I have to say that when I first read the Snape killing Dumbledore I was like "Snape you...."

When I finished the chapter "Flight of the Prnice" I started thinking that Snape is still a good guy and here is why:

1. Dumbledore would never plead for someone to save him. He is one of the wizards that will not take the cowardly way out, like Wormtail did.

2. I believe that the potion he drank was some kind of potion that seemed to be weaking Dumbledore and would eventually kill him. If you went out hunting and injured an animal, but didn't kill, what hould you do? The honorable thing to do is put it out of his misery, and sadly, that is what Snape did. Also, Snape is an accomplished Legilimens and he probably read Dumbledore's mind and it was telling him to kill him.

3. I also do believe that there is more to the arguement that Hagrid overhead between Dumbledore and Snape. Like most wise people, they can sense when their end is near, and perhaps Dumbledore was telling Snape that if ever a situaution arose, he wanted Snape to kill him.

4. A quote from the book, page 604 reads: "'DON'T-' screamed Snape, and his face was suddenly demented, inhuman, as though he was in as much pain as the yelping, howling dog stuck in the durning house behind them- 'CALL ME A COWARD.'" By the sounds of this quote, it sounds like Snape was in pain because he had to kill the only person that ever trusted him.

Sorry in advance if this "idea" has been advanced by a million readers already. I'll make it quick.

I think most people have always assumed that Dumbledore would have to sacrifice himself to save Harry/overthrow Voldemort. What we didn't know was how/when he was going to make the sacrifice. I think in the HBP, he made it willingly. He knew Draco's plan, and when that failed he asked Snape to do it and Snape did because he knows a lot about the big picture and is loyal to Dumbledore.

I still think Snape is good. He simply has a loyalty to Draco because he cares about him as a teacher and mentor. I also think he's the only other faculty member/adult that knows the whole story and will play a big role in helping Harry in Book 7 and filling in the gaps in Harry's history. McGonagall didn't seem to know very much, so I don't think DD confided in her half of what he confided in Snape.

MOD EDIT : Hi and welcome to the forums!! Please take the time to read the rules before you post again. You aren't allowed to double post. If you want to add/edit something, use the "Edit" button at the top right of your post instead. I've deleted your second post, it said:

Oh, and one other tiny thing. Perhaps Snape was angry with Harry for calling him a coward because Snape has shown nothing but bravery in his willingness to defend and protect Harry. Snape is angry because Harry is ignorant of the magnitude of the acts Snape has taken to protect Harry.

he's oviously betraying Dumbledore and the Order. they trusted him but they had no idea he would turn over and take voldemorts side, so he's betraying order and dumbledore and they DID trust him

Ninalvesharry did you ever stop to think that maybe Snape did it because he had to. This theory may change your mind and everyone else please forgive me for posting this again.

i think that Snape did but didn't betray DD. Snape must have known about Draco's plan to attack the school. i know in the book that it says Draco was thought ocluemency by Bellatrix, but do we really think that if Harry couldn't stop Snape that Draco could. Especially sense we know that was mentally weak because he was crying and telling Moaning Myrtle everything in the bathroom. We also know that Draco could feel Snapes presenes in his mind because when they were along in that room Dradc told Snape to stop reading his mind. Then Snape says i see that Bellatrix has been teaching you ocluemency. So Snape must have got into Draco's mind. Then later on in the book it is said that Snape and DD get into an arguement. i'm let to believe that they were argueing about why Snape wouldn't tell DD about Draco's plan. I also think in that same arguement Snape told DD that he took an Unbreakable Vow with Narsicca. That is what probably made DD so angry with Snape. It is also possible later on in that conversation DD tells Snape that Snape should not break his Vow with Narsicca even if he was to kill DD himself. DD would have said that Snape was to important to the Order and that Harry could learn more about the Dark Lord and what his weaknesses are from Snape than he could form DD. So Snape would have then gotten angry and would have tried to get DD to change his mind, but of course DD knew it was the only that he could insure that Harry got proper training before he takes on the Dark Lord. What if DD made Snape take and Unbreakable Vow with him that if he (DD) were to die that Snape would do everything that he could without blowing his cover to help Harry defeat the Dark Lord? So when Harry and Snape were fighting Snape gave Harry so good advice about how to attack a strong Dark wizard ( Voldemort). Now lets go back to when the Death Eaters attacked the school. We know that Snape was in his room in the doungeons. Was this Snape's atempt to try and avoid his Vow with Narsicca, because if he didn't know when there would be an attack Snape thought he could get out of the Vow. Then we know that professor Flitwick came down to the dugeons and told Snape what was going o Then Snape did not have a choice he had to go and fullfil both his Vows.So he Knocked out Flitwick because he knew that Hermione and Luna were outside his door. This shows that Snape really didn't want to do what he was about to do. In sparing Hermione and Luna i think that he was trying to show that he didn't not want to do what he was about to do ( kill DD). Lets face it if he had really turned he would have killed Flitwick, Luna, and Hermione. So when he reached were DD and the Death Eaters were DD saw that Snape didn't want to kill him (DD) so he pleaded with Snape to complete both Vows. DD knew that if one of the other Death Eaters killed him before Snape did then both he (DD) and Snape would have died, because Snape would have broken his Vow with DD and Narsicca. So DD reminded Snape much in the same way he did with aunt Petunia when he said "remeber my last". So he said "Severus...Plaese." to remind Snape of what was at stake,because in that moment everything was at stake both thier futures, Harry's future, and the entire wizarding worlds future. So Snape did what he had to insure that must of those futures remained bright. Also DD knew that after Snape had killed him he would be the second most wanted wizard. So he couldn't stay at Spinners End and he would be spending more time around Voldemort. More time to plot against him, more time to find his weakness,and more time to find out what his Horcruxes are and where they are hidden.

