Full Version: Rowling Is Framing Snape And Dumbledore
Ok how could Dumbldore not be dead if they had a funeral for him and his body was in there.
No one actually sees the body at any point during the funeral.
I think that Dumbledore is alive and the killing was part of a bigger plan.
Snape is really good(and a good actor). Dumbledore wanted snape to "kill" him partly to protect Draco Malfoy who Dumbledore loves in spit of his desire to live up to Lucius's (BAD) example.
Dumbledore is willing to die at Snape's hands to prevent Draco from crossing the line toward being completely evil. He set's an example of love,loyalty and trust which is the way that true magic works.
In HBP JKR introduces the idea of nonverbal spells and this provides a way the murder could be faked.
Perhaps what Snape actually did was cast a nonverbal levicorpus while yelling out the killing curse. Just saying the incantation wouldn't kill Dumbledore. As pointed out earlier in this thread we learned in book 5 (OoP) that Avada Kadavra and other unforgivable curses won't work unless you really mean it. Since the visual affect of levicorpus is similar to Avada Kadavra all Snape had to do once DD was in the air was to cast a nonverbal Libericorpus to Drop dumbledore off the tower and by the time they got to the "body" the paralyzing potion had done its job and Dumbledore was in a death like state.
I am sure there are other reasons for the ruse but given JKR's fondness for the theme of redemption I think that saving MalFoy and bringing him to the right side is an important plot theme (for book 7).
It may have also been necessary to drink the potion in the cave for some other reason. Perhaps to stop the damage from whatever had injured Dumbledore's hand.
By the way I suspect that Dumbledore was willing to drink the potion in the cave because Snape (who probably made it) told him exactly what it would do. This is why it is so important that the Half Blood Prince's abilities as a Potions Prodigy were emphasized. Even MoldieWart would need someone so skilled that He could "even put a stopper in Death"
Griff
Snape is really good(and a good actor). Dumbledore wanted snape to "kill" him partly to protect Draco Malfoy who Dumbledore loves in spit of his desire to live up to Lucius's (BAD) example.
Dumbledore is willing to die at Snape's hands to prevent Draco from crossing the line toward being completely evil. He set's an example of love,loyalty and trust which is the way that true magic works.
In HBP JKR introduces the idea of nonverbal spells and this provides a way the murder could be faked.
Perhaps what Snape actually did was cast a nonverbal levicorpus while yelling out the killing curse. Just saying the incantation wouldn't kill Dumbledore. As pointed out earlier in this thread we learned in book 5 (OoP) that Avada Kadavra and other unforgivable curses won't work unless you really mean it. Since the visual affect of levicorpus is similar to Avada Kadavra all Snape had to do once DD was in the air was to cast a nonverbal Libericorpus to Drop dumbledore off the tower and by the time they got to the "body" the paralyzing potion had done its job and Dumbledore was in a death like state.
I am sure there are other reasons for the ruse but given JKR's fondness for the theme of redemption I think that saving MalFoy and bringing him to the right side is an important plot theme (for book 7).
It may have also been necessary to drink the potion in the cave for some other reason. Perhaps to stop the damage from whatever had injured Dumbledore's hand.
By the way I suspect that Dumbledore was willing to drink the potion in the cave because Snape (who probably made it) told him exactly what it would do. This is why it is so important that the Half Blood Prince's abilities as a Potions Prodigy were emphasized. Even MoldieWart would need someone so skilled that He could "even put a stopper in Death"
Griff
[B][SIZE=7][COLOR=red] What do you mean????????????? 
It's hard to be convinced that the death wasn't planned if you think about DD without his wand, who can immobilize Harry, and couldn't he defend of Draco?
What more, DD that the love is important and love wins. Voldemort would never think about this kind of sacrifice. DD's death could do much good, assuming that Snape's still on the good side. If he wasn't- DD behaved stupid like hell and this kind of behaviour would be simply foolish. I can't believe that Rowling wants to tell us: Hey people, big good heroes make huge mistakes which lead them to unwilling death
.
What more, DD that the love is important and love wins. Voldemort would never think about this kind of sacrifice. DD's death could do much good, assuming that Snape's still on the good side. If he wasn't- DD behaved stupid like hell and this kind of behaviour would be simply foolish. I can't believe that Rowling wants to tell us: Hey people, big good heroes make huge mistakes which lead them to unwilling death
.
Yes, that is a good point raised about DD's death bringing about good - the whole of the last couple of pages of HBP talks about couples coming together eg Tonks and Lupin and the strengthening of bonds between Harry and Ginny despite what it looks like. With that in mind, regardless of whether he has actually died or not, DD has brought about strong positive emotions of love, and there was alot of that theme threading through the book. Even Narcissa's love for Draco is still a mother's love, maybe that will come into play.
I'm still interested in the plot about the AK and why the body went flying over the castle wall with no cracking sound. I can't remember off-hand but was there the mention of the green flash ?
I'm still interested in the plot about the AK and why the body went flying over the castle wall with no cracking sound. I can't remember off-hand but was there the mention of the green flash ?
Jeannie, I read your post (yep, all of it! 
) for the first time today - which is bad, I know, as I'm supposed to check all posts as mod..
It makes me really sad in a strange kind of way because you remind me of myself, last year. I came to the forums full of ideas and theories and deep analyses of the books - heck, I had post-it's sticking out of all of them and books like The Sorcerers Companion and The Magical World of Harry Potter and even Egyptian mythology books all laid out as I tried to figure out a deeper meaning in these books.
Then, that interview happened. Knocked me for six. Took me two weeks to even *want* to come back to the fandom because I felt that all that time had been wasted on something that ultimately turned out to be little more than a children's story.
I've learned a lot since then and whilst I remain deeply disappointed, I still love HP and have a great fondness for the characters and the fandom and can still enjoy talking and debating here, but I honestly do think that it's pointless looking any deeper into these books than the bare-faced facts as they appear. That's become obvious to me now. It's disappointing, yes...especially when you, like me, are clearly trying to get some deeper meaning here but unfortunately, I really don't think there is one.
Dumbledore is absolutely, unequivocally dead. JKR has said so. I think to theorise scenarios that he might, in some way, have survived is pointless. He's dead and Snape killed him. I spent ages last year theorising reasons how Sirius could have survived, but they were all fruitless too. I've posted in other threads the reasons why I think Snape is guilty - and believe me, I don't want to think that either because he's my favourite character, I love him to bits and I've always wanted there to be a hidden inner depth to him, but again, very sadly, I think we have to take Jo at surface level and accept that Snape was telling the truth in Chapter 2. Everything he said makes perfect sense if you consider it from the point of view that he is truly Voldemort's man, just as Harry is truly Dumbledore's.
JKR made that remark about culpability - Snape is more culpable for his actions than Voldemort because he has known love once (probably his mother, I would imagine) where Voldemort never has. Why would she assign blame to a character like that if there had been some ulterior motive to Snape's actions?
I agree that Snape did seem to be guiding Harry in the end and he never once made an effort to hurt him - I truly want to believe that he did that because even at the end, he was trying to guide Harry, but I can't - not when you consider the rest of the evidence. You could simply assign that to Voldemort's orders that the boy was not to be touched and they're all in enough trouble as it is because Draco failed in his task - he doesn't want to make things worse for himself, does he?
I have never hoped so much to be wrong....honestly. I honestly hope that my theories about this turn out to be as wrong as all the others I came up with.
Maybe book seven won't be quite the disappointment for me then that HBP was.
) for the first time today - which is bad, I know, as I'm supposed to check all posts as mod.. It makes me really sad in a strange kind of way because you remind me of myself, last year. I came to the forums full of ideas and theories and deep analyses of the books - heck, I had post-it's sticking out of all of them and books like The Sorcerers Companion and The Magical World of Harry Potter and even Egyptian mythology books all laid out as I tried to figure out a deeper meaning in these books.
Then, that interview happened. Knocked me for six. Took me two weeks to even *want* to come back to the fandom because I felt that all that time had been wasted on something that ultimately turned out to be little more than a children's story.
I've learned a lot since then and whilst I remain deeply disappointed, I still love HP and have a great fondness for the characters and the fandom and can still enjoy talking and debating here, but I honestly do think that it's pointless looking any deeper into these books than the bare-faced facts as they appear. That's become obvious to me now. It's disappointing, yes...especially when you, like me, are clearly trying to get some deeper meaning here but unfortunately, I really don't think there is one.
