Ok, in the 6th book, Trelawney claims that she was rudely interrupted in her prediction making by Snape.
However in the third book when she makes her second prediction, she has no recollection of it.
Now, we know from Book 5 that the person who overheard the prophecy only heard part of the prediction before running away.
Which leaves us with a few scenarios.
Firstly, Snape heard the try-hard prophecies that Trelawney was making before she went into the 'real trance'. He then went on his merry little way back downstairs and someone else heard the real prophecy and ran away.
Secondly, Snape overheard the prophecy, but not the whole thing, which means that he would have missed his interview and Dd would probably have known at this point that he was a DE and why would he have employed him so shortly (I mean, we need a bit of a crossover period for him to go and be Dd's spy right? Especially if it really WAS LV idea for Snape to go work at Hogwarts as is claimed at the start of Book 6). However IF HE DID hear the real prophecy, then how did Trelawney know that he was there? She would not have gone out of the trance until the end of the prophecy at which point, Snape has already left.
Thirdly, Snape was already on the side of Dd and was going for the interview, at which point someone else would have heard the prophecy and run off. However with this one, the chance of that DE seeing Snape at some point in the cross over period is pretty likely. So IF IT WASN'T Snape, who was the one who overheard the prophecy and what kind of interaction, if any, was there between that person and Snape.
Maybe they were even caught out by Snape and THAT'S why they ran away early. At which point, Snape might have entered the room and this is when Trelawney believes that she was interrupted by him.
Full Version: Trelawney's Predictions
I was instead intrigued by Trelawney's off handed card reading. HBP, chapter 10, pg 195-196 (us version):
"...Professor Trelawney appeared around a corner, muttering t herself as she shuffled a pack of dirty-looking playing cards, reading them as she walked.
"Two of spades: conflict," she murmered, as she passed the place where Harry crouched, hidden. "Seven of spades: an ill omen. Ten of spades: violence. Knave of spades: a dark young man, possibly troubled, one who dislikes the questioner_-" She stopped dead, right on the other side of Harry's statue.
"Well, that can't be right,..."
If you read this closely, it could be forshadowing events to come in the final chapters.
"...Professor Trelawney appeared around a corner, muttering t herself as she shuffled a pack of dirty-looking playing cards, reading them as she walked.
"Two of spades: conflict," she murmered, as she passed the place where Harry crouched, hidden. "Seven of spades: an ill omen. Ten of spades: violence. Knave of spades: a dark young man, possibly troubled, one who dislikes the questioner_-" She stopped dead, right on the other side of Harry's statue.
"Well, that can't be right,..."
If you read this closely, it could be forshadowing events to come in the final chapters.
| QUOTE (Snapelover @ Jul 24 2005, 07:32 AM) |
| I was instead intrigued by Trelawney's off handed card reading. HBP, chapter 10, pg 195-196 (us version): If you read this closely, it could be forshadowing events to come in the final chapters. |
Hmmm, thanks for that Snapelover! I'd forgotten about them and it's a very interesting thought.
I think there is a lot more to Trelawney than it seems. I personally have to say that I don't particularly hold much in divination, however the more that's learnt about her, the more that it seems that when she actually predicts something without trying then it's pretty accurate.
yeah, I believe crazy Trelawney has some very interesting things to say. I believe she really is a seer, even not a consistant one. I want to gp back and see some other things she has said. You know Jo...can't take anything for granted. Not even an old coot ike Trelawney 
I believe that DD said true things when he said to Harry he overheard only a half of the prophecy. Because when DD decides to reveal the truth to Harry, he ALWAYS says the truth.
DD either decides not to tell Harry or if he tells something, it's true.
Trelawney isn't as stupid as she may seem. She has some powers in her brain but not in every single prediction stuff.
DD either decides not to tell Harry or if he tells something, it's true.
Trelawney isn't as stupid as she may seem. She has some powers in her brain but not in every single prediction stuff.
I re-read that section where trelawney tells Harry that Snape interrupted her interview with DD. I figured out exactly what happened (I think)...So SHe starts making the prediction, and Snape is listening and hears the first part, and then rushes out to leave, but the barman stopped him(I think DD says that in OOTP), and dragged him back up to tell DD that Snape was listening, and by that point Trelawney was finished and normal again, and saw Snape with the barman at the door. So then I guess it makes more sense that she saw Snape, because she was done with the prophecy! And by the way, I believe Snape is good, and as it was said in the book, he did not know what was going to happen when he told LV the prophecy.
Does Dumbledore ever say that it is SNAPE that overheard the prophecy?
I mean, we know that SOMEONE heard it and took it back to Voldemort and we know that Trelawney reckons that Severus interupted her, which gives Harry the interpretation that it was him who dobbed the prophecy in. But Dumbledore never says that I don't think.
I realise that Snape convinces Dumbledore to trust him 16 odd years ago, however I think if he was the one to be turning Harry- or given at the time Neville- into LV, that's a pretty big asking for forgiveness.
Which makes me think that Trelawney had someone else around her at the time. But for Dumbledore to have known that the person only heard half the prophecy, they must have been caught.... right???
I mean, we know that SOMEONE heard it and took it back to Voldemort and we know that Trelawney reckons that Severus interupted her, which gives Harry the interpretation that it was him who dobbed the prophecy in. But Dumbledore never says that I don't think.
I realise that Snape convinces Dumbledore to trust him 16 odd years ago, however I think if he was the one to be turning Harry- or given at the time Neville- into LV, that's a pretty big asking for forgiveness.
Which makes me think that Trelawney had someone else around her at the time. But for Dumbledore to have known that the person only heard half the prophecy, they must have been caught.... right???
I've got a question.
Why didn't DD listen to Trelawney's idea after having heard so many real Prophecys made by her?(the first one that related Harry and Voldemort together;the second one about Wormtail's escape and Voldemort's back;the third one about the lightning struck tower)
Is it because that DD himself hasn't studied Divination and thus ignore its importance?Or he always think that love is the most important thing,not the Prophecy?
Why didn't DD listen to Trelawney's idea after having heard so many real Prophecys made by her?(the first one that related Harry and Voldemort together;the second one about Wormtail's escape and Voldemort's back;the third one about the lightning struck tower)
Is it because that DD himself hasn't studied Divination and thus ignore its importance?Or he always think that love is the most important thing,not the Prophecy?
| QUOTE (k6-2 @ Oct 29 2005, 11:56 PM) |
| I've got a question. Why didn't DD listen to Trelawney's idea after having heard so many real Prophecys made by her?(the first one that related Harry and Voldemort together;the second one about Wormtail's escape and Voldemort's back;the third one about the lightning struck tower) Is it because that DD himself hasn't studied Divination and thus ignore its importance?Or he always think that love is the most important thing,not the Prophecy? |
Yes, this aspect of Dumbledore is quite possibly the only aspect of him that annoys me.....
Why doesn't he listen to Trelawney?!?! haha
He knows she made what is most likely the most important Prophecy in Wizarding history, yet he doesn't seem to listen to anthing else she says...
He techincally could have saved A LOT of deaths from Wromtail's escape, and HIS OWN DEATH (although I do not believe Dumbledore is actually dead) by listening to her other prophecies and predictions.
And not only does he not care about the predictions, he seems to show her little respect. If any other techer -- or even a student for that matter -- came rushing into DD's office with something VERY important that could be life-threatening, DD would be listening in a heartbeat, but he semed to just blow her off in HBP when she came in with the cards..........
You can argue that he was in a rush to go to the Horcrux with Harry, but he had all night and did not seem the least bit rushed when Harry went to DD's office......?
What do you guys think??
_daviD
Pixymajik:
P544-545 chap 25 “the seer overheard”
Professor Trelawney: “…I remember I was starting to feel a little odd, I had not eaten much that day…but then…” <cut> “I was rudely interrupted by Severus Snape!” <cut>
Harry: “What?”
Professor Trelawney: “Yes, there was a commotion outside the door and it flew open, and there was rather uncouth barman standing with Snape, who was waffling about having come the wrong way up the stairs, although I’m afraid that I myself rather though he had been apprehended eavesdropping on my interview with DD -you see he himself was seeking a job at the time, and no doubt, hoped to pick up tips!...”
P544-545 chap 25 “the seer overheard”
Professor Trelawney: “…I remember I was starting to feel a little odd, I had not eaten much that day…but then…” <cut> “I was rudely interrupted by Severus Snape!” <cut>
Harry: “What?”
