What was the potion that Dumbledore drank in the cave? Wasit something we have already seen?
Full Version: What Was The Potion That Dumbledore Took?
What was the potion that Dumbledore drank in the cave? Wasit something we have already seen?
This may sound rather silly, but couldn't the liquid be an aging potion? We know they exist, because Fred and George used a few drops of on to try to fool the Goblet of Fire.
That would certainly explain Dumbledore's extremely weakend state after drinking the entire potion. And, I think it would also explain how R.A.B was certain that s/he had very little time left to live.
"I now I will be dead long before you read this but I want you to know that it was I who discovered your secret."
That doesn't really sound like someone expecting to have Voldemort murder them. Does it?
That would certainly explain Dumbledore's extremely weakend state after drinking the entire potion. And, I think it would also explain how R.A.B was certain that s/he had very little time left to live.
"I now I will be dead long before you read this but I want you to know that it was I who discovered your secret."
That doesn't really sound like someone expecting to have Voldemort murder them. Does it?
An aging potion is an interesting idea, but I think that it's more than that. First, I don't think an aging potion would cause the kind of despair that Dumbledore experienced after drinking it. It sounded like the potion was forcing Dumbledore to relive his worst experiences (much like the effects that a dementor has?.....) Also, I have to imagine that if the Weasley's can make an aging potion, Dumbledore would know what an aging potion looks like and would have recognized it right off the bat. You raise a good point with R.A.B. knowing he's going to die thought which makes me think that aging has something to do with it. Could it be a combination of potions?
GinnyLover
GinnyLover
I'm not sure about the aging potion....
I thought it was more of a magic-destroying potion really. I'm sure that Voldemort was afraid of Dumbledore for very good reasons - his magic must have far outweighed Voldemort's. Voldermort would have know this, and therefore would have used something that would weaken the wizard who would try to retrieve the horcrux - something that he no doubt would have been aware that Dumbledore (or possibly Harry) would try to do.
I'm sure that had Dumbledore been able to defend himself on that tower, he would have - unless there was some prearranged pact, but that's a topic for another thread.
Dumbledore has also never shown signs of being physically weak before, but the guards on the horcruxes recovered so far (i.e the "locket" and the ring) both damaged and weakened him.
Conclusion? That his magic was weak...essentially sapped. Which is what I personally believe the potion was meant to do.
I thought it was more of a magic-destroying potion really. I'm sure that Voldemort was afraid of Dumbledore for very good reasons - his magic must have far outweighed Voldemort's. Voldermort would have know this, and therefore would have used something that would weaken the wizard who would try to retrieve the horcrux - something that he no doubt would have been aware that Dumbledore (or possibly Harry) would try to do.
I'm sure that had Dumbledore been able to defend himself on that tower, he would have - unless there was some prearranged pact, but that's a topic for another thread.
Dumbledore has also never shown signs of being physically weak before, but the guards on the horcruxes recovered so far (i.e the "locket" and the ring) both damaged and weakened him.
Conclusion? That his magic was weak...essentially sapped. Which is what I personally believe the potion was meant to do.
I think the potion shows the drinker its most feared thing. Dumbledore was real scared while drinking the potion. He said some thing that made me think that he was seeing his students and Hogwarts being attacked, maybe thats his worst fear?
I said somewhere it could be liquid death, avadra kadavra(sp?).
Both the spell and the liquid were green. It sounded like he was speaking what others say before death.
Both the spell and the liquid were green. It sounded like he was speaking what others say before death.
When I was reading it I thought it might be something to do with what yound Tom did to those children in the cave, because it didn't sound like something Dumbledore would say. Maybe he was reliving their experiences? Apparantly Tom did something pretty traumatic to those kids..
I really like the idea that Dumbledore was experiencing something that the two children did in the cave so many years earlier. I hadn't thought of that, but now I really think that is a wonderful idea.
I think that the potion showed the person drinking horrible thoughts that torture the person drinking it. I also think that it takes a physical toll on the drinker too.
I think the potion was merely a slow-acting poison. Voldemort wanted whoever tried to take his Horcrux suffer before death. I don't think it is anymore complicated than that.
I really have to disagree with the idea of it being an aging potion because it would not have caused all of the pain that Dumbledore was feeling. I like the theory about the liquid AK, but again, i disagree. If it was a liwuid AK then he would have died instantly like the spell is supposed to do. To be quite honest, i believe, and this it one of the first times i thought this way, that the potion itself has no real significance and is something JKR just created to do what she needed done.
as someone mentioned above i think that it is a torture type of potion that makes one want death, which to voldemort would be torture to him, making the only means for the torture to stop being to drink from water
voldemort knowing what would happen when the water is touched, made the person who drank the potion need to drink water to stop being tortured. the inferies in the water would only recognize voldemort and leave him alone but this was a smart defense but by voldemort to force the person to touch the water and only if they are voldemort would the iferis leave alone... hope i didnt lose anyone
dumbledore even said that voldemort wouldnt want to kill the wizard who got this far just yet, so he knew that the potion woudlnt kill him
one question: What did Dumbledore mean when he said "magic leaves a trace" or somethign like that to harry, when he pulled the invisible chain?
