We've made it onto Thread #3! This is the place where you can discuss whether you think Snape is betraying Dumbledore and the Order of the Phoenix or Voldemort and the Death Eaters. All theories are welcome. If you would like to review the old conversation, you can view Thread #1 here and Thread #2 here.

Here was the last post in the old thread, made by king_linden:

Well again like I said, I believe that, that was what Dumbledore assigned to Snape to do. Because we know nothing about what Snape's task was, and I don't believe Rowling is the type to not give the specific information like that, everyone is wondering what it is. Or atleast they should be wondering. And another reason why I believe that Snape may still be working with the Order (but not in the way that they think, just kind of like, he'll help them... but in weird ways). What I mean is that... even at the end of the book, Snape is still helping Harry out telling him how to cause a hex/spell against a wizard, so that they can't block it. And I think Snape was trying to tell him that, the way if you try and use spells against Voldy is that you can't pronounce what you'll be doing, you'll have to do it, just by thinking it.

I read something that made me think along a different line here. What if, in essence, Snape did betray DD; but not how we think. What if DD's injured hand somehow made him...I don't know...evil or altered? Then, when Snape looked at him in a weakened state and saw evil there, he knew DD was already no more and killed him? Then, Snape would have indeed killed DD, but not the DD we know. Well, I know it is far reaching, but hey...got to look outside the box sometimes.

I personally am of two minds about Snape's betrayal. I think it's rather far-fetched to say that he did it because he saw that Dumbledore was evil. However, I think that he might have killed Dumbledore on the latter's orders, and the hatred on Snape's face was because he was set to actually carry out this task. The strongest evidence I have for this is purely character-driven: Dumbledore has never, ever, in the course of the books, begged (the instance in the cave notwithstanding, and I believe that the potion was a sort of poison). He certainly would never beg for his own life. I think it's possible that he was begging for Snape to sacrifice his morals for the cause, as it were.

However, I find it surprising that had this been the case Dumbledore might have done well to tell at least one other member of the Order. All the others believe Snape to be evil now: it's hardly as though he can act as a double-agent with the side he works for believeing him to have been a double-agent for the other side. Unless, of course, he was set with another, secret task. The only think I can think of is trying to find the other horcruxes to try to destroy them. But then again, that is speculation.

I would probably believe him to be loyal to Dumbledore had it not been for the second chapter of the book. There was something about the fact that something like that was written in the book instead of infered to later set a pall over the rest of the book, so that I couldn't quite believe that he was pretending when he spoke to Draco.

Well, he killed Dumblydorr didn't he? I mean think about it...who would kill Dumbledore if he wasn't evil? We all know that Dumbledore was the only wizard (or being) that Voldemort feared. I'm not sure why, but it is the truth. My only thought on this is that Snape is totally betraying the good side of the world. And I totally knew something like this would happen from the time I started reading them...three years ago. I figured that if Dumbledore's dead, Snape would have something to do with his death in the end. Boy did I call that or what?

ok here's my take on the whole deal. i think that snape is still good and heres why. First evidence is in book five when harry is stuck in umbridge's office and harry told snape that "he's got padfoot" as snape was passing by, and what did he do? he got the order to go down there resulting in voldamort being exposed, lucius and a few others going to jail, and all that happened to the order was black being killed.

In the 6th book... i think that snape killed dumbledore because it was the best outcome for the moment, because snape knew that a) dumbledore didn't fear death and didn't care to die. b) He had made the unbreakable oath so he could not fight against the death eaters and stop malfoy. c) by killing dumbledore himself he prevented the guilt that malfoy would have had and ensuring him a better future as dumbledore would have wanted. because come on, with all the death eaters there and dumbledore wandless his death was inevitable. and lastly d) killin dumbledore would secure his trust with the dark lord.

further evidence to this belief is the fact that hagrid had overheard a conversation between snape and dumbledore where snape had said something like "i dont think i could do something like that" which could possibly be refering to the fact that it might have come down to what it did.

Lastly snape seemed extremely bitter to be called a coward by harry, think about it, if he had to kill dumbledore against what he believed in, the last thing he would want to be called is a coward.

so i say snape, though twisted, is still on the good side.