Dumbledore is absolutely, unequivocally dead. JKR has said so. I think to theorise scenarios that he might, in some way, have survived is pointless. He's dead and Snape killed him. I spent ages last year theorising reasons how Sirius could have survived, but they were all fruitless too. I've posted in other threads the reasons why I think Snape is guilty - and believe me, I don't want to think that either because he's my favourite character, I love him to bits and I've always wanted there to be a hidden inner depth to him, but again, very sadly, I think we have to take Jo at surface level and accept that Snape was telling the truth in Chapter 2. Everything he said makes perfect sense if you consider it from the point of view that he is truly Voldemort's man, just as Harry is truly Dumbledore's.
JKR made that remark about culpability - Snape is more culpable for his actions than Voldemort because he has known love once (probably his mother, I would imagine) where Voldemort never has. Why would she assign blame to a character like that if there had been some ulterior motive to Snape's actions?
I agree that Snape did seem to be guiding Harry in the end and he never once made an effort to hurt him - I truly want to believe that he did that because even at the end, he was trying to guide Harry, but I can't - not when you consider the rest of the evidence. You could simply assign that to Voldemort's orders that the boy was not to be touched and they're all in enough trouble as it is because Draco failed in his task - he doesn't want to make things worse for himself, does he?
I have never hoped so much to be wrong....honestly. I honestly hope that my theories about this turn out to be as wrong as all the others I came up with.
Maybe book seven won't be quite the disappointment for me then that HBP was.
Dana, your post's so sad... but I do believe that if you failed once (about Sirius), you don't want to feel dissapointed with Snape 
I understand. It's my first Harry Potter forum here and I still "cling to a desperate hope" but not as strong as I used to cling...
If you're right, what Rowling's done? She somehow tore Snape's mystery making him a shallow man and tore DD's omni-knowledge making him weak man...
I understand. It's my first Harry Potter forum here and I still "cling to a desperate hope" but not as strong as I used to cling... If you're right, what Rowling's done? She somehow tore Snape's mystery making him a shallow man and tore DD's omni-knowledge making him weak man...
Well said bubotuber_pus!
Believe Dana! DD is alive! Alive I tell you! And Snape is indeed good ah....very deep down inside.
Dare to hope! There are much worse things than being wrong about a book or the story line of a book.
Believe Dana! DD is alive! Alive I tell you! And Snape is indeed good ah....very deep down inside.
Dare to hope! There are much worse things than being wrong about a book or the story line of a book.
Believe me? That DD is alive? 
Didn't I say he was dead?
Yeah, I'm sorry about the rather sad tone of that post, but that does basically sum up how I feel. As I've said before, I don't want to get called delusional again for believing that Snape is good when all evidence points to the contrary.
That being said, I've just posted something of a more balanced view in the 'Who is Snape betraying' thread that I won't repeat here, but basically I'm coming around to the idea that maybe, just maybe, Snape isn't as rotten as we think he is.
That does not, however, extend to include a belief that Dumbledore is alive. He's not. He's deader than an extremely dead thing and *that* is something I *am* prepared to put money on. As for Snape's loyalties....I don't like the odds at the moment.
And I do hope....keeping the dream alive...didn't you see my sig?
Didn't I say he was dead? Yeah, I'm sorry about the rather sad tone of that post, but that does basically sum up how I feel. As I've said before, I don't want to get called delusional again for believing that Snape is good when all evidence points to the contrary.
That being said, I've just posted something of a more balanced view in the 'Who is Snape betraying' thread that I won't repeat here, but basically I'm coming around to the idea that maybe, just maybe, Snape isn't as rotten as we think he is.
That does not, however, extend to include a belief that Dumbledore is alive. He's not. He's deader than an extremely dead thing and *that* is something I *am* prepared to put money on.
As for Snape's loyalties....I don't like the odds at the moment. And I do hope....keeping the dream alive...didn't you see my sig?
Rowling may talk about desperate hope but if we hope that something happens, it sometimes happens and hope isn't a bad feeling in my opinion.
There are so many shallow Death Eaters thinking only about doing what they want to do, rotten to the roots. If Snape was one, it wouldn't be so interesting... if he was like Bellatrix or Greyback it would be simple division of people who are bad and good, black and white. You, Dana, quote many Rowling's talks. To comfort you , do you remember when she said about foreshadowings in the third movie? The biggest part which was different than this in the book was the Snape-protecting-children part!
And DD said while the hearing that he gave PROOFS that Snape's innocent. Proofs are stronger words than JUDGEMENTS
.
There are so many shallow Death Eaters thinking only about doing what they want to do, rotten to the roots. If Snape was one, it wouldn't be so interesting... if he was like Bellatrix or Greyback
it would be simple division of people who are bad and good, black and white. You, Dana, quote many Rowling's talks. To comfort you , do you remember when she said about foreshadowings in the third movie? The biggest part which was different than this in the book was the Snape-protecting-children part!And DD said while the hearing that he gave PROOFS that Snape's innocent. Proofs are stronger words than JUDGEMENTS
.
Well i dont know about in chapter 2 spinners end malfoy's mom says to snape the dark lord wants him to do something no one else can do not even the dark lord himself
so im positive now that the task for malfoy was to kill DD even though i thought it was not i went and re-read the chapters that was important
and so Snape knew he had to kill DD from then
so he took the vow knowing he had to kill DD
so im positive now that the task for malfoy was to kill DD even though i thought it was not i went and re-read the chapters that was important
and so Snape knew he had to kill DD from then
so he took the vow knowing he had to kill DD
I think everyone's been understimating old Dumbledore a bit too much... He would've never preferred to see any of his students hurted nor dead instead of him. The way things happended lead to that tragic scene. I believe he IS dead, but will deffenitly play a major role in book 7. We'll be dealing with Dumbledore's legacy or something..
On the other hand, I think DD made Snape kill him and that Snape will play a crucial part in Voldemorts doom... Do the math, Sirius dead, DD dead, and Snape sided with Voldy.. There's no way JKR is going to make Harry bring Voldy down just by himself! That'd be pushing it a bit too far...
On the other hand, I think DD made Snape kill him and that Snape will play a crucial part in Voldemorts doom... Do the math, Sirius dead, DD dead, and Snape sided with Voldy.. There's no way JKR is going to make Harry bring Voldy down just by himself! That'd be pushing it a bit too far...
Jeannine - I must say i completly agree with you...well said...and uhh my thoughts exactly....any other agreement statements i forgot?
good job...you changed my whole prespective....thanks alot, now i have some hope
good job...you changed my whole prespective....thanks alot, now i have some hope
Edited: Better?
"He can not kill you if you are already dead.Come over to the right side, Draco, and we can hide you more completly than you can possibly imagine. What is more-I can send members of the Order to your mother tonight and hide her likewise. Nobody would be surprised that you had died in your attempt to kill me-forgive me, but Lord Voldemort probably expects it."
Wow!
Can anyone explain to me why is this part completely missing in the UK version?
UK version, P. 552/553:
...I have got no choice."
"Come over to the right side, Draco, and we can hide you more completly than you can possibly imagine. What is more, I can send members of the Order to your mother tonight and hide her likewise. Your father is safe in Azkaban... when the time comes we can protect him too..." etc...
Thet's all! I've got both children and adoult book!
"He can not kill you if you are already dead.Come over to the right side, Draco, and we can hide you more completly than you can possibly imagine. What is more-I can send members of the Order to your mother tonight and hide her likewise. Nobody would be surprised that you had died in your attempt to kill me-forgive me, but Lord Voldemort probably expects it."
Wow!
Can anyone explain to me why is this part completely missing in the UK version?
UK version, P. 552/553:
...I have got no choice."
"Come over to the right side, Draco, and we can hide you more completly than you can possibly imagine. What is more, I can send members of the Order to your mother tonight and hide her likewise. Your father is safe in Azkaban... when the time comes we can protect him too..." etc...
Thet's all! I've got both children and adoult book!
Hi there kathrina,
That paragraph was in the British version it's just on page 552/553.
I think the British and American editions are numbered differently becase the American ones have picture. *grumbles* lucky fans!
Btw youu dont have to post the snapelovers post twice, the once will do or alternativley you could just mention that that's the one your responding to.
If ever you encounter any difficulties on the site, have a question or query please don't hesitate to drop one of us moderators or prefects a line and we'll do our best to help. You can Private message one of us by clicking on our names and then clicking on the ‘private message’ icon I the bottom left hand side of that screen.
Happy posting! Shane
That paragraph was in the British version it's just on page 552/553.
I think the British and American editions are numbered differently becase the American ones have picture. *grumbles* lucky fans!