MOD EDIT (QQS): Please don't double post, it's against the rules. Just use the edit button at the top of your post. I've pasted your second post below, but please be more careful in the future.Thanks, Mason.

Sorry if i soud in anyway rude. I do not me to offend you (Ninalvesherry) in anyway.

MOD EDIT (ashleigh07): Another thing, could you please break your thoughts/points into paragraphs next time? Makes your posts that much easier to read. Thanks.

i think snape is a good guy because to me when i was reading it, it seemed like dumbledore knew about there unbreakable vow, and he didnt want snape or draco hurt, so i think he toild snape that if it was necessary to kill him......


then again its just my suggestion

Sigh...
I know I'm becoming really annoying here, posting the same arguments over and over again.

First, I want to clarify that I dislike Snape.
Now on to the real purpose of my post.

I really believe that Snape did not betray Dumbledore.

I don't want to repeat arguments which have already been posted infinitely many times so I will just ask a question to those who are firm in their belief that Snape did betray the Order:

In book 5, why did Snape alert the Order that Harry was in the Department of Mysteries?
By doing so, he jeopardized the aim of Voldemort to get his hands on the prophecy. Surely, if he was on Voldy's side, he could have just left the Order uninformed and thereby assuring that the Death Eaters would acquire the prophecy. Voldemort valued that prophecy much and no loyal Death Eater would want the Order messing around when they're doing such an important mission.

PLEASE ANSWER MY QUESTION

I am going to throw out the craziest theory that has ever come into my head. But what if EVERYTHING was planned, i mean Snape telling Voldemort part of the prophecy, so Voldemort could eventually be defeated, and which resulted in the Potters murders, and both dumbeldore and snape have been in on it. Which would give a plausible explanation about why Dumbeldore trusts Snape so much. But they started the plot from the beginning just so they could bring down Voldemort, again, this is a WILD idea, but who knows maybe it has a little truth.

This is an excellent link for these who don't see any strange things in Dumbledore's murder. There are pointed clues with quotes from HP books:
http://www.dumbledoreisnotdead.com/dumbledoreclues.html

Anyway: I was thinking and thinking about it and I finally found a thing which in my opinion proves that Dumbledore allowed Death Eaters to go into the castle (and to kill him, but after reading the stuff in the link I'm no longer 100% sure that Dumbledore's really dead!).

I think Dumbledore KNEW about Rosmerta's being under Imperius curse. Tell me why would Dumbledore go and disapparate near her place if he could disapparate after they went of of Hogwarts?

He wanted to allow Draco and Death Eaters to come into the castle.

And I can tell you there are many unexplained things which happened: Dumbledore's body behaved strange jumping up after Avada Kedavra, normally this body simply fell down dead,The Phoenix singing (he was singing while healing if I remember right), where was Dumbledore's wand after his death and why Hagrid was holding a covered Dumbledore's body in his hands.

OK, Rowling said about Snape: "What do you think?". And I never thought he's a pure evil man, no... I thought he's rather unhappy, very clever man, and now I think he always felt unappreciated because he works "in disguise" and people hate him. His hatred for Harry was always understandable for me, because after reading 5 part of HP books, I thought there was something between Snape and Lily.

Snape, as a man full of contrasts, could feel attracted by Lily even though he called her Mudblood- she was clever, he could appreciate it, couldn't he? And James could be his biggest enemy and rival...