i think that Snape did but didn't betray DD. Snape must have known about Draco's plan to attack the school. i know in the book that it says Draco was thought ocluemency by Bellatrix, but do we really think that if Harry couldn't stop Snape that Draco could. Especially sense we know that was mentally weak because he was crying and telling Moaning Myrtle everything in the bathroom. We also know that Draco could feel Snapes presenes in his mind because when they were along in that room Droco told Snape to stop reading his mind. Then Snape says i see that Bellatrix has been teaching you ocluemency. So Snape must have got into Draco's mind. Then later on in the book it is said that Snape and DD get into an arguement. i'm let to believe that thay were argueing about why Snape wouldn't tell DD about Draco's plan. I also think in that same arguement Snape told DD that he took an Unbreakable Vow with Narsicca. That is what probably made DD so angry with Snape. It is also possible later on in that conversation DD tells Snape that Snape should not break his Vow with Narsicca even if he was to kill DD himself. DD would have said that Snape was to important to the Order and that Harry could learn more about the Dark Lord and what his weaknesses are from Snape than he could form DD. So Snape would have then gotten angry and would have tried to get DD to change his mind, but of course DD knew it was the only that he could insure that Harry got proper training before he takes on the Dark Lord. What if DD made Snape take and Unbreakable Vow with him that if he (DD) were to die that Snape would do everything that he could without blowing his cover to help Harry defeat the Dark Lord? So when Harry and Snape were fighting Snape gave Harry so good advice about how to attack a strong Dark wizard ( Voldemort). Now lets go back to when the Death Eaters attacked the school. We know that Snape was in his room in the doungeons. Was this Snape's atempt to try and avoid his Vow with Narsicca, because if he didn't know when there would be an attack Sanpe thought he could get out of the Vow. Then we know that professor Flitwick came down to the dugeons and told Snape what was going o Then Snape did not have a choice he had to go and fullfil both his Vows.So he Knocked out Flitwick because he knew that Hermione and Luna were outside his door. This shows that Snape really didn't want to do what he was about to do. In sparing Hermione and Luna i think that he was trying to show that he didn't not want to do what he was about to do ( kill DD). Lets face it if he had really turned he would have killed Flitwick, Luna, and Hermione. So when he reached were DD and the Death Eaters were DD saw that Snape didn't want to kill him (DD) so he pleaded with Snape to complete both Vows. DD knew that if one of the other Death Eaters killed him before Snape did then both he (DD) and Snape would have died, because Snape would have broken his Vow with DD and Narsicca. So DD reminded Snape much in the same way he did with aunt Petunia when he said "remeber my last". So he said "Severus...Plaese." to remind Snape of what was at stake,because in that moment everything was at stake both thier futures, Harry's future, and the entire wizarding worlds future. So Snape did what he had to insure that must of those futures remained bright. Also DD knew that after Snape had killed him he would be the second most wanted wizard. So he couldn't stay at Spinners End and he would be spending more time aroud Voldemort. More time to plot against hm, more time to find his weakness,and more time to find out what his Horcruxes are and where they are hidden.

I still think (or hope) that Snape betrayed Death Eaters. Look how little he said before and after he killed Dumbledore: Draco was with him, I guess that he didn't want Draco to hear what he really wanted to say and even if he wanted to try to explain, he couldn't, with Draco and Death Eaters on his side .

It's 345am as I write this, and its my first post to the site, so forgive any misconceptions or mistakes I might have in my post.

Having just finished the book, my first reaction to the death was that Dumbledore had been wrong in where he put his trust, and maybe as he said, being cleverer than most results in larger mistakes than most. However, upon reflection, I am not quite sure that his trust in Snape, as completely Ironclad as it was, is necessarily misplaced.

As I think back on it, I am reminded of a theory I read regarding Judas' relationship to Jesus, in which the theory was put forward that Judas did not betray Jesus. Rather as his most loyal disciple, he was given the most difficult and unrewarding task of putting into place the the pieces that would lead to Jesus' crucifiction, and thus to his rebirth, an event that if it had not happened, would have left Christianity an unknown and rather small cult of Judaism. This task was given to most loyal and trustworthy of the disciples because it offered no reward, save eternal hatred by his brothers, and only he could be trusted to see it through.

Now, as this relates to Snape and Dumbledore. I think it is safe to say that Dumbledore did not fear death, nor would he hesitate to give his life if it started the chain of events that would eventually lead to Voldemort's death. Now Harry states clearly, that with Dumbledore's death, he has come the realization that with the loss of the shields that came in the form of his parents, Sirius(who Im not completely sure is dead), and Dumbledore, it is no longer simply completing a puzzle to find the solution as in the past, but rather a journey that he needs to take in order to revenge himself on Voldemort. Further, throughout the book, we see hints that Dumbledore is no longer the wizard he once was, and that he is no longer necessarily a match for Voldemort(an curse that he could sense was faster than his reaction time). Thus, it might be the case that this was his last service to Harry, the nudge that would force him into the realization that he needed to take a proactive and offensive role in the fight against Voldemort. He has shown him how Voldemort can be beaten, he has given him understanding of who voldemort "is", and now he uses the love that Harry has for him to force him onto the path he needs to complete. Thus Snape, as his most trusted disciple, is given the task of finishing Dumbledore's sacrifice, but even Snape is not sure, so he hesitates, and then is begged by Dumbledore "Severus.. please" to finish the task set before him, after all, is Dumbledore a man to plead for his life?


Anyway, as I said, its early, and this theory is obviously full of holes, most glaringly, the conversation overheard by Harry during the Christmas party, but I at least think its interesting.


EDIT: I see uprising got to it before I did, if not in a slightly different manner.

I think that Dumbledore was weaker, but still a strong man, and if he was able to stupefy Harry without words, he would be also able to stupefy Snape - Draco's hand was shaking, Dumbledore felt he didn't kill him. So he wanted Snape to enter and do something.

