remorse? Being forced to kill an old friend and mentor for a higher cause must be traumatic to say the least.
Firstly, Dumbledore was probably the only one who truly appreciated that the Order of the Phoenix was always bigger than one man - killing Voldemort was always the priority and when one falls, another steps up to continue the fight. That he could talk Snape into killing him to:
Maintain his position as a spy with Voldemort
Saving Draco from making his father's mistakes and
Forcing Harry to fulfil his destiny on his own
...is not hard to envisage.
Secondly, at no point (here or before) has Snape ever try to kill or harm anyone else - he may be a sourpuss but he is not evil. (Incidently, I like whole "Don't call me a coward" thing - remember that he has risked his life as a spy for 15 years, fighting Fluffy when Quirrell tried to slip past him, defending the kids from Lupin when Lycanthropy took hold... I think he took the coward thing personally!
)A final point - Snape's face was contorted in a seething, angry fashion when he killed Albus, but couldn't this also be extreme remorse? Being forced to kill an old friend and mentor for a higher cause must be traumatic to say the least.
Im styrongly inclined to agree with you there. I think that when Snape killed dumbledore, he didnt do it with anger, or with hatred, but with longing and maybe even love.
It seems that for the most part of his life, Dumbledore has acted in a reather "fatherly" role towards snape, and killing him, no matter what the cause, must have been one of the hardest things he has ever had to face.
It seems that for the most part of his life, Dumbledore has acted in a reather "fatherly" role towards snape, and killing him, no matter what the cause, must have been one of the hardest things he has ever had to face.
Exactly....cold determination for what he knew he had to do...just like Jack when he nearly had to shoot Tony...
(sorry...it's a 24 thing...)
Anywho, the fact that he had hatred and loathing in his face - for reasons I've stated before - I believe shows just how much of a heart Snape really does have beneath that exterior. Why would he make an unbreakable vow to protect Malfoy if he didn't care? Of course he cares...he cares about the Malfoys quite clearly for whatever reasons he does. Narcissa loves her son...Draco knew he couldn't do it - those are signs of basic goodness in people and I can't understand how some of the people posting here can't see that.
(sorry...it's a 24 thing...)Anywho, the fact that he had hatred and loathing in his face - for reasons I've stated before - I believe shows just how much of a heart Snape really does have beneath that exterior. Why would he make an unbreakable vow to protect Malfoy if he didn't care? Of course he cares...he cares about the Malfoys quite clearly for whatever reasons he does. Narcissa loves her son...Draco knew he couldn't do it - those are signs of basic goodness in people and I can't understand how some of the people posting here can't see that.
No,he can't be really betraying.Although Dembledore was hurt, he still could attack Snape without his wand.But he didn't ,for the first time Dembledore was pleading,it's quite an surprising action.I believe it was a great stratagem between Dembledore and Snape.
I think that the "pleading" by dumbledore was either a cover so the death eaters and malfoy thought it was real.
it could also have been a secret message to snape, to sort of say "Please don't worry - your doing what has to be done"
it could also have been a secret message to snape, to sort of say "Please don't worry - your doing what has to be done"
I don't think that Snape makes the Unbreakable Vow to Narcissa because he cares for her or Draco. It would be useless to do this. He could help Draco without making that Vow. Of course he could have wanted to reassure Narcissa. But at what cost. The Vow made sure that either he or Dumbledore dies, if Draco fails - which was very likely.
I think he made the Vow to gain more trust. If he refused to do so, he would be more suspicious...and this is another point in favor of "the conspiracy" theory. Why would he make this Vow if he only cared for himself? It certainly is a risk for him. Surely he would be the one given the order to kill Dumbledore if Draco fails, but then he could plan how to execute this order. The Vow made sure that he would have to assist Draco, even if it is a dangerous moment for him. As mindful as Snape is about everything, would he do this?
