Well, obviously Snape chose the Dark Side. In the 6th book Nobody knows, what he'll be up to in the 7th one Frankly speaking as we are now expecting Snape to be a Voldemort ally he'll likely to turn out to be a double-agent
I couldn't believe in his betrayal either. Dumbledore was the one who accepted him to Hogwarts, who trusted him and didn't suspect him. At first I thought that maybe Snape did that silent spell thing. I mean maybe the spell he did on Dumbledore was not Avada Kedavra, but the one he didn't pronounc. At least that is the kind of thing he was excellent at.

my mistake

Quote Danny91

So I think that snape did some spell inside his head right before Avada Kedvra (sp?) so maybe he appeared dead or it made him fly out the window but something inside of me doesn't think DD is really dead and Snape is still good. I mean I know I might be in denial b/c I still am in a way about Sirius but Hagrid did over hear snape and DD arguing about something that snape didn't want to do so obviously it must have been planned for DD to be killed whether he was or not. I just don't think that DD could be THAT wrong about someone that he would trust them for like 15 years. DD is too smart for that. Now that I've said that you can read the rest of my theory sorry if it's repetitive.
I just finished the book yesterday and of course I was very saddened by Dumbledore's death but part of me doesn't believe that he's really dead. Now I can't decide if I'm just in denial or if this is actually logical. I just think that Dumbledore is too amazing, powerful, and such a main role in Harry too die. Although I do I have my proof I went back to read the end of the book to see if they ever actually say they've buried him and I don't believe that they do (correct me if I'm wrong) I mean they put him in a casket and everything but that doesn't mean he's dead. Also such things as his picture appearing in the office could probably easily be done to fool people. I don't know if I'm just in denial or if it's "The Lord of the Rings" coming out in me with the whole Gandalf return. Just let me know what everyone thinks!

I guess I'm too much of a "seeing-is-believing" kind of person. Dumbledore fell of the battlements, but who saw him fall or land? Even later when they found his body, it said that it looked like he was laying peacefully. (Must have really "stuck the landing"!! )

But Fawkes could have caught him and landed safely. Dumbledore was disabling some of the protective spells as Harry and he fly broomsticks from Hogsmeade. Maybe Dumbledore could disable the "anti-apparrating" spell too. Maybe there was a strategically placed broom or portkey. Too many questions left too assume everything is at it appears.

The bottom line is if someone didn't see it actually happen, maybe it didn't happen the way everyone thinks. Sounds like something JKR would do. Lead you in one direction, but then spin it so something else actually happens.

You can say I'm in denial, but Dumbledore is still alive! Never been more sure!

It is pointless to argue that Snape killed Dumbledore under the loyalty of Lord Voldermort. Rowling wrote that in plain view. Or did she?

Ok, is Snape really on ‘OUR’ side? I think so, Why? Here goes. I too was emotional when Albus Dumbledore died. But I knew he had to. Let us not forget DD had been poisoned with the brew from Voldermort’s Pensieve. Only Dumbledore knew the true effects the green liquid had on him. If Dumbledore was pleading with Snape to kill him then it must have been for two reasons

1. Snape killed Dumbledore to eliminate the possible damages and/or side effects that crept closer. It was taking forever for a Pensieve cocktail cure to reach Dumbledaore (notice how DD kept sliding further and further to the floor during Draco’s monologue). Maybe he knew the end was near. I think R.A.B. replaced Voldermort’s original brew with a more potent deadly poison. The way he pleaded with Harry to stop giving him the potion meant DD was in terrible pain, physically &emotionally. Humans, Muggle or Magic, when in immense pain plead for the ‘Long Rest‘. Snape was Dumbledore’s Dr. “Death” Kevorkian.

2. Snape killed Dumbledore to spare Draco’s life from ****ation. Let me explain. Something, in the Magic world (& in the Muggle world), happens to someone once they have taken a life. “Killing rips the soul apart” (HBP pg 498) If Dumbledore died at the hands of Snape, Draco could be spared from the darkness that veils over anyone who murders. Yes, Draco was born into a family that whole heartedly supported Volddermort (that can be argued, Narcissa! but this is not the time), however it should not mean Draco too s/w/could have the same faith as his Father. According to Myrtle, Draco cried and had major grievances with his mission and the outcome if he failed. If he were truly Voldermort’s man (like Bellatrix) he would see his failed endeavor as a triumph for the mere fact of being chosen to attempt the deed. Snape was given a chance so should, Dumbledore thought, so should Draco. Hmph!