I think Snape is still a good guy. It is very important to realize that J.K. specifically mentioned Snape and DD looking each other in the eyes. Both DD and Snape could practice leg. I think that DD wanted Snape to kill him for whatever reason. Maybe DD was dyeing already and knew it. Perhaps the look of hatred and disgust on Snapes face was in response to what DD was asking him to do, not an actual emotion against DD. I think this is why Snape got so upset at Harry when Harry called him a coward. I think that Harry will find out too late that Snape was on his side, even if obscurely.

unfortunately, i am sure that dumbledore is dead. for me there was 2 solid reasons:

1) Dumbledore's portrait appeared in the head's office. If he hadn't died, why would his portrait have appeared? The portraits in the office are of the deceased headmasters, which now includes Dumbledore.

2) Once Snape killed him, Harry was no longer imobilized. What other reason could there be for that except that the one who cast the spell was dead? (as Harry said in the book)


as for snape's loyalty, i can see the evidence for either side. The obvious answer would be that he is really loyal to Voldemort, but the obvious isn't always right. I am more inclined to believe that Snape is still on the right side, basically because I do not want Dumbledore to have died because of his own mistake.

that's just what i was thinking, anyway.

Dumbledore is dead. If Snape had failed to kill him for any reason, Snape would have died for failing to fulfill his vow to Draco’s Mom. This evidence is enough by itself. Dumbledore’s portrait is another heavyweight bit of evidence.

I think that the entire power-plot line of the sixth book is neutered, eviscerated, if Dumbledore’s death was faked. “Yes, the great Harry Potter series, where everything bad that happens doesn’t really happen in the story but are all faked so that nothing bad every really happens…”

Rolling has already decided whether or not Dumbledore is coming back. I would be stunned if she brought him as a regular living wizard.

I think we can be certain that Snape and Dumbledore had a silent conversation via legilimens before Snape killed Dumbledore.

Snape may have been disgusted with his circumstances, disgusted with being forced to kill Dumbldeore, and still very much mean to kill Dumbledore, because it was his duty, and he himself would die if he did not perform the curse.

So, I do not think that Snape had to hate Dumbledore in order to perform the AK curse on him.

Maybe, Dumbledore insulted Snape’s mother, or called Snape a coward, to make it easier for Snape to muster the necessary malfeasance to do the deed…  LOL

Oh, I also am very sure that Dumbledore was dying anyway, from the poison in the cave. No matter what Draco or Snape did, Dumbledore was going bye-bye… If the poison didn’t; kill him, one fo the other death-eaters would have.

Hello-
I think that Snape did betray Dumbldore. At the scene in the beginning it wasn't clear whether Snape was on Dumbledore's side or the Dark Lord. Now I think that it becomes very much clear when he kills Dumbledore. It said that it sounded as though Dumbledore was afraid. Dumbledore put MUCH trust into the hands of Snape and that was why he died. That was Dumbledore's weakness.
Now, Snape has agreed to protect Draco and that is why he killed Dumbledore, because that was his task.

Sure DD may have put too much trust into Snape.. but throughout the entire series, DD is shown as having way more insight than anyone else. Do you think he would not have seen this? DD is known for always being ready... do you think he could not have planned this all? I am pretty much convinced that Snape did not betray DD or the Order. For all we know, DD and Snape could have made a pact long ago....

Well mayby You've right Rojaneer that could be the plan of Dumbledore. But Snape promised Draco's mather to help her son complete the mission. If he would not help he could die too. No, Snape betray Dumbledore. Dumbledore was only a human, and he mades mistakes.

I am of two minds concerning Snape's murder of Dumbledore.

Mind 1: Snape is evil, and Dumbledore's trust was tragically, foolishly misplaced. I have never liked Snape, and this is my knee-jerk reaction to his murder of Dumbledore. There are, of course, holes in this theory. However, Dumbledore is dead and Snape did kill him.

Mind 2: Based on the tone of the books and Dumbledore's trust of Snape, I believe it is entirely possible that Dumbledore sacrificed himself to the cause and that Snape was acting on a contingency protocol ordered by Dumbledore himself. Specifically, if ever in the situation where Snape was forced to openly choose sides in front of other Death Eaters, he would have to act as any true Death Eater and do what is required to keep him deeply entrenched with Voldemort.

Dumbledore may have viewed Snape's insider's track on Voldemort as worth more than his own life. It is a difficult proposition because I do not get the impression that Voldemort gives anyone his full confidence or even enough knowledge of his plans to be too greatly endangered by a traitor within the Death Eaters. I get this impression from comments made by Dumbledore himself. I believe this may be the case based on several facts. Dumbledore knew roughly what Malfoy was up to in the castle and perhaps he and Snape had argued over Dumbledore's self-sacrificing contingency plan if the Death Eaters gained access to the castle. Perhaps that is what Hagrid overheard. It would not have been too overtly dangerous to Dumbledore to agree to the contingency plan because he admittedly did not believe Malfoy would succeed. This would also explain why Snape did not kill Harry and instead ran. Snape was able to block Harry's curses with ease, and certainly had the opportunity to kill him even in his retreat. (I realize this could also be because he was ordered not to kill Harry- that honor is reserved for the Dark Lord himself).