Btw youu dont have to post the snapelovers post twice, the once will do or alternativley you could just mention that that's the one your responding to.
If ever you encounter any difficulties on the site, have a question or query please don't hesitate to drop one of us moderators or prefects a line and we'll do our best to help. You can Private message one of us by clicking on our names and then clicking on the ‘private message’ icon I the bottom left hand side of that screen.
Happy posting! Shane
wow..i read the whole thing..and i have 2 say...you convinced me 85% that snape really is on DD side!! u really broke down a lot of stuff really well!! i didnt catch half the stuff that u did!!
MOD EDIT : Please check the rules for the forums - netspeak ('u', '2') is not allowed here.
MOD EDIT : Please check the rules for the forums - netspeak ('u', '2') is not allowed here.
wow!!
so, after all, i'm not the only one who thinks that Snape is a double agent!
i'm very glad! I thought that that was only one of my paranoias!
you know, the more i reread the 6th book the more your thread makes sense....keep it up....ill post more later too..too tired right now
I read the whole article, but I admit i haven't read all the ansers. Sorry, if I repeat everyone else.
I still belive Snape is bad. the writer had listed reasons in books why Snape is innocent. But reasons from first 3 and from fourth until the end can't be count. As Snape himself said, he thoudht that Voldemort was finished so why would he try to suport him? ( Suport isn't the best word, but I hope you understand)
Writer also said that Snape didn't harm Harry in last fight in HBP. Thats because he was saving Harry for Voldemort, as he said to DE.
He/she says that Harry was always wrong when he suspected Snape harming someone. It's the fact that even harry was wrong, he always knew that Snape was evil. He was the only one who always was certain to it.
I still belive Snape is bad. the writer had listed reasons in books why Snape is innocent. But reasons from first 3 and from fourth until the end can't be count. As Snape himself said, he thoudht that Voldemort was finished so why would he try to suport him? ( Suport isn't the best word, but I hope you understand)
Writer also said that Snape didn't harm Harry in last fight in HBP. Thats because he was saving Harry for Voldemort, as he said to DE.
He/she says that Harry was always wrong when he suspected Snape harming someone. It's the fact that even harry was wrong, he always knew that Snape was evil. He was the only one who always was certain to it.
I read all the way through.
I agree with you that snape is a good guy. I however believe that DD is truly dead. I think hen knew his time was running short . Harry needed to kill Voldemort without the help of DD and I think DD sacrificed himself to help harry. Also if ppl think that DD is not dead because of certain clues. Think about this. Serious's body was never found. Nor did they really explain how he died. Or didn't. I was confused on the whole thing. By not having His Bdy she made it seem like he wasnt dead. I think he is. But i think he should have been killed off in a more 'REAL' way. same as DD. I think J.K.R wants ppl to think they will come back only to be wrong.
I agree with you that snape is a good guy. I however believe that DD is truly dead. I think hen knew his time was running short . Harry needed to kill Voldemort without the help of DD and I think DD sacrificed himself to help harry. Also if ppl think that DD is not dead because of certain clues. Think about this. Serious's body was never found. Nor did they really explain how he died. Or didn't. I was confused on the whole thing. By not having His Bdy she made it seem like he wasnt dead. I think he is. But i think he should have been killed off in a more 'REAL' way. same as DD. I think J.K.R wants ppl to think they will come back only to be wrong.
I have been reading this whole thread with great interest and I must say, that most theories brought up are nicely argumented and fair. What struck me, was that nobody (not in this thread, nor in any other similar thread) ever made the correlation between Snape acting like a good and obedient soldier and Dumbledore acting like his commanding officer. This streak can be followed through all six HP-Books, whenever you have Snape interacting with Dumbledore or Snape doing something for and on behalf of Dumbledore (like announcing to Harry in OOTP the Occlumency Lessons in the kitchen of Grimmaud Place). Snape behaving in a good soldierly manner does not exclude so childlike behaviour, as to rise to Sirius' provocation and behave like another teenager without restraint and retinue. It does not exclude either to not happily following an order (it is evident, that he does not relish in teaching Harry occlumency and that he would rather have no closer contact with the boy). Nevertheless and notwithstanding all personal 'discomfort', when it comes to Harry, James Potter, the Marauders and his past (childhood) experiences, Snape comes over like an obedient soldier in a war. Even the exchange between him and Dumbledore in Book 6, seconds before Snape speaks 'Aveda Kedavra' gives this impression of a soldier acting on orders from a superior, also (hatred and revulsion were etched into the harsh lines of his face) the one receiving the order does not like to execute them (but has to, because this is how things are done in a military-style environment with one superior, having the power to command and one 'executive' having to obey these commands, no matter what he personally thinks or feels. Otherwise, no chain of command could truely work and military-style operations (and such is the war against Voldemort) would go ramshackle.
This said, I do have the feeling that Dumbledore indeed does not plead for his life with Snape or tries to convince him to 'stay on the side of the light': I see a situation, where one comrade in arms (Dumbledore) finds himself in such a hopeless situation with no way out, that he has to implore another comrade in arms (Snape), who is still having his fighting capabilities uninhibited by a wound (the potion in the cave plus the remainders from the curse on the Gaunt Ring must have left traces on Dumbledore), to put him out of his misery. Such 'mercy killings' have happened throughout wars all over history, some became public, many more not. And I do have the feeling, that this is exactly what Snape did...well: He could have refused to do so, abandoning Dumbledore to a slow dead (if no other death eater present would have raised the wand) simply standing there and looking at Dumbledore deterioriating beyond hope. I do not think that this would have activated the unbreakable vow with Narcissa, for literally speaking, by inaction he would have accomplished Draco's set task. He could also have taken upon the DEs and Draco, thus facing his own end and accepting that Dumbledore would either die or be killed during the action. But to what use in the end? There would have been 2 bodies of the good guys + x bodies of the bad guys on the tower plus perhaps a maimed or killed Harry, the moment the freezing charm lifted with Dumbledore's dead. Or he could have put his comrade (Dumbledore) out of his misery and shepherded the enemy (the DEs) away from the battleground Hogwarts without allowing them to do further harm to the other good guys fighting ( Luna, Ginny, Neville, the other teachers downstairs). I'd say, this third option was, what Dumbledore's 'Please, Severus.....' insinuated, following an exchange of minds (they had eye contact) between the commanding officer and his soldier.
That's what I think too. What was Snape's position as a Death Eater? He was a spy, he didn't need to kill, I think ("My informations led to the death...", he said and I believe it was a lie, because he didn't exactly cause Sirius's death), so he killed DD whoever ordered him to, but what I want to underline: I'm not convinced by these who say: "He'll be doing more awful things as a Death Eater now, DD wouldn't want it, so it wasn't on DD's orders). No. I think his part isn't killing. It's Greyback's and other DEs' part.
First of all, I'm sorry for any mistakes I'm about to make with my English.
I'm sorry that I'm replying this late, but I still hope you'll read it. I've only found this site a week ago.
I've read it all, and I must say I agree with you. There are a couple of this to add, and they are all on this site:
www.dumbledoreisnotdead.com
There are really a lot of clues on this site, you've mentioned a lot of it already, but there are also a couple I haven't read in your essay.
I think snape and dumbledore did had a plan together. When Hagrid heard snape and dumbledore arguing at the forest in HBP, I think it is because Dumbledore wanted Snape to 'fake kill' Dumbledore, but Snape didn't wanted to do it anymore.
This is almost the same as when Dumbledore tells Harry to make sure he's drinking the poison.Rowling is also using the same words to describe these two things:
HBP, pg 534
"Hating himself, repulsed by what he was doing, Hharry forced the goblet back towards Dumbledore's mouth and tipped it, so tha Dumbledoredrank the remainder of the potion inside"
HBP, pg 556
"Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harshlines of his face."
Is it coincidence that the same words are used? I don't think so.
And if you have to really mean an inforgivable curse, if you have to enjoy doning it, as Bellatrix says in OoP, couldn't it be possible that Snape SAID the AK, but because he didn't meant it, the curse wasn't working properly? Couldn't Dumbledore just be very, very, very hurt?
AND, doesn't the tears of a phoenix have healing powers? Felix is singing very long, an entire Chapter. Every now and then it is mentioned during the chapter:
HBP pg 579
They all fell silent. Fawkes's lament was still echoing over the dark grounds outside.
I think he could be singing this long because he's is doing some very difficult healing. He could be healing Dumbledore at the time.
I know it is a bit far fetched, (I think that's how it's said in English )
but...it could be true.