I totally agree with Penguin Dude’s bullet # 2) that Snape’s anger with DD was the results of Draco’s efforts and later success of breeching Hogwarts walls. Did Hagrid not say to Harry, Snape told Dumbledore “He [DD] took something for granted”.


I also support bullet # 2. But I must add this:

After Dumbledore spoke Snape’s name softly he ROUGHLY pushed Draco out of the way. Then they might have exchanged information through Occulmacy “[Snape] gaze[d] for a moment at Dumbledore” (HBP pg 595) It was after the gaze Snape looked infuriated; “there was revulsion and hated etched in the harsh lines in his face.

We all know that Snape is the Emeril Lagasse of Potion brewing. Remember how Snape recognized Sectumsempra from the abrasion it caused Draco he might have recognized his OWN deadly potion from the sight of Dumbledore. He knew the cure for Sectumsempra, he may also have know there was no cure for the Pensieve Cocktail. Could that be why “there was revulsion and hated etched in the harsh lines in his face. {That one of his potions he created for Voldermort when he was a death eater, is now killing Albus Dumbledore}? That being said could R.A.B be the Half Blood Prince.

That is why I am certain Snape is still on our side [see Penguin Dude‘s bullet # 3 & 4 for additional theories]. Now if you still believe that Snape is nothing more than one of Voldermort’s lap dogs, answer this: Why is the book called Harry Potter and ‘SNAPE’!!? At one point we thought the ‘Prisoner of Azkaban’ was directly responsible for the death of Harry‘s parents AND on a mission to do Harry in.

Oh boy, weren’t we fooled!



Phonix 7 If I am not mistaken Dumbledore is a bumble bee.
animugus.


Oh one more thing wasn’t the prophecy told in a B.A.R. The same B.A.R. owned by Dumbledore’s brother. And speaking of brothers isn’t Sirius Black’s brothers’ initials R.A.B. After reading all of your thoughts, I also think Dumbledore could have staged his death seriously. Clues like that don't grow on trees. Just a thought.

Something's fishy about DD's alleged death:

Although “a jet of green light shot from the end of Snape’s wand and hit Dumbledore squarely in the chest” after Snape uttered “Avada Kedavra,” I assert the possibility that Snape did not actually kill DD…at least with the Killing Curse. I suspect that what Snape did, in fact, was to simply utter the words of the Killing Curse while casting a non-verbal spell whose only effect in common with the Killing Curse is the issuance of a jet of green light and whose primary effect is to have the victim “blasted into the air,” and possibly over the edge of any ramparts that may be present. Now lets compare this with past descriptions of the effects of the Killing Curse, both from Potter 4:

Example 1: Barty Crouch Jr. (appearing as a Poly-Juiced Mad-Eye Moody) in DADA class as he demonstrates the use of the curse on an unfortunate spider: “There was a flash of blinding green light and a rushing sound, as though a vast, invisible something was soaring through the air—instantaneously the spider rolled over onto its back, unmarked, but unmistakably dead.”

Example 2: After Harry and Cedric Diggory are transported by Portkey (the Triwizard Cup) to the graveyard where Tom Riddle Sr. is buried during the Third Task of the Triwizard Tournament, Voldemort orders Wormtail to kill Cedric: “A blast of green light blazed through Harry’s eyelids, and he heard something heavy fall to the ground beside him….Cedric was lying spread-eagled on the ground beside him. He was dead.”

These are the only examples in which the effect of the Killing Curse is described, as far as I can recall, and in neither example is the victim “blasted into the air.” And, though in Example 2 it is unclear as to what, if anything, happened between the time Harry sees a “blast of green light” and when he hears “something heavy fall to the ground,” it can be fairly inferred that Cedric simply fell to the ground, dead, as is clearly exemplified in Example 1. So, unless J.K. Rowling simply overlooked this inconsistency, it is clear that DD did not fall victim to the Killing Curse, as one might glean from a simple reading of Potter 6.

I think you have your opinion but I think Dumbledore was pleading for his life and Severus to help not for Severus to kill.