Professor Trelawney: “Yes, there was a commotion outside the door and it flew open, and there was rather uncouth barman standing with Snape, who was waffling about having come the wrong way up the stairs, although I’m afraid that I myself rather though he had been apprehended eavesdropping on my interview with DD -you see he himself was seeking a job at the time, and no doubt, hoped to pick up tips!...”
| QUOTE |
| Pixymajik: Secondly, Snape overheard the prophecy, but not the whole thing, which means that he would have missed his interview and Dd would probably have known at this point that he was a DE and why would he have employed him so shortly (I mean, we need a bit of a crossover period for him to go and be Dd's spy right? Especially if it really WAS LV idea for Snape to go work at Hogwarts as is claimed at the start of Book 6). However IF HE DID hear the real prophecy, then how did Trelawney know that he was there? She would not have gone out of the trance until the end of the prophecy at which point, Snape has already left. Thirdly, Snape was already on the side of Dd and was going for the interview, at which point someone else would have heard the prophecy and run off. However with this one, the chance of that DE seeing Snape at some point in the cross over period is pretty likely. So IF IT WASN'T Snape, who was the one who overheard the prophecy and what kind of interaction, if any, was there between that person and Snape. Maybe they were even caught out by Snape and THAT'S why they ran away early. At which point, Snape might have entered the room and this is when Trelawney believes that she was interrupted by him. |
No. Here is what DD said:
P549 chap 25 “the seer overheard”
DD: “Professor Snape made a terrible mistake. He was still in LV’s employ on the night he heard the first half of Professor Trelawney’s prophecy. Naturally, he hastened to tell his master what he had heard, for it concerned his master most deeply. But he did not know –he had no possible way of knowing- which boy LV would hunt from then onward, or that the parents would destroy in his murderous quest were people that Professor Snape knew, that they where your mother and father-”
That means that he hasn’t “employed him so shortly”. So he didn’t get the job that day, but just after Harry’s parents were murdered. Proof:
Chap 25 “the seer overheard” p546
DD: “You have no idea of the remorse Professor Snape felt when he realized how LV had interpreted the prophecy, Harry. I believe it to be the greatest regret of his life and the reason that he returned…”
| QUOTE |
| Pixymajik : “Does Dumbledore ever say that it is SNAPE that overheard the prophecy? I mean, we know that SOMEONE heard it and took it back to Voldemort and we know that Trelawney reckons that Severus interupted her, which gives Harry the interpretation that it was him who dobbed the prophecy in. But Dumbledore never says that I don't think.” |
Chap 25 “the seer overheard” p546
DD: “You have no idea of the remorse Professor Snape felt when he realized how LV had interpreted the prophecy, Harry. (well that’s stupid, it’s pretty sure that LV would kill the child!! How else he could have interpreted the prophecy??) I believe it to be the greatest regret of his life and the reason that he returned…”
Yes, Pixymajik, I’m afraid so…
| QUOTE |
| Pixymajik: “I realise that Snape convinces Dumbledore to trust him 16 odd years ago, however I think if he was the one to be turning Harry- or given at the time Neville- into LV, that's a pretty big asking for forgiveness.” |
Well…ur right, but we still don’t know what Snape told DD but he obviously believed him:
P549 chap 25 “the seer overheard”
Harry: “ …Professor..how can you be sure Snape’s on our side?”
DD: “I am sure. I trust Severus Snape completely”.
| QUOTE |
| Pixymajik: “Which makes me think that Trelawney had someone else around her at the time. But for Dumbledore to have known that the person only heard half the prophecy, they must have been caught.... right???” |
No, there wasn’t someone else. Yes he was caught: its was Snape. Even if DD doesn’t convince me that much.
| QUOTE |
| Pixymajik: “Ok, in the 6th book, Trelawney claims that she was rudely interrupted in her prediction making by Snape. However in the third book when she makes her second prediction, she has no recollection of it. Now, we know from Book 5 that the person who overheard the prophecy only heard part of the prediction before running away.” |
No, he didn’t run away. I’m sorry guys I only have the French version
of book 5:DD: “…c’est que l’espion présent ce soir-la fut repéré et jeté dehors alors que Sibylle commençait tout juste à me révéler la prophétie ”.
(forgive me, I don’t speak english that well) but the translation is :
DD: “…The spy present that night was spotted and thrown outside while Trelawny just began to reveal me the prophecy”.
So it is Snape, even if I don’t really remember that he was thrown outside. They don’t specify this.
| QUOTE |
| Pixymajik: “Firstly, Snape heard the try-hard prophecies that Trelawney was making before she went into the 'real trance'. He then went on his merry little way back downstairs and someone else heard the real prophecy and ran away.” |
No, because DD said (French book also!
) book 5:Harry: “ Alors, il n’a entendu que…”
DD : “ Que le début, la partie qui annonce la naissance au mois de juillet d’un garçon dont les parents ont par trois fois défie LV ”
Means :
Harry : “So he only heard…”
DD: “ The beginning, the part that announces the birth of a boy on July of which the parents have by three times challenges LV” (omg that doesn’t sound that good
but you understood!)But there’s something that I don’t understand. If Snape only heard the beginning of the prophecy as DD said, and if he was caught and P.Trelawney saw him, that means that she had finished the prophecy. So how could Snape only hear the beginning? Unless there was too much noise and he couldn’t hear the end (it’s strange even if Trelawney said that “There was a commotion outside the door” ( book 6, p545, chap 25)
…Or I misunderstood or JKR made a mistake, or DD lied to harry.
Hope that I answered your questions Pixymajik
Heya Kats and welcome to both the vertaserum forums as well as this discussion 
it's great to get some new blood and thoughts into the posts! If you haven't already, check out the Newbie Central and also the Rules- the links are posted in my signature
In regards to your post- I'm a little confused and wondering if maybe you've missed or misinterpreted (due to my inability to explain things as they seem in my head ) a couple of things that I posted.
First of all, you've said at the end of your post-
it's great to get some new blood and thoughts into the posts! If you haven't already, check out the Newbie Central and also the Rules- the links are posted in my signature In regards to your post- I'm a little confused and wondering if maybe you've missed or misinterpreted (due to my inability to explain things as they seem in my head
) a couple of things that I posted.First of all, you've said at the end of your post-
| QUOTE |
| But there’s something that I don’t understand. If Snape only heard the beginning of the prophecy as DD said, and if he was caught and P.Trelawney saw him, that means that she had finished the prophecy. So how could Snape only hear the beginning? Unless there was too much noise and he couldn’t hear the end (it’s strange even if Trelawney said that “There was a commotion outside the door” ( book 6, p545, chap 25) …Or I misunderstood or JKR made a mistake, or DD lied to harry. |
Which is basically what I've been trying to get at- Trelawney claims that she saw Snape. Dumbledore claims that it was Snape who heard the prophecy and was LV's spy. JKR claims that Snape only heard part of the prophecy. Trelawney doesn't appear to remember her 'real' predictions, let alone be aware that someone else is there when she does them.
SOMEONE HAS MADE A MISTAKE HERE.
What I said in my original post, was a couple of potential scenarios based on the single parts of the information. We're told that Snape heard the prophecy, therefore scenario 1.
We're told that Snape was applying for a job there, however that he was emplyed in the services of LV, therefore scenario 2. However on that note, we worked out in another thread that it was over a year after Snape heard the prophecy that he began working at Hogwarts and the events of that time are still not fully knowing.
Scenairo three was me tossing out ideas trying to work out timelines- I'd really hate to think that JKR has made a mistake when there seems to be so much thought put into her world and since we know that she has a backstory for just about every character there. However the facts are:
Trelawney didn't remember her second prophecy and Dd claims that she didn't seem to know that she made the first one either.
Trelawney believes that she was hired on her dazzling skills and doesn't seem to know that she made a prophecy about Harry/Neville.
Someone heard the prophecy- apparently only half of it- and informed LV of it.
Trelawney claims that Snape interrupted her during the interview.
IT DOESN'T FIT.
Trelawney wouldn't have known that Snape was there if he entered while she was making the prophecy. If Dumbledore had caught him, and had him thrown out, one would think that he'd erase the memory if given the opportunity or done something else other than let him run on his merry way given what he was informed. Dumbledore hired Snape a year and a bit later because Snape was sorry. I don't think Dd is being entirely honest, because this just is a lousy excuse to believe anyone. And I also don't think that he would have let Snape get away with walking. If Trelawney saw him BEFORE she made the predictions, he wouldn't have heard a thing (since he's been thrown out). If Trelawney saw him AFTER she made the predictions, then he would have either heard the whole thing, or the later half of the prophecy, which doesn't match up with what we've been told.
In regards to the time in which Snape was employed, I've suggested in another thread that it would be the start of the term. This is getting us off the topic, so please check out the Who is Snape betraying thread, however in OOTP he claims that he's been there for 14 years, which is right before Harry's parents were killed (term started two months earlier).
hey..Pixymajik (Btw nice nickname )
P544-545 chap 25 “the seer overheard”
Professor Trelawney: “…I remember I was starting to feel a little odd, I had not eaten much that day…but then…” <cut> “I was rudely interrupted by Severus Snape!”
So when she finished the prophecy Snape was already caught. Don't you agree?
Then why didn't he heard the whole prophecy?
She used "rudely" that means that when she finished the prophecy there was too much noise or kind of.
In fact she said:
“There was a commotion outside the door” ( book 6, p545, chap 25)
So he was outside when she finished the prophecy. He couldn't hear all the prophecy..even if he wanted there was too much noise. And that means that he was trying to escape to tell LV about the prophecy. He didn't hear all the prophecy maybe because he saw that the barman noticed him.