voldemort knowing what would happen when the water is touched, made the person who drank the potion need to drink water to stop being tortured. the inferies in the water would only recognize voldemort and leave him alone but this was a smart defense but by voldemort to force the person to touch the water and only if they are voldemort would the iferis leave alone... hope i didnt lose anyone
dumbledore even said that voldemort wouldnt want to kill the wizard who got this far just yet, so he knew that the potion woudlnt kill him
one question: What did Dumbledore mean when he said "magic leaves a trace" or somethign like that to harry, when he pulled the invisible chain?
| QUOTE (Dr. Filibuster @ Jul 22 2005, 11:14 PM) |
| voldemort knowing what would happen when the water is touched, made the person who drank the potion need to drink water to stop being tortured. |
I don't agree. When Dumbledore had finished drinking the potion, he also finished being tortured. You're also forgetting that if it wasn't for Harry saying 'Renerverate!' (sp?), Dumbledore wouldn't have even awoken to ask for the water in the first place.
Whilst in the cave Dumbledore worked out what the potion was; ie: "this potion must act in a way that will prevent me taking the Horcrux. It might paralyse me, cause me to forget what I am here for, create so much pain Iam distracted....." [page532 HPHBP]
Was it as Harry imagened his purpose of coming along to the cave was to ensure that the mission obtaining the horcrux was successful?
What ever the potion was, Dumbledore made the ultimate decission to sacrife himself. As Dumbledore left us the biggest clue ie "I am older, much cleverer, and less valuable". [page 533 HPHB]
So no matter what the potion was that Dumbledore took, he knew the effects that Voldemort would use and made Harry promise to see it through.
Was it as Harry imagened his purpose of coming along to the cave was to ensure that the mission obtaining the horcrux was successful?
What ever the potion was, Dumbledore made the ultimate decission to sacrife himself. As Dumbledore left us the biggest clue ie "I am older, much cleverer, and less valuable". [page 533 HPHB]
So no matter what the potion was that Dumbledore took, he knew the effects that Voldemort would use and made Harry promise to see it through.
I think the liquid that DD drank was NOT the original liquid left by Voldemort.
Remember, R.A.B. (Regulus A. Black) was there first. He drank the original liquid, took the real horcrux, and left the fake with the note in it as well as the liquid that DD drank.
That being said, assuming he was good (because he took the horcrux to destroy it) he might not have wanted to hurt the next person who might try to get it for the same purpose. This may explain the temporary nature of the symptoms that DD showed.
Remember, R.A.B. (Regulus A. Black) was there first. He drank the original liquid, took the real horcrux, and left the fake with the note in it as well as the liquid that DD drank.
That being said, assuming he was good (because he took the horcrux to destroy it) he might not have wanted to hurt the next person who might try to get it for the same purpose. This may explain the temporary nature of the symptoms that DD showed.
| QUOTE (FireFawkes @ Jul 22 2005, 07:58 PM) |
| I really have to disagree with the idea of it being an aging potion because it would not have caused all of the pain that Dumbledore was feeling. |
Have you ever had to watch someone die SLOWLY from old age? Altzhiemer's (sp?), arthritis, rheumatism, failing organs..you get the drift...
Now, take all of that suffering that is usually spread out over 5 or more years. To say the least, it's physically crippling. And the psychological damage that something like that would cause makes me shudder just to think about it.
I'm guising that it was suposed to work right away. I might be mistaken but didnt it say some where that Dumbuldore was struggleing against the potion? And sort of holding it at bay?
Are we sure that this thing which Harry took from Dumbledore was really fake?
I really don't understand this thing with the potion. I mean, if R. A. B. drank it... intended to destroy the thing... maybe he thought that Voldemort or his servants will come back to take it, maybe he wanted to make them feel horrible?
I really don't understand this thing with the potion. I mean, if R. A. B. drank it... intended to destroy the thing... maybe he thought that Voldemort or his servants will come back to take it, maybe he wanted to make them feel horrible?
It could have been an aging potion, definately. The agony that Dumbledore seemed to be in didn't seem like his memories because it's said that Tom Riddle took those kids to that cave and tortured them or something. Dumbledore was probably reliving their experiences in that cave, it seemed more childish than a grown man. The liquid might have refilled itself automatically when Regulus placed the fake horcrux in the basin..."I will be dead long before you read this"
See my theory in the R.A.B. discussion...
See my theory in the R.A.B. discussion...
Remember at the end of the book on pg 608:
Dumbledore's eyes were closed;but for the strange angle of his arms and legs he might have been sleeping.
What if he was?
what if the potion was a protection. Like it made the killing curse put him to sleep instead of killing him.(The drought of living death SS)On page 643:
what harry KNEW to be dumbledores body.
it dosen't say it is his body.
also in the cave he knew exactly what he was doing. Like he didn't want to harry to hold out on his advetures.
I don't know just a theroy!!!
Dumbledore's eyes were closed;but for the strange angle of his arms and legs he might have been sleeping.
What if he was?
what if the potion was a protection. Like it made the killing curse put him to sleep instead of killing him.(The drought of living death SS)On page 643:
what harry KNEW to be dumbledores body.
it dosen't say it is his body.
also in the cave he knew exactly what he was doing. Like he didn't want to harry to hold out on his advetures.