Hi Guys

Am new to this but after just finishing reading HBP and try to deal with the shock (and yes the tears !). JK has once again worked her magic. I can't believe that DD didn't know what was coming and that he hadn't already made plans with Snape. Whether that means he is dead or not is another matter. But my guess is that he had made Snape agree to kill or make it look like he had killed him. I'm sure that this is all part of DD's plan and that he will return in some gise or another to guide and assist Harry through the final book. The one thing i'm not sure off, excuse me if i had missed it in the book, is why was DD's hand like it was. I kept thinking that it's trying to imply that it wasn't really DD but an imposter but it seemed to be too much like DD. Maybe its a way of bring DD back at a later date ?? Harry kept asking him about it but was continually told that he will find out the full story in due time. And why would DD risk taking Harry to the cave when it could have so easily gone wrong, doesn't make sense unless the whole final act was staged by DD and Snape.

I don't believe Dumbledore has been killed.... I also believe that Snape is still good... It was all an act. Here's why...

In the second chapter, Snape agreed to the unbreakable vow. He told Narcissa that he knew what Draco was supposed to do, but he never actually said it... we never heard him say that Draco was supposed to Kill Dumbledore. I believe this was an attempt by Snape to try to find out what Voldemort had in store for Draco. NOTE: Wormtail was there as well... his SILVER RIGHT HAND still intact... Also of note: We already know from Goblet of Fire that Wormtail wanted out of his relationship with Voldemort. Voldemort could sense this early on.

Theory: All thoughout the book, we heard about Dumbledore's dead RIGHT HAND. I bleieve that Wormtail was posing as Dumbledore by taking Polyjuice potion. This was an elaborate scheme by Dumbledore and Snape to get Voldemort to think that Dumbledore was dead. It also saved Snape from certain death for breaking the unbreakable vow. It had to be believable... Nobody could know the truth... not even members of the Order (Short of Dumbledore and Snape). That's why Dumbledore had asked Harry to get Snape and ONLY Snape while he lied there weak from the potion. Harry also honored Dumbledores command not to tell anyone where they had been. (Including Prof. McGonagal... she may have known where the real Dumbledore was prior to that) This way, everyone believes that he's dead... including Voldemort and the Death Eaters.... I don't think we've seen the last of Dumbledore.

One last thing of note.... R.A.B. = Regulus Black

Does anyone recall the heavy locket in the cabinet at number twelve Grimwald Place that nobody could open??

Slew

Great catch, Slewfoot!!!!!! I never put the fact that DD and Wormtail both had right hand injuries! It can't be a coincidence!!! Nothing ever is with JKR!!!!!

My only doubt with this theory is whether Wormtail could possibly act anything like DD. He's such a cowardly weasle! But he does owe Harry a wizard's debt, and wants out from under Voldemort's thumb.

Thanks for something different to think about!!!

Maybe this should be a new topic, to get more ideas.

I think the reason we saw Dumbledore begging was that is was actually Wormtail. Wormtail begged in the same manner when he was about to be killed in the shreiking shack. Dumbledore would never beg for his life. He said himself that there were much worse things than death.

Slew

Slewfoot I really like your idea of it being wormtail. I never thought of that but it makes sense. I also am glad that Malfoy didn't kill Dumbledore it made me like him more too. You could tell that he was about to listen to Dumbledore when JKR said harry saw his wand lower just an inch. I have hope for Malfoy he's beginning to realize what side is better and you could also tell that Malfoy just really didn't want to help Voldermort anymore he was crying and so stressed but he knew he had no choice.

ok as much as i HATE to admit it, i'm almost certain DD is dead. I'm not saying i give up hope because it's very much like J.K. to bring him back as a final twist. But seeing how she didn't bring back sirius she probably won't bring back dumbledore. I do however think his potrait will serve a great purpose. On numerous occasions when harry was in DD's office the portraits spoke and expressed their oppionions and i could see DD's portrait as a way of harry being able to communicate to him. But even though i would love for dumbledore to come back i think he is dead and the portait is his only way of communication although maybe his portrait is also i grimauld place because if he would ahve known he was going to die wouldn't he want harry to still be able to talk to him so like other people he'll have other portraits that he can visit. I don't know lol and i'm sorry because that was probably really repetitive but you'll understand... hopefully.

I really like the idea that dumbledore was Wormtail, but i have a theory for a main plot line in the final book. I believe that the 4th book was mainly about Voldemort and his rise to power and how he regained his body, book 5 was about harry and how he was realising how big a part he was in the events of voldemort and the 6th book is about snape and what side he is on and all that hoo ha. These 3 books have been preparing us for the seventh book. The war. Headed up by Voldemort and Harry on either side and with Snape hanging somewhere in the middle. I personally think that Snape will drop clues for Harry and help him discover the Horcruxes because he is feeling regretful about the events he has caused. Whatever side Snape chooses will be the side with the edge and will win over the other. The three main characters in the final book will be Snape Harry and Voldemort.