So: Snape arrived, he was searching a job (LV sended him), he heard something weird, it was the begining of the prophecy, the barman noticed him, Snape tried to escape but he was caught by the barman (P544-545 chap 25 “the seer overheard”
Professor Trelawney:“..and there was rather uncouth barman standing with Snape")
There was too much noise because he was thrown outside. So when Trelawney finished the prophecy she only saw Snape outside and all the commotion, so she never knew that he heard the begining of the prophecy (she never knew that she made a prophecy) and that Snape was inside first. So Snape told LV what he heard. LV wanted to kill harry, and then Snape came to DD before LV murdered harry's parents, and he told DD that he never knew that LV would interpret the prophecy that way and blabla..
But there's still something, why, when harry heard the prophecy in DD's office, he didn't heard all the commotion? And Snape and everything..I mean, it was DD's memory, he knew what was happening, he knew that it was Snape and everything..so why? (or maybe he extracted that part of the prophecy because it wasn't important or he didn't want (in book 5) harry to know who was the spy..or maybe JKR though that is wasn't that important.. ??)
)P544-545 chap 25 “the seer overheard”
Professor Trelawney: “…I remember I was starting to feel a little odd, I had not eaten much that day…but then…” <cut> “I was rudely interrupted by Severus Snape!”
So when she finished the prophecy Snape was already caught. Don't you agree?
Then why didn't he heard the whole prophecy?
She used "rudely" that means that when she finished the prophecy there was too much noise or kind of.
In fact she said:
“There was a commotion outside the door” ( book 6, p545, chap 25)
So he was outside when she finished the prophecy. He couldn't hear all the prophecy..even if he wanted there was too much noise. And that means that he was trying to escape to tell LV about the prophecy. He didn't hear all the prophecy maybe because he saw that the barman noticed him.
So: Snape arrived, he was searching a job (LV sended him), he heard something weird, it was the begining of the prophecy, the barman noticed him, Snape tried to escape but he was caught by the barman (P544-545 chap 25 “the seer overheard”
Professor Trelawney:“..and there was rather uncouth barman standing with Snape")
There was too much noise because he was thrown outside. So when Trelawney finished the prophecy she only saw Snape outside and all the commotion, so she never knew that he heard the begining of the prophecy (she never knew that she made a prophecy) and that Snape was inside first. So Snape told LV what he heard. LV wanted to kill harry, and then Snape came to DD before LV murdered harry's parents, and he told DD that he never knew that LV would interpret the prophecy that way and blabla..
But there's still something, why, when harry heard the prophecy in DD's office, he didn't heard all the commotion? And Snape and everything..I mean, it was DD's memory, he knew what was happening, he knew that it was Snape and everything..so why? (or maybe he extracted that part of the prophecy because it wasn't important or he didn't want (in book 5) harry to know who was the spy..or maybe JKR though that is wasn't that important..
??)
felix_felicis_444 - I think it's possible that the cards really conveyed something to Trelawney, but I doubt that she is any good at handling real predictions when they actually come to her. Years of pretense and self-deception must have taken its toll.
I think that Trelawney noticed Severus Snape lurking about and, inperceptive as always, thought that Snape was spying on her, when he must in fact have been spying on Dumbledore. She has a long history of stringing fact and fiction together, I wouldn't take anything she is saying too seriously. So it's perhaps not surprising that everybody disregards her anxiety about the omens of doom in the cards, specially because she isn't in a trance when she makes the prediction.
Yes, Dumbledore could have picked up on the fact that she was hesitant to make a prediction. She never hesitates making the most dire false predictions, so her uncertainty could have alarmed him. But how much did Dumbledore see or hear about Trelawney's anxiety? She was finally on her way to Dumbledore's office to discuss the matter, but then Harry stopped her and the whole issue got swiped aside by Harry's rage against Snape.
Kats - it's possible that it was as Kerfuffle said... Snape only heard part of the prediction and Trelawney only noticed the commotion after she had finished, and took it for a rude interruption of her interview, as she herself was not aware of having gone into a trance. She must have strung the interview, the commotion, finding out it had been Snape, and finding out later that Snape had applied for a teaching job, and piecing this things together in her unique way to become convinced that Snape had meant to interrupt her interview. I don't think that the prophecy itself was interrupted or her trance.
Just a thought: why didn't Harry offer Dumbledore to use the Pensieve to show his memory of Trelawney's second prediction?
I think that Trelawney noticed Severus Snape lurking about and, inperceptive as always, thought that Snape was spying on her, when he must in fact have been spying on Dumbledore. She has a long history of stringing fact and fiction together, I wouldn't take anything she is saying too seriously. So it's perhaps not surprising that everybody disregards her anxiety about the omens of doom in the cards, specially because she isn't in a trance when she makes the prediction.
Yes, Dumbledore could have picked up on the fact that she was hesitant to make a prediction. She never hesitates making the most dire false predictions, so her uncertainty could have alarmed him. But how much did Dumbledore see or hear about Trelawney's anxiety? She was finally on her way to Dumbledore's office to discuss the matter, but then Harry stopped her and the whole issue got swiped aside by Harry's rage against Snape.
Kats - it's possible that it was as Kerfuffle said... Snape only heard part of the prediction and Trelawney only noticed the commotion after she had finished, and took it for a rude interruption of her interview, as she herself was not aware of having gone into a trance. She must have strung the interview, the commotion, finding out it had been Snape, and finding out later that Snape had applied for a teaching job, and piecing this things together in her unique way to become convinced that Snape had meant to interrupt her interview. I don't think that the prophecy itself was interrupted or her trance.
Just a thought: why didn't Harry offer Dumbledore to use the Pensieve to show his memory of Trelawney's second prediction?
Forgive me if im wrong - but I thought that Professor Trelawney only ever made two true predictions - the prophecy about him and Voldemort and the prophecy about voldemort returning and pettigrew escaping.
someone posted writing that professor trelawney made a prophecy about the lighnting struck tower?
whaaaaaaaa?????????
Can someone fill me in!
someone posted writing that professor trelawney made a prophecy about the lighnting struck tower?
whaaaaaaaa?????????
Can someone fill me in!
Melanie Louise
| QUOTE |
| Forgive me if im wrong - but I thought that Professor Trelawney only ever made two true predictions - the prophecy about him and Voldemort and the prophecy about voldemort returning and pettigrew escaping. someone posted writing that professor trelawney made a prophecy about the lighnting struck tower? |
p543 chap 25 "the seer overheard"
Trelawney: "Again and again, no matter how I lay them out-" And she pulled a card dramatically from underneath her shawls."-the lightning-struck tower," she wispered. "Calamity. Disaster. Coming nearer all the time..."
I have thought of this and realised something. Remember in OotP, Trelawney gave the prophecy (as Dumbledore says) and then they found out a mysterious (or mysterious to us) is found to be spying on them and thrown from the building half way through the prophecy. We find out in HBP that it was Snape. However, this does not make sense. Snape would have heard the entire prophecy. Its possible that many have come to this conclusion...
Also, it might show why Dumbledore trusts Snape. Or have we come to the same conclusion that Harry has. Dumbledore never said that it was because Snape felt bad for what he had done which is why he trusts Snape. Its something else that might not be told yet...but thats for a different thread I guess...
He had the full prophecy...Dumbledore lied to Harry on purpose so Voldemort wouldn't find out (the whole connection thing in OotP).
Also, it might show why Dumbledore trusts Snape. Or have we come to the same conclusion that Harry has. Dumbledore never said that it was because Snape felt bad for what he had done which is why he trusts Snape. Its something else that might not be told yet...but thats for a different thread I guess...
He had the full prophecy...Dumbledore lied to Harry on purpose so Voldemort wouldn't find out (the whole connection thing in OotP).
Uh...No...I think he really heard it all and told Voldy everything he heard. Besdies, who said Dumbledore wasn't wrong? He himself said everyone makes mistakes, even he himself. Clue maybe???
Anyways, I'm sure Dumbledore thought that Snape turned good. Maybe he is, but that's for a different thread.
Anyways, I'm sure Dumbledore thought that Snape turned good. Maybe he is, but that's for a different thread.
I'm liking how this sounds, crsdba, but I'm not exactly sure what you mean, to be honest. Are you saying that Snape must have heard the entire prophecy? How? If he was thrown from the building, then he would only have been able to tell half of it to Voldemort, and we know that half is all he had. That's why he went nuts trying to get the whole thing - because he acted on half information that we know Snape gave to him, but we also know that he could equally have chosen Neville to mark 'as his equal'. Doesn't that mean that Snape gave him everything he could?
Oh, wait...I'm going to shut up now because I'm arguing against my beloved Snape, and I'm not going to do that...
*sticks fingers in ears and chants 'He is innocent, he is innocent'*
Oh, wait...I'm going to shut up now because I'm arguing against my beloved Snape, and I'm not going to do that...