These are just a few quick thoughts, but I believe Snape will remain a dangerous character for the final novel. It is my sincerest hope that Dumbledore's death will be avenged.

There is so much too consider on this topic... I really enjoy the idea of Snape working on Dumbledore's orders, meaning that SS didn't have a choice but to kill Dumbledore. Sad as it is, and the fact that I don't even like Snape, I still think he is loyal to the Order... Or loyal to himself... I don't think he holds Voldy in high regard anymore... I think he respects the dark lords power... but doesn't want to be a DE..

JKR just keeps making our lives more difficult! But speculation is always entertaining.

--Shannon

I agree with a lot of ppl that Snape killed DD because DD made him so that Snape could continue his role as a spy to help Harry.

Except in Chapter two, when Snape says ... [my info] led to the recent capture and murder of Emmeline Vance, and it certainly helped dispose of Sirius Black...

So really I don't know who Snape really betrayed...

I don't beleive the Snape betrayed the Order or Dumbledore. He was acting on Dumbledore's orders to "kill" him.

What did DD know about Snape that created his trust? Since love seems to be the power that can overcome Voldemort, I believe it was Snape's love for Lily that turned him to good following James and Lily's deaths after Snape revealed the prophecy to Voldemort. That love is the reason DD trusts Snape. That love for Lily is another reason Snape hated James Potter so much.

And, no, I don't believe DD is dead either, its all part of DD's plan. Recall Bellatrix told Harry in OotP that you have to mean to kill someone for the unforgiveable curse to work. Also recall that the Harry thought he saw a phoenix flying "joyfully" into the air when fire consumed DD body and a phoenix is DD's patronus. (For examples, recall, Obi-wan's "death" in Star Wars and Gandalf's "death" in Lord of the Rings!)

DD could not tell his plan to the other members of the OotP for fear that it would leak out if they are ever captured. Snape is accomplished in Occulimens (sp?) and can hide his knowledge from Voldemort. Plus the belief of everyone that Snape murdered DD will only support Snape's cover while he continues to spy on Voldemort and report back to DD. How DD gets that information to Harry remains to be seen.

Just my 2 cents.

Here's something to think about: Dumbledore injured his hand destroying the horcrux in the ring. He tells Harry that if it wasn't for Snape's help at that time, the curse would have killed him not just blackened his hand.

Now when Snape helped him, he would have found out about the horcruxes. DD would have to tell him what he was dealing with in order for Snape to be of any help. If DD was weak at that time and he had found out about Voldemort's immortality secret why wouldn't Snape kill him?

Snape wouldn't wait to give Draco a chance if he realized that his master's life was at stake. And he also knew that if he let DD live, DD would tell Harry about horcruxes.

Once again, Snape has the perfect opportunity and doesn't take it.

I, along with many of you, believe that a) Sadly, Dumbledor is indeed dead--his portait appeared on the wall on the office and the spell he put on Harry lifted. I also believe that no matter what a ginormous prat Snape is, he did not betray Dumbledor.

Yes, DD once said that he was a man and had made mistakes. But I find it hard to believe that Snape could have tricked Dumbledor for 15 years and remain loyal to Voldemort. For some reason, which I hope we will find out, Dumbledor trusted Snape more than everyone else thought he should. But I don't think Dumbledor would have let Snape in the Order if he had even the slightest suspicion that Snape was still loyal to Voldemort. Plus, when they formed the DA in book 5 Hermione was able to put a spell on that list so that if someone were to betray the group, they would know it. I would think that the Order of the Phoenix would have even more protection to insure the information and plans that it had.

I agree with many that it seems that the conversation Hagrid told Harry about was indeed about Snape having to kill Dumbledor if the time came and continue to pretend that he was stilll a loyal Death Eater. I also agree that Dumbledor would never beg for his life, that his pleading was for Snape to do what Dumbledor told him to do. That hate on Snape's face may have been anger for being put in the situation he was in and anger that DD was making him do this.

The shock that the other DD members felt when they found out what had happend just shows that this plan was only between DD and Snape. And if the other members knew what DD had asked of Snape, natuarally they would have protested and it would be dangerous if they knew that Snape was actually still loyal to the DD because that could mess up this whole plan of Snape acting like he is loyal to Voldemort.

Also, another reason I think DD had an idea of what might happen is that he kept talling Harry that Harry's life was much more important that his. He warned Harry that if need be Harry should save himself. I think DD knew that this request went beyond the adventure they were about to take.

So, as much as I woud like Harry to find Snape and Avada Kedavra his butt, I think ultimately Snape never betrayed DD or the Order and only did what DD asked him to do.

[COLOR=blue]Hello everybody!