Here's how I read the final, complete plot resulting in the infamous death.

Dumbledore (D) has insisted Snape (S) go along with a faked death action in order to save Draco. S does not approve, but agrees. The plan is that Draco will notify his ally S before taking action. D knows that there is a contact in Hogsmeade and makes sure he is seen there before leaving with Harry. Harry is exposed to the art of defeating tough, magical protections and, his training complete, goes back to Hogwarts. Unfortunately, Draco has excluded S from his plans and has invited Deadeaters in without S. When S finds out, he rushes into action hoping it is not too late, taking time only to gently strike down one professor and skipping the opportunity to slay several students, including the most promising witch of her generation. (The fact that S does absolutiely no harm to anyone except D during his escape is a key clue that he is not the traitor he appears.) S gets to the tower and things are really bad. Surrounded by bad guys, D begs S to execute the agreed upon plan. (Also note that S did not allow D to die earlier when D aquired the ring.) Instead of encouraging Draco to strike as the others did, he decisively acts, even though the Dark Lord has ordered otherwise. Later, he will insist that others take no action against Harry, even though he disregarded this order earlier. His last actions are to tutor Harry further including bannig him from casting a curse and advising him on combat. Snape loses it when Harry tries to use his own spell against him like Harry's father did and forcefully ends the confrontation after revealing that he is the master wizard who devised all of those spells.

Can somebody answer the questions that i am asking please:

About the horcruxes. Well if we know that killing creates the horcrux then wouldn't that mean that the wizards and witches who killed others would have them thus making them all have horcruxes. We know already that some of the death eaters have already murdered people.

I think to split your soul in to two you must commit many murdurs. This explains how only woldemort has them or we of whom we know. If what i am saying is correct, then the people that think that dumbledore isn't really dead because he may have killed someone unpurposely and split his soul into two is most likely incorrect.

Can somebody answer this?

Do you think i am correct?

answer it

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Yes after reading a few of the previous posts, I must say that the evidence is almost decisive. Snape did not wait for Draco to kill DD but he did it himself.. He skipped several opportunities to kill or hurt Harry... He advised Harry. I think there is overwhelming evidence...

I must say that i am very very sad that one of the few caracters that i really liked and trusted is now dead. However, after reading some of the things other members have said, i agree that possibly it isnt all Snape's fault. Dumbledore was one of the wisest wizards ever, and everyone(in the order) trusted him. If Snape really is on Voldemort's side, then why has nothing bad happened to the order? Snape was able to give information(like the order is posted outside of Hogwarts and all Voldemort has to do is go kill them) that would help better the situation of Voldemort's plans by helping to get rid of the members of the Order. You might say 'yeah well then Dumbledore wouldnt trust Snape,' but Voldemort is a very wise wizard and he would be able to make it appear as if Snape had nothing to do with it. Plus, Dumbledore trusts Snape making it easy to get away with it. If Snape was really on Voldemorts side this would have happened, no doubt, he did not give Voldemort all the information that he knew.

OK.

Maybe this has some merit.

I think that, accurate or not, that this is a brilliant observation and fits well within what we know JKR's style.

Remember MadEye Moody? Crouch did a fantastic job of imitating Moody for months on end, using the polyjuice potion and doing a great deal to ostensibly help Harry to get in to and win the Tournament.

Of course, he wanted Harry to win the tourny so he would end up in LV's hands... But he had to teach Harry a great deal... It is because of Crouch Jr. that Harry could throw off the Imperius curse that LV threw at him.... etc.

So, it cannot be discounted as impossible that wormtail could have Polyjuiced and impersonated Dumbledore, for either the Order OR LV... We don’t know.

Also, I can certainly understand why Snape would loath Wormtail.

Frankly, I do not find it likely, but this is primarily because I can't conceive of a plot line that this would fit within.

Nonetheless, I will keep my eyes open in book 7 for additional clues that Wormtail was impersonating Dumbledore...

That portrait, though... Perhaps Dumbledore was already dead?

Again, I think not... but will not discount out-of-hand as preposterous.

Edit:

On the –very- off chance that Dumbledore is alive… Is it not possible that there is an enchantment that can animate a portrait, while the subject yet lives? The headmaster’s portrait might be a ruse.