*sticks fingers in ears and chants 'He is innocent, he is innocent'*
The theory that Snape heard the whole propechy stems from the fact that Professor Trelawney told Harry that she knew that Snape was the one listening, so she knows he was thrown out, yet she does not remember giving the prophecy, so unless she went into 2 trances, she must have said the whole thing and then Snape was detected. However, it is possible that Snape was discovered in the middle of the prophecy, and could not hear the second half due to the person yelling at him or something like that. Then Trelawney "woke up" and caught the tail end of the discovery. Dumbledore, with his intense powers of concentration, was able to tune out what was happening outside the door until she was done speaking.
What I'm trying to say is that some parts don't add up unless Snape heard it all...
If they were interupted then Dumbledore didn't hear the whole thing, and Snape didn't hear it all leading to him giving Voldemort all he knew. Therefore Dumbledore lied to Harry when telling the whole prophecy to him.
OR
Dumbledore heard it all, and Snape was discovered when it was finished. "Thrown" from the building. Told Voldemort but he must have not said the whole thing to him for either his own uses or he became good that night. Dumbledore would still have had to lie to Harry or Voldemort would find out about Snape (Dumbledore's spy) and then Snape would be in some trouble. He would find through Harry...remember in OotP how Voldemort could get into Harry's mind or something. Dumbledore even said he saw a shadow of Voldemort behind Harry's eyes.
If they were interupted then Dumbledore didn't hear the whole thing, and Snape didn't hear it all leading to him giving Voldemort all he knew. Therefore Dumbledore lied to Harry when telling the whole prophecy to him.
OR
Dumbledore heard it all, and Snape was discovered when it was finished. "Thrown" from the building. Told Voldemort but he must have not said the whole thing to him for either his own uses or he became good that night. Dumbledore would still have had to lie to Harry or Voldemort would find out about Snape (Dumbledore's spy) and then Snape would be in some trouble. He would find through Harry...remember in OotP how Voldemort could get into Harry's mind or something. Dumbledore even said he saw a shadow of Voldemort behind Harry's eyes.
We know that if you go to where the prophecies are in the Department of Mysteries and take one from the shelf it rests on (or whatever it is) that your brain gets "scrambled" or something happens (feel free to correct me). Likewise, the death eaters knew enough to allow Harry to pick up the prophecy before acting in OotP. They were going on Voldemort's orders.
Did Voldemort ever go into the Prophecy (Hall of Prophecies?) and someone told him this (I guess this would be when he graduated from Hogwarts). Does he have death eaters who were Unspeakables (which may lead to other consequences)? Or does he have death eaters who know someone, who know someone, who knows an unspeakable who told them the ins and outs of the place?
If it goes like the last part (knows someone who knows someone, etc) then theres not really a problem as to how Voldemort knows of the prophecy place (is it the Hall of Prophecies?), except that one unspeakable must be brought to justice. Same goes if one or few of his death eaters are unspeakables. However, if he were in there when he graduated then there must be an even greater purpose...such as his very own prophecy...is that possible? He had to have had a motivation to kill his parents (that was before he graduated), so maybe there was something in the Chamber of Secrets that led him to that conclusion (unless the time line doesn't add up). What do ya'll think? Did he have his own prophecy to go on too? How did he know not to touch Harry's prophecy? (He could have done it without all that trouble)...
Did Voldemort ever go into the Prophecy (Hall of Prophecies?) and someone told him this (I guess this would be when he graduated from Hogwarts). Does he have death eaters who were Unspeakables (which may lead to other consequences)? Or does he have death eaters who know someone, who know someone, who knows an unspeakable who told them the ins and outs of the place?
If it goes like the last part (knows someone who knows someone, etc) then theres not really a problem as to how Voldemort knows of the prophecy place (is it the Hall of Prophecies?), except that one unspeakable must be brought to justice. Same goes if one or few of his death eaters are unspeakables. However, if he were in there when he graduated then there must be an even greater purpose...such as his very own prophecy...is that possible? He had to have had a motivation to kill his parents (that was before he graduated), so maybe there was something in the Chamber of Secrets that led him to that conclusion (unless the time line doesn't add up). What do ya'll think? Did he have his own prophecy to go on too? How did he know not to touch Harry's prophecy? (He could have done it without all that trouble)...
Remember in the 5th book how Broderick Bode was in St. Mungos because he had lost his mind? Voldemort had had one of his death eaters put the imperious curse on Broderick Bode and forced him to try to take the prophesy off of the shelf. Broderick faught the curse, but he couldn't stop from touching the prophesy, at which point he lost his mind. That is why he was killed in St. Mungos. A death eater killed him because they knew Bode was regaining his mind and memory. That's how Voldemort knew he had to have Harry get it for him . (Or he would have to do it himself, which would be a meaningless risk.)
Thanks, that explains how he knew not to touch the prophecy. How did he know to use someone else in the first place though? He must have had to ask someone. What drove him to retrieve the prophecy if Snape supposedly told him the "full" prophecy? Hey, I never thought of that. I guess its a brand new trust issue...
That is why Voldemort was so angry with Avery in OotP in Harry's dream. Avery had told him that any Unspeakable could get a prophecy from the Hall of Prophecies, but he was proved wrong when Bode lost his mind.Rookwood was the death eater who told Voldemort about this, and once Voldemort found out, he had Avery come to him, and he tortured him.
Wouldn't he have only been able to ask Snape? No one else was there except Trelawney, Snape, Dumbledore, and the guy who works there. Once again, could it be a trust issue? Who else would he have asked if it wasn't the whole prophecy he heard? If Snape is trustworthy, why did he want the prophecy?
Well I am a little confused about what you are asking, but yes, Snape was the only death eater who heard the prophecy. Voldemort assumed that he had missed something about the prophecy when his spell backfired. Voldemort never heard the "the dark lord will mark him as his equal" bit.
Snape may have actually told Voldemort (before he went after Harry) what he had heard, but also that he hadn't been able to hear the whole thing. Then when Voldemort was reborn, it was his mission to figure out what the rest of the prophecy was. I don't think he ever lost trust in Snape, if that's what you're asking.
Snape may have actually told Voldemort (before he went after Harry) what he had heard, but also that he hadn't been able to hear the whole thing. Then when Voldemort was reborn, it was his mission to figure out what the rest of the prophecy was. I don't think he ever lost trust in Snape, if that's what you're asking.
Then that makes sense...Trelawney was giving the prophecy and Dumbledore heard it all. Snape was there but got it halfway when the guy who works there (Whats his name?) saw him and they must have been making a fuss or something so he didn't hear the rest. In that case, Snape did tell him half the prophecy...all he knew...and then I'm sure Voldemort would want the full prophecy then...I guess that might shut down all those who think Snape heard the whole thing but told Voldemort part of it because he loved Lilly.
I also think that solidifies other things in that other thread "Snape Heard it All?"
Maybe this can help. Its very similar to what I've already posted so don't think I stole it! Its primarily about Grindelwald theories...but just take a look...
http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/theund...ake/tul24.shtml
............and theres another problem....Snape had to have heard it all because when Trelawney came out of her trance-like state, Snape was there behind the door....he couldn't have been there for half or else Trelawney would have only given half, then somehow resumed later...I guess it sort of doesn't solidify it...yet
I also think that solidifies other things in that other thread "Snape Heard it All?"
Maybe this can help. Its very similar to what I've already posted so don't think I stole it! Its primarily about Grindelwald theories...but just take a look...
http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/theund...ake/tul24.shtml
............and theres another problem....Snape had to have heard it all because when Trelawney came out of her trance-like state, Snape was there behind the door....he couldn't have been there for half or else Trelawney would have only given half, then somehow resumed later...I guess it sort of doesn't solidify it...yet
Good point, so he must have either heard it all, or he got thrown from the building by Aberforth (that's the barman who threw him and he is also Dumbledore's brother) and he arrived back to the door as the prophecy ended.
I knew it was Aberforth, but I wasn't sure if Dumbledore actually said his name or Harry would know it was his brother instead of the inn keeper or whatever....
But if its like you said where he was thrown out and got back to the door, he would have had to come back in undetected...get back to the door and hope the Dumbledore wouldn't realize he was there and that somehow Trelawney had slowed down...
What does this lead to? There must be something going on...
But if its like you said where he was thrown out and got back to the door, he would have had to come back in undetected...get back to the door and hope the Dumbledore wouldn't realize he was there and that somehow Trelawney had slowed down...
What does this lead to? There must be something going on...
Just a short note to say that I'm merging this topic with 'Snape Heard it All?' as the two topics sort of overlap and it would be a shame to lose any posts.
I'm a bit pushed for time at the moment to be able to stick my two penneth worth in, but I have an ongoing interest in this thread as well as the previous one, crsdba, so I'll drop back a little later.
Some very interesting ideas you have here
I'm a bit pushed for time at the moment to be able to stick my two penneth worth in, but I have an ongoing interest in this thread as well as the previous one, crsdba, so I'll drop back a little later.
Some very interesting ideas you have here
Thanks Michelle Dessler!