I don't know just a theroy!!!
What kind of enchantment is in the potion in the cave? My guess is that it causes the person who drinks it to experience death, as Dumbledore appears to have hallucinations of death upon drinking it. Perhaps only a "Death Eater" can drink the potion unharmed (which is why RAB, if his is indeed Regulus Black, could have been able to drink the potion and steal the original locket)? Is this why they are called Death Eaters, because they can "eat" death? I don't think any of the books explain the origin of this curious name.
hmmm....
No, my thoughts are going to the idea with a potion that makes you survive death. Not forever of course, but maybe for an hour or something like that, maybe more.
Because if Dumbledore really survives after Snapes Avada Kedavra it must be something like that in it. Because I really don't think that you can fake the Avada Kedavra!!!!!!!
And if Snape's on their side (the dialog between Dumbledore and Snape inte the forbidden forest, the one that hagrid hears, could be some evidence. but anyway..) if he's on dumbledores side it could be he who maked the potion in the cave.
Because in book 1 he says to the class that he can " make poitons to survive death" or something (I don't remember the exactly words)
So if Dumbledore drank a potion to survive death, maybe it felt like he was dying at the moment he drank it instead of when he properly would be dying ?
It doesn't feel so wrong, except that I don't think Snape is R.A.B... but except for that. nobody knows who s/he is for sure anyway so it's worth a try ;)
No, my thoughts are going to the idea with a potion that makes you survive death. Not forever of course, but maybe for an hour or something like that, maybe more.
Because if Dumbledore really survives after Snapes Avada Kedavra it must be something like that in it. Because I really don't think that you can fake the Avada Kedavra!!!!!!!
And if Snape's on their side (the dialog between Dumbledore and Snape inte the forbidden forest, the one that hagrid hears, could be some evidence. but anyway..) if he's on dumbledores side it could be he who maked the potion in the cave.
Because in book 1 he says to the class that he can " make poitons to survive death" or something (I don't remember the exactly words)
So if Dumbledore drank a potion to survive death, maybe it felt like he was dying at the moment he drank it instead of when he properly would be dying ?
It doesn't feel so wrong, except that I don't think Snape is R.A.B... but except for that. nobody knows who s/he is for sure anyway so it's worth a try ;)
| QUOTE (Animagus Tonks @ Aug 5 2005, 02:23 PM) |
| hmmm.... No, my thoughts are going to the idea with a potion that makes you survive death. Not forever of course, but maybe for an hour or something like that, maybe more. Because if Dumbledore really survives after Snapes Avada Kedavra it must be something like that in it. Because I really don't think that you can fake the Avada Kedavra!!!!!!! And if Snape's on their side (the dialog between Dumbledore and Snape inte the forbidden forest, the one that hagrid hears, could be some evidence. but anyway..) if he's on dumbledores side it could be he who maked the potion in the cave. Because in book 1 he says to the class that he can " make poitons to survive death" or something (I don't remember the exactly words) So if Dumbledore drank a potion to survive death, maybe it felt like he was dying at the moment he drank it instead of when he properly would be dying ? It doesn't feel so wrong, except that I don't think Snape is R.A.B... but except for that. nobody knows who s/he is for sure anyway so it's worth a try  |
Because if Dumbledore really survives after Snapes Avada Kedavra it must be something like that in it. Because I really don't think that you can fake the Avada Kedavra!!!!!!!
Remember, you really have to mean it when you cast an unforgiveable curse... so maybe Snape just didn't. It could have been enough to blast Dumbledore off of the tower, but not enough to kill him.
(Fawlkes could then catch him as he fell and let him off softly on the ground, where he could play dead.) Maybe it had nothing to do with the potion.
yeah, you got a point there.
but didn't Harry see Dumbledore when he fell ? okey, maybe not.
But what if Snape really wanted to kill Dumbledore ? With the unbreakable thing with Narcissa and everything..
yeahyeah, Dumbledore trust Snape, but what if he's wrong ? He says all the time that it could be possible that he's wrong, except for this thing. He's really sure about Snape. It's strange, I really want to know what he did to get Dumbledores trust. I can't wait so much longer for the 7th book to come !! :P
okey, I must confess that I think it sounds better if he's still alive and Snape really is on the good side and can be trust, but still.. aah, well I don't know. We'll see :rolleyes:
but didn't Harry see Dumbledore when he fell ? okey, maybe not.
But what if Snape really wanted to kill Dumbledore ? With the unbreakable thing with Narcissa and everything..
yeahyeah, Dumbledore trust Snape, but what if he's wrong ? He says all the time that it could be possible that he's wrong, except for this thing. He's really sure about Snape. It's strange, I really want to know what he did to get Dumbledores trust. I can't wait so much longer for the 7th book to come !! :P
okey, I must confess that I think it sounds better if he's still alive and Snape really is on the good side and can be trust, but still.. aah, well I don't know. We'll see :rolleyes:
This is a tough question....but I'm going to have to go with the living your worst nightmare thoery, while it weakens the drinker and/or causes them pain. It sounded like Dumbledore was living his worst fear, but just living your worst nightmare isn't going to weaken somebody like Dumbledore was weakened. At the same time it would have also been causing him physical pain, therebye weakening his body. You saw how Voldemort thinks when DD had to cut himself in order to get through the challanges surrounding the horcrux.....he believes that there is nothing worse then physical pain.