Did anyone else notice that DD was never with Harry for too long before having some other pressing matter? When DD went to get Harry and stopped over to talk to Slughorn, DD stood up suddenly and ran to the bathroom. Why??? Seems odd to me... I think this is the first time I've read about a character actually stopping to go to the bathroom in the series.

In Chapter 13, Why did DD's memory come from a bottle and not from his own head like Snape would do before teaching occlumancy to Harry? Seems odd that if it were indeed DD in the office with Harry, that he wouldn't just remove the memory directly... why carry it around in a bottle? Also of note, Harry started the appointment w/DD at 8pm.. He left at dusk... Approx 1 hr. DD was concerned about time.

In chapter 17, again DD abruptly ends the lesson...

This continues for all the lessons... Like DD is pressed for time. It seems to me that we may not have seen very much if any of DD in this book. It appears to me that someone else is posing as DD, much like someone else posed as Moody in GoF. I also recall them losing a leg because of it.... much like DD's dead hand and Wormtail's dead hand...

Any other thoughts?

Slew

Like some of you said before, maybe Dumbledore set Snape to kill him on his orders so Voldemort can still trust him, which is very valuable to the order. However, if he did this it would obviously be to continue helping the Order by giving Voldy's info and if DD is dead, how will he explain that is still on their side, how will Snape continue helping the Order if the Order didnt trust him. DD would have had to tell the Order that he was allowing Snape to do WHAT EVER in order to remain in touch with Voldemort for his plan to work. But he didnt because the Order found out Snape killed and didnt say anything that hinted it was Okay, they knew DD gave him a reason. Now the Order will have nothing to do with Snape so DD telling Snape to take his life if nessiary would be worthless, so i really dont think he did it on DD orders. This makes me believe that Snape is on Voldy's side, because if DD didnt tell him it was okay to kill him then who did and why did he do it? I dont see any other explaination, if you do, please post it.

The Order knows nothing of the plans of Snape and DD. DD wanted to appear dead to EVERYONE. This would be the only way it was believable. If even one person knew that he was actually alive, then Voldemort could possibly find out the truth. That would be unacceptable. Since Snape is skilled in legilamancy and Occlumancy, I believe that he will be able to communicate with DD from Voldemort's side while preventing Voldemort and the Death Eaters from knowing the truth. This plan may be because someone in the order may be under the control of the imperius curse and in order to protect Harry, Snape and DD had to go underground. Snape may still be in a lot of trouble with Voldemort...

Another thought on the whole end of the book, that potion in the cave... DD may have known about it already... It may have even been put there by Snape... In an elaborate attempt to weaken the drinker to the point of death... or almost death... remember, Dumbledore's body laid on the ground for some time unattended. Great opportunity for a switch...

Just some thoughts....

Slew

Listen people, When Dumbledore was alone, wandless, more defensless than ever, in that room, and all of the death eaters and fenir were in there, he knew he was not going to survive. But did he plea for his life? No he used his sarcastic manners and played it cool. When Snape came in and was about to kill him, he had a look of hatred in his eyes because he did like what he was doing, or the instructions he was receiving from dumbledore. Dumby was not begging for his life, (it is completely not in his character to do so) he was cajoling snape to kill him.
And I have a theory as to why.
With Harry seeking out Lord Vomitwhore, he will have snape who after this will be SOOOO completely close to Voldy. And also, looking back to one of Harry's Private lessons with Dumby, (i think it was the last one) dumby told harry that it is his own personal will that is sooo important-that harry doesn't HAVE to kill anybody, but it is his emotional drive that is making his seek vengence for lord Vomitwhore killing all those he loves, and since there is a bond between dumby and harry, harry will be even more attune to kickin LV. When is book seven coming. AHHHH. AHH. AH.
P.S. Can I get some opinions on my post?

MOD EDIT: Hi there, FawkessLament, and welcome to the VTM forums! I'm going to have to ask you to take a quick drop by the Rules for us, because I had to edit your post a wee bit. Swearing is not allowed on the forums, nor is using asterisks in place of one. Thank-you!

One thought about the portrait of DD. The portrait gallary is of former headmasters, not necessarily dead ones. My effectively resigning, DD merits a portrait, dead or alive. At least that is how I read it.

Phoenix tears heal and their song does something too, what does it do? My previous books were destroyed by a fire and I haven't replaced them yet so can't look it up. It seems a significant detail because alot was made of Fawkes' song. It could hold the key to the mystery of whether DD is still alive.