But why he wanted to talk to Snape after they went out of the cave? I guess he wanted Snape to cure him. And he told Harry that he wanted to see Snape when he saw the skull above Hogwarts, I guess Dumbledore knew what's happening, that Draco and Death Eaters are there to fullfill Voldemort's wish, and then he simply wanted Snape to kill him and become a more trusted Voldemort's servant.

Snape isn't that easy to judge and the only thing I know about him for sure is that:
1.He likes bullying his pupils, but does he bully everyone? No, he omits Slytherins. OK, he's a head of their house, but... Draco is connected to Death Eaters, he maybe has to pretend...
2. He had unhappy childhood, at least a bit, it's the thing Harry saw in the Pensieve. He was alone, a bit of outsider, interested in Dark Arts. He might be bitter and aggressive as a bullied non- handsome boy, and by bullying others as a teacher he may think he pays revenge.

And according to how James, Lupin, Sirius and Wormtail behaved- it wasn't glorious for Snape.

I think Snape's on Dumbledore's side. I guess this Judas- Jesus Christ theory may be correct, I've thought about it earlier... I suppose there must be something more in a relationship Dumbledore-Snape, he wasn't naive judging young Riddle, why should he be naive judging Snape?

I think that even though it looked bad, Snape is still (and always has been) faithfull to the order and to Dumbledore. It seems likely that if Dumbledore really did have a good reason to trust Snape, that trust remained till the end. I therefore think that Snape may have been under Dumbledores orders that if the necessity came, to act as he has done, and kill him.

What Snape could do when Bellatrix and Narcissa came to him and surprised him with this vow (I also think that, if he had known Voldmemort's plans towards Draco, he would have been able to know it before their visit). He HAD TO agree, if he didn't he wouldn't seem trustworthy for 2 women. He didn't seem happy to do this in my opinion. He hesitated.

Snape is still very loyal to Dumbledore. Dumbledore trusted him, although we have not found out why, we need to believe that he had his reasons.

In chapter 19: Hagrid tells Harry about the conversation that he overheard between Dumbledore and Snape

"Well - I just heard Snape sayin' Dumbledore took too much for granted an' maybe he - Snape - didn' wan' ter do it anymore -"

"Do what?"

"I dunno, Harry, it sounded like Snape was feelin' a bit overworked, tha's all - anyway, Dumbledore told him flat out he'd agreed ter do it an' that was all there was to it...."

Then Dumbledore is pleading with Snape. I know Dumbledore would never plead for his life so he was asking Snape to kill him (to follow his orders), the look of revulsion and hatred on his face when he did was just to keep up his role as a Death Eater.

Then when Harry goes to battle Snape:

"Blocked again and again and again until you learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed, Potter!

He was giving Harry the last little bit of advice he could because of the fact that he killed Dumbledore in front of four Death Eaters and Malfoy he's has to believe for the time being that he's on Voldemort's side. If he is caught he will be sent to Azkaban. Voldemort is using Occlumency against Harry so he can not see into his mind. We are told that Voldemort is a very good Legilimens too. Voldemort will surely try to read Harry's mind when he goes to fight him (which also brings around the fact why Snape was so cruel to him).

Snape also saved Harry's life, yet again, by telling the other Death Eater's:

"Have you forgotten your orders? Potter belongs to the Dark Lord - we are to leave him! Go! Go!"

Snape, however wicked and nasty he can be, is a good guy.

Hello all,
I know everyone has taken the death of dumbledore as a serious blow, but I for one dont believe that snape really killed him.and to support my point i have provided my explanation below.

1) Dumbledore trusted snape and has mentioned in one of the previous book that snape did eomthing at a great personal risk which brought about dumbledore to trust in snape. Now considering what we have learnt in HBP, snape comming back saying that he felt sad about Lily and James being killed is hardly anything a risky business is it.

2) When harry ran behind snape and malfoy and tried to curse snape, snape always deflected the curses.How hard would it have been to capture harry as well and disapperate. After all there was only hagrid accompanying harry, and hagrid is not good at doing magic. Snapes attempt if u see were never to injure harry although on loosing temper he gave the occassional blow or two.

So, why did the killing scene happen??