I don't believe the aging potion because although it is an interesting theory, why would Dumbledore being saying the things he was if he was just getting older.....it doesn't add up. I also don't agree with the death potion theory or the thoery where he is seeing what Voldemort did to the kids *sorry* because as someone already pointed out, it would have instantly killed him so that he was't able to reach the horcrux. Plus, Voldemort needed some way to get it himself without dying. It is again a good theory though and the potion may have been designed to kill them eventually, hence the R.A.B. note, but I doubt it because once again, Voldemort needed a way to get it himself. I don't agree with the seeing what he did to the kids thoery because it wouldn't have weakened him that much and it couldn't have been that bad. He didn't have a wand then and the kids did turn out all right.
Someone else also stated that the potion may have been different because R.A.B. had already drunk it but once again I have to disagree *sorry* If someone did start drinking it and were alone, which means that they wouldn't have made it, then don't you think that the potion, after a certain amount of time would refilled itself so that someone else couldn't just walk in, finish it, and grab the horcrux. Although I guess the theory does work becaue Voldemort didn't think that anyone other then himself knew about his horcruxes. But then my only question is how he made the potion? he probably didn't know what was coming so why grab the horcrux, leave a fake one, then go back and make another potion so that he could put it there for Voldemort to get through. It just doesn't make sense to me.
Sorry if I wasn't much help and sorry for shooting down so many ideas.....I tried to be nice.
I don't believe the aging potion because although it is an interesting theory, why would Dumbledore being saying the things he was if he was just getting older.....it doesn't add up. I also don't agree with the death potion theory or the thoery where he is seeing what Voldemort did to the kids *sorry* because as someone already pointed out, it would have instantly killed him so that he was't able to reach the horcrux. Plus, Voldemort needed some way to get it himself without dying. It is again a good theory though and the potion may have been designed to kill them eventually, hence the R.A.B. note, but I doubt it because once again, Voldemort needed a way to get it himself. I don't agree with the seeing what he did to the kids thoery because it wouldn't have weakened him that much and it couldn't have been that bad. He didn't have a wand then and the kids did turn out all right.
Someone else also stated that the potion may have been different because R.A.B. had already drunk it but once again I have to disagree *sorry* If someone did start drinking it and were alone, which means that they wouldn't have made it, then don't you think that the potion, after a certain amount of time would refilled itself so that someone else couldn't just walk in, finish it, and grab the horcrux. Although I guess the theory does work becaue Voldemort didn't think that anyone other then himself knew about his horcruxes. But then my only question is how he made the potion? he probably didn't know what was coming so why grab the horcrux, leave a fake one, then go back and make another potion so that he could put it there for Voldemort to get through. It just doesn't make sense to me.
Sorry if I wasn't much help and sorry for shooting down so many ideas.....I tried to be nice.
This may sound stupid, and I'm not sure if anyone has suggested it yet; but could the green liquid have been Dementor blood?
Think about it: the more Dumbledore drank, the more hopeless and distraught he felt. When Dementors are about, you feel more and more hopeless. It's possible that something in Dementor physiology uses this effect of their blood and amplifys it around them.
Think about it: the more Dumbledore drank, the more hopeless and distraught he felt. When Dementors are about, you feel more and more hopeless. It's possible that something in Dementor physiology uses this effect of their blood and amplifys it around them.
I don't think that's stupid! It's an interesting idea. DD was extremely hopeless and distraught, and that definitely is a symptom of being near dementors. The fog that's taking over is another interesting concept, which we know is due to the dementors, and is creating the same effect. I'd say your idea is definitely possible.
Feeling hopeless and distraught is probably something that LV fears, so it would be something he'd try to inflict on others.
Feeling hopeless and distraught is probably something that LV fears, so it would be something he'd try to inflict on others.
Yeah, it's a great idea! I'm not sure if it's blood or whatever but it could be connected to Dementors... the effect were similar... "I want to die" 
-> theres 1 thing which I'm not sure. DD looked very frightened. Do Dementors cause fright? Or maybe DD experienced something similar before and this potion reminded him about that?
-> theres 1 thing which I'm not sure. DD looked very frightened. Do Dementors cause fright? Or maybe DD experienced something similar before and this potion reminded him about that?
I love the dementor blood idea! That is a great idea! 
Do dementos have blood? I hope that we find out what the juice stuff was in the 7th book....but we may never find out. Nice thinking though!
Do dementos have blood? I hope that we find out what the juice stuff was in the 7th book....but we may never find out. Nice thinking though!