Also, I was under the impression Avada Kadavra normally blew its victim to bits. Is that accurate- would you please look it up, somebody, and post? If it usually blew someone into unrecogniseable bits (leaving only a finger, for instance) then I feel we can safely surmise that DD's death was faked. How can this be? Here are some theories and possibilities:

Could Snape have mentally given a different spell even as he spoke the words "Avada Kadavra" to make it appear to the death eaters that he killed DD thereby becoming voldies favorite? Or more likely did DD make Snape promise to perform Avada knowing he would be somehow protected (maybe by being a phoenix animagus or maybe secretly taking the elixer of life?). Personally I like the phoenix animagus theory because Snape might fear it wouldn't be enough to save DD and try and back out ("You take too much for granted, Maybe I don't want to do it anymore...") Also, that may account for Snape's being defensive about being a coward- in spite of his actions, deep inside he WAS afraid Dumbledore may die. Fearing there may be a thread of truth in the "coward" accusation is the only reason he'd get so defensive- he doth protest too much me thinks. Plus if you go back to his conversation with Beatrix he only gets defensive when someone gets too close to what he's trying to hide or protect.

DD's Freeze charm was perhaps so that Harry would hear and see everything Draco said (for future reference) and so Harry would not retalliate against Snape thereby exposing himself to death eater attacks. Makes sense.

Dumbledore's eyes teared up when Harry said he was "DD's man through and through" because Dumbledore couldn't tell Harry of plot to fake his death because Harry stinks at Occlumency and Voldemort would find DD's death was a ruse. DD teared up because he knew how much more Harry would suffer when he appeared to die and DD longed to save Harry that pain but couldn't.

Perhaps that was partly why DD was so vehement that Harry understand that his love for his lost parents was the very weapon that would enable Harry to destroy Voldemort; perhaps DD was trying to prepare Harry to use his love for his "murdered" headmaster to be part of his strength, instead of letting it weaken him.

Do you suppose Dumbledore learned of Voldy's plot to kill him and used it as an opportunity to fake his own death and pursue the Horcruxes unsuspected? He certainly couldn't keep up all those absences from the castle without Voldy suspecting he was up to something of the sort.

Or its possible DD is dead. JK is a student of myth and often the wise old teacher dies (like Obi-Wan). Personally, I'm betting she's staging a return more like Gandalf's. Either way, Harry will have to operate without our wise old wizard leading the way, but I don't fear for Harry because Luke and Frodo did just fine and they were young and innocent too. That's what a myth is about- the impossible and inevitable victory of the young and pure-of-heart over the powerful and evil, would you agree?

Miss PhoenixRising

Hey! I Just Registered So I'm Very Excited.

I DISAGREE With ninalovesharry36.I Think You Forgot About The Prophecy.Neither Can Live While The Other Survives.So Even If Dumbledore was Alive Harry had To Kill Voldemort Alone.

i personally dont like the polyjuice potion theory for one major reason-

1) would DD really allow someone to impersonate him, when he knew of draco planning to kill him..... when he knew that it would be a dangerous task..... i dont think so.... DD would never sacrafice anyone, regaurdless of who it was (yes even wormtail)....

there is one of two options

1) DD is truely dead, i wont go into details of why i think he is b/c i would be repeating and it would make for another boring post:D

2) as stated Snape truely didnt kill DD and or DD used an animagus form (pheonix) to survive

there is no question in my mind that Snape did not want to kill DD but was forced to..... by the Vow and on DD's orders..... DD knew that draco was planning something b/c of Snape..... Snape made the Vow unwillingly, but neccessary to stay on the gud side of the DE's and the fact that Voldy would ask it anyhow...... once he told DD what has happened (the Vow) DD asked Snape to promise hed follow his orders, Snape agreed, and DD asked Snape to kill him if needed.... and Snape argued with DD (this is where Hagrid overheard them)....Snape didnt harm the Order on the way out, he spouted advise to Harry at the end, and saved Harry from being attacked... There is too much evidence pointing Snape to be good and not bad, but whether Snape killed DD or if DD survived the evidence is misleading as it points in both directions... personally, and unfortunately, i think DD is truely dead...

[FONT=Courier][COLOR=purple]Could someone post what the advice Snape gave Harry was? I don't have my book with me...

--Phoenixrising: Avada Kadarva does not blow one to bits... It says that it doesn't leave any marks whatsoever on the body, hence the reason Harry was able to bring Cedric's body back to hogwarts in GOF...

Here's a thought or two....