After Snape was thrown from the building (and I think we can say that he heard the whole prophecy), something happened before the time he went to tell Voldemort. Wouldn't Dumbledore had stopped him if he knew he was a death eater and had suddenly had extremely valuable information for his master that would bring an eventual end to his reign of terror?
He was a death eater when he was thrown, but since he told only part of the prophecy he wasn't a death eater when he returned to Voldemort (or was acting like a double agent starting then...then I guess he was still a death eater and always has been...) Or maybe he had his own motives in mind in telling part of the prophecy.
Maybe in telling only part of it he seeled his own fait in turning to the Order. He knew that he probably messed up in telling only part...or any at all...Maybe it wasn't that he loved Lily or hated James...it might have been more like this: he told part of the prophecy thinking that Voldemort would hunt down whoever, not thinking about who it was, but didn't tell the second half for a reason possibly to assist Dumbledore. (Would Dumbledore had forced him to take an Unbreakable Vow so that he would ONLY and HAVE to tell the first part?). Knowing that it could go either way, Snape took his better judgement and sided with Dumbledore before Voldemort took on the Potters. But then what made him side with Dumbledore if the person to bring down Voldemort was a mere baby? He must have had heard the whole thing...
After Snape was thrown from the building (and I think we can say that he heard the whole prophecy), something happened before the time he went to tell Voldemort. Wouldn't Dumbledore had stopped him if he knew he was a death eater and had suddenly had extremely valuable information for his master that would bring an eventual end to his reign of terror?
He was a death eater when he was thrown, but since he told only part of the prophecy he wasn't a death eater when he returned to Voldemort (or was acting like a double agent starting then...then I guess he was still a death eater and always has been...) Or maybe he had his own motives in mind in telling part of the prophecy.
Maybe in telling only part of it he seeled his own fait in turning to the Order. He knew that he probably messed up in telling only part...or any at all...Maybe it wasn't that he loved Lily or hated James...it might have been more like this: he told part of the prophecy thinking that Voldemort would hunt down whoever, not thinking about who it was, but didn't tell the second half for a reason possibly to assist Dumbledore. (Would Dumbledore had forced him to take an Unbreakable Vow so that he would ONLY and HAVE to tell the first part?). Knowing that it could go either way, Snape took his better judgement and sided with Dumbledore before Voldemort took on the Potters. But then what made him side with Dumbledore if the person to bring down Voldemort was a mere baby? He must have had heard the whole thing...
I've said something similar to this in a different thread but you guys have got my wheels-a-turnin a bit more so i think i'll add on a little I think this scene is crucial in the "is snape really evil" battle on which i was on the snape is evil side and have now been 90% convinced that he isn't mostly because of this encounter in the hogs head.
I really believe that Snape heard the whole prophecy to me it doesn't make sense any other way. . . how would Trelawney have seen him otherwise as other people have pointed out she sort of "blacks out" when giving prophecies so for her to have seen snape he had to have been there the whole time. The prophecy couldn't have taken that long to telleven if he got caught its probable he could have caught the tail end or maybe he got caught at the end. All trewlany says is that Snape barged in and Dumdledore says he only heard half the prophecy but Dumbledore is very selective with whom he tells what and if Snape did hear the whole prophecy DD couldn't tell Harry anyway because the chance of blowing Snapes cover would be too great. . . the less people that know exactly what happened that nigh (if Snape is good) the better.
Heres what i think happened: Snape heard the whole thing, Abeforth caught him and they came into the room as Trelawney finished her prophecy, then either abeforth held snape on DD's orders or he wrapped up Trelawneys interview right quick to deal with the Snape situation. I don't have my book so i can't remember if DD left right after the prophecy. I think Sape has all the perfect characteristics for being someone who was led to evil but could easily be redeemed (harsh childhood, being made fun of, vulnerability, strong show of emotions) we could compare him to Draco almost. I think DD sat down with Snape and explained his options (like with Draco) DD was obviously not going to kill him but he knew Voldemort couldn't find out all this information so they made a deal (i also like the unbreakable vow idea but that doesn't necessarily lead to the snape is not evil kick i'm on right now) and DD made Snape listen to reason he knew Snape was more of a lost soul then a truly evil person. When DD explained what could happen if LV found out about the prophecy Snape realized that he might be sentencing James Potter to death and since he owes him a life debt that may have come into play as well. So DD realized that Snape had to go back wth something and told LV only half the prophecy hoping LV wouldn't react until he knew the whole thing. When DD found out that Snape kept his word he knew that he could count on him and then when the potters died and snape came back so remourseful and turned completely to the good side DD knew he could trust him.
I'm sure it didn't play out exactly like this but you get the picture. I think this whole turn of events is the main reason DD trusts Snape. I really hope we get to hear the "real" story of what happened at the hoshead in book 7 not the crazy Trelawney version or the narrow-minded rage filled Harry version or the diplomatic DD version maybe Abeforth can tell us the truth. I have a feeling he is going to be HUGE in book 7 he could fill in so many holes. Ok phew i'm not even gonna read over this cause i know it sounds borderline psycotic and then i won't have the nerve to post it. Ok night all!!!
I think this scene is crucial in the "is snape really evil" battle on which i was on the snape is evil side and have now been 90% convinced that he isn't mostly because of this encounter in the hogs head. I really believe that Snape heard the whole prophecy to me it doesn't make sense any other way. . . how would Trelawney have seen him otherwise as other people have pointed out she sort of "blacks out" when giving prophecies so for her to have seen snape he had to have been there the whole time. The prophecy couldn't have taken that long to telleven if he got caught its probable he could have caught the tail end or maybe he got caught at the end. All trewlany says is that Snape barged in and Dumdledore says he only heard half the prophecy but Dumbledore is very selective with whom he tells what and if Snape did hear the whole prophecy DD couldn't tell Harry anyway because the chance of blowing Snapes cover would be too great. . . the less people that know exactly what happened that nigh (if Snape is good) the better.
Heres what i think happened: Snape heard the whole thing, Abeforth caught him and they came into the room as Trelawney finished her prophecy, then either abeforth held snape on DD's orders or he wrapped up Trelawneys interview right quick to deal with the Snape situation. I don't have my book so i can't remember if DD left right after the prophecy. I think Sape has all the perfect characteristics for being someone who was led to evil but could easily be redeemed (harsh childhood, being made fun of, vulnerability, strong show of emotions) we could compare him to Draco almost. I think DD sat down with Snape and explained his options (like with Draco) DD was obviously not going to kill him but he knew Voldemort couldn't find out all this information so they made a deal (i also like the unbreakable vow idea but that doesn't necessarily lead to the snape is not evil kick i'm on right now) and DD made Snape listen to reason he knew Snape was more of a lost soul then a truly evil person. When DD explained what could happen if LV found out about the prophecy Snape realized that he might be sentencing James Potter to death and since he owes him a life debt that may have come into play as well. So DD realized that Snape had to go back wth something and told LV only half the prophecy hoping LV wouldn't react until he knew the whole thing. When DD found out that Snape kept his word he knew that he could count on him and then when the potters died and snape came back so remourseful and turned completely to the good side DD knew he could trust him.
I'm sure it didn't play out exactly like this but you get the picture. I think this whole turn of events is the main reason DD trusts Snape. I really hope we get to hear the "real" story of what happened at the hoshead in book 7 not the crazy Trelawney version or the narrow-minded rage filled Harry version or the diplomatic DD version maybe Abeforth can tell us the truth. I have a feeling he is going to be HUGE in book 7 he could fill in so many holes. Ok phew i'm not even gonna read over this cause i know it sounds borderline psycotic and then i won't have the nerve to post it. Ok night all!!!
That makes sense. Even if he heard the end, Dumbledore would've had to tell him the first half and then explain to him what happened, like you said Vandwnbytheriver. Is Hogsmeade an anti-voldemort area? If so, why was Snape there to begin with? How would he know to spy on Trelawney and Dumbledore?
It may have been his task set by Voldemort to trail Dumbledore. Not much different than the task Dumbledore gave Snape to spy on Voldemort is it?
This is a really interesting topic.
OOO OOO OOO (that is an excited noise) I just thought of something!
We all know that Trelawney has been kept at Hogwart's (protected) by Dumbledore so that Voldemort doesn't extract the full prophecy from her. Could she also be guarded because she is the only other person who knows that Snape heard the whole thing?
This is a really interesting topic.
OOO OOO OOO (that is an excited noise) I just thought of something!
We all know that Trelawney has been kept at Hogwart's (protected) by Dumbledore so that Voldemort doesn't extract the full prophecy from her. Could she also be guarded because she is the only other person who knows that Snape heard the whole thing?
You know, I didn't buy any of this at first but thinking about it logically, it must be correct. I find it more implausible that Sybill flitted in-and-out-and-in-again to seer mode than Dumbledore catching Snape and forcing him into compliance.
Could this in fact, be the reason that Dumbledore trusts Snape so? If it were true that Snape and Dumbledore used the half-prophecy to set a trap for Voldemort, then Severus did it at great personal risk, with little potential reward. This act of selflessness would buy Dumbledore's trust I believe.
