Mod Note: This topic may disturb some younger members so please do not read it unless you are sure you can handle it. I may be over-reacting but it's better to be safe then sorry.








Maybe this concept is a little to risqué for this board but I'm going to ask it anyway because it has been really and truly bugging me for about a year. I suppose the mods can always delete this topic.

Does anyone have any theories about what happened when Umbridge was carried off by the centaurs? I seem to remember from mythology that centaurs were coarsely sexual beasts. In other words, rape was an activity associated with centaurs.

This is a brief article from the online Encyclopedia Mythica.
http://www.pantheon.org/articles/c/centaurs.html

Specifically, look at the phrase "carrying off helpless young maidens" (for purposes I'm sure you can imagine). The centaurs carried Umbridge off.

Umbridge's behavior after being rescused also leads me to question what the centaurs did to her.

I think they just kept her prisoner. Or were about to kill her when DD showed up. I'm going to put a warning up on this topic to warn other readers, just to make sure they all know what they are about to read.

Yeah, no problem about the warning. That's why I figured my question would be deleted...its an adult topic.

It's just that it has been bugging me for some time. I was really interested in all sorts of mythology when I was younger and read as much as I could find. JKR seems pretty well versed in mythology as well.

That's why I've been wondering about this whole thing. Surely, she knew what the stories on Centaurs were.

It was in Greek Mythology. And Harry Potter centaurs did not harm women or children. Or at least they didn't harm children.....even if they were teenagers. But they wouldn't harm women either, or else the centaur who wanted to harm Harry because he was almost a man, would've wanted to harm Hermione as well. (Since she was almost a woman)

I don't thnk JK would put anything of a sexual nature in the books. Anyway, who would want to do you know what with Umbridge? :shock:

^^lol, no one i can think of.... anyways yeh dumbledore probabaly rescued umbridge from them or something like that.

Hm, I think it's an interesting post, but I don't think it's factual. I hope the sixth and seventh books become more mature, but I doubt this a forshadow of that happening.

hmmm i just think that she was carried off to be punished for attacking the centaurs.

QUOTE

I don't thnk JK would put anything of a sexual nature in the books. Anyway, who would want to do you know what with Umbridge?  :shock:

Both of those very good points, but I think GoddessPrime is onto something here, however gruesome (and strangely funny) it may be. I don't know if I believe it, but it gave me a good laugh (not because it's an absurd theory, because... well, I'm immature, let's leave it at that).

as if the centaurs would do such a disgusting deed to umbridge! who would want to screw an old hag?!

[quote]...Dumbledore's head was inclined towards the woman sitting next to him, who was talking into his ear. She looked, Harry thought, like somebody's maiden aunt: squat, with short, curly, mouse-brown hair in which she had placed a horrible pink Alice band that matched the fluffy pink cardigan she wore over her robes. Then she turned her face slightly to take a sip from her goblet and he saw, with a shock of recognition, a pallid, toadlike face and a pair of prominent, pouchy eyes.
'It's that Umbridge woman!'[/quote]

I found the quote!!!! I'd forgotten where in the book it was.

This quote is what got me thinking: I mean, in all the mythology books and all the mythology websites it was specified that they carried off maidens for their nefarious purposes.

Umbridge was carried off and she had been previously described as a maiden.

I'm not saying it isn't disgusting, but, darnit, it's an image that's sticking with me.

I think Centaurs can get better. I posted a theory of reprodcution with Aragog and said NOBODY would do it. I think the Centaurs are better off with Aragog. nah jk lol

I honestly think this theory is very funny. Though I have to say, no matter how MAIDEN Umbridge is, no creature, human or not, would want to do anything sexual with her. Unless it was a toad.

^^ No, I disagree...even a toad's got better taste than that.

OOOOOK i don't jk would put sexual nature into a children/teen book

I am unsure what to think. JK is really clever with the way she uses mythology. And the way it is worded just shows the link. Anyway from what most people think in other threads Harry will die at the end. So if Harry dies why not add a little rape???