I still believe someone was using polyjuice to impersonate DD... For what reason exactly, I'm not 100% sure. I suspect it was wormtail for one reason only... the dead right hand. I am also not completely sure that anyone died at all... That potion he drank... could be something that Snape created specifically to weaken or kill temporarily the drinker. Would the killing curse work on someone that was already dead? Or... was someone sacrificed that was going to die anyways? DD's body was left alone for some time before they got back to it... Great opportunity for a switch... an antidote potion... or some more polyjuice...

Thoughts?

Slew

slewfoot, i have already stated what i think about the polyjuice potion in my post above

[ personally dont like the polyjuice potion theory for one major reason-

1) would DD really allow someone to impersonate him, when he knew of draco planning to kill him..... when he knew that it would be a dangerous task..... i dont think so.... DD would never sacrafice anyone, regaurdless of who it was (yes even wormtail)....
]

i do agree with the weirdness of how the effects of the Adeva Kedevra... weird, but dont you think if it was anything out of the ordinary that the Death Eaters there would have said something.... i doubt that they would have been too excited to realize that the spell was not accurately done.....

FOR THE PERSON WHO WANTED THE ADVISE---

i dont have the book with me but i can give you a summarization.... he basically told harry that he would be easy prey for the dark lord if he didnt keep his mouth shut and his mind closed.....basically summarzing all the stuff he told him during the occlumacy lessons

DUMBLEDORE IS DEAD

I know it's hard for some of you to grasp, but he is and he isn't going to magically be alive in the next book. His picture even appeared in the Headmaster's chamber...

I believe in the interview with JK she said actually stated that Dumbledore is indeed dead because Harry needs to go on alone just as with all heros in works of literature.

The picture did not talk, it could just be a picture with the photograph spell on it, where it can move but not talk. It may not be a portrait.

I'll have to check, but I have not seen the interview that you mention.

aos,

I think your conclusions are dead on and well thought out. I'm sure that we will all be pleasantly surprised as to Dumbledores fate in the next installment. I can't wait.

Samson,

Two things about the portrait... One, FORMER HEADMASTERS have pictures... not necissarily dead ones. Two, in the portrait, Dumbledore appeared to be sleeping... Not certain of the significance, but he certainly was not moving.

Otter14,

I read your opinion, interesting conclusion, but I don't see any evidence that supports your theory. You are basing it on an idea that Dumbledore would not allow someone to take a risk for him... He's been allowing Harry to take many risks for him, and most of the order risking their lives as well... I just don't see any evidence to support this idea.

KingWilder,

You may want to open you mind to other possible outcomes. In the Harry Potter world, many things are not always as they seem.


Slew

Did you also notice how DD flew off the side of the battlenments? When Bellatrix killed the fox at the begining of the story it just died ofn the spot it didn't move at all it just hit the groud dead. We must also remember that DD was slipping down, he could bearly sand due to the effects of the potion. So how could a spell that kills you on the spot lift you off the ground and throw you over the side of a battlement. I mean you would have to be lifted at least a yard off the ground and then thrown about another yard to get over the battlements. So that means that Snape might have used a non verbal spell to lift DD off the ground a half-second vefore he used the killing curse. Did you also noticve how quickly everyone semmeed to recover after they heard DD was dead? Is it possible that DD told the Order that if something happens not to worry because he would be okay?

Although i do think that DD is dead see my post in "who is Snape really beetraying" to see why. I also think that the theory about DD being a animges or how ever you spell it is highly improbable, because all of then are registered at the ministry. I know that Sirius wan't but i think DD would be because when was he ever broke the rules.

MOD EDIT: Please try not to double-post. Simply click the 'edit' button of you wish to add on or change your post. Thanks!

okay well first off i think that DD did allow someone to take on his character for multiple purposes.

but on the AK spell not really being what it was. Lest we forget that snape is the HBP and he made up his own spells, he yells at harry for trying to use one against him. Although im sure its difficult it's not impossible for Snape to make up a spell to have the same look and more or less the same effect of AK but not have the effect to kill them.

Any possiblity?

i think it could be a possibility because usually when th ak spell is used they pretty much drop dead but Dumbledore went flying.

But on the flip side why would Dumbledore's portrait be hung up in the office if he wasnt dead? that is where all of the Dead headmasters and mistresses portraits go.whY would he want everyone to suffer and believe he is dead?But more than this Snape shouted the AK spell not a made-up spell of his choice im pretty sure, correct me if im wrong, there is no way Snape could have made up his own spell whilst using the exact same words, it is just impossible. I believe Snape IS and will remain faithful to dumbledore, whether or not he is dead is just speculation, you never know what could happen these stories are based upon wizards and fictional places need i say more, i mean dont get me wrong i love these books, they are so gripping.