This gave me another thought. (about the dementor thing) Does a Dementor have any blood ? I mean, they're kind of dead in one way.. or have you ever heard of a dementor who died ? At least I haven't.. but maybe she just did't wrote it ;)
Sorry, I didn't see that the same question was in the port above.. sorry. :unsure:
Sorry, I didn't see that the same question was in the port above.. sorry. :unsure:
I don't think the potion was ment to kill whomever actually got to the horcrux . The first thing that DD said was " water " he came to , I think the Inferi were ment to kill . I do like the idea of Dementor blood , but blood will congeal after a matter a seconds . I guess JK could let it have some magical properties so it wouldn't . I think it is most likely some type of potion and not a poison , but has effects similar to that of what Pingmachine said , but I do think he relived some horrible memory . As for R.A.B/regulus , he could have easily summoned Kreacher with him and forced him to drink the potion and banned him from speaking about it . I don't think LV would have worried about elven magic , he surely wasn't worried about an under-age wizard
Excellent point, GrindewaldTheGreat!
I never thought of Kreacher as being the second "person" needed to get the horcrux! I kept insisting that there had to be 2 people, so it couldn't just be R.A.B., but his bringing Kreacher is an inspiration!
Maybe the reason that Kreacher is so miserable, aside from being owned by who he was, is because of the potion.
Thanks for a great thought!
I never thought of Kreacher as being the second "person" needed to get the horcrux! I kept insisting that there had to be 2 people, so it couldn't just be R.A.B., but his bringing Kreacher is an inspiration!
Maybe the reason that Kreacher is so miserable, aside from being owned by who he was, is because of the potion.
Thanks for a great thought!
I actually thought of Kreacher too, when I first realized that RAB could possibly be Regulus... didn't Dd say something about the boat being too small for two 'full-size' people, but because Harry was young, and not completely grown-up yet, they could manage it?
As for the Dementor blood idea, that would make sense. I got the feeling that the potion had more of a psychological effect than physical... maybe it causes the drinker to feel despair? That would explain why Dd was wishing to die while he was drinking it. I hadn't connected that with dementors... it's a very interesting thought.
As for the Dementor blood idea, that would make sense. I got the feeling that the potion had more of a psychological effect than physical... maybe it causes the drinker to feel despair? That would explain why Dd was wishing to die while he was drinking it. I hadn't connected that with dementors... it's a very interesting thought.
i think it was a non magic potion that DD drank, because when malfoy disarmed DD he could have thought "accio wand" and have his wand in an instant if he was in a healthy state because somewhere in the book 5 that happened when DD was fighting LV in the department of mysteries...
but if he drank an anti magic potion he couldn't do anything
but if he drank an anti magic potion he couldn't do anything
Well the Dementors seem like undead, but I figure that if they breed, which we know they do because of the mist, then they cant be. Undead don't breed they just kill more people to make more of themselves.
I dont understand why DD had to drink the potion in the first place...I mean this may sound stupid, but why couldnt DD just scoop the locket out of the bottom with the glass, then drink or take the locket out. Im sure im just being ignorant, and not thinking of something, but that would seem a lot easier.
| QUOTE (littlexoxlotte @ Aug 6 2005, 08:52 PM) |
| i think it was a non magic potion that DD drank, because when malfoy disarmed DD he could have thought "accio wand" and have his wand in an instant if he was in a healthy state because somewhere in the book 5 that happened when DD was fighting LV in the department of mysteries... but if he drank an anti magic potion he couldn't do anything |
But remember that he did magic: he immobilised Harry without words and before that he conjured the ring of fire to save them from Inferi. So I guess it wasn't that kind of potion.
| QUOTE (Fawkes. @ Aug 7 2005, 06:55 PM) |
| I dont understand why DD had to drink the potion in the first place...I mean this may sound stupid, but why couldnt DD just scoop the locket out of the bottom with the glass, then drink or take the locket out. Im sure im just being ignorant, and not thinking of something, but that would seem a lot easier. |
Hmmm... the only way I can explain it is you have to keep in mind we are dealing with Voldemort, quoted as 'the most powerful dark wizard ever' which is a monumental statement. DD already demonstrated to Harry that he could not touch the potion and the only way to extract it was to scoop it up in the cup. I think we are meant to take it as read that DD has rather a lot of knowledge about magic, and as he identified the need for blood on the cave entrance, he also identified the need to drink the potion rather than to just scoop it up and tip it out.
I give DD the credit of knowing if puting himself in harms way like that would be beneficial or not after 6 books. I think the thing we have to remember is this is not one book, one story that occupies our life for a mere moment, this is a continuing saga and as such there are things we learn about the characters in previous books that should make particular actions of theirs understandable even if not explained there and then.
| QUOTE (Fawkes. @ Aug 7 2005, 02:55 AM) |
| I dont understand why DD had to drink the potion in the first place...I mean this may sound stupid, but why couldnt DD just scoop the locket out of the bottom with the glass, then drink or take the locket out. Im sure im just being ignorant, and not thinking of something, but that would seem a lot easier. |
I agree with your thought that it seems strange that there was no other way... my thought was why didn't he scoop it up and pour it out on the ground?
However, I also agree with razzberry2, DD poked and looked, motioned and did spells over the potion. He may have known more of what it was than he was willing to admit to Harry. He may have thought that if Harry knew what it really was, he wouldn't force DD to drink it.
That's a good one samsmon !!
I've just reread that chapter and these are my thoughts:the basin was kind of a Pensive and that liquid was a memory. I'm pretty sure it was Snape's memory from the night when Harry's parents were killed:
"Don't hurt them, don't hurt them, please, please, it's my fault, hurt me instead..."