And there's also a piece missing in the UK version that is in the USA version, wich I think is very crusial. You can read it on the site, it's when Malfoy and Dumbledore are talking.
I think Dumbledore is faking dead so he can give finding the Horcruxes all his attention.
Well I could go on for a while, but you can read it all on te site if mentioned before.
I wonder what you think of it...
I'm sorry that I'm replying this late, but I still hope you'll read it. I've only found this site a week ago.
I've read it all, and I must say I agree with you. There are a couple of this to add, and they are all on this site:
www.dumbledoreisnotdead.com
There are really a lot of clues on this site, you've mentioned a lot of it already, but there are also a couple I haven't read in your essay.
I think snape and dumbledore did had a plan together. When Hagrid heard snape and dumbledore arguing at the forest in HBP, I think it is because Dumbledore wanted Snape to 'fake kill' Dumbledore, but Snape didn't wanted to do it anymore.
This is almost the same as when Dumbledore tells Harry to make sure he's drinking the poison.Rowling is also using the same words to describe these two things:
HBP, pg 534
"Hating himself, repulsed by what he was doing, Hharry forced the goblet back towards Dumbledore's mouth and tipped it, so tha Dumbledoredrank the remainder of the potion inside"
HBP, pg 556
"Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harshlines of his face."
Is it coincidence that the same words are used? I don't think so.
And if you have to really mean an inforgivable curse, if you have to enjoy doning it, as Bellatrix says in OoP, couldn't it be possible that Snape SAID the AK, but because he didn't meant it, the curse wasn't working properly? Couldn't Dumbledore just be very, very, very hurt?
AND, doesn't the tears of a phoenix have healing powers? Felix is singing very long, an entire Chapter. Every now and then it is mentioned during the chapter:
HBP pg 579
They all fell silent. Fawkes's lament was still echoing over the dark grounds outside.
I think he could be singing this long because he's is doing some very difficult healing. He could be healing Dumbledore at the time.
I know it is a bit far fetched, (I think that's how it's said in English
)but...it could be true.
And there's also a piece missing in the UK version that is in the USA version, wich I think is very crusial. You can read it on the site, it's when Malfoy and Dumbledore are talking.
I think Dumbledore is faking dead so he can give finding the Horcruxes all his attention.
Well I could go on for a while, but you can read it all on te site if mentioned before.
I wonder what you think of it...
Sorry I've been gone so long - lot's of stuff taking my attention away. But I just got the Harry Potter Scene It game for my birthday and that reminded me to come here and check this again.
Anyway, thanks for all of your postings!! I will have to read all of the "new" postings when I'm not so tired and get back to you all. Check back in a day or two!
Jeannine
Anyway, thanks for all of your postings!! I will have to read all of the "new" postings when I'm not so tired and get back to you all. Check back in a day or two!
Jeannine
Dumbledore- the stupidest man i have met. Why to stun Harry?
If he wouldnt have done it, harry could have burnt malfoy's ass...
BUT NO. Dumbledore, some old cholera... A piece of **** like Malfoy and his **** mumie must be safe. So anyway, the stupid man had paralyzed Harry, so why not take the broom and spin over it Malfoy's fat ass? It proves that a piece of **** like Malfoy is more important to him than Harry and himself.
MOD EDIT : Wow. That's a lot of work for the censor in one post. Please read the rules before you post again. I'll be contacting you via PM shortly.
If he wouldnt have done it, harry could have burnt malfoy's ass...
BUT NO. Dumbledore, some old cholera... A piece of **** like Malfoy and his **** mumie must be safe. So anyway, the stupid man had paralyzed Harry, so why not take the broom and spin over it Malfoy's fat ass? It proves that a piece of **** like Malfoy is more important to him than Harry and himself.
MOD EDIT : Wow. That's a lot of work for the censor in one post. Please read the rules before you post again. I'll be contacting you via PM shortly.
Ooops it seems that you'll receive a warning from the mods, as vulgar words aren't allowed here. I think you were talking about DD who chose Malfoy's safety over his own? It's suspicious indeed... It was on purpose, I don't see any other answers.
Seriously, I think that Dumbledore DIDN'T know who was coming up the stairs. He had only a second to act, and if it was Voldemort coming, I doubt he would want Harry unprotected. He knew he wouldn't be able to fight Voldemort if it was him, so he sacrificed himself in order to save Harry from UNKNOWN danger. How would he have any clue what to expect?
Ok, so I know it's been a while since I was last here, in spite of promises! Sorry. But having just reread OoP & HBP, I had a few other insights...
After rereading my original post, I came across this section
(P 405, Ch 19) Hagrid is begrudgingly relaying to Harry the argument he overheard between Dumbledore and Snape.
“…I overheard ‘em talking – well, arguin’…I jus’ heard Snape sayin’ Dumbledore took too much fer granted a’ maybe he – Snape didn’ wan’ ter do it anymore—“
”Do what?”
”I dunno, Harry, it sounded like Snape was feelin’ a bit overworked, tha’s all – anyway, Dumbledore told him flat out he’d agreed ter do it an’ that was all there was to it. Pretty firm with him. An’ then he said summat abou’ Snape makin’ investigations in his House, in Slytherin…”
Snape doesn’t want to work for Voldemort anymore. He’s finding it too hard. But Dumbledore argued with him that he’d agreed to do it and to back out now would be devastating. Dumbledore was also inquiring about Snape’s progress investigating the cursed necklace and wine. Snape is obviously working with Dumbledore, doing what Dumbledore asked of him.
My new thought here is that the issue they were arguing - what Dumbledore was taking for granted - was that the Snape was going to have to make it look like he was killing DD to save Malfoy. Could the Avada Kedavara curse be blocked. Could DD be saying Snape promised him flat out he'd agree to pretend to kill him and that's all there was to it?
Also, Lupin is working under-cover in the land of the werewolves. Mundungus is working under-cover in the land of the "morally conflicted". Snape could thus be working under-cover in the land of the Dark Lord.
Also, at the end of the HBP (p 595) when Snape "gazed for a moment at DD, and there was revulsion & hatred etched in the hard lines of his face." - as I said in the original essay, "gazed" contridicts "revulsion" and "hatred". But those words, looked at another way, make sense. Snape gazes at DD in a "good-bye". The revulsion & hatred are for what he's being forced to do.
DD made Harry promise to do exactly as DD told him. Couldn't he have done the same with Snape?
Also, something I missed the first few times 'round... On p 503 of HBP (American edition), DD & Harry are talking about the Horcruxes. "...Had it not been -- forgive me the lack of seemly modesty -- for my own prodigious skill and for Professor Snape's timely action when I returned to Hogwarts, desperately injured, I might not have lived to tell the tale...The ring is no longer a Horcrux." Snape could have messed up with the "cure" for DD. Who would have been the wiser? Snape surely would have wondered why DD had gotten hurt - it would be helpful for Snape to know what DD had gotten into so he would know what to do. He could have gotten the ring from DD and been a hero for Voldemort. But he allowed it to be destroyed.
I just can't help looking at all the times Snape could have let Harry & DD die, not implicating himself, but he chose to "do the right thing" and come to their rescue. WHY WOULD HE DO THAT if he were on the "dark side"?
On p 598, HBP, Harry "...heard the hated voice shout, "It's over, time to go!" and saw Snape disappearing around the corner..." We are meant to believe that Snape's was the hated voice, but there are so many death eaters around, it could have been anyone.
On p 602, HBP, as Snape is repeatedly deflecting Harry's curses, he stops him from doing any unforgivable curses, once being described as using a "lazy flick of the arm". This is meant to give us a "negative" impression, but I feel it was used to show he was trying not to engage.
Snape pushes Harry to use the unspoken spells again, having stressed how important they are while they were in DADA class.
On p 603, HBP, "But before (Harry) could finish this jinx, excruciating pain hit Harry; he keeled over in the grass...Snape was going to torture him to death or madness--
" 'No!' roared Snape's voice and the pain stopped..."
Once again, Harry is making an assumption about Snape and it was proven wrong.
On the same page, Snape insists they leave Harry. "Potter belongs to the Dark Lord - we are to leave him!" Since when?? They worked so hard to get him alone in the GoF. Here's the perfect opportunity to capture him, yet Snape frees the castle grounds of all the Death Eaters, leaving Harry behind. HUH??? Wouldn't it have made more sense to take Harry with them? Snape's cover has already been "blown". Why not go for the gold? Especially after he has Harry's wand hexed away.
On p 607, HBP, Hagrid says, "Dumbledore musta told Snape ter go with them Death Eaters...I suppose he's gotta keep his cover." We're meant to disregard this statement.