Could this in fact, be the reason that Dumbledore trusts Snape so? If it were true that Snape and Dumbledore used the half-prophecy to set a trap for Voldemort, then Severus did it at great personal risk, with little potential reward. This act of selflessness would buy Dumbledore's trust I believe.
Wouldn't the reward be protection under Dumbledore? A "secure job" at the school doing something he is good at...even though he didn't do DADA until Harry's 6th year? I guess that isn't necessarily a great reward, but Dumbledore would have probably told him after he found him that Voldemort didn't care for anyone and stuff like that in order to persuade him to join him. Maybe?
Oooh!!! *group hugs everyone in here*
You know, I've never given this avenue much thought before now, but you're pushing me even more firmly into the Snape is Innocent camp now - and I didn't think that was possible
I have to agree that it sounds very unlikely that Trelawney flits in and out - that's not the way these things seem to work in the Potterverse. It's far more likely that Snape really did hear the whole prophecy and that being the reason why Dumbledore trusts him so much is certainly something that I can live with far better than his heart-broken wailings that he loved Lily. I'm not discounting that at all - I think it is possible - but the point is that this reason would be far stronger, far less abstract, something far more tangible and something that I can get my head around, so to speak.
I don't think it would have been of little advantage to Snape to jeopardise his own life so though - he had quite a lot to gain, if you think about it. A ticket out of Azkaban, a place to live, a job, security...isn't that all any of us want? It doesn't excuse any of his behviour and I would even go so far as to say that part of his probably would resent Dumbledore having this kind of "hold" over him, but he allows it to continue not only because of the security he has, but also because I believe, deep down, that he knows that it's the right thing to do.
BTW, I absolutely loved vandwnbytheriver's scenario there. It really makes sense and is very tangible and credible - something that, again, is a little more believable, given what we know of Snape's character, than his being remorseful over Lily's death (though I'm sure he was, at least partially)
Excellent topic
It's wonderful to have a completely fresh insight!
You know, I've never given this avenue much thought before now, but you're pushing me even more firmly into the Snape is Innocent camp now - and I didn't think that was possible
I have to agree that it sounds very unlikely that Trelawney flits in and out - that's not the way these things seem to work in the Potterverse. It's far more likely that Snape really did hear the whole prophecy and that being the reason why Dumbledore trusts him so much is certainly something that I can live with far better than his heart-broken wailings that he loved Lily. I'm not discounting that at all - I think it is possible - but the point is that this reason would be far stronger, far less abstract, something far more tangible and something that I can get my head around, so to speak.
I don't think it would have been of little advantage to Snape to jeopardise his own life so though - he had quite a lot to gain, if you think about it. A ticket out of Azkaban, a place to live, a job, security...isn't that all any of us want? It doesn't excuse any of his behviour and I would even go so far as to say that part of his probably would resent Dumbledore having this kind of "hold" over him, but he allows it to continue not only because of the security he has, but also because I believe, deep down, that he knows that it's the right thing to do.
BTW, I absolutely loved vandwnbytheriver's scenario there. It really makes sense and is very tangible and credible - something that, again, is a little more believable, given what we know of Snape's character, than his being remorseful over Lily's death (though I'm sure he was, at least partially)
Excellent topic
It's wonderful to have a completely fresh insight!
Thanks all!!! I was feeling a little crazy when i wrote that so its nice to know that maybe i'm not Ok some little added things:
crsdba : I meant that even if Snape got caught halfway through its plausible he still heard the whole thing not that he only heard the end of the prophecy . . . sorry after re-reading what i wrote it does sound like what you thought was what i meant if that makes sense.
Darth_Oz yay!!! You agree with me at least partially and after perusing these boards for months now i find that you are one of the most logical thinkers on this board. I would really like to hear more about what you think because you seem to be able to come to conclusions very methodically. I also agree with you that
Ok some little added things:crsdba : I meant that even if Snape got caught halfway through its plausible he still heard the whole thing not that he only heard the end of the prophecy . . . sorry after re-reading what i wrote it does sound like what you thought was what i meant if that makes sense.
Darth_Oz yay!!! You agree with me at least partially and after perusing these boards for months now i find that you are one of the most logical thinkers on this board. I would really like to hear more about what you think because you seem to be able to come to conclusions very methodically. I also agree with you that
| QUOTE |
| If it were true that Snape and Dumbledore used the half-prophecy to set a trap for Voldemort, then Severus did it at great personal risk, with little potential reward. This act of selflessness would buy Dumbledore's trust I believe. |
But i also think that Snape truly was remorseful of the Potters deaths as well and this solidfied DD's trust in him. Snape is a very complicated character as we all know and i think he can really be compared very well to Draco. He was brought up in an unloving family, turned obsessivly to the dark arts and got in over his head. When Snape was younger he wasn't evil he was just an outcast and wanted power so he turned to the most powerful wizard out there that shared his interests, Voldemort. I'll have to think this out more but i don't really believe Snape had killed anyone before the Potters died though i could be very wrong and i think the life debt he owed to james could be a key thing here as well. Like you though i also believe this scene is the key reason why DD trusts Snape so much and that we don't know the half of it.
SeventhHorcrux Thats a good point but i don't think she "actually" knows that Snape heard her give a prophecy because she didn't know she had given one at all. But if she were to fall into the wrong hands then they could figure out that she gave the prophecy and that Snape was there the whole time so yes i think DD is keeping her under lock and key persay for her own safety as well (and this is new) as for Snapes. I like that. I wonder if any of her card babble has to do with Snape. Someone really smart should try and figure out the meanings to all the weird stuff trelawny was spouting throughout HBP.
And thank you Michelle Dessler its nice to know i'm not crazy! Also i agree that Snape had alot to gain from turning to the good side. Alll the things you and others pointed out seem like he was handed a semi-sweet deal besides the double agent part.
Ok so i think the hogs head scene is why DD trusts Snape but i wonder what could have happened to make him turn double agent thats way risky there had to be something else in the deal for him to go that far. Or maybe he was just trying to not get killed by VL. Don't know maybe thats for another thread. Well any way i'm long winded (sorry) and thanks everyone this has turned into a really interesting disscussion with some awesome ideas!!!
Yes, I agree with that scenario too. But watch its something completely different...
So would the sequence of events go like this?
-Trelawney and Dumbledore sit down in their room to discuss a job at Hogwarts.
-at some point, Dumbledore starts to think it was a bad idea to do the interview.
-Maybe around this time, Snape arrives at the door and starts listening (although it could have been anytime since they were in the room)
-Trelawney gives the prophecy
-Aberforth brings Snape into the room, Dumbledore tells Trelawney to leave and he'll think about giving her the position (which he does to protect her and the prophecy)
-Snape and Dumbledore discuss what will happen as vandwnbytheriver tells us (which makes sense). Snape agrees.
-Snape goes to Voldemort and tells the first part of the prophecy (whether he indeed did hear the whole thing, or just the last part. Dumbledore probably told him the rest. Which means Dumbledore lied to Harry a couple of times concerning the prophecy)
-Voldemort reduces all possible candidates to Neville and Harry (at least this is what Dumbledore thinks). He chooses the Potters to attack as they are more of a risk, and the rest is history.
Some more questions...why was Snape at the Hogshead Inn? Did Voldemort order him there or was he acting on his own? Out of all the babies, how are Harry and Neville the only two choices...what if it was someone like Hermione with two muggle parents?
So would the sequence of events go like this?
-Trelawney and Dumbledore sit down in their room to discuss a job at Hogwarts.
-at some point, Dumbledore starts to think it was a bad idea to do the interview.
-Maybe around this time, Snape arrives at the door and starts listening (although it could have been anytime since they were in the room)
-Trelawney gives the prophecy
-Aberforth brings Snape into the room, Dumbledore tells Trelawney to leave and he'll think about giving her the position (which he does to protect her and the prophecy)
-Snape and Dumbledore discuss what will happen as vandwnbytheriver tells us (which makes sense). Snape agrees.
-Snape goes to Voldemort and tells the first part of the prophecy (whether he indeed did hear the whole thing, or just the last part. Dumbledore probably told him the rest. Which means Dumbledore lied to Harry a couple of times concerning the prophecy)
-Voldemort reduces all possible candidates to Neville and Harry (at least this is what Dumbledore thinks). He chooses the Potters to attack as they are more of a risk, and the rest is history.