There isnt much to go on clue wise, but earlier in the story, Dumbledore said he would have been killed when he destroyed the ring horcrux had it not been for Snape. It was a part of the plan i believ the whole time Snape could have refused to help Dumbledore therefore killing him because whatever Snape did, it saved his llife..

Also Snape has had plenty chances to kill other people i just dont see him as a murderer. He could have killed lupin when he was making potions for him. I know off subject

well once again thank you

ive thought of the spell somemore, Well dont you have to concentrate for a spellto work thank about it, Snape could have used a nonvebal spell to lift and throw but not kill wdumbledore while shouyting the ak spell making everyone think he killed him, but not cocentrating upon it (part of the plan)

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A couple of additional thoughts that seem germain to the discussion.

1) The books pointed out in a couple of places that in order to properly cast the AK curse, you have to put a lot of intent and hatred into it. Harry cast a failed version of one in the last book. Snape could cast a false spell just by not putting any intent behind it.

2) DD planned for Snape's departure. He explained to Harry the the DofDA teacher can only last for one year. By moving Snape into that role, he had to be planning for Snape's departure. It also explains why Snape was denied the job for so long.

Slewfoot wrote "Two things about the portrait... One, FORMER HEADMASTERS have pictures... not necissarily dead ones. Two, in the portrait, Dumbledore appeared to be sleeping... Not certain of the significance, but he certainly was not moving."

The significance to this comes from OotP -- in OotP the former headmasters often appear to be sleeping, even when they are listening to everything that is going on in the office.

Here is the link to the interview with JKR (there are plenty of spoilers there, so don't read it unless you have read the book -- of course don't read this thread unless you've read the book):

http://www.mugglenet.com/jkrinterview.shtml

Among some of the key quotes to this thread:

1) ES: I know Dumbledore likes to see the good in people but he seems trusting almost to the point of recklessness sometimes.

JKR: [Laughter] Yes, I would agree. I would agree. ..... I would say that I think it has been demonstrated, particularly in books five and six that immense brainpower does not protect you from emotional mistakes and I think Dumbledore really exemplifies that.

2) ES: Was Dumbledore planning to die?

JKR: [Pause.] Do you think that's going to be the big theory?

MA & ES: Yes. It’ll be a big theory.

JKR: [Pause.] Well, I don't want to shoot that one down. [A little laughter.] I have to give people hope.

MA: It goes back to the question of whether Snape is a double-double-double-triple-

JKR: [Laughs] Double-double-quadruple-to-the-power-of - yeah.

MA: …whether this had been planned, and since Dumbledore had this knowledge of Draco the whole year, had they had a discussion that said, "Should this happen, you have to act as if it is entirely your intention to just walk forward and kill me, because if you don't, Draco will die, the Unbreakable Vow, you'll die," and so on —

JKR: No, I see that, and yeah, I follow your line there. I can't — I mean, obviously, there are lines of speculation I don't want to shut down. Generally speaking, I shut down those lines of speculation that are plain unprofitable. Even with the shippers. God bless them, but they had a lot of fun with it. It's when people get really off the wall — it's when people devote hours of their time to proving that Snape is a vampire that I feel it's time to step in, because there's really nothing in the canon that supports that.

<<i.e. JKR did not seem to consider the double/triple cross type theory>>

3) ES: Dumbledore is unrivaled in his knowledge of magic –

JKR: Mmhm.

ES: Where did he learn it all?

JKR: I see him primarily as someone who would be self-taught. However, he in his time had access to superb teachers at Hogwarts, so he was educated in the same way that everyone else is educated. Dumbledore's family would be a profitable line of inquiry

4) JKR: Yeah, well, I think if you take a step back, in the genre of writing that I'm working in, almost always the hero must go on alone. That's the way it is, we all know that, so the question is when and how, isn't it, if you know anything about the construction of that kind of plot.

ES: The wise old wizard with the beard always dies.

JKR: Well, that's basically what I'm saying, yes.

[Laughter.]

MA: It's interesting, because that moment — I think we all sort of felt like he was going to die as soon as he started imparting these huge swallows of wisdom.

JKR: Mm.

<< It looks like Aberforth may still have a role to play, but Albus does not.>>