Dumbledore told malfoy that he knew that malfoy was plotting something terrible and yet he was trying to save malfoys life by letting him get on.As he had mentioned, if dumbledore had cornered malfoy before, voldermont would have killed malfoy or his family.Dumbledore was also aware of the unbreakable wow snape took the confirmation of which he might have got from the row with snape. So two lifes are at stake. Given the situation, my belief is that dumbledore did have a pact with snape that given such a situation, snape was to use the killing curse. As bellatrix mentioned and also did Barty crouch (impersonating Moody in goblet of fire), for using Killing curses or the illegal curses a person has to really mean them or else the opponent could safely walk away with as little as a nose bleed. Given this point, lets say snape did use the curse without meaning it, in that case the death eaters will see that dumbledore is dead.Since the rest of the order were not informed of this, they would also believe in this death giving voldermont a confirmation which otherwise he would have suspected somehow or the other. This now also gives dumbledore an additional weapon of working in secret.Given dumbledore is apparently out of the way, voldermont might try to attact more quickly and jepordising his chances.I also believe that dumbledore might die in book 7 but not giving harry a better chance to fight voldermont.Harry so far is not yet capable to take on voldermont alone. he still has a lot to learn and one year by himself or with the help of ron and hermionie will not be enough to learn things to match all the death eaters and voldermont.
Also the fact the dumbledore used a freezing charm on harry when harry was already invisible. Given the situation, dumbledore didnt have to use that to save harry. as harry at that point was invisible. My thoughts are that dumbledore knew malfoy plan and was expecting to meet malfoy.He however was suprised i think about the death eaters using the vanishing cabinet, so therefore might not have expected malfoy to be with a company later on. So if dumbledore was meeting malfoy alone, it would give dumbledore the perfect chance to talk malfoy into comming to the good side, which infact he was achieving before the other death eaters turned up. Had harry not been freezed out, then harry would have used a hex on malfoy and thus causing a hinderence in dumbledores plan of saving malfoy.
Another point is the fact that dumbledore went till hogsmede to disapperate while he could have equally done that by disapperating just outside the grounds of hogwarts, just like snape did. My reason is that dumbledore knew someone in hogmede was passing informaiton on events (as a result of the necklace turning out there), and therfore wanted that source to inform people that dumbledore was away for a while thereby luring malfoy to carry out his plan.Overall, it looks like dumbledore had planned most of what was happening that day other than maybe the suprised information about the deatheaters using the vanishing cabinet.
As to why dumbledore pleaded, my belief is that dumbledore was pleading for snape to use the false curse.Snape might be reluctant to use this, as there is risk of it turning out to be real, and also because he would put himself in a real dangerous position in terms of other people.

well these are my thoughts, and i am sure most people might not agree with it, but who knows who things might shape up in book 7.
regards
amthekkel

I want to aks you 1 thing: in HP book was said that James Potter saved Snape's life. Was it said when and why or not? Because it's important for this topic.
Edit: 1 more thing: we don't know what Snape did in the Order, but i remember that he was ;aughing at Sirius that he sits in his house safely... I think that being both Voldemort's and Dumbledore's spy was very dangerous. I'm wondering why Voldemort trusted him so much before Snape killed Dumbledore...

This is my first post on the whole Snape betrayal topic, although I've of course been giving it a lot of thought.

No one can deny, there is definitely more to the situation than has been revealed. We can't know for sure what has gone on between Dumbledore and Snape behind the scenes, but I have a few ideas. I'd like to state right now, whether or not Snape was following Dumbledore's orders or not - I think he is a bad person - for doing what he did. Even if he was acting on Dumbledore's wishes, he should have sacrificed himself. Dumbledore has been almost like a father to Snape, it was only Dumbledore's trust that kept him out of Azkaban, and although he has also had his 'Dark Lord' - Dumbledore has been the only father figure that Snape has ever been able to truly confide in. Snape surely knows this - yet he has, to all intents and purposes, betrayed him.

Moving on: I would assume that Dumbledore knew all along that the Unbreakable Vow had been made. He certainly knew that Draco was trying to kill him, yet he did nothing.

When speaking to Draco, he declares: "It so happens that I trust Professor Snape." Even then, he trusts that Snape is acting on his orders. And yet - the moment Snape emerges from the door to the ramparts, without even waiting to see what Snape will do; how he will act - Dumbledore begins to plead: "Severus ... please ..."

We have to ask - why? Why was he pleading, if he trusts Snape still? He showed no sign of fear at all in talking to Greyback, or to the other Death Eaters - each of them could have ended his life just as easily as Snape - and we know that he does not fear death. Even if he was afraid, he would not show his fear. I can only think that, somehow, he knew that Snape's own life was in the balance on those ramparts. He was pleading for Snape to kill him, in order to save his own life.

So - working on the assumption that he knew about the Unbreakable Vow - how did he know? Snape could not have told him, in doing so he would be in violation of his vow to help Draco; he would have dropped dead.

This is where the whole mystery becomes more difficult and confusing. The only other people who were present when the Vow was made, were Bellatrix, Narcissa, and Wormtail. Draco knew something about the meeting as well, but I don't think that any of the other Death Eaters knew about it - how did Dumbledore know? None of these people would have willingly told him.

It could be that Dumbledore has people working undercover, other than Snape, who knew about the Vow. I don't think so though. That the Vow had been made, would not have been widely known amongst the Death Eaters - Voldemort could not have known. If he had've done, he would have punished Narcissa for betraying him, and telling Snape about the plan.

Dumbledore could also have used legilimency somehow, to ascertain the truth. This is my best guess - he surely would have wanted to gather as much information as possible about what the Death Eater's plans were, but how he would manage this is beyond me. I think, if anything, he could have penetrated Draco's mind in order to learn about the Unbreakable Vow.

I'm at a loss, though, really. All I know is that we will doubtless learn more about the death of Dumbledore in the final book.