Some more questions...why was Snape at the Hogshead Inn? Did Voldemort order him there or was he acting on his own? Out of all the babies, how are Harry and Neville the only two choices...what if it was someone like Hermione with two muggle parents?
vandwnbytheriver - yes, I think you've got the essence of Snape in a nutshell there. I agree that Snape just got in over his head in his thirst for the power to be better than James. I think a lot of kids who've gone down the criminal path could relate to that, but obviously, not all of them are going to be serial killers. Same with Snape - he walked a dark path, but that doesn't make him a Barty Crouch, you know?
| QUOTE |
| Or maybe he was just trying to not get killed by VL |
Oh, undoutedly. We know enough about Snape to know that he is not, by nature, a very altruistic person and I think it's safe to say that there would have been an element of narcissism at work there.
crsbda - nice summary...I think that's basically the scenario we all have and that certainly works for me, particularly Aberforth's involvement. I'm sure that he will play a vital role in the next book and this is one of the most convincing theories I've heard.
| QUOTE |
| Some more questions...why was Snape at the Hogshead Inn? Did Voldemort order him there or was he acting on his own? Out of all the babies, how are Harry and Neville the only two choices...what if it was someone like Hermione with two muggle parents? |
*sigh* I wish I knew. The most logical thing would be to assume that either he was sent there on Voldemort's orders to spy on Dumbledore or perhaps he was there to overhear an interview to give him some advantage if he was later going to apply for the DADA job. We know that Voldemort wanted it, and I'm pretty sure I remember reading that Snape said he took the Potions job because Voldemort wanted him to, so I think it's probably safe to say that it was one of these reasons that led him to be there.
I do think he was acting on his own, yeah. I don't think Snape is particularly popular with anyone, even the Death Eaters. The only one he seems to get on with is Lucius and that's only probably because it's a mutually beneficial relationship.
I suppose the 'born to those who have thrice defied him' would have narrowed it down, especially when added to the 'born as the seventh month dies' or whatever it was (I'm paraphrasing) - resulting in it coming down to Neville or Harry. Why he eventually chose the Potters I don't know. There must have been a reason and I'm pretty sure it didn't involve 'eeny, meeny, miney, mo' - I suppose it's logical to presume that it had something to do with whatever Snape told him.
But why would Dumbledore have allowed Snape to feed any information, full or otherwise, to Voldemort, knowing that it would lead Voldemort into attacking a family? Did he hope to prevent it? Did he mean to draw Voldemort out into a confrontation at the Potters? Was he the other person at Godric's Hollow that night? If so, what went wrong?
Ah, so many questions!! Not enough answers!!!
I think he allowed Voldemort to attack a family, the Potters, so the prophecy could be fullfilled...hopefully Harry conquering Voldemort as planned! If it didn't happen, then there wouldn't be anyone who could defeat Voldemort. Or I guess eventually someone else would have been born that matches the same criteria!
And I wasn't thinking the prophecy even though we've been talking about it, so thats why I asked how he narrowed it down...I should have kept that in mind...DO'H!!!
What if it is like you said MD(if I can call you that) or Michelle...Snape was there to infiltrate or just get the DADA job. But he wouldn't give the job to a death eater! And if Voldemort supposedly cursed the job I don't think Voldemort would want one of his death eaters in a bad position like that. So maybe its more like the potions job, which he got, but still...Dumbledore wouldn't give it to a death eater. There must be some other reason....just can't think right now...so its still on the fence if he was on Voldemort's orders or there on his own will...unless he was anticipating joining Dumbledore anyway because he found out something about Voldemort (not a horcrux!) or already had a thought about joining Dumbledore. Maybe he was already there to act as a double agent?
And I wasn't thinking the prophecy even though we've been talking about it, so thats why I asked how he narrowed it down...I should have kept that in mind...DO'H!!!
What if it is like you said MD(if I can call you that) or Michelle...Snape was there to infiltrate or just get the DADA job. But he wouldn't give the job to a death eater! And if Voldemort supposedly cursed the job I don't think Voldemort would want one of his death eaters in a bad position like that. So maybe its more like the potions job, which he got, but still...Dumbledore wouldn't give it to a death eater. There must be some other reason....just can't think right now...so its still on the fence if he was on Voldemort's orders or there on his own will...unless he was anticipating joining Dumbledore anyway because he found out something about Voldemort (not a horcrux!) or already had a thought about joining Dumbledore. Maybe he was already there to act as a double agent?
| QUOTE |
| But why would Dumbledore have allowed Snape to feed any information, full or otherwise, to Voldemort, knowing that it would lead Voldemort into attacking a family? Did he hope to prevent it? Did he mean to draw Voldemort out into a confrontation at the Potters? Was he the other person at Godric's Hollow that night? If so, what went wrong? |
Ok this is taking alot on the genius of DD but i think he knew that Voldemort was going to attack the Potters after Snape gave VL the information. I can't remeber where but DD said that VL "marked" Harry because he related to him and hated him because just like VL he was born into a half blood family so thats someone he would consider dangerous i'm paraphrasing here. So he sent the Potters into hiding. We all know that when VL attacked the Potters they were in hiding but i don't believe we know when or why the Potters went into hiding at least not the specifics. So we'll say:
Snape heard the prophecy DD convinced him to tell VL only half (maybe as a trap? I like the idea of DD being the other person there at Godrics hollow. Nice one!)
DD deduced that from the information being fed to VL he would attack Harry and sent thePotters into hiding and offered to be their secret keeper to keep them safe. Then Sirius is the secret kepper so everyone thinks they should be safe until Wormtail secretly becomes secret keeper and turns on them all.
No one was prepared for wormtail to turn so thats why a family got attacked.
In my mind DD thought he was protecting whomever he could with the circumstances that came into play. I don't think he thought he was putting anyone in mortal danger but everyone was in danger at that time and the Potters were warriors and they probably agreed with him.
Hope that makes sense. What i'm saying is maybe DD sent the Potters into hiding because of the prophecy. I don't know it just sorta came to me but it seems logical enough.
i was thinking maybe that Snape did hear all of the prophecy, and Dumbledore told Snape to tell only half of the prophecy, and I think Dumbledore knew that Voldemort was going to go for the Potters, but the real reason he told Snape to tell only half is because it would protect Nelville from any harm and he would maybe be the key to destroying Voldemort...
i hope you guys understand what im saying so i dont look like an idiot
i hope you guys understand what im saying so i dont look like an idiot
I see what you mean. But he would be protecting one child while harming another which doesn't make sense for something Dumbledore to do. Voldemort also didn't make Neville as his equal...and if someone says that he tortured his parents, that was death eaters, not Voldemort.
Mmm....yeah...I just can't see Dumbledore making that sort of gamble. I mean, I'm not totally arguing against the idea - Bandoth made some wonderful arguments that really got me thinking about Dumbledore's motivations in the 'Changeling Hypothesis' thread. He basically suggested, through interpretation of the wonderful CH theory (that every HP fan should consider it their duty to read at least once ) that Dumbledore has always known, all along, exactly what was going to happen. I don't think he always knew the precise method by which events would come about, but I think it's possible he always knew what the outcome would be - i.e. that Harry would have to stand against Voldemort alone, that the Potters would die, that Sirius would die, that he himself would have to die. By that logic, he would have known that the Potters were going to die, but he tried to do everything in his power to prevent it, to manipulate the chain of events, but ultimately, he failed.
It's still such a risk to put people in danger by getting Snape to play Voldemort like that, but if he knew that the Potters were going to die, then I suppose that it's possible he saw it as a necessary risk for a greater good. And I think you're right, vandwnbytheriver, that the Potters were probably aware of the risk too and chose to take it in order to protect their son. I think any parent would be more than willing to put their own lives at risk to protect the lives of their children. I'm just intrigued by this 'thrice defied him' business...defied him over what, exactly? The horcruxes, maybe?
Final - no, you don't look like an idiot! I see what you're saying and Neville certainly has a lot of support out there as possibly being the 'other' referred to in the third person interpretation of the prophecy, but I can't see it personally and I agree with crsdba that Dumbledore may take risks with adults who know what they're doing, but he wouldn't do that with a child.
Still, I'm not sure that we fully know the situation regarding the torture of Neville's parents either. I think we know that it had something to do with Bella wanting to know if they knew the whereabouts of Voldemort in the days following his "death", and I've always been curious about why she went to them, but now it kind of makes sense. If Voldemort only knew half the prophecy, then this action shows that he must have at least considered Neville as a possibility very seriously. What ultimately pushed him towards the Potters? Maybe it was the half blood thing, yes. But perhaps he received encouragement and support in that from a certain Severus Snape too? If Snape was acting under Dumbledore's orders, that would make sense. Dumbledore would draw Voldermort into what he hoped would be a final confrontation at Godric's Hollow, but something went wrong - Wormtail spilling his guts, probably. Perhaps Voldemort caught them unawares, earlier than Dumbledore had planned, hence what happened.
Oh, and BTW, you can call me anything you like, so long as it's polite!! MD, Michelle, or Louise...whatever you'd prefer, crsdba
) that Dumbledore has always known, all along, exactly what was going to happen. I don't think he always knew the precise method by which events would come about, but I think it's possible he always knew what the outcome would be - i.e. that Harry would have to stand against Voldemort alone, that the Potters would die, that Sirius would die, that he himself would have to die. By that logic, he would have known that the Potters were going to die, but he tried to do everything in his power to prevent it, to manipulate the chain of events, but ultimately, he failed.It's still such a risk to put people in danger by getting Snape to play Voldemort like that, but if he knew that the Potters were going to die, then I suppose that it's possible he saw it as a necessary risk for a greater good. And I think you're right, vandwnbytheriver, that the Potters were probably aware of the risk too and chose to take it in order to protect their son. I think any parent would be more than willing to put their own lives at risk to protect the lives of their children. I'm just intrigued by this 'thrice defied him' business...defied him over what, exactly? The horcruxes, maybe?