I'm new here and just like you I love Harry Potter!
I'm french so excuse my bad english!
And if I do something wrong in the forum I didn't mean to: I'm not used to this kind of forum! So please tell me!!

As far as I'm concerned, I think Snape is a traitor because:

1. He can't (and nobobody can) fool He Who Must Be Name: Snape is not powerful enough!!

2. He swore to protect Malefoy and to help him to finish his mission for the Dark Lord (and Snape will die if he doesn't)

3. Dumbledore trust people too easily... even if he is a clever man (maybe it's because of his old age lol ).

4. And finally, Snape does LOVE the Dark Arts and he was a Death Eater... Dumbledore said he regrets but I'm not sure he really does!
Moreover the explanations he gave to Bellatrix in the 6th book are very persuasive, aren't they?

But, I believe that Dumbledore knows everything that happens in the school and I don't know how Snape manage to fool him!!
He's not powerful enough to lie to Dumbeldore too!


Maybe I'm wrong but... I don't like Snape and I'll not be surprised if he does betrayed Dumbledore and the Order...

Here's my take on the goings-on:

First of all, Dumbledore is (as Entertainment Weekly put it so eloquently) dead as a Dumbledornail. I know, as horrible as it seems, I don't think this is the last we'll see of him. Perhaps Rowling will pull a "if you kill me I'll come back with unimaginable powers" on us (a la Obi-Wan!)? Who knows, but I will suspect that there will be *some* way for communication between the now dead Dumbledore and the magically capable. It probably will not be direct.

That said, back to the matter at hand. Jeer at me as you will, since the beginning, I've found Snape to be one of the most captivatingly complex characters in the series. Snape is not bad (in a sense). However, saying that, he is also not good. He's a bit of both, and mixes with stuff on both sides. As was observed before, he loves the Dark Arts. But, from what I'm seeing, he isn't all that fond of Lord Voldemort. He believes that the destruction of Voldemort is needed, for there is an unbalance (for lack of a better word) between the two obvious forces: Good and Evil.

And THAT, my friends, is why he is loyal, for the most part, to the Order. It's the idea, not the people. Really, Snape generally dislikes the folks involved with the Order, but that doesn't mean he's not loyal to it.

When he made the Unbreakable Vow with Narcissa, I believe he did that mainly to further his own objectives. That was to watch out for Draco. And if that included killing Dumbledore, then so be it. He also had to prove to Bellatrix that he was still loyal to Voldemort. She already had her doubts, but the whole Unbreakable Vow thing silenced them for the most part. Refusing to do so would have seemed fishy, and right then and there, Snape would lose all leverage.

Okay, now during the tower scene, Dumbledore was a goner as soon as Draco disarmed him (but not before DD froze Harry -- I wonder why? Hm). And when the DEs stepped in, the deal was sealed. When Snape entered, I am not entirely sure that he knew they were going to be there already. And he most certainly did not know that Harry was present, frozen and invisible in the corner. Everything in that scene just seemed really odd. Snape didn't even say anything when he killed Dumbledore. Now, if he was truly bad through and through, don't you think he might haved gloated over his successes-- you know.. having *fooled* outright for MANY YEARS the most powerful wizard alive? Instead he just killed him. Odd, no? And why was Dumbledore pleading? That seems grossly out of his character. There has to be a reason.

Continuing on to the scene where Snape is running from Harry (who's in a mad fit of rage). A few odd things occured in his scene. Was he giving Harry pointers on how to duel? Is it a common practice to advise your enemies on how to fight? I didn't think so. And what's with Snape's enraged reaction to having been called a coward? This is another clue and, I think, will turn out to be incredibly important.

Ultimately, Snape is still loyal to the Order's purpose. But he is not good, nor should he be. Now he is as close as ever to Voldemort and will be in a prime position to "help" Harry destroy him. And I think he will figure out new, clever ways to get information to both Harry and the Order, and they won't even realize where it's coming from.

By the way, I think that the revelation that the Half-Blood Prince was Snape was pure brilliance. Snape was a very clever child. This, I believe, is the quality that Harry unfortunately lacks. Anybody else realize this?

This might sound weird, but remember what Dumbledore always said. He said that death is not to be feared. He said that Voldemart belives that the way to destroy a man is by killing him, and Dumbledore disagreed. He did so at many occasions, especially in his duel with LV in Book 5. So maybe its all part of a plan. I know Dulbledore has spoken many wise things, and most of them have turned out to be true. Also his trust on Snape had not flatered at all. He trusted him 200% even when no one else did. There is something we dont know, that must have held that trust, and like DD himself said, he will only be truly gone, when none seek his aid. All this makes me think that Snape really is on the good side. Then again the way Dumbledore was pleading was scary. I guess nothing is for certain till the book comes out. I cant belive i will have to go on like this for 2 more years.