I think he made the Vow to gain more trust. If he refused to do so, he would be more suspicious...and this is another point in favor of "the conspiracy" theory. Why would he make this Vow if he only cared for himself? It certainly is a risk for him. Surely he would be the one given the order to kill Dumbledore if Draco fails, but then he could plan how to execute this order. The Vow made sure that he would have to assist Draco, even if it is a dangerous moment for him. As mindful as Snape is about everything, would he do this?
I've read some pretty weird theorys
first off Dumbledore is dead I don't want to admit it either
they had the body Hagrid carried the body and everything
next I am positive Snape betrayed the order
he may have been forced because of the vow but he killed Dumbledor and I don't thjink it was part of Dumbledores plan to die
he really wanted to help Harry find the Horcuxes
The pleading was in my opinion a plead for Snape to help I found it really sad and I even cried because Dumbledore who is always so strong was pleading for help and Snape murdered him in cold blood
I never trusted Snape but I was convinced that he was on our side because Dumbledore trusted him
Now I see the genious
Rowling lulled us into a false sence of securiyt by making Snape sucpicous but then proving himself in every single book that no matter what he did he was on our side
Then BAM! he kills Dumbledore
amazing really
Now was I the only one who thought that Malfoy's job had something to do with getting Harry
I was shoked it was like a slap in the face to find out he was after Dumbledore cause I really didn't think think Voldemort would have the guts to try it even indirectly
Then Ginny and Harry never saw it coming once again and I was very happy how Ron and Hermione are finnaly progressing
I thought Ginny should offer to help Harry as well though
although I suspect she'll wait for him
All in all I wasn't dissappointed and once again I feel this installment has surpassed its predeceser
One thing I thought was cool was the ending completly differant more of a cliff hanger than any of the others and it set up the next and finnal instalmint nicely most of the time you have no idea what is coming in the next book
this time the mystery isn't what more like HOW?
I have to give J.K. her props because I have never wanted the next book more than I do know. I'm a little PO'd cause I know it will be at least 2 yrs probablky way more and I'm a little depressed because I am so eager to know more then sad that it will be all over no more
first off Dumbledore is dead I don't want to admit it either
they had the body Hagrid carried the body and everything
next I am positive Snape betrayed the order
he may have been forced because of the vow but he killed Dumbledor and I don't thjink it was part of Dumbledores plan to die
he really wanted to help Harry find the Horcuxes
The pleading was in my opinion a plead for Snape to help I found it really sad and I even cried because Dumbledore who is always so strong was pleading for help and Snape murdered him in cold blood
I never trusted Snape but I was convinced that he was on our side because Dumbledore trusted him
Now I see the genious
Rowling lulled us into a false sence of securiyt by making Snape sucpicous but then proving himself in every single book that no matter what he did he was on our side
Then BAM! he kills Dumbledore
amazing really
Now was I the only one who thought that Malfoy's job had something to do with getting Harry
I was shoked it was like a slap in the face to find out he was after Dumbledore cause I really didn't think think Voldemort would have the guts to try it even indirectly
Then Ginny and Harry never saw it coming once again and I was very happy how Ron and Hermione are finnaly progressing
I thought Ginny should offer to help Harry as well though
although I suspect she'll wait for him
All in all I wasn't dissappointed and once again I feel this installment has surpassed its predeceser
One thing I thought was cool was the ending completly differant more of a cliff hanger than any of the others and it set up the next and finnal instalmint nicely most of the time you have no idea what is coming in the next book
this time the mystery isn't what more like HOW?
I have to give J.K. her props because I have never wanted the next book more than I do know. I'm a little PO'd cause I know it will be at least 2 yrs probablky way more and I'm a little depressed because I am so eager to know more then sad that it will be all over no more
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I think that this all was planed by Dumbledore from the beggining. He knew that Snape was having problems to spy the DE, because as we see in chapter 2 (Spinner´s End) most of them (I think that specially those who stayed in Azkaban -> eg. Bellatrix Lestrange) don´t trust him.