Dumbledore might know about the Unbreakable Vow.
First of all, if Voldmort told Snape what he intends to order Draco to do- and Snape seemed to know about this- Snape might easy foretell that Narcissa might come to him to plead him to help Draco. He might have told Dumbledore before the visit.
And there wasn't said that if Snape tells anyone, he'll be dead. So I think Dumbledore knew about the vow.

i cant belave snape did that tho. i know this is totally wrong but maybe vol.. started to belave snape was workin for dum.. do dum.. told snape to kill him. i know this is sooo wrong but hay just said it i cant belave his is dead

I personally agree with the jesus/judas theory. There is no way that snape could fool dumbledor and their relationship seems to run deep. I also am not quite sure if sirius is dead. I was even more sure before i read HBP but im still clinging onto the hope....

DD doesn’t tell the Order everything he knows. Many people around him still don’t know what specific thing Snape did to have DD’s total trust. There are some things which are only between the two of them.

I can’t hate him for doing it . . .I see it the other way around. I feel bad that he was forced in a situation where he was forced to kill a person he cared for.

Dumbldedore trusts Harry. I think he believes that Harry is ready to do this on his own, maybe he even needs to. Snape can now work for Voldemort as a spy and send messages to Harry. If Harry (let’s say) just began getting strange, anonymous notes or letters with accurate information, things he soon finds out are true, he’ll begin to trust them. Just like he began to trust the notes written in Potion’s book.

As for why he took the Vow, it would be like this; Hi, I’m one of the more prominent DEs and more of my DE friends than I care to name think I am a traitor to the Dark Lord. Now I know he plans for Draco to kill Dumbledore but as a loyal DE, I won’t agree to finish the job even though I work in the same place as him and have the best access.

Snape has never really liked Harry and far from respected him. He wouldn’t have given two craps about what Harry thought of him and that’s why I don’t think he would have cared that Harry called him a coward otherwise.

I think the reason Snape couldn’t chose to go into hiding because he’s got too involved in everything. Lucius is still in Azkaban, but once he gets out, he’ll probably do a lot of damage. Think about everything that happened when he slipped the diary into Ginny’s hands, and then everything that happened at the Ministry.

Balderdash, Harry overheard Snape and Drace talking about the Unbreakable Vow and he told Dumbledore about it before the converstaion in the woods that Hagrid overheard.

MOD EDIT : There is no need to quote off an entire member's post. It wastes bandwidth unnecessarily. Just pick the bits which you will elaborating on. Your post has been edited.

I think that Snape killing Dumbledore was all planned. Snape had to kill him so Voldemort could really believe that he was on his side, not Dumbledores. Voldemort had doubt that Snape was on his side, so the perfect thing to seal his trust would be to kill Dumbledore. He couldn't let Malfoy do it or else Voldemort really would think Snape was on the other side. Now Snape can help destroy Voldemort without him having any doubts that Snape is on his side.

I really can't think that Snape was supposed to kill Dumbledore for one reason. The expression on Dumbledores face as he was about to kill him. He was pleading for his live and Snape preformed the Unforgivable Curse on him. I believe that Snape has been deciving Dumbledore the whole time.

i think that Snape did but didn't betray DD. Snape must have known about Draco's plan to attack the school. i know in the book that it says Draco was thought ocluemency by Bellatrix, but do we really think that if Harry couldn't stop Snape that Draco could. Especially sense we know that was mentally weak because he was crying and telling Moaning Myrtle everything in the bathroom. We also know that Draco could feel Snapes presenes in his mind because when they were along in that room Dradc told Snape to stop reading his mind. Then Snape says i see that Bellatrix has been teaching you ocluemency. So Snape must have got into Draco's mind. Then later on in the book it is said that Snape and DD get into an arguement. i'm let to believe that they were argueing about why Snape wouldn't tell DD about Draco's plan. I also think in that same arguement Snape told DD that he took an Unbreakable Vow with Narsicca. That is what probably made DD so angry with Snape. It is also possible later on in that conversation DD tells Snape that Snape should not break his Vow with Narsicca even if he was to kill DD himself. DD would have said that Snape was to important to the Order and that Harry could learn more about the Dark Lord and what his weaknesses are from Snape than he could form DD. So Snape would have then gotten angry and would have tried to get DD to change his mind, but of course DD knew it was the only that he could insure that Harry got proper training before he takes on the Dark Lord. What if DD made Snape take and Unbreakable Vow with him that if he (DD) were to die that Snape would do everything that he could without blowing his cover to help Harry defeat the Dark Lord? So when Harry and Snape were fighting Snape gave Harry so good advice about how to attack a strong Dark wizard ( Voldemort). Now lets go back to when the Death Eaters attacked the school. We know that Snape was in his room in the doungeons. Was this Snape's atempt to try and avoid his Vow with Narsicca, because if he didn't know when there would be an attack Snape thought he could get out of the Vow. Then we know that professor Flitwick came down to the dugeons and told Snape what was going o Then Snape did not have a choice he had to go and fullfil both his Vows.So he Knocked out Flitwick because he knew that Hermione and Luna were outside his door. This shows that Snape really didn't want to do what he was about to do. In sparing Hermione and Luna i think that he was trying to show that he didn't not want to do what he was about to do ( kill DD). Lets face it if he had really turned he would have killed Flitwick, Luna, and Hermione. So when he reached were DD and the Death Eaters were DD saw that Snape didn't want to kill him (DD) so he pleaded with Snape to complete both Vows. DD knew that if one of the other Death Eaters killed him before Snape did then both he (DD) and Snape would have died, because Snape would have broken his Vow with DD and Narsicca. So DD reminded Snape much in the same way he did with aunt Petunia when he said "remeber my last". So he said "Severus...Plaese." to remind Snape of what was at stake,because in that moment everything was at stake both thier futures, Harry's future, and the entire wizarding worlds future. So Snape did what he had to insure that must of those futures remained bright. Also DD knew that after Snape had killed him he would be the second most wanted wizard. So he couldn't stay at Spinners End and he would be spending more time around Voldemort. More time to plot against him, more time to find his weakness,and more time to find out what his Horcruxes are and where they are hidden.