Hmmm... now I'm all confused. But when am I not ^.^ I just shudder at the thought of the centuars. If that was what they actually did to Umbridge, then I FEEL SORRY FOR THE CENTUARS! Lmao!

Yeah feel sorry for the Centaurs! She deserves it I think for using the Cruciatus *sorry about spelling* curse on Harry

though the theory does make sense, i don't think she would put that in a book where children read also. who knows...

lol i find this hilarious and disgusting at the same time. i feel really bad for the centaurs though. they just probably took her prisoner but didnt do anything like that to her (who would exactly...?)

I think that's why J.K.Rowling left the subject on the air, so we can imagine whatever torture we prefered for Umbridge...dunno

Preferred?

I don't think so. It's simply one of those very disgusting thoughts that seem recur whenever I think of Umbridge. I wish I could find evidence to the contrary to lay this to rest in my mind.

I think perhaps as a subtext. Like, y'know obviously JKR wouldn't like, write a big ol' description of the act, and then say afterwards *Oh yes, Umbridge was the centaur's plaything for a while there* and so on, but it's quite possibly there if you know about these things...it does follow and make a little sense...

Oh, and on the subject of who would want to have sex with Umbridge, who would want to rape some old terminally ill lady in hospital? Who would want to rape a small child? These things happen, it's not a case of finding the hottest person you can, it's about power....*shrug*

Maybe that´s right. JK just put those words, like maiden and said she got carried away. Maybe she did it so the ones who knew some mithology, who most likely aren´t going to be kids, figured it out.
Or maybe we´re giving it too much thought round this posibility

Hi everybody,

Ok, sorry for being so lost, but what word with the letter "e"??

I think it's referring to the 'effing owls' thing.

Come on guys, JKR has said herself that she writes these books for herself, not specifically for children. I'm sure kids hear far worse than that in the schoolyard. You can't protect kids for ever - words like 'effing' and the subject of rape - and many other issues in the books such as genocide, murder, torture and abuse are a sad fact of this world and they need to be faced. If you're touchy over stuff like this then just don't read the books.

Maybe something by Enid Blyton would be better.

Totally agree with you, Dana_Scully. There are things that the kids are going to hear anywhere else. Besides, there are things and words that when you take them away from books just make them seem not too real(leaving aside the fact that it´s fiction)

By adult theme, as I mentioned in my previous post, I mean sex, pornography, use of adult language/words like f*** etc, and the like. Stuff one finds in XXX websites, for instance.

NOT general life themes like those mentioned about genocides, murder, torture and abuse.

There is a difference here. Can anyone see what I am saying ?

What I posted previously was this: If four letter words have been slipped in, then rape can easily be too.

Wow. First off, I was not passing snide remarks. Had I been referring to anyone in particular, I would have referred to them by name. The 'you' I was using was the generic term, not specific.

Secondly, it wasn't a swear. Any more than 'blinking', 'blooming', 'flipping' and any other number of British slang terms that are alternatives to swear words are, so 'effing' is neither a swear word nor evidence that JKR is trying to slip inappropriate things in the books. I'm quite sure that there are plenty of other British people here who would confirm that for you.

You took it all *way* too personally. And if that was the type of adult theme you meant, then you should have stated that more clearly. Adult to me doesn't just mean porn; it means anything from violence to rape to sex.

I'm tempted to lock this if it's going to turn into a warzone, but then I'd probably get yelled at for not giving you, Jackie, a chance to respond. So, if this topic can return to a civilised debate, I'll leave it. If not, well...

yeah,okay i think that is engough arrguing. but anyway weird thought.but who knows???

I'm happily convinced that JK would not include that plot line in a group of books, that she has insisted are writen for children. Despite adults enjoying them greatly.

I never knew that centaurs had that mythodology hanging behind them, I always just thought they were something from old Greek books and films that were half human, half horse. I'm soooo nieve.