I wish to offer one more possibility. Having recently reread all of the earlier books, I am convinced that Snape is loyal to Dumbledore. It also appears that Snape is loyal to Dumbledore throughout much of the sixth book. Snape's aid in Dumbledore's capture of the ring horcrux is excellent proof of this loyalty. Snape's actions and attitudes in his final appearance seemed very different than the Snape I'm familiar with. I was particularly struck by how skilled Snape was at dueling. He easily countered Harry's every move when, one year earlier, Harry had bested Bellatrix Lestrange, a skilled Death Eater who deafeated several Aurors and killed Sirius Black. Therefore, it is likely that Snape was dueling better than any wizard excluding Lord Voldemort and Dumbledore. It seems possible that Snape was, at the time of his final appearance, under the Imperious Curse of Lord Voldemort himself.

Perhaps Lord Voldemort was able to Legilimens himself information of Snape's aid to Dumbledore and the ring. Upon which he utilized the Imperious Curse. Using Snape was, after all, the best way to kill Dumbledore. Dumbledore's pleading could have been trying to reach Snape underneath the Imperious Curse. Perhaps Lord Voldemort is the Half-Blood Prince. The book is mentioned to be fifty years old, Lord Voldemort was in his sixth year at Hogwarts 54 years earier than the events this sixth book. And who but Lord Voldemort would have the nerve to declare himself a prince. I have trouble believing that Snape was so skilled as to author those footnotes.

There are, of course, flaws in this plan. Could Lord Voldemort have had Snape react quickly enough to block Harry's spells? We don't know if the Imperious curse has a reaction time but Harry's experiences with it in book four seem to indicate a delay between the order and the action. Furthermore, why wouldn't Lord Voldemort kill Harry through Snape? Perhaps he has more plans for this boy's future, or he takes the Prophecy very literally. Comments on this strange idea are appreciated.

ok guys many of you are forgetting many things.
aku chi i think it was, snape is very skilled in occlumency and he is the half blood prince, the book was a hand me down from his mother whose maden name was prince so he obvilousely was the half blood prince


thats just one thing. but i personly agree with whoever said he is good and bad. he is loyal to both sides but more loyal to DD. he gave voldemort information on the order. yet he also didnt tell voldemort that DD had destoryd a horcrux. and when he was loking after malfoy he was being loyal to both sides at once. and yes i only think he vowd to kill DD because he was on the spot
thats just me though...

I don't really think Snape knows about the HOrcruxes. I thought that what Snape did to save DD when he destroyed the ring was simply take care of him, maybe give him some potion specially made for him, and helping him not die. Which obviously he did.
JediGSD, I think that your post simply summarised everything taht's been said to support the idea of Snape not being all bad, and I agree with everything you've said.

[/B][B] I have always been a Snape supporter, but even I was a little shocked when he killed Dumbledore. At first I though 'betrayal!!!' but then I got to thinking. Snape wasn't going against DD, he was following his orders. Here are my reasons, most of which have already been covered by all of you, but are my view none the less.:
1.DD would NEVER beg for his life.
2.DD trusted Snape fully and was unwavering in defending Snape. DD was not a stupid man, nor was he a fool, and if Rowling makes it so Snape was bad all along, she would be calling DD both of these things. That, I do not believe. DD was a brilliant wizard. He knew what he was doing.
3.As quoted by Angelnomoon- "Snape is not new to Unforgiveables. And once you really do one you can't ever take it back.
I view the fact that Snape prevented Harry from doing one was to protect him in a way from putting his feet into "that" pond."
I think Snape has done countless things to help Harry, without admitting it of course. Even as Harry was chasing him, he gave him advice to do nonverbal spells and such. He has protected Harry from Quirrel, Malfoy, and even fellow Death Eaters. In book six he stopped a DE from hurting Harry, saying it was "The Dark Lord's Orders" or something like that. Come on!
4.Dumbledore trusted him, and that's good enough for me.
I have more, but I don't have a lot of time. So, there it is. Snape=good, if a hesitant good. I'm Snape's man to the very end!

And wait, is Harry not going to school next year?!

There’s something new I noticed!

Dumbledore owes his life to Snape!!!

"Pettigrew owes his life to you"

"When one wizard saves another wizard's life, it creates a certain bond between them..."

I don’t want to repeat the other facts that prove, that DD sacrificed himself in order to save Draco's soul, the lives of his family members and the life and the most valuable position Snape has.
He may has been dying, anyway (the blackened hand and the potion from the cave).

But that doesn’t mean that I think Snape is "good", only because he fights on the right side!

Snape is evil and that’s why he has been doomed to kill DD. Dumbledore would have never asked some noble and pure- soul person to commit such a thing. He values the whole soul beyond all, that’s why he needs Snape, because his soul has already been damaged (at least once).