Another idea: Still Snape's memory but from his "conversation" with Voldemort. Voldemort wanted to hear the part of prophecy that Snape overheard and he was using Legimency against him:
"I dont want to... don't make me... let me go"
And the last, that I like the most. We've been always wondering why Dumbledore trusts Snape. Here's the explanation: they had made an Unbreakable vow just after Harry's parents were murdered. Dumbledore had to threaten Snape thet he will hurt somebody that Snape liked\loved (I know it isn't DD-like but sometimes even he has to use some drastic methods):
"Don't hurt them, don't hurt them, please, please, it's my fault, hurt me instead...", "No, no, no ... no ... I can't, don't make me, I don't want to..." , "Please, please, please, no ... not that, not that, I'll do anything..." "I want to die! Make it stop!..." "KILL ME!"
Snape didn't want to help Dumbledore but from that moment he had to.
What do you think???
"Don't hurt them, don't hurt them, please, please, it's my fault, hurt me instead..."
Another idea: Still Snape's memory but from his "conversation" with Voldemort. Voldemort wanted to hear the part of prophecy that Snape overheard and he was using Legimency against him:
"I dont want to... don't make me... let me go"
And the last, that I like the most. We've been always wondering why Dumbledore trusts Snape. Here's the explanation: they had made an Unbreakable vow just after Harry's parents were murdered. Dumbledore had to threaten Snape thet he will hurt somebody that Snape liked\loved (I know it isn't DD-like but sometimes even he has to use some drastic methods):
"Don't hurt them, don't hurt them, please, please, it's my fault, hurt me instead...", "No, no, no ... no ... I can't, don't make me, I don't want to..." , "Please, please, please, no ... not that, not that, I'll do anything..." "I want to die! Make it stop!..." "KILL ME!"
Snape didn't want to help Dumbledore but from that moment he had to.
What do you think???
I don't belive for that last idea. It dosn't sound like Dumbledore to threaten someone.
I belive it was dementors blood; After fighting against Voldemort so many years, he must have seen something so horrible that it would make even a powerfull wizard like Dumbledore hopeless.
This is of-topic, but someone wondered why Death-eaters are called so? I think it's because their job is basically kill people.
I belive it was dementors blood; After fighting against Voldemort so many years, he must have seen something so horrible that it would make even a powerfull wizard like Dumbledore hopeless.
This is of-topic, but someone wondered why Death-eaters are called so? I think it's because their job is basically kill people.
| QUOTE (tomziu @ Aug 15 2005, 02:57 AM) |
| I've just reread that chapter and these are my thoughts:the basin was kind of a Pensive and that liquid was a memory. I'm pretty sure it was Snape's memory from the night when Harry's parents were killed: "Don't hurt them, don't hurt them, please, please, it's my fault, hurt me instead..." Another idea: Still Snape's memory but from his "conversation" with Voldemort. Voldemort wanted to hear the part of prophecy that Snape overheard and he was using Legimency against him: "I dont want to... don't make me... let me go" And the last, that I like the most. We've been always wondering why Dumbledore trusts Snape. Here's the explanation: they had made an Unbreakable vow just after Harry's parents were murdered. Dumbledore had to threaten Snape thet he will hurt somebody that Snape liked\loved (I know it isn't DD-like but sometimes even he has to use some drastic methods): "Don't hurt them, don't hurt them, please, please, it's my fault, hurt me instead...", "No, no, no ... no ... I can't, don't make me, I don't want to..." , "Please, please, please, no ... not that, not that, I'll do anything..." "I want to die! Make it stop!..." "KILL ME!" Snape didn't want to help Dumbledore but from that moment he had to. What do you think??? |
I dont think it was DD it was V who was telling Snape that he was going to kill Lilly and James.
| QUOTE |
| To be quite honest, i believe, and this it one of the first times i thought this way, that the potion itself has no real significance and is something JKR just created to do what she needed done. |
I have to agree, I think the potion was nothing more than just a defensive mechanism which forced the drinker to stop ensuing the locket. Obviously if DD was alone he would have stopped drinking it and would not have retrieved the locket, that's how powerful the potion was. The only way to beat it was to have Harry force feed him.
| QUOTE |
| I belive it was dementors blood; After fighting against Voldemort so many years, he must have seen something so horrible that it would make even a powerfull wizard like Dumbledore hopeless. |
This an interesting idea as well, the potion did seem to have some Demeter like effects. But also it has some torturing effects as well. Maybe its a potion that is mixed with Dementor's blood and Boggart essence or something, ha ha.
It is intersting to note that while I was reading the cave chapter, and when DD was suffering, I instantly remembered Snape's classroom with the pictures of people in pain.
Okay first off, I would like to state that I am new to this and that I have never been a part of such a structured, well-maintained, and regulated message board. I did read the FAQ but I would like the mods to let me know if I do something wrong...I did search for this topic but I didn't find any results...but I'm not entirely sure if I did it right or covered all possible topics, so if it exists direct me to where I can talk about it...