Final - no, you don't look like an idiot!
I see what you're saying and Neville certainly has a lot of support out there as possibly being the 'other' referred to in the third person interpretation of the prophecy, but I can't see it personally and I agree with crsdba that Dumbledore may take risks with adults who know what they're doing, but he wouldn't do that with a child. Still, I'm not sure that we fully know the situation regarding the torture of Neville's parents either. I think we know that it had something to do with Bella wanting to know if they knew the whereabouts of Voldemort in the days following his "death", and I've always been curious about why she went to them, but now it kind of makes sense. If Voldemort only knew half the prophecy, then this action shows that he must have at least considered Neville as a possibility very seriously. What ultimately pushed him towards the Potters? Maybe it was the half blood thing, yes. But perhaps he received encouragement and support in that from a certain Severus Snape too? If Snape was acting under Dumbledore's orders, that would make sense. Dumbledore would draw Voldermort into what he hoped would be a final confrontation at Godric's Hollow, but something went wrong - Wormtail spilling his guts, probably. Perhaps Voldemort caught them unawares, earlier than Dumbledore had planned, hence what happened.
Oh, and BTW, you can call me anything you like, so long as it's polite!!
MD, Michelle, or Louise...whatever you'd prefer, crsdba
| QUOTE (crsdba @ Jan 10 2006, 02:09 PM) |
| I think he allowed Voldemort to attack a family, the Potters, so the prophecy could be fullfilled...hopefully Harry conquering Voldemort as planned! If it didn't happen, then there wouldn't be anyone who could defeat Voldemort. |
hmmm although i'm not saying that could never happen i just don't see based upon DD's actions in later books as to why he would want the prophecy "fullfilled" He constantly tells Harry not to take stock in the porphecy, that the prophecy is only real if he believes it is. Harry will fight Voldemort because he killed his parents, cedric, is part of the reason Sirius is dead, is evil etc. Its like how Harry said its the difference between being dragged into an arena or walking in with your head high (or something like that) The prophecy may have jump started this whole thing but DD is very specific that Harry is not to get hung op or put faith in the prophecy. I think DD was trying to prevent this whole mess from happening and it blew up in his face so to speak because of wormtail, as DD says all men make mistakes but his tend to be much more catostrophic. (sorry i'm paraphrase girl)
WHOA random brain wave. What if the potion DD had to drink was making him relive his biggest regret the memory that he caused the potters death by giving VL info and then sending them into hiding, Ok i looked it up and it doesn't fit as well as i thought but there are some parts
American version pg 572
"it's all my fault,, all my fault," he sobbed. "please make it stop. I know i did wrong, oh please make it stop and i'll never, never again."
What if the catosrophic mistake he says happen to men like him was his plan that night in the hogshead and hes froever regreted it because it made Harry an orphan and two of his friends died and he feels responsible. He goes on to say things like "i want to die" and the like.
Maybe when he offhandly (and we know jo loves to throw those little things in) mentions that his mistakes tend to be larger he was referring to Harry's parents and his plan he had set up and not as a set up to Snape turning on him (which by the way i never thought it could happen but i think i actually believe Snape is on the good side or at least followinf DD's orders.) Don't know i'll have to think on that one more but i like it.
I was thinking that Dumbledore would want the prophecy fullfilled because it says "the one with the power to vanquish the dark lord approaches"...so I guess that would mean that one person can finally vanquish the dark lord...
But you're right, he wouldn't do that. He wouldn't allow them to just lay down and die. He put them in hiding, but Lily and James might have known that eventually Voldemort would get them so they formed that love spell (or whatever it was!). Now, how were they to know that Sirius would make Wormtail secret keeper...then have Wormtail tell Voldemort?
Maybe Dumbledore thought that when Harry grew up is when the time Voldemort would mark him as his equal...I dunno. Then that would make sense where Wormtail spilled his guts and told Voldemort. Was that Dumbledore's plan? To wait till Harry got older? If thats the case, then there would be many more years of terror, and death...and the Potters would be in hiding for that long too, and along with Sirius.
*****Some believe that the prophecy talks about three people. Particularly this part: "AND EITHER MUST DIE AT THE HAND OF THE OTHER FOR NEITHER CAN LIVE WHILE THE OTHER SURVIVES"...does this refer to Snape? However, this can be interpreted the same way: "I have two apples and I will eat that one". Where I could mean I'd eat one of those apples or another one that is somewhere else...just like the prophecy is saying ....either...other....Of course, this would mean someone other than Voldemort would kill Harry, or someone other than Harry would kill Voldemort (or defeat/vanquish), or even both are killed by that one person. But when you say "either" you mean one or the other...so both being killed by the same person is unlikely...but hey, I'm just rambling...
But you're right, he wouldn't do that. He wouldn't allow them to just lay down and die. He put them in hiding, but Lily and James might have known that eventually Voldemort would get them so they formed that love spell (or whatever it was!). Now, how were they to know that Sirius would make Wormtail secret keeper...then have Wormtail tell Voldemort?
Maybe Dumbledore thought that when Harry grew up is when the time Voldemort would mark him as his equal...I dunno. Then that would make sense where Wormtail spilled his guts and told Voldemort. Was that Dumbledore's plan? To wait till Harry got older? If thats the case, then there would be many more years of terror, and death...and the Potters would be in hiding for that long too, and along with Sirius.
*****Some believe that the prophecy talks about three people. Particularly this part: "AND EITHER MUST DIE AT THE HAND OF THE OTHER FOR NEITHER CAN LIVE WHILE THE OTHER SURVIVES"...does this refer to Snape? However, this can be interpreted the same way: "I have two apples and I will eat that one". Where I could mean I'd eat one of those apples or another one that is somewhere else...just like the prophecy is saying ....either...other....Of course, this would mean someone other than Voldemort would kill Harry, or someone other than Harry would kill Voldemort (or defeat/vanquish), or even both are killed by that one person. But when you say "either" you mean one or the other...so both being killed by the same person is unlikely...but hey, I'm just rambling...
i was also thinking that the potion dumbleore drunk made him remember something very painful to him...
but i never came up with someting plausible..
The thing being his mistake at godrik's hollow is a nice one...
i have to reflect a little more on it...maybe i'll com eun with something new
nice one though!
but i never came up with someting plausible..
The thing being his mistake at godrik's hollow is a nice one...
i have to reflect a little more on it...maybe i'll com eun with something new
nice one though!
You know what vandwnbytheriver...that really does make sense now that I think about it. However, there is only one problem I can think of now...how would him reliving that stop him from taking the horcrux and why would Harry need to force feed him...I guess thats for another thread though.
How did everyone come to the conclusion that someone else was there at Godric's Hollow? I think we all have written something about it in the past, but I don't remember where it originated from. However, if it were Dumbledore and he didn't want Harry to face Voldemort yet (because it would lead to his parents death), then wouldn't he try to stop Voldemort? Hmm...when I think about it, I think he'd rather have two people die now than potentially thousands of others later. Jeez...I'm losing it.
How did everyone come to the conclusion that someone else was there at Godric's Hollow? I think we all have written something about it in the past, but I don't remember where it originated from. However, if it were Dumbledore and he didn't want Harry to face Voldemort yet (because it would lead to his parents death), then wouldn't he try to stop Voldemort? Hmm...when I think about it, I think he'd rather have two people die now than potentially thousands of others later. Jeez...I'm losing it.
D'oh...sorry for the double post, but I think this topic might need to be addressed again. If you don't feel like going back and reading everything, thats ok...because we can start anew...and if you did, my future posts may or may not be contradictory!
Basically, Snape heard the whole prophecy and that is why Dumbledore trusts him. Why have I come to this conclusion? Trelawney said she felt wierd then when she came too, she saw Snape come through the door with Aberforth.
After telling Harry how she felt, she says "...but then we were rudely interrupted by Severus Snape!"
Now, my guess is that he either heard the whole thing, or everything but the end...which is the same thing as the beginning anyway...so when Dumbledore tells Harry that they are the only two that have heard the whole prophecy he isn't lying, but he is indeed bending the truth.
But why trust Snape to let him go? That is a main question, along with if he heard it or not...that I wish to continue in this thread...any thoughts?
Basically, Snape heard the whole prophecy and that is why Dumbledore trusts him. Why have I come to this conclusion? Trelawney said she felt wierd then when she came too, she saw Snape come through the door with Aberforth.
After telling Harry how she felt, she says "...but then we were rudely interrupted by Severus Snape!"
Now, my guess is that he either heard the whole thing, or everything but the end...which is the same thing as the beginning anyway...so when Dumbledore tells Harry that they are the only two that have heard the whole prophecy he isn't lying, but he is indeed bending the truth.
But why trust Snape to let him go? That is a main question, along with if he heard it or not...that I wish to continue in this thread...any thoughts?
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