Also, we don't know what was in the potion that DD had to drink to remove the locket, but if "RAB" survived long enough to not only remake it but to write a note that it had been destroyed, then couldn't that potion have some other powers to it as well?
Also, DD would certainly not want the students to suffer through losing him, so the phoenix song plays for a long, long time. p 614-5, HBP, "...the phoenix was singing in a way Harry had never heard before: a strickent lament of terrible beauty. And Harry felt, as he had felt about phoenix song before, that the music was inside him, not without: It was his own grief turned magically to song...it seemed to ease their pain a little to listen to the sound of their mourning..." Again, I feel the phoenix is assisting DD in recovering. I think it is also possible that DD is an animagus phoenix. So perhaps the reason that Harry doesn't recognize the phoenix song is because it is from a different animal. The sound comforts him. It could be that DD is sad that he has to leave the grounds & make everyone suffer by believing he is dead.
McGonagall says DD had an "iron-clad" reason for trusting Snape. There has to be something more to that....
p 616, HBP, McGonagall says, "I sent Filius to fetch Snape tonight...If I hadn't alerted Snape to what was going on..." If Snape really were a DE, he would have been in on their plan & there from the beginning, not waiting for a chance notice from someone.
p 617, HBP, Harry asks "So when (Snape) arrived at the fight, he joined in on the Death Eaters' side?" This question is never really answered. "It's all so confusing." No one ever saw Snape doing anything to any of the DA or OoP, with the exception of DD, & I truly believe that was pre-planned.
p 619, HBP, Hermione states that Snape must have stupefied Flitwick. If that was the case, why not stupefy Hermione & Luna as well? Instead, he asks them to help Flitwick - to make sure he was ok...
Snape is very skilled at Occlumency (a-clue-men-see???). Would he not be able to use those powers against Voldemort?
Again, p 645, HBP, (Just because it is so significant...) "Bright, white flames had erupted around Dumbledore's body, and the table upon which it lay...Harry thought, for one heart-stopping moment, that he saw a phoenix fly joyfully into the blue..." Notice he did not say Fawkes. He said a phoenix. And phoenixes rise from the ASHES.
P. 651, HBP, Harry to Ron & Hermione, "If Dumbledore was right -- and I'm sure he was..." Why is Harry so quick to believe DD about everything BUT Snape?
Any thoughts, anyone?
Jeannine
After rereading my original post, I came across this section
(P 405, Ch 19) Hagrid is begrudgingly relaying to Harry the argument he overheard between Dumbledore and Snape.
“…I overheard ‘em talking – well, arguin’…I jus’ heard Snape sayin’ Dumbledore took too much fer granted a’ maybe he – Snape didn’ wan’ ter do it anymore—“
”Do what?”
”I dunno, Harry, it sounded like Snape was feelin’ a bit overworked, tha’s all – anyway, Dumbledore told him flat out he’d agreed ter do it an’ that was all there was to it. Pretty firm with him. An’ then he said summat abou’ Snape makin’ investigations in his House, in Slytherin…”
Snape doesn’t want to work for Voldemort anymore. He’s finding it too hard. But Dumbledore argued with him that he’d agreed to do it and to back out now would be devastating. Dumbledore was also inquiring about Snape’s progress investigating the cursed necklace and wine. Snape is obviously working with Dumbledore, doing what Dumbledore asked of him.
My new thought here is that the issue they were arguing - what Dumbledore was taking for granted - was that the Snape was going to have to make it look like he was killing DD to save Malfoy. Could the Avada Kedavara curse be blocked. Could DD be saying Snape promised him flat out he'd agree to pretend to kill him and that's all there was to it?
Also, Lupin is working under-cover in the land of the werewolves. Mundungus is working under-cover in the land of the "morally conflicted". Snape could thus be working under-cover in the land of the Dark Lord.
Also, at the end of the HBP (p 595) when Snape "gazed for a moment at DD, and there was revulsion & hatred etched in the hard lines of his face." - as I said in the original essay, "gazed" contridicts "revulsion" and "hatred". But those words, looked at another way, make sense. Snape gazes at DD in a "good-bye". The revulsion & hatred are for what he's being forced to do.
DD made Harry promise to do exactly as DD told him. Couldn't he have done the same with Snape?
Also, something I missed the first few times 'round... On p 503 of HBP (American edition), DD & Harry are talking about the Horcruxes. "...Had it not been -- forgive me the lack of seemly modesty -- for my own prodigious skill and for Professor Snape's timely action when I returned to Hogwarts, desperately injured, I might not have lived to tell the tale...The ring is no longer a Horcrux." Snape could have messed up with the "cure" for DD. Who would have been the wiser? Snape surely would have wondered why DD had gotten hurt - it would be helpful for Snape to know what DD had gotten into so he would know what to do. He could have gotten the ring from DD and been a hero for Voldemort. But he allowed it to be destroyed.
I just can't help looking at all the times Snape could have let Harry & DD die, not implicating himself, but he chose to "do the right thing" and come to their rescue. WHY WOULD HE DO THAT if he were on the "dark side"?
On p 598, HBP, Harry "...heard the hated voice shout, "It's over, time to go!" and saw Snape disappearing around the corner..." We are meant to believe that Snape's was the hated voice, but there are so many death eaters around, it could have been anyone.
On p 602, HBP, as Snape is repeatedly deflecting Harry's curses, he stops him from doing any unforgivable curses, once being described as using a "lazy flick of the arm". This is meant to give us a "negative" impression, but I feel it was used to show he was trying not to engage.
Snape pushes Harry to use the unspoken spells again, having stressed how important they are while they were in DADA class.
On p 603, HBP, "But before (Harry) could finish this jinx, excruciating pain hit Harry; he keeled over in the grass...Snape was going to torture him to death or madness--
" 'No!' roared Snape's voice and the pain stopped..."
Once again, Harry is making an assumption about Snape and it was proven wrong.
On the same page, Snape insists they leave Harry. "Potter belongs to the Dark Lord - we are to leave him!" Since when?? They worked so hard to get him alone in the GoF. Here's the perfect opportunity to capture him, yet Snape frees the castle grounds of all the Death Eaters, leaving Harry behind. HUH??? Wouldn't it have made more sense to take Harry with them? Snape's cover has already been "blown". Why not go for the gold? Especially after he has Harry's wand hexed away.
On p 607, HBP, Hagrid says, "Dumbledore musta told Snape ter go with them Death Eaters...I suppose he's gotta keep his cover." We're meant to disregard this statement.
Also, we don't know what was in the potion that DD had to drink to remove the locket, but if "RAB" survived long enough to not only remake it but to write a note that it had been destroyed, then couldn't that potion have some other powers to it as well?
Also, DD would certainly not want the students to suffer through losing him, so the phoenix song plays for a long, long time. p 614-5, HBP, "...the phoenix was singing in a way Harry had never heard before: a strickent lament of terrible beauty. And Harry felt, as he had felt about phoenix song before, that the music was inside him, not without: It was his own grief turned magically to song...it seemed to ease their pain a little to listen to the sound of their mourning..." Again, I feel the phoenix is assisting DD in recovering. I think it is also possible that DD is an animagus phoenix. So perhaps the reason that Harry doesn't recognize the phoenix song is because it is from a different animal. The sound comforts him. It could be that DD is sad that he has to leave the grounds & make everyone suffer by believing he is dead.
McGonagall says DD had an "iron-clad" reason for trusting Snape. There has to be something more to that....
p 616, HBP, McGonagall says, "I sent Filius to fetch Snape tonight...If I hadn't alerted Snape to what was going on..." If Snape really were a DE, he would have been in on their plan & there from the beginning, not waiting for a chance notice from someone.
p 617, HBP, Harry asks "So when (Snape) arrived at the fight, he joined in on the Death Eaters' side?" This question is never really answered. "It's all so confusing." No one ever saw Snape doing anything to any of the DA or OoP, with the exception of DD, & I truly believe that was pre-planned.
p 619, HBP, Hermione states that Snape must have stupefied Flitwick. If that was the case, why not stupefy Hermione & Luna as well? Instead, he asks them to help Flitwick - to make sure he was ok...
Snape is very skilled at Occlumency (a-clue-men-see???). Would he not be able to use those powers against Voldemort?
Again, p 645, HBP, (Just because it is so significant...) "Bright, white flames had erupted around Dumbledore's body, and the table upon which it lay...Harry thought, for one heart-stopping moment, that he saw a phoenix fly joyfully into the blue..." Notice he did not say Fawkes. He said a phoenix. And phoenixes rise from the ASHES.