Anyway, I was curious, why do you guys think that Dumbledore started spewing out what he did once he did drink the potion? I mean, what kind of significance does it hold that he stated words such as "It's all my fault, all my fault. Please make it stop. I know I did wrong, oh please make it stop and I'll never, never again..." -Page 572
Why would the potion make him say stuff like that? It seems a little ironic that he sounds like he's almost in a position that he's done something terrible that he wishes he could take back but can't...like a certain other character that I know of (mainly Snape).....Now, I dont know what the potion could have actually done, perhaps, make the drinker relive a certain moment in life in which deep sorrow and regret occured or whatnot but I think it's a little ironic that a potion that seemingly causes the drinker pain and leaves them in such a drained state also made Dumbledore say such things....
Is it possible that there is some other meaning to this or is what Dumbledore says strictly in reference to the effects the potion is having on his body?
I'd love to hear what you guys thinka nd again, I am sorry if this has come up before...
Anyway, I was curious, why do you guys think that Dumbledore started spewing out what he did once he did drink the potion? I mean, what kind of significance does it hold that he stated words such as "It's all my fault, all my fault. Please make it stop. I know I did wrong, oh please make it stop and I'll never, never again..." -Page 572
Why would the potion make him say stuff like that? It seems a little ironic that he sounds like he's almost in a position that he's done something terrible that he wishes he could take back but can't...like a certain other character that I know of (mainly Snape).....Now, I dont know what the potion could have actually done, perhaps, make the drinker relive a certain moment in life in which deep sorrow and regret occured or whatnot but I think it's a little ironic that a potion that seemingly causes the drinker pain and leaves them in such a drained state also made Dumbledore say such things....
Is it possible that there is some other meaning to this or is what Dumbledore says strictly in reference to the effects the potion is having on his body?
I'd love to hear what you guys thinka nd again, I am sorry if this has come up before...
I sort of believe that the potion, like you suggested, makes the drinker relive a particularly important, or terrible, or painful moment of their lives. If this were the case, it seems that he could very well be reliving the moment wen Snape told Dumbledore about how he had betrayed Lily and James. His dialogue seems to fit almost perfectly.
"Its all my fault" _ It was all Snape's fault that Voldemort had gone after the Potters.
"Please make it stop" _ A little bit of a stretch, but this could be referring to either Snape's guilt, or his unbreakable servitude to the Dark Lord.
"I know I did wrong" _ Self explanatory.
"Make it stop and I'll never, never again..." _ Make my guilt/my servitude with Voldemort stop, and I will never claim allegiance to him again, and will renounce him completely.
"Don't hurt them, don't hurt them please." _ This one is very peculiar. This could have been Snape pleading with the Dark Lord, but that seems unlikely. Or it could have been Dumbledore himself pleading with Snape to not tell Voldemort aboutt he prophesy, before Snape had turned to the good side.
"Its my fault, take me instead..." _ Again could be Snape pleading with Voldemort in Godric's Hollow. Or it could be Snape talking to Dumbledore, begging him to allow him to come over to the good side, instead of sending him to Azkaban.... Really no idea.
This is all ridiculous speculation on my part. The posisbilities are endless. Of course the theories could be entirely wrong. Perhaps the potion merely causes intense pain, and everything Dumbledore says is meaningless and random. (Knowing JKR's style, I doubt this)
Some people also believe that the potion makes the drinker reveal his/her deepest fear. I believe that if this is true, Dumbledore is pleading with Death Eaters or the Dark Lord himself to not attack the school. Dumbledore's words align much better with this theory than the last:
"Its all my fault.." _I have failed at my job to protect my students.
"Please make it stop" _He could be talking to Voldemort, or be asking Order members to help stop the attack.
"I know I did wrong" _Self explanatory
"Make it stop and I'll never, never again..." _ Stop the Death Eaters from attacking my students and I promise that it will never happen again.
"Don't hurt them, don't hurt them please..." _ Self Explanatory
"Its all my fault take me instead." _Dumbledore is willing to put his own life in front of his students, something that was highlighted by his move to conceal Harry rather than disarm Malfoy.
Only one person knows the exact effect of the potion, but I am convinced that it and Dumbledore's words will play an important role in the understanding of everything.
"Its all my fault" _ It was all Snape's fault that Voldemort had gone after the Potters.
"Please make it stop" _ A little bit of a stretch, but this could be referring to either Snape's guilt, or his unbreakable servitude to the Dark Lord.
"I know I did wrong" _ Self explanatory.
"Make it stop and I'll never, never again..." _ Make my guilt/my servitude with Voldemort stop, and I will never claim allegiance to him again, and will renounce him completely.
"Don't hurt them, don't hurt them please." _ This one is very peculiar. This could have been Snape pleading with the Dark Lord, but that seems unlikely. Or it could have been Dumbledore himself pleading with Snape to not tell Voldemort aboutt he prophesy, before Snape had turned to the good side.
"Its my fault, take me instead..." _ Again could be Snape pleading with Voldemort in Godric's Hollow. Or it could be Snape talking to Dumbledore, begging him to allow him to come over to the good side, instead of sending him to Azkaban.... Really no idea.