JK writes the books in a way that children can comprehend, but still entertain adults. Some of the things she puts into the books are placed in a way that a child might not notice, but were added solely for adults.

For instance, there is never mention of sexual displays between Mr. and Mrs. Weasley. The fact that they have seven children, all within a few years of each other, shows that they have a very active sex life. Or did until sometime after Ginny's birth, at any rate.

JK had the Centaurs carry Umbridge off into the forest. When she was returned, she behaved as if she had experienced something very traumatic. In fact, she behaved just as I would imagine a rape victim to behave, shortly after <I>their</I> tramatic experience.

If you will note, however, JK Rowling DID NOT put rape into her books. She merely had one of her characters experience something traumatic, and left it to our imaginations to decide what that might be.

A child might read that passage of the books and think, "Wow, they must have really done something horrible to her! I wonder what it was?"

While an adult, who is more worldly, and rather more preoccupied with sex, is able to imagine what sorts of terrible things may have befallen her.

I for one do not believe JK's Centaurs would be capable of such evil acts. They have shown that they have honor, and are a species proud to "be apart." For them, mating with a human would be no different than a human mating with a dog. While this act may appeal to certain humans, and mating with humans might appeal to certain Centaurs, it is taboo in both societies. That does not mean it cannot happen. Parvati and Lavender both seemed to consider Firenze as a possible love interest.

But I do not think the Centaurs "punished" Umbridge with rape. For one thing, Dumbledore would have been outraged. Rather than merely rescuing Umbridge, I would think he would try to drive the Centaurs out, or at least lay charges before the Ministry.

Her traumatic experience could have easily been suspending her over a cauldron of boiling water and carrots, threatening to make a soup of her. Which would probably have much the same effect. Especially if she believed they actually would, and was only saved from such a fate by Dumbledore.

I don't know if this will reasure you in any way, but I hope it at least helps to show that, perhaps, JK was not thinking of such a vile act when she wrote this segment, but only allowing that <I>something</I> befell Umbridge, and left it to the reader to decide what that might be.

_________________

As far as "bad" words are concerned, this is a concept that I have found hypocritical and just plain stupid since I was about four years old. Why can I say "poop" but not "s***?" They mean the same thing. If someone says "fudge" rather than "f***" they are displaying the same concept, they are just using a less accurate word, because it is more acceptable to society. Using one word in place of another makes that word just as bad as the one which you replaced. And if the "bad" word is used in a context that is not meant to be insulting, than there is nothing "bad" about it. You could call someone a dirty, rotten mother-lover, and it is not too "bad" to type out for all the world to see. Whereas if you were to call someone a dirty mother******, you have to censure out certain words. Infact, I believe the one I did NOT censure sounds worse, as it implies you actually have such relations with your mother, while the second term is commonly used to show dislike for someone, and is not taken literally.

It is not the word itself that is bad, but how it is used.

I don't know, mate, I guess that's just one of the quirks of society. Some words are more acceptable than others, that's just the way it is. Maybe it's a Brit thing, but 'poop' isn't exactly used in conversation either. Not because its considered language, but because it refers to something that people just don't want to be talking about over lunch, you know? I think all these types of words are just euphemisms for subjects that are not considered palatable for everyday conversations - toilet habits, sex, orientation etc. The words arise because people are afraid of calling a spade a spade when it comes to these types of subjects.

Anyway, I'm drifting off topic here so I'm going to shut up now about this, but if anyone would like to continue the topic, feel free to start a new thread about this if you want.