We all would like to hear Snape is still a good guy, despite what he did, but i dont think he is!!
He KILLED Dumbledore! And i would be very surprised if he had done that to impress Malfoy, or something.. He has just been a Death Eater during all these last years, maybe Voldemort made him to do some things, but i think he is really happy being his supporter.
The only thing that didnt fit so well was the fact that Snape saved Harry in his first year, but i supose he did that because of James saving his life when thay were young..

You all made valid points but here are a few of my own:

1) If some one were about to kill you, wouldn't you plead for your life? Plus, the fact that DD pleaded meant that at that exact moment he realized Snape wanted to kill him and it wasn't planned. I think DD figured out what conspiracy had just happened. DD was trying to convince Draco not to kill him as if he planned on personally assisting Draco into hiding afterward. He could not do this if Snape immediately killed him after.

2) Anger or sadness at the prospect of killing DD does not equal a look of hatred. Hatred is hatred, one of the purest emotions we have, and only hatred can make an unforgivable successful. that's why harry can't do it.

3) Dumbledore. is. not. perfect. He messed up majorly in book five. In harry's younger years, there were heros that were infallible and villains who were pure evil. JK is making the world less black and white as harry becomes an adult. Now we must see that DD, though wise, did have a fatal downfall: being too trusting. and JK seems like that is a "good" people characteristic that dark wizards can use against them.

4) Snape was a double agent. Who do you think its easier to fool? DD or LV? The dark evil narcissistic lord voldemort who kills anyone who comes close to betraying him and had snape as most loyal servert or DD the kindly and wise but old wizard?

5) If you look closely the fight that Snape and DD had alludes more to DD being angry at Snape for not investigating Malfoy/the slytherins enough. which makes sense.

6) Snape calling himself the half-blood prince is like Tom Riddle calling himself LV and its like he's trying to show the connection. i think he aspires to greatness like that of lv. anyway there must be greater significance to the title than we realize.

7) There is just something to Snape taking the DADA position now. Maybe it represents him going to the other side. DD said that the DADA teacher usually gets hurt because Voldemort always wanted that position. And yet nothing happened to Snape...

Ultimately, I think Snape hates everyone. I think he's only partially loyal to both sides, although he's more tempted to the darker side. the fact that he didnt kill harry means either that he wants harry to defeat LV or that he knows LV is gonna want to kill harry himself. Obviously the ultimate showdown is gonnabe bewteen LV and harry. Lv wants it that way.

But people, can you REALLY see DD just preparing to die? Killed by another teacher? With Hogwarts shutting down as the result? And the Wizarding world left without the only person LV feared? Didn't Snape's unbreakable vow seem like a last minute decision? He might not be entirely evil, he may regret what he did but I DOUBT DD put him up to it. I think he would have done anything he could to live. I think Harry's getting really smart and his instincts were right.

But i must wonder. in book 2 when snape protectedharry because he owed lily a favor, what was that favor????

What is the significance of Snape calling himself the HBP? And the similarity of his background to LV? (Wizard mother, Muggle father)?

If DD was smart enough to not trust LV why did he trust Snape? i think maybe its because voldermort is pure evil whereas snape borderline

Why did snape finally get DADA?

Why did he coach Harry?

Anyone got any ideas?

People keep thinking that one has to be dead for their pictures to start moving and stuff, like when they say that Dumbeldore is one the wall of dead headmasters and headmistresses, but that isnt true, pictures move even when they are alive. For example in the third book when Ron's family won a trip to Egypt, i remember harry saw ron waving back at him and same with the posters that were put up when Sirius escaped from Azkaban, he was still alive wasnt he? So you cant really use the fact the he we was on the wall of dead headmasters as an excuse and that he was still "slumbering", because a house elf could have put it their.

I believe Dumbledore is still alive. Dumbledore and Snape staged the whole thing to look as if he ws dead. Then him and Snape would take down Voldermort with Harry's help. I believe Snape is still a good guy, I mean he is to Hot to be a bad guy.

Ah...but you're forgetting the Unbreakable Vow.

The only chink in this piece of evidence for Dumbledore being truly dead is that Jk never actually comes out an says that Malfoy's mission was to kill Dumbledore.

However, if, as I believe it was, then Snape had to have killed Dumbledore, or else he would have died.The Death Eaters were thrown out of the castle without doing anything but destroying a few statutes and...Snape killing Dumbledore. Why didn't Snape die? Did he really complete Malfoy's task? He must have.

And Malfoy's task could not have been to stage Dumbledore's death. What point could Voldemort have in that?

I'm sorry you guys, but I think the DD is absolutely, positively, stone dead as a door nail.