thought i needed to post this again.
if you have any questions e-mail me and i will explain futher.

MOD EDIT : Could you please organize your thoughts/points into paragraphs? Makes your posts that much easier to read. Thanks.

I've just thought that Dumbledore's death was planned because he went to the Dursleys' house and told something what sounded like Dumbledore's last will. And giving Snape the Defence of the Dark Arts job was also meaningful. Like showing Voldemort he was trusting him- and he knew Snape has to kill him, so he allowed to give him the job, earlier he didn't- the job was cursed and Snape was valuable.

And honestly: Snape was always judging Harry by appearances, comparing him to his father he hated so much. If James was really a show-off, Snape must have felt much worse- that's why he always tells Harry he loves showing off, why he hates him.

I know Im new here, and not a moderator, but I feel I must say it. Paragraphs people! They organize your thoughts and allow people to gain a clearer understanding of what you're trying to say, not to mention making the whole thing easier to read.

Now onto the meat, the whole idea behind the Jeus/Judas theory, is not whether the act was wrong or right in a moral sense, but rather the idea of a follower making the ultimate sacrifice, the ultimate show of loyalty in commit an act that must be done. I would put forward that its easier to die for someone you love and are loyal to, than it is to kill them because they ask you to, then be reviled for the rest of time because noone understands the reasons behind your actions. You are not only sacrificing yourself for that person, you are then forced to continue living and deal with the consequences in a world that believed you were unfaithful to them. This is the key idea that must be understood. In acceding to Dumbledore's request, "Severus... Please" Snape made the ultimate sacrifice that one can give a leader.

Dumbledore is not a person that would beg for his life, his actions in the past have proven that. He knew that Draco would not kill him when he immobilized Harry, but he also knew that Draco would not be alone for long. He -made- Harry watch Draco's conflict, and he -made- Harry watch him die by anothers hand, I think that Dumbledore would be clever enough to put his death towards a purpose, since by his own account it was never something he feared. That purpose is further driving Harry into the life/death struggle that he needs to complete before he can be free of Voldemort.


Anyway, I know thats a bit jumbled up there, but the jist of it is, that Dumbledore knew he needed to die in order to propel Harry into the final stage of his journey towards the battle against Voldemort. In this, he was using all the resources at his disposal, and his death was just that, a tool, and one that he forced Snape to wield, using Harry's love for him, and Harry's hatred of Snape together to send Harry onto that path towards Voldemort alone.

I think that snape has gone to the other side (voldemorts). He wouldnt have killed dumbledore if he was on the order of the pheonixs side. You know snape wasnt told by dumbledore to kill him if he needed to because it said dumbledore had a pleading look in his eyes. SO i think snape is gone bad and i want harry to kill snape, Bealatrix , and voldemort.

MOD EDIT : Please read the rules - personal abbreviations are not allowed. "b/c" should have been "because". Your post has been edited.

He had a pleading look in his eyes because he was afraid that Snape would be unable to do what was necessary. Dumbledore has never been afraid of death, he has repeated it over and over and over again.

That is one of the key differences between Voldemort and Dumbledore, Voldemort believes that the most frightening and horrible thing that can happen to someone is death, whereas Dumbledore knows that that is not the case. Dumbledore would not plead for his life.

Ok, this is my suspicion of events. When Narcissa and Bellatrix went to visit Snape, the subject of what Draco was supposed to do never was actually said. Snape merely said that he knew, but whether or not he actually did is still in question. He may very well have bluffed, because he was Voldemort's "favorite" and did not want to appear out of the loop. He then agreed to the Unbreakable Vow to finish the task that Voldemort had set for Draco, but he did not realize at that time what it was. Later on, Snape discovered what it was that Draco had been tasked to perform and was likely shocked. I mean really, does it seem likely that Voldemort would have ordered Draco to kill Dumbledore? If one did not know, then it seems almost ridiculous that one would have presumed that--I certainly did not at the end of Chapter 2. My guess is that Snape did not guess that either--he was going to help Draco with some task and get himself closer to Voldemort and endear himself to the Malfoy family. However, undoubtedly Snape told Dumbledore about the Unbreakable Vow.