P. 651, HBP, Harry to Ron & Hermione, "If Dumbledore was right -- and I'm sure he was..." Why is Harry so quick to believe DD about everything BUT Snape?
Any thoughts, anyone?
Jeannine
Hey Jeannine 
Nice to see this topic revived - it was a good one
And some excellent points you've raised there...just a few I'd like to give my little twitterings on...
[quote] My new thought here is that the issue they were arguing - what Dumbledore was taking for granted - was that the Snape was going to have to make it look like he was killing DD to save Malfoy. [/quote]
Whilst I agree with you that there was some kind of plan, I don't believe that this was the subject of their argument. I think that they were probably arguing about Snape's agreeing to make investigations, to keep an eye on Malfoy and so on - which obviously Snape was having trouble with because not only was he trying to maintain his own position within the DE's and do as Dumbledore had asked him to do, but he had the additional complication of having made the Vow, which I don't think Dumbledore knew about. It was becoming difficult, and a strain for him which was beginning to tell (Snape only coming close to any real emotions when angered...which isn't generally like him)
[quote]as I said in the original essay, "gazed" contridicts "revulsion" and "hatred". But those words, looked at another way, make sense. Snape gazes at DD in a "good-bye". The revulsion & hatred are for what he's being forced to do. [/quote]
Precisely. We could do with you over in the Snape's Official Trial thread in the Great Hall
[quote]Snape could have messed up with the "cure" for DD. Who would have been the wiser? Snape surely would have wondered why DD had gotten hurt - it would be helpful for Snape to know what DD had gotten into so he would know what to do. He could have gotten the ring from DD and been a hero for Voldemort. But he allowed it to be destroyed.
[/quote]
Mmm - remembering here that I'm on your side, and I do think Snape is innocent, but I don't think that even if he was evil, he could have ruined the cure for DD. Too many people would have become suspicious, so whilst I can see your logic, I don't think Snape had any option but to help him. However, and that's a big however, your second point caught me a bit off guard because I'm amazed I hadn't considered that a bit more. Not that he could have stopped DD, because I think, by that time, the ring had already been destroyed. But you're right - Snape probably would have needed to understand the nature of the curse in order to treat it. I have doubts about whether or not Snape knows about the horcruxes. It would depend largely on how much Dumbledore trusted him. And the faith he had in Snape's Occlumancy, of course. But you're absolutely right - if Snape had known about the horcruxes, and he really was faithful to Voldemort, then he would have told him that they were in danger. Either Voldemort would be so arrogant that he thinks the protections he has placed would be sufficient, or else he doesn't know...because he would have been in HBP a lot more trying to get them back.
[quote]On p 602, HBP, as Snape is repeatedly deflecting Harry's curses, he stops him from doing any unforgivable curses, once being described as using a "lazy flick of the arm". This is meant to give us a "negative" impression, but I feel it was used to show he was trying not to engage.[/quote]
Or it could mean that Snape is so confident in his own abilities that he never regarded Harry as a serious threat to him. However, I do think you're right - he certainly did have an excellent opportunity to grab Harry and drag him back to the DE's that he didn't take. If he'd had the foresight to know what was going to happen that night, he could have designed a portkey to whip them all away back to Voldemort very quickly. But he didn't - it seems that he didn't know what was going to happen. Which is very strange, considering that he's supposed to be Voldemort's right hand man. Or maybe he was just ordered not to get involved by *both* his masters, because of the unique position he was in to pass information both ways.
And I also find it strange that he spent time reiterating the importance of non verbal spells. Why give Harry advice like that? I mean, if someone's pointing a gun at you, threatening to kill you, and is mad enough to really see it through, do you say to him, 'hey, buddy, you know you've left the safety catch on, don't you? You be careful of the recoil now, don't want to go hurting that shoulder.'
I mean, come on...you don't help someone who's trying to kill you unless you happen to have a death wish.
[quote]Once again, Harry is making an assumption about Snape and it was proven wrong.
[/quote]
Now that is very interesting. Again, very right. A pattern that has been prevalent throughout the whole series.
[quote]On p 607, HBP, Hagrid says, "Dumbledore musta told Snape ter go with them Death Eaters...I suppose he's gotta keep his cover." We're meant to disregard this statement[/quote]
Which is precisely why JKR had Hagrid to say it - someone who Dumbledore had the utmost confidence in, and yet isn't always taken seriously by Harry and co, who think he's a few bananas short of a fruit basket most of the time, particularly when it comes to these magical creatures of his.
[quote]Snape is very skilled at Occlumency (a-clue-men-see???). [/quote]
That's an interesting observation, but I don't think there's anything there, sorry. Occlumancy is a variation on the word occult, which means hidden. Therefore occlumancy is the art of seeing what is hidden, i.e in a person's mind. I think that's all there is to it
[quote]
P. 651, HBP, Harry to Ron & Hermione, "If Dumbledore was right -- and I'm sure he was..." Why is Harry so quick to believe DD about everything BUT Snape?
[/quote]
Again, interesting observation. And very right. He has faith in everything Dumbledore told him, but he's still got to get over his own feelings about Snape in order to be able to see him as Dumbledore did.
You know, I've always had the sneakiest of suspicions that Snape's Patronus might just be a Phoenix....
Nice to see this topic revived - it was a good one
And some excellent points you've raised there...just a few I'd like to give my little twitterings on...
[quote] My new thought here is that the issue they were arguing - what Dumbledore was taking for granted - was that the Snape was going to have to make it look like he was killing DD to save Malfoy. [/quote]
Whilst I agree with you that there was some kind of plan, I don't believe that this was the subject of their argument. I think that they were probably arguing about Snape's agreeing to make investigations, to keep an eye on Malfoy and so on - which obviously Snape was having trouble with because not only was he trying to maintain his own position within the DE's and do as Dumbledore had asked him to do, but he had the additional complication of having made the Vow, which I don't think Dumbledore knew about. It was becoming difficult, and a strain for him which was beginning to tell (Snape only coming close to any real emotions when angered...which isn't generally like him)
[quote]as I said in the original essay, "gazed" contridicts "revulsion" and "hatred". But those words, looked at another way, make sense. Snape gazes at DD in a "good-bye". The revulsion & hatred are for what he's being forced to do. [/quote]
Precisely. We could do with you over in the Snape's Official Trial thread in the Great Hall
[quote]Snape could have messed up with the "cure" for DD. Who would have been the wiser? Snape surely would have wondered why DD had gotten hurt - it would be helpful for Snape to know what DD had gotten into so he would know what to do. He could have gotten the ring from DD and been a hero for Voldemort. But he allowed it to be destroyed.
[/quote]
Mmm - remembering here that I'm on your side, and I do think Snape is innocent, but I don't think that even if he was evil, he could have ruined the cure for DD. Too many people would have become suspicious, so whilst I can see your logic, I don't think Snape had any option but to help him. However, and that's a big however, your second point caught me a bit off guard because I'm amazed I hadn't considered that a bit more. Not that he could have stopped DD, because I think, by that time, the ring had already been destroyed. But you're right - Snape probably would have needed to understand the nature of the curse in order to treat it. I have doubts about whether or not Snape knows about the horcruxes. It would depend largely on how much Dumbledore trusted him. And the faith he had in Snape's Occlumancy, of course. But you're absolutely right - if Snape had known about the horcruxes, and he really was faithful to Voldemort, then he would have told him that they were in danger. Either Voldemort would be so arrogant that he thinks the protections he has placed would be sufficient, or else he doesn't know...because he would have been in HBP a lot more trying to get them back.
[quote]On p 602, HBP, as Snape is repeatedly deflecting Harry's curses, he stops him from doing any unforgivable curses, once being described as using a "lazy flick of the arm". This is meant to give us a "negative" impression, but I feel it was used to show he was trying not to engage.[/quote]
Or it could mean that Snape is so confident in his own abilities that he never regarded Harry as a serious threat to him. However, I do think you're right - he certainly did have an excellent opportunity to grab Harry and drag him back to the DE's that he didn't take. If he'd had the foresight to know what was going to happen that night, he could have designed a portkey to whip them all away back to Voldemort very quickly. But he didn't - it seems that he didn't know what was going to happen. Which is very strange, considering that he's supposed to be Voldemort's right hand man. Or maybe he was just ordered not to get involved by *both* his masters, because of the unique position he was in to pass information both ways.