I´ve come to this conclussion because there are no real Death Eaters detentions in book six, there are muggle and wizards deads and stupid detentions (Stan of the Knight Bus). So Dumbledore knows that to beat Voldemort, the most important thing is to have someone near Voldemort, someone Voldemort trusts (and now that Snape killed Dumbledore we have to think he does).
I also came to this when I studied the behaviour of Dumbledore in this book:
1.He, for the first time in the series, goes to rescue Harry from the Dursley´s. And he has this conversation with the Dursley´s, telling them how bad they had treated Harry and asking them to keep him one more year. Why did he holds this conversation now? He could have perfectly wait until the next summer when Harry turns 17. This is the first clue that made me think that Dumbledore knew his death was coming.
2.Then he starts this Voldemort´s PAst Lessons with HArry, and the most important fact he asks HArry to get Slughorn´s memory, when I think that Dumbledore could have perfectly done it. This is for giving HArry confidence, and to make him part of the search for Voldemort´s Horcruxes. That´s why he takes him to the cave with him.
3.At Astronomy Tower, why Dumbledore losses so much time talking to Draco? I mean, he is the most powerful wizard, we have seen him beating the most dangerous DE by himself in the Deparment of Mistery in OotP and another clue is given to us when Harry is paralised in the train and he remembers that some wizards e capable of doing magic without wand, I obviously think that Dumbledore is one of these wizards. But, he losses all this time when he is told by Draco that DE are down fighting with members of the Order. He is waiting for Snape to do what they agreed, to save Draco.
4.HAgrid tells Harry that Sanpe and Dumbledore had a hot discussion and that Snape says that he is too much intoduced. This is because Snape is not conviced, he doesn´t want to kill dumbledore. And then of course, the supplies of Dumbledore before his dead. It makes no sense that a wizard that´ve said that "dead is just another adventure", begs for his live. He is asking Snape not to turn back, to be brave and kill him. That´s why when next to that when Harry calls him coward he gets mad.
5. The Unbreakable Vow : Draco was clearly not going to kill Dumbledore so if Snape didn´t do it he would have died. Dumbledore also knew this, even, I think, he was the one who told Snape to do it, when Snape told him what Draco´s duty was, so he will gain the trust of DE.
6. And at last, of course, why did he freezes Harry?? I´m sorry but with all these facts is obvious[COLOR=red] Snape is on Order´s side.
I think that this all was planed by Dumbledore from the beggining. He knew that Snape was having problems to spy the DE, because as we see in chapter 2 (Spinner´s End) most of them (I think that specially those who stayed in Azkaban -> eg. Bellatrix Lestrange) don´t trust him.
I´ve come to this conclussion because there are no real Death Eaters detentions in book six, there are muggle and wizards deads and stupid detentions (Stan of the Knight Bus). So Dumbledore knows that to beat Voldemort, the most important thing is to have someone near Voldemort, someone Voldemort trusts (and now that Snape killed Dumbledore we have to think he does).
I also came to this when I studied the behaviour of Dumbledore in this book:
1.He, for the first time in the series, goes to rescue Harry from the Dursley´s. And he has this conversation with the Dursley´s, telling them how bad they had treated Harry and asking them to keep him one more year. Why did he holds this conversation now? He could have perfectly wait until the next summer when Harry turns 17. This is the first clue that made me think that Dumbledore knew his death was coming.
2.Then he starts this Voldemort´s PAst Lessons with HArry, and the most important fact he asks HArry to get Slughorn´s memory, when I think that Dumbledore could have perfectly done it. This is for giving HArry confidence, and to make him part of the search for Voldemort´s Horcruxes. That´s why he takes him to the cave with him.
3.At Astronomy Tower, why Dumbledore losses so much time talking to Draco? I mean, he is the most powerful wizard, we have seen him beating the most dangerous DE by himself in the Deparment of Mistery in OotP and another clue is given to us when Harry is paralised in the train and he remembers that some wizards e capable of doing magic without wand, I obviously think that Dumbledore is one of these wizards. But, he losses all this time when he is told by Draco that DE are down fighting with members of the Order. He is waiting for Snape to do what they agreed, to save Draco.