In the meantime, Professor Trelawney is noted in Dumbledore's office TWICE when Harry is going for his special "teaching sessions". I would bet a million dollars that she had had another prophecy which likely predicted Dumbledore's impending death. Dumbledore puts 2 and 2 together to figure out that it is Snape who will ultimately be the cause of his death. That is what they are arguing about at the edge of the forest. Snape says "I can't do this anymore", but Dumbledore says "You've already agreed to it!"--meaning the Unbreakable Vow. He probably figured that there was no way in avoiding his death and if he tried to prevent Snape from being the ultimate culprit that he would die from the unbreakable vow and then Draco would be murdered by Greyback.

Trying to make the best of a bad situation, Dumbledore feels that it is more important that Snape stay alive and be as close as possible to Voldemort. Who better to help Harry ultimately find the location of the other Horcruxes? Obviously, Snape will need to be creative in getting this information to Harry, but with Dumbledore gone, Snape will likely be the only way to find them. Dumbledore, noble to the end then pleads for Snape to carry out the killing so that the revised plan can then proceed. This is why I feel that the lines in Snapes face were filled with hatred--he hated himself for creating the situation at hand. He channeled that hatred into the Avada Kadavra spell and then killed Dumbledore.

Dumbledore did trust Snape--it was the Unbreakable Vow that could not be undone. And he wanted to try to salvage the situation as best as possible. That is also why Dumbledore froze Harry--so that he could not interfere with what must play out for everyone else to live. Dumbledore had once said that if he ever did make a mistake it would be a big one--and this was it. Snape's intentions were not to doublecross Dumbledore, but his own fallibility, his brazeness in attempting to make himself out to be important to the Death Eaters and Voldemort caused him to screw up. That is what I think happened.

Balderdash, I think that if Dumbledore had told the Order that he'd die, they'd have protested. And he really could see some sense in his death. We don't know what information Snape passes to Voldemort, but I guess it's very important, we don't know if Voldemort really trusted Snape so much, maybe not, maybe it started breaking a bit..

The Order may think Snape's a traitor, he will be still relevant to the story- I guess Dumbledore in the picture will say what really happened to maybe Mc Gonagall...

Extremely good post, I agree with much of what is in it, though I don't believe that Snape would make a mistake like that. Snape is, to say the least, a careful planner, and far from a rash man. I do not believe that he would enter into an unbreakable oath without knowing what it was that he was promising.

You could also adjust my theory by stating that Snape only knew PART of the plan. Draco was to find a way for the Death Eaters to get into the school AND kill Dumbledore. Snape may have overheard part of the conversation and then left to notify Dumbledore. After Snape left is when Voldemort then said "...and after my Death Eaters help you to subdue Dumbledore, I want you to kill him." That way, Snape may have thought that he knew the plan, but did not know the whole story when he was talking to Narcissa and Bellatrix.

Hi everyone,

I think Dumbledore trusts Snape fully and that he must have taken an unbreakable wow with him at a previous time in the event of something like this were to happen, or he could know that Snape would kill him like a Judus and he had to make sure that the prophocy comes true? I don't like this idea though! I prefer to think that Snape is good guy in the end and will do the right thing. What do you think????

Me again,

I just thought too that JKR is trying to show death and that everyone does die in the end, even in the wizarding world like Harry's parents, I believe that it was just time for Dumbledore to die, albeit a sad way to go (I wished he had gone peacefully in his sleep), however this is not very exciting and the author wrote this to add drama to the book and to the storyline to also to make all of us use our brains to think about such things as death and dying as well as good and evil in the world!

I think Snape is bad.. I'm sorry. I definitely could be wrong and I'm kind of in the middle.

Honestly, unless it was a very clever plan, I would not want Snape to turn out good. I think it adds to the story, and gives Harry another reason to keep fighting. He has learned that it was Snape who overheard Professor Trelawney, so he tipped Voldemort off about Harry. Also, Snape killed Dumbledore, and Harry was very close to him as well. Dumbledore is human and he is not perfect, so he makes mistakes. He also said a man like himself can make few mistakes, but big ones too. I think Snape is working for Voldemort, because as he said to Bellatrix, Voldemort asked him all the questions she did, and he would be able to tell if he was lying, even if he is good at occlumency. I guess its possible that he could have not known the plan, but i don't think he would be too rash. I am curious about the pleading, because Dumbledore would never beg and that may be leading me to think that he asked him to do it.

I wouldn't have wanted Dumbledore to die in his sleep though, I'd want him to die fighting.

sorry for being really long.

I'm kind of having trouble seeing why snape didn't disapparate with harry when he and draco were running away! he could of taken harry to voldemort and then everything would be over. so why didn't he?

when Dd died and he pleaded with snape he didn't really sound like Dd.

and i still think my other theory might be correct: Dd was actually peter pettigrew under the imperius curse and that the polly juice potion turned his magic hand black.

i'm still not sure.

please tell me what you think of my theory!