And I also find it strange that he spent time reiterating the importance of non verbal spells. Why give Harry advice like that? I mean, if someone's pointing a gun at you, threatening to kill you, and is mad enough to really see it through, do you say to him, 'hey, buddy, you know you've left the safety catch on, don't you? You be careful of the recoil now, don't want to go hurting that shoulder.'
I mean, come on...you don't help someone who's trying to kill you unless you happen to have a death wish.[quote]Once again, Harry is making an assumption about Snape and it was proven wrong.
[/quote]
Now that is very interesting. Again, very right. A pattern that has been prevalent throughout the whole series.
[quote]On p 607, HBP, Hagrid says, "Dumbledore musta told Snape ter go with them Death Eaters...I suppose he's gotta keep his cover." We're meant to disregard this statement[/quote]
Which is precisely why JKR had Hagrid to say it - someone who Dumbledore had the utmost confidence in, and yet isn't always taken seriously by Harry and co, who think he's a few bananas short of a fruit basket most of the time, particularly when it comes to these magical creatures of his.
[quote]Snape is very skilled at Occlumency (a-clue-men-see???). [/quote]
That's an interesting observation, but I don't think there's anything there, sorry. Occlumancy is a variation on the word occult, which means hidden. Therefore occlumancy is the art of seeing what is hidden, i.e in a person's mind. I think that's all there is to it
[quote]
P. 651, HBP, Harry to Ron & Hermione, "If Dumbledore was right -- and I'm sure he was..." Why is Harry so quick to believe DD about everything BUT Snape?
[/quote]
Again, interesting observation. And very right. He has faith in everything Dumbledore told him, but he's still got to get over his own feelings about Snape in order to be able to see him as Dumbledore did.
You know, I've always had the sneakiest of suspicions that Snape's Patronus might just be a Phoenix....
Hi there Michelle. Thanks for letting me know you're glad to see it back - I'm (in case it wasn't abundantly obvious!!) quite passionate on the subject. It's nice to see other people taking an interest. 
Ok, so on to your comments - I think we would make a great team! You looked at things differently than I did and gave new insights to the things I'd thought of.
For the Snape / DD argument - I guess there's really room to speculate here. The one thing we know for certain is that we DON'T know what they're arguing about, but that it isn't what it seems. The DE theory was my initial thought, but when I read the book again, months later, already being suspicious, that thought came to mind as well. For all we know, there was much more to the argument than that and ALL the points were covered
As far as the Snape / DD-cure / Horcrux scenario is concerned, especially with DD being in a weakened state, I'm sure Snape would have been able to extract the info about the Horcrux from DD through Occlumency even if DD didn't tell him (which, as we both agree) is unlikely because of the whole "needing info to make the cure" thing). Regardless of any of that, I agree that Snape would have let Voldemort know that DD had discovered this Horcrux and Snape & Voldemort would have been more vigilant about protecting the others. Now we don't know at what point "RAB" discovered the locket, but the fact that Harry & DD were able to get into the cave -- for the most part -- unscathed until the very end, leads me to believe no one on the "dark side" has any idea that these are being sought out.
In terms of Snape "ruining" the cure - he didn't have to sabotage it - he might have just "not found one". Although he did get further info from everyone. But in all likelihood, no one knew what was going on, so for Snape to have let DD die or worsen or whatever, it wouldn't be entirely impossible. I agree it may have made people suspicious, but everyone has their limits. Maybe Snape has a "saving people thing" too.... I just can't get over how many times Snape has had opportunity & motive to let people go, but he keeps on saving them...
As for the "lazy flicking" at first glance, I would have agreed with you, except that by this point, I think everyone, Snape included, knows that Harry is a force to be reckoned with. He's defied Voldemort. He's had private "tutoring". He got loads of O.W.L.s. He taught DADA better than any of the other teachers. I think Snape is doing it to be annoying and to that we're being asked to follow Harry's thinking about how "bad" Snape is.
I had to laugh at your next thought on the killer. I teach karate & that's one of the things we always joke about. "Excuse me, Mr. Mugger (or Ms. Mugger, not to be stereotyping....) do you mind grabbing me with your other hand? I haven't practiced it this way." I wholeheartedly agree with you.
I agree with you that that's why Rowling had Hagrid say it. We're meant to disregard it
I agree with your meaning & I can't take credit for the phoenetic spelling. I read that, I believe, in one of the "sleuthing" books. But I think Rowling is toying with us - A clue men see - I'm certainly digging for clues here and seeing things in a whole new way ;0)
I read somewhere (on Veritaserum) a thread about Snape being a phoenix. Have to give that one more thought. I'm convinced DD is. Guess we'll never know - hopefully we'll have the answers in the next book. Nary a whisper of when that will be!!
Also, I'm finally getting back to re-reading some of the older posts - don't know if Evelien is still around Post 74 but I just read yours and came across the hatred & revulsion part - I NEVER caught that!!! That CAN'T be a coincidence. Thank you for pointing that out!!
Ok, so on to your comments - I think we would make a great team! You looked at things differently than I did and gave new insights to the things I'd thought of.
For the Snape / DD argument - I guess there's really room to speculate here. The one thing we know for certain is that we DON'T know what they're arguing about, but that it isn't what it seems. The DE theory was my initial thought, but when I read the book again, months later, already being suspicious, that thought came to mind as well. For all we know, there was much more to the argument than that and ALL the points were covered
As far as the Snape / DD-cure / Horcrux scenario is concerned, especially with DD being in a weakened state, I'm sure Snape would have been able to extract the info about the Horcrux from DD through Occlumency even if DD didn't tell him (which, as we both agree) is unlikely because of the whole "needing info to make the cure" thing). Regardless of any of that, I agree that Snape would have let Voldemort know that DD had discovered this Horcrux and Snape & Voldemort would have been more vigilant about protecting the others. Now we don't know at what point "RAB" discovered the locket, but the fact that Harry & DD were able to get into the cave -- for the most part -- unscathed until the very end, leads me to believe no one on the "dark side" has any idea that these are being sought out.
In terms of Snape "ruining" the cure - he didn't have to sabotage it - he might have just "not found one". Although he did get further info from everyone. But in all likelihood, no one knew what was going on, so for Snape to have let DD die or worsen or whatever, it wouldn't be entirely impossible. I agree it may have made people suspicious, but everyone has their limits. Maybe Snape has a "saving people thing" too.... I just can't get over how many times Snape has had opportunity & motive to let people go, but he keeps on saving them...
As for the "lazy flicking" at first glance, I would have agreed with you, except that by this point, I think everyone, Snape included, knows that Harry is a force to be reckoned with. He's defied Voldemort. He's had private "tutoring". He got loads of O.W.L.s. He taught DADA better than any of the other teachers. I think Snape is doing it to be annoying and to that we're being asked to follow Harry's thinking about how "bad" Snape is.
I had to laugh at your next thought on the killer. I teach karate & that's one of the things we always joke about. "Excuse me, Mr. Mugger (or Ms. Mugger, not to be stereotyping....) do you mind grabbing me with your other hand? I haven't practiced it this way." I wholeheartedly agree with you.
I agree with you that that's why Rowling had Hagrid say it. We're meant to disregard it
I agree with your meaning & I can't take credit for the phoenetic spelling. I read that, I believe, in one of the "sleuthing" books. But I think Rowling is toying with us - A clue men see - I'm certainly digging for clues here and seeing things in a whole new way ;0)
I read somewhere (on Veritaserum) a thread about Snape being a phoenix. Have to give that one more thought. I'm convinced DD is. Guess we'll never know - hopefully we'll have the answers in the next book. Nary a whisper of when that will be!!
Also, I'm finally getting back to re-reading some of the older posts - don't know if Evelien is still around Post 74 but I just read yours and came across the hatred & revulsion part - I NEVER caught that!!! That CAN'T be a coincidence. Thank you for pointing that out!!
Well, I'm back again
Thank you for your message Jeannine!
Again, I'm sorry if my english is not correct.
First I would like to response on some of your things.
The discussion between snape and DD: I think it could be DD wanting Snape to help him to fake his death. I don't think they had planned everything of it, (like you said with your karate example ) so it would still be very dangerous, and that is why Snape would not want to do it, because he is afraid it will go wrong and that DD would really die. I think that is what they are arguing about.
I don't think Snape knows what DD knows about the horcruxes, because even though Snaoe is a very good occlumens, DD is still better. I think that even though DD's body was weak, his mind was still very strong. I can't remember anything that tell's me that DD cant think straight anymore, well, except for in the cave while drinking the potion.