I believe that snape is on the good side.... if you think about it Dumbledore was willing to kill himself for Harry... he made Harry make him keep drinking the potion with the Horcrux even if he was screaming. the same thing with snape... he told him not to break his vow with narcissa (thanks to another poster for giving me this info ) even if it meant killing him.... DD was ready to give his life for Harry's sake and now i just so happens he must have...and so snape was obeying DD when he killed him... i must say that you guys have changed my mind when placing your posts i now truly beleive snape is not on their side.....

Snape is on Dumbeldore's side, he quickly swore the unbreakable vow, knowing dumbeldore would not harm him, it the fourth book he was told" you know what you have to do" that was dumb. saying, 'Kill me whenever you're ready', dumbeldore could have stopped snape if he wanted to, the conversation Hagrid overheard, all signs lead up to one conclusion, Dumbeldore knew harry would not go after Voldemort unless all of his protectors( parents, sirius, Dumbeldore) were gone, just read how harry felt at Dumbeldore's funeral, just what Dumbeldore wanted!

i have reasons to believe that snape is both good and evil. the second chapter was very convincing in having snape be evil, but because of the unbreakable vow, snape had to kill dumbledore. so, it could tilt either way.

dumbledore could be a horcrux..?

MOD EDIT: Errm...Are you sure this is in the right thread? Here would be a good place to try talking about that. Also, one liners are not allowed. Please review the rules. Thanks, Mason.

I do not know if anybody has noticed but Snape had not yet earned the trust of his fellow death eaters. In Ch 2 "Before I answer you-- oh yes, Bellatrix, I am going to answer! You can carry my words back to the others who whisper behind my back, and carry false tales of my treachery to the Dark Lord!" His current situation why the Death Eaters mirrors his situation with the Order of the Phoenix. He is trying to prove his allegence to both groups, and while the leaders (Voldemort and Dumbledore) both seem to trust him, the other members have doubts. His action at the end of the book are troubling at best, but they leave multiple interpretations, which many have been already discussed.
1 Snape was acting in order to pledge his allegence to the Dark Lord. He is finally moving out into the open and prove his doubters wrong once and for all. He kills DD with three witnesses there for solidifying his position as a servent of Voldemort.
2. Snape kills DD like many of you have already said, to continue working as a spy for the Order of the Phoenix. My only problem is how can he be benifitial to the Order if they all now believe him to be a trader. He will be attacked on sight, and even Harry has pledged to avenge DD death by destroying Snape. He gains no advantage to the order by killing DD. Still there is the question of why he did not take advantage of a wandless Harry, and why did he seem to give Harry advice while Harry was trying to stop him from escaping? Oh the tangles webs JK weaves.
Personally, not that it matters much, I can't think Snape killed DD to ultimitly prove he is on the side of the Order. I don't think he ever was on the good side, but I also don't think he was a death eater. Snape owe's James his life because James saved Snape at school. Snape may not like Harry and hate his father, but there are some bonds that go beyond the realm of like and dislike. I think that Snape was truly sorry that his actions caused the deaths of Harry's parents. James saved his life, and he was the cause of James' death. He now seems destined to help Harry defeat Voldemort once and for all. As weird as it may seem, the only was for Harry to stop Voldemort is for him to master the power to "keep his mouth shut and his mind closed" as Snape reminded him. The proof is the ease at which an acomplished wizard, but a wizard that is not even close to Voldemorts level, was able to block Harry's attacks. Snape wants to bring Voldy down, and he knows that Harry is the only person that can end him forever.

Just my thoughts feel free to abuse them at your will

"but I also don't think he was a death eater."

Woops I mean I don't think he is working with the death eaters. He was clearly once a death eater and he realized what he got himself into and saw the consequences of his actions. Thus causing him to reconsider why he joined the death eaters, and ultimitaly causing his change of heart.

This character has been brilliantly written by JKR, we still have no idea who his true loyalty is too. only JKR has that knowlege.

In my opinion however Snape is on the side of the order of the phoenix. Snape and dumbledore have discussed what must be done for snape to continue undercover with voldemort. He carries it so convincingly as well, when he kills DD he has a twisted snarl written all over his face when he does it, this shows him appauled by what he is doing, but at the same time showing hatred towards DD which fooled the Death eaters that were on the tower and made them recoil from him. Dumbledore knows what must be done, and is pleading with snape to do what must be done, with the recent memory of their argument in the forest.

With regards their mini duel while the death eaters were on the run not only is Snape giving harry advice on the only way he will be able to use magic against voldemort, but he would have known that harry was "the chosen one" and not to hurt him, his overeaction was due to memories of harry's father, who probably called him a coward when he knew snape, and this bought bad memories to the front of snape's mind. Once he remebered what must be done, he left him on the ground and fled.

Snape has always shown he is willing to do dumbledore's will, but not be entirely keen about it, which is understandable, especially when he knew eventually he would have to kill dumbledore.