I believe Snape was bluffing in his assertion that he knew Voldemort's plan for Draco. As a fake spy/real spy, he both needed to appear knowledgable and superior to Narcissa and Bellatrix to maintain his ruse, and to carefully draw out the information he needed for the Order regarding Draco's special assignment to serve the Order.

Firstly, I knew it was Dumbledore who was to die in book 6 - that's how that mythical 'hero's journey' story archetype runs. [see the writings of Joseph Campbell, et al] The death (and even deaths) of a dear one is required. [i.e. the death of Obi Wan in Star Wars is a modern example]

Secondly, I correcly guessed, from the dymanics of the 'Spinner's End' chapter, the nature and target of Draco's primary assignment - Dumbledore's assassination - and Draco's failure and Snape's 'success.' Draco crying to Myrtle in the boy wash room only reinforced my belief that he would be unable to suceed in killing the Headmaster. [Like most bullys, he really not very brave]

Why did Snape have to give the Unbreakable Vow? Because the success of the Order's war against the Dark Lord demanded it. The security of his position as a supposed spy for Voldemort at Hogwarts had to be maintained. After claiming to know (in order to discover) what the assignment was, he could not say no without losing credibility, not merely for Narcissa (which whom there may be more than what text we see), but also Bellatrix, the grande dame of the Death Eaters (just ask her, she thinks she's the BEST). Anything else than a yes would have brought about his death and the ruination of the work of the Order.

Did he know that it meant he would likely have to kill Dumbledore? Maybe not, and maybe yes.

Most definitely, I believe there is more to it than what we 'read' with Dumbledore's death. I like to think that "you may be required to kill me" was part of Dubledore's and Snape's converations. Snape, being a highly accomplished Occlumens, would, IMHO, be a perfect candidate for a Secret-Keeper. But what or which secret or secrets, who knows - but it's fun speculating, isn't it?

Ok, this is very interesting to me and I think that the fact people are still wondering whether or not Snape betrayed the Order is a testament to the brilliance of Rowling's storytelling. In my mind, there is no doubt that Snape is evil. I mean, he killed Dumbledore. Besides that, the very way that the book is written points directly to the fact that Snape=bad guy. In the beginning, we find Snape making the unbreakable vow to Narcissa about both protecting Draco and carrying out Draco's mission should he fail. Before that, Snape gives a detailed account of why he did certain things that made him look like he was working against the Dark Lord. Here, all the evidence seems to prove that Snape is still a servant of Lord Voldemort. However, we the readers continue to trust that Snape is working for Dumbledore. We trust him just like the other characters trust him. We trust him just like Harry trusts the Half-Blood Prince (even though he clearly has an interest in the Dark Arts). And of course, we are all betrayed in the end when Snape kills Dumbledore (at which point, I was very upset). Anyway, that's seamless storytelling right there, the way that Rowling fooled both character and audience. As the reader, we tend to think that we have more insight than the actual characters, which made the whole thing more of a shock.

Kudos, Rowling. Kudos.

I_love_harry_potter, while it may have definetly been easy for Snape to disapparate with Harry, he and Draco were still on Hogwarts grounds, and you can't apparate or disapparate on Hogwarts grounds.. And, Snape couldn't have taken Harry; Hagrid was just a few feet away from them.

Heh, anyway.. No, it didn't sound like Dumbledore to plead Snape. When I first read that bit, I thought that DD was pleading Snape as though to tell him that this wasn't true: that Snape was on the Death Eater's side..

I don't think Snape was bluffing...but then again, maybe he was. He may not have known what he was getting into, and when Hagrid (I think it was Hagrid) heard Snape fighting with Dumbledore, that would've been the time that Snape found out.. I agree, Myrra; DD had the sort of same converstaion that he had with Harry, which was that save yourself, and leave me.. Oh, and if it was Peter Pettigrew under the Imperius curse, who had cast it? And, why would the ring be destroyed?

Dumbledore is dead. We must all except that in the end. Of course im sure that DD will give harry advice in the 7th book, probably through his protrait in the headmaster's office. But to the fact of Snape betraying the OOTP and DD but i think that snape was acting under 2 unbreakable vows. one to narcissa and the other to DD. the one to narcissa to protect malfoy and to finish his task if draco couldn't complete it. and another vow to DD that he must do whatever he can to help harry defeat voldemort without blowing his cover. snape proved my theory in several ways. one by not attacking harry and making the other death eaters lay off. and by telling harry how to defeat the dark wizard, "Blocked again and again Potter until you learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed!" and then when he hesitated at killing DD. and for the curse to be real, one has to mean it so of course his face could be full of hatred for a few reasons.
1) to make the curse work
2)because he had to kill the one person that ever gave him a second chance
3)he had to complete his vow(s) and he didn't want to

i could be completely wrong but we won't know until the 7th book comes out!!

once again im sorry if im wrong, feel free to correct me

MOD EDIT : Please read the rules - personal abbreviations is not allowed. "w/e" should have been "whatever" and "bc" should have been "because". Please type in full next time. Your post has been edited.