On the topic of the centaurs, I agree with LLTWK - I never commented on this topic when it was first posted ages ago because I didn't think it was happening for many reasons, including the type of people JKR portrays the centaurs to be. Plus the much-missed NastyShort said everything I was going to anyway.

this is interseting i think that is wasn't sexuall but something did happen to her but what was it

I like this whole theory. I really doubt that JKR is really trying to protect kids. Kids wouldnt read to much into the fact that some people say that Centaurs are sexual predators. Another thing is the state of Umbridge when she came out of the forest. Heres a passage:

Hmm. . .interesting topic. As for the mentioned theory that JKR wouldn't put anything like this in her books, I think it would be possible she would because children too immature for the concept of bestiality wouldn't get it in the first place if Umbridge was supposedly raped and there would be no harm done whatsoever.
I never thought of it this way, but it could be a probable theory for what happened to Umbridge when she was in the woods. It doesn't seem likely, though, that the centaurs that think humans are so foul would actually have sex with one. Maybe they think it isn't anything to be proud of/happy about. Well, I actually wouldn't be surprised if this actually had happened. JKR probably didn't elaborate about what went on so our imaginations can feed the possibilities. I will reread the parts so I can see for sure if that is what seems to be implied.

i think its pretty obvious that JK would put something like this into her books.. but not necessarily state it. She looks up her history and all of her mythological creatures doesn't she? surely she would have known this is what they're famous for??

than again having said that i agree with the what someone else said that the centaurs JK describes don't seem like there would want to BEFOUL themselves by raping a human!

In that link on one of the very first posts though that gives the background info on centaurs it mentioned there was one centaur who was not like the others... called Chizron or something i think? anyway that seems to be a parallel with Firenze doesn't it? and if she used that in her books, why not the rest of the information??

hmm it's interesting anyway...

(ps. its a bit annoying when people keep going... no jk wouldnt do that because umbridge is an ugly toad and its disgusting. bad things happen- thats life.)

I think that the way JK put it, it could be taken any way that your imagination came up with. Up until I read this thread, I had never conscidered the possbility of Umbridge being raped. I had thought that the reason Umbridge really hated half-bloods, and non-human creatures before is because she was terrified by them. Just being carted off by "beasts" seemed to be enough to me to scare her for some time afterward. Obviously, she did recover, so I don't believe it was a life-scarring incident.

This is a very interesting and probable theory. It would make sense except for that idea that it would be degrading to the centaurs to rape a human. They always seem to set themselves so much higher than humans, I don't think it would be something where they would stoop that low.

As for the reference to "maiden" I think it was probably two different meanings of the word. Maiden as in young woman, in the centaur lore; and maiden as in spinster in the HP book.

i dont think eanything like that would have happerned in it

I have to be one that agree's with this theory however...gross it is. Of course J.K. wouldn't put that stuff it. No writer in there good mind would to be honest. She didn't put it in, becuase of two reasons.

1) She didn't need too. It was implied if you read mythology.
2) Do you honestly expect J.K. to have Harry and Hermione follow?

This whole thing with Umbridge escaping the centaurs isn't right... I mean there's no way she could have fought or outrun so many angry centaurs...anyway-she has caused so much problems for Harry and whole bunch of other people-the half -bloods and non-human creatures that I hope they did something very painful to her-a rape sounds nice

Yeah i agree with bladerchick13, JK rowling would never put that into a childrens book! and these books, she wrote them mostly for herself, not others. and i doubt anyone would want to do you-know-what with Umbridge

I never really thought about it, I agree with you, cupcake. I just figure the centaurs took her as prisoner until Dumbledore went and found her. She insulted them and they did nothing more than take her as prisoner. End of story. (They might have beat her up a little, but nothing serious.) That's my opinion anyway.

I never really thought about this until I saw this post. Maybe they did rape her, but JKR wouldn't put that in a children's book. Or maybe the centaurs tortured her. Whatever they did to her, I hope it was something bad because she deserves it. She was so horrible to Harry and the people who believed him.

I guess we'll never know exactly what happened to Umbridge...unless JKR tells us. But I think they most likely tortured her. Maybe something worse...she deserves to be put through the ringer...but I think rape is going to far...What ever they did made her worse I think...in DH she's even more evil. But that's just my opinion.

Hm..I've never really thought about it... maybe she was raped, or maybe they tortured her... But i really doubt Jk. Rowling would put something like rape into a childrens book.. And we'll never really find ot until JKR actually reveals it to us.