This is all ridiculous speculation on my part. The posisbilities are endless. Of course the theories could be entirely wrong. Perhaps the potion merely causes intense pain, and everything Dumbledore says is meaningless and random. (Knowing JKR's style, I doubt this)
Some people also believe that the potion makes the drinker reveal his/her deepest fear. I believe that if this is true, Dumbledore is pleading with Death Eaters or the Dark Lord himself to not attack the school. Dumbledore's words align much better with this theory than the last:
"Its all my fault.." _I have failed at my job to protect my students.
"Please make it stop" _He could be talking to Voldemort, or be asking Order members to help stop the attack.
"I know I did wrong" _Self explanatory
"Make it stop and I'll never, never again..." _ Stop the Death Eaters from attacking my students and I promise that it will never happen again.
"Don't hurt them, don't hurt them please..." _ Self Explanatory
"Its all my fault take me instead." _Dumbledore is willing to put his own life in front of his students, something that was highlighted by his move to conceal Harry rather than disarm Malfoy.
Only one person knows the exact effect of the potion, but I am convinced that it and Dumbledore's words will play an important role in the understanding of everything.
Hi I have started a topic on something related to this before the admins locked my topic. Anyway here I go again
I beleive Dumbledore forced snape to tell Dark Lord about the prophecy so that he can get close to DL.
Dumbledore must have thought that let snape tell about the prophecy to Dark Lord and get close meanwhile we will use fidelus charm to protect lily, james and nevilles parents.
All these things backfired and so Dumbledore is feeling guilty when drinking the potion.
This might contradict the opinions of many people who beleive that snape turned spy after he told about the prophecy.
But I also beleive that snape turned a death eater on Dumbledore's orders (ie) snape was never with DL he was always working with DD.
If you come to think of it the only information which snape passed which was potentially very dangerous is about the prophecy ( on DD's Orders ) other than that he has not passed any other information which we know of.
I beleive Dumbledore forced snape to tell Dark Lord about the prophecy so that he can get close to DL.
Dumbledore must have thought that let snape tell about the prophecy to Dark Lord and get close meanwhile we will use fidelus charm to protect lily, james and nevilles parents.
All these things backfired and so Dumbledore is feeling guilty when drinking the potion.
This might contradict the opinions of many people who beleive that snape turned spy after he told about the prophecy.
But I also beleive that snape turned a death eater on Dumbledore's orders (ie) snape was never with DL he was always working with DD.
If you come to think of it the only information which snape passed which was potentially very dangerous is about the prophecy ( on DD's Orders ) other than that he has not passed any other information which we know of.
Is there a link that you have so that I could check out your thread snape?
I never really looked at it like that...and that would make sense with what the potion could have been potentially doing to Dumbledore, making him relive his most painful moments..
I never really looked at it like that...and that would make sense with what the potion could have been potentially doing to Dumbledore, making him relive his most painful moments..
Hiya JDogg and a warm welcome to the forums! 
You old flatterer, you... I don't know...
Anywho, well, yes there are a few similar topics floating around here, I'm afraid. What was the Potion that Dumbledore took? and The Cave. They can be a little tricky to find sometimes - that's when the filters come in handy in the search engine because the search won't pick things up in the topic has been inactive for more than 30 days, which does occasionally happen around here sometimes and it doesn't mean that the topic is dead - it just means that it's gone quiet for a little while, that's all. Things have a habit of leaping back all of a sudden around here...
Which leaves me rather torn about what to do now.
Mmm.
The thing is that one of those topics is about the cave in general and the other one is what the potion was and it seems to me as though you have something a little more specific in mind here with regard to the actual conversation so what I'll do is let this remain open for a while and see what happens. Conversations relating directly to the cave or the potion itself should really be carried out in those other threads, but as long as you stick to the significance of the words themselves here, I'll leave it open.
You old flatterer, you... I don't know... Anywho, well, yes there are a few similar topics floating around here, I'm afraid. What was the Potion that Dumbledore took? and The Cave. They can be a little tricky to find sometimes - that's when the filters come in handy in the search engine because the search won't pick things up in the topic has been inactive for more than 30 days, which does occasionally happen around here sometimes and it doesn't mean that the topic is dead - it just means that it's gone quiet for a little while, that's all. Things have a habit of leaping back all of a sudden around here...
Which leaves me rather torn about what to do now.
Mmm.
The thing is that one of those topics is about the cave in general and the other one is what the potion was and it seems to me as though you have something a little more specific in mind here with regard to the actual conversation so what I'll do is let this remain open for a while and see what happens. Conversations relating directly to the cave or the potion itself should really be carried out in those other threads, but as long as you stick to the significance of the words themselves here, I'll leave it open.
Everyone is convionced that the potion made DD relive Snape's memories, or that voldy hurt some students. I truthfully beleive that this may be a memory of his own. Remember DD telling harry re makes mistakes, and that when he does they are big mistakes. And we all know tha DD rid the world of Grinwauld. Isn't reasonable that this memory was of that incident. That Grinwauld was harming someone or some people, DD made a mistake and felt it was his fault that these people/person were/was in danger and that if he let them go, he wouldn't make a mistake about whatever it was (perhaps underestimating grinwaulds power/challenging him). Telling him to stop torturing those who really aren't involved in their personal war. It could also be Grinwauld dying and DD feeling guilty about it. Perhaps another mistake was taking his life. I feel this may be more plausable than DD reliving Snape's memory.
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