4.HAgrid tells Harry that Sanpe and Dumbledore had a hot discussion and that Snape says that he is too much intoduced. This is because Snape is not conviced, he doesn´t want to kill dumbledore. And then of course, the supplies of Dumbledore before his dead. It makes no sense that a wizard that´ve said that "dead is just another adventure", begs for his live. He is asking Snape not to turn back, to be brave and kill him. That´s why when next to that when Harry calls him coward he gets mad.
5. The Unbreakable Vow : Draco was clearly not going to kill Dumbledore so if Snape didn´t do it he would have died. Dumbledore also knew this, even, I think, he was the one who told Snape to do it, when Snape told him what Draco´s duty was, so he will gain the trust of DE.
6. And at last, of course, why did he freezes Harry?? I´m sorry but with all these facts is obvious[COLOR=red] Snape is on Order´s side.
If Snape was conspiring with Dumbledore, then we have to ask, how can he be of any help to the Order now? It seems as though all the important players completely distrust him at then end of this book, as they should. How can Snape help at all now? Here's what I think:
* It's possible that Dumbledore left some sort of message for McGonagall that she will find. This message may help her to realize that Hogwarts must stay open to keep Harry close and give him any help she can, but more importantly, the message could be delivered to Harry at a crucial moment later in the last book.
* Some of the memories in the pensieve may contain information that will lead people to trust Snape again. Remember that in OotP Dumbledore had given Snape the pensieve so that he could contribute some of his memories to it. These memories probably hold the key to why Dumbledore trusts Snape and would convince people to trust Snape--which gives them immense power, considering his elevated status among Voldemort's camp.
* Snape's role may not require the Order's trust. People think that it's necessary that the Order trust Snape in order for him to help them out, but that's not necessarily true. As a mole, Snape's role may be to feed Voldemort some crucial disinformation that will make Voldemort vulnerable to Harry. Even a suspicion that the Order still trusted Snape could ruin his ability to influence Voldemort as much as necessary to end the Dark Lord's reign of terror.
Last thing--the Unbreakable Vow. It argues against Snape being on Voldemort's side. Snape has already earned Voldemort's trust--why should he be concerned with trying to earn anyone else's? And the making the Vow seems to undermine Voldemort's plans. Voldemort has apparently given this assignment to Draco to either 1) develop a powerful young wizard for his side by making him kill Dumbledore or 2) punish the Malfoys for botching the prophecy assignment. This vow weakens both of those purposes.
* It's possible that Dumbledore left some sort of message for McGonagall that she will find. This message may help her to realize that Hogwarts must stay open to keep Harry close and give him any help she can, but more importantly, the message could be delivered to Harry at a crucial moment later in the last book.
* Some of the memories in the pensieve may contain information that will lead people to trust Snape again. Remember that in OotP Dumbledore had given Snape the pensieve so that he could contribute some of his memories to it. These memories probably hold the key to why Dumbledore trusts Snape and would convince people to trust Snape--which gives them immense power, considering his elevated status among Voldemort's camp.
* Snape's role may not require the Order's trust. People think that it's necessary that the Order trust Snape in order for him to help them out, but that's not necessarily true. As a mole, Snape's role may be to feed Voldemort some crucial disinformation that will make Voldemort vulnerable to Harry. Even a suspicion that the Order still trusted Snape could ruin his ability to influence Voldemort as much as necessary to end the Dark Lord's reign of terror.
Last thing--the Unbreakable Vow. It argues against Snape being on Voldemort's side. Snape has already earned Voldemort's trust--why should he be concerned with trying to earn anyone else's? And the making the Vow seems to undermine Voldemort's plans. Voldemort has apparently given this assignment to Draco to either 1) develop a powerful young wizard for his side by making him kill Dumbledore or 2) punish the Malfoys for botching the prophecy assignment. This vow weakens both of those purposes.
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