The lazy flick: i think you are right about making us feel like harry does towards snape, but i also think it shows the strength of snape. Harry has fought with deatheaters, ad most of them were having trouble fighting him. Snape was not having any trouble fighting harry. It shows that Snape is one of the most powerfull wizards. He doesn't have to do his upmost best to fight Harry, he could easily win (I think this is partly because Harry's anger at the time, he couldn't concentrate) . Ofcourse, Voldemort is even stronger than Snape, so I really wonder if Harry will be able to beat Voldemort, but that is another topic.
I reread my last post on this forum, and i wanted to add something, because in my post i said there was something missing in the UK version that was in the USA version. I have'n't really explained that part, so I will do now, because i think it is very important and i would like to know what you think about it.
In the UK version, when dumbledore is talking to malfoy about not killing him, he says:
"He told me to do it or he'll kill me. I've got not choice." "Come over to the right side, Draco, and we can hide you more completely than you can possibly imagine. What is more, I can send members of the Order to your mother tonight to hide her likewise. Your father is safe at the moment in Azkaban...when the time comes we can protect him too...come over to the right side, Draco...you are not a killer..." Malfoy stared at Dumbledore. (HBP UK Edition pg 552)
But in the USA version, he says:
"He told me to do it or he'll kill me. I've got no choice." "He cannot kill you if you are already dead. Come over to the right side Draco, and we can hide you more completely than you can possibly imagine. What is more, I can send members of the Order to your mother tonight to hide her likewise. Nobody would be surprised that you had died in your attempt to kill me -- forgive me, but Lord Voldemort probably expects it. Nor would the Death Eaters be surprised that we had captured and killed your mother -- it is what they would do themselves, after all. Your father is safe at the moment in Azkaban...When the time comes we can protect him too. Come over to the right side, Draco...you are not a killer..." Malfoy stared at Dumbledore. (HBP US Edition pg 591)
Isn't that strange? It is like the USA version was the original version, and JKR thought, after sending the book, that this clue would be too obvious, and than cut it out of the book, but she was too late for the american version.
i think it is pretty obvious in the american version, that DD it trying to persuade Malfoy to pretend he is dead so that Voldemort won't come after him, and so that he can be perfectly protected by the order.
Couldn't it be that this is exactly the plan DD had for himself, but without the prtection of the OOTF ofcourse?
That's what i think anyway...
I also noticed something about DD's wand. I don't now if it is mentioned before, but where is DD's wand at the funeral? At the funeral of Aragog, Hargid and Slughorn sing a song about a wizard:
And Odo the hero, they bore him back home,
To the place that he'd known as a lad,
They laid him to rest with his hat inside out
And his wand snapped in two, which was sad. (HBP pg 456)
It seems to me that a wizard's wand was very important, and for a wizard as powerfull as dumbledore even more, i think. So why wasn't his wand at the funeral? Why wasn't his wand snapped in two? Unless he would need his wand another time, to find the other horcruxes or to fight Voldemort...
Well, let me know what you think about it!
Thank you for your message Jeannine!
Again, I'm sorry if my english is not correct.
First I would like to response on some of your things.
The discussion between snape and DD: I think it could be DD wanting Snape to help him to fake his death. I don't think they had planned everything of it, (like you said with your karate example
) so it would still be very dangerous, and that is why Snape would not want to do it, because he is afraid it will go wrong and that DD would really die. I think that is what they are arguing about. I don't think Snape knows what DD knows about the horcruxes, because even though Snaoe is a very good occlumens, DD is still better. I think that even though DD's body was weak, his mind was still very strong. I can't remember anything that tell's me that DD cant think straight anymore, well, except for in the cave while drinking the potion.
The lazy flick: i think you are right about making us feel like harry does towards snape, but i also think it shows the strength of snape. Harry has fought with deatheaters, ad most of them were having trouble fighting him. Snape was not having any trouble fighting harry. It shows that Snape is one of the most powerfull wizards. He doesn't have to do his upmost best to fight Harry, he could easily win (I think this is partly because Harry's anger at the time, he couldn't concentrate) . Ofcourse, Voldemort is even stronger than Snape, so I really wonder if Harry will be able to beat Voldemort, but that is another topic.
I reread my last post on this forum, and i wanted to add something, because in my post i said there was something missing in the UK version that was in the USA version. I have'n't really explained that part, so I will do now, because i think it is very important and i would like to know what you think about it.
In the UK version, when dumbledore is talking to malfoy about not killing him, he says:
"He told me to do it or he'll kill me. I've got not choice." "Come over to the right side, Draco, and we can hide you more completely than you can possibly imagine. What is more, I can send members of the Order to your mother tonight to hide her likewise. Your father is safe at the moment in Azkaban...when the time comes we can protect him too...come over to the right side, Draco...you are not a killer..." Malfoy stared at Dumbledore. (HBP UK Edition pg 552)
But in the USA version, he says:
"He told me to do it or he'll kill me. I've got no choice." "He cannot kill you if you are already dead. Come over to the right side Draco, and we can hide you more completely than you can possibly imagine. What is more, I can send members of the Order to your mother tonight to hide her likewise. Nobody would be surprised that you had died in your attempt to kill me -- forgive me, but Lord Voldemort probably expects it. Nor would the Death Eaters be surprised that we had captured and killed your mother -- it is what they would do themselves, after all. Your father is safe at the moment in Azkaban...When the time comes we can protect him too. Come over to the right side, Draco...you are not a killer..." Malfoy stared at Dumbledore. (HBP US Edition pg 591)
Isn't that strange? It is like the USA version was the original version, and JKR thought, after sending the book, that this clue would be too obvious, and than cut it out of the book, but she was too late for the american version.
i think it is pretty obvious in the american version, that DD it trying to persuade Malfoy to pretend he is dead so that Voldemort won't come after him, and so that he can be perfectly protected by the order.
Couldn't it be that this is exactly the plan DD had for himself, but without the prtection of the OOTF ofcourse?
That's what i think anyway...
I also noticed something about DD's wand. I don't now if it is mentioned before, but where is DD's wand at the funeral? At the funeral of Aragog, Hargid and Slughorn sing a song about a wizard:
And Odo the hero, they bore him back home,
To the place that he'd known as a lad,
They laid him to rest with his hat inside out
And his wand snapped in two, which was sad. (HBP pg 456)
It seems to me that a wizard's wand was very important, and for a wizard as powerfull as dumbledore even more, i think. So why wasn't his wand at the funeral? Why wasn't his wand snapped in two? Unless he would need his wand another time, to find the other horcruxes or to fight Voldemort...
Well, let me know what you think about it!
Wow. I never knew about those difference between the US and UK editions. How interesting. How arrogant of the publishers, that they feel the clue needed to be dumbed down. How annoying!
Still, it's something to ponder. Perhaps this text does have the function to hint at the possibility of Dumbledore not being dead. I still think that there is more that hints at Dumbledore definitely having passed on, but we all know how much Jo Rowling likes to toy with her readers . . .
I've read a lot of books in my life, but I've never had a reading experience like Harry Potter before, hanging on the author's lips for years and having a fun time not falling into her traps.
I'll really be sorry when the series is finally done and all mysteries are solved.
Sure, Jo Rowling is framing her characters. Not just Dumbledore and Snape, but all of them.
Still, it's something to ponder. Perhaps this text does have the function to hint at the possibility of Dumbledore not being dead. I still think that there is more that hints at Dumbledore definitely having passed on, but we all know how much Jo Rowling likes to toy with her readers . . .
I've read a lot of books in my life, but I've never had a reading experience like Harry Potter before, hanging on the author's lips for years and having a fun time not falling into her traps.
I'll really be sorry when the series is finally done and all mysteries are solved.
Sure, Jo Rowling is framing her characters. Not just Dumbledore and Snape, but all of them.
Evelien - your English is just fine ;0) Much better than my Dutch!!
I agree that they could have been arguing about the plan - so many parts of it. It's really hard to know.
As far as Snape knowing about the Horcruxes, I think DD may have said something to him just so he (Snape) would be able to help find some sort of a cure for the poison from the ring. The odd thing, though, is that McGonagall doesn't seem to know and I have a hard time thinking that DD would have told Snape before McGonagall. However, it is Snape and only Snape that DD asks for when they return from the second Horcrux adventure. Anyone have any other thoughts on that?
I think there's more to the "lazy" flicking. I really believe that Harry is stronger than Snape. The book keeps making a point to say how powerful Harry is - everyone is shocked to hear he can cast a full Patronus. Rowling made it a point to let us know the Hungarian Horntail was the hardest dragon to beat and Harry did it. He's got all the kids practicing & accomplishing spells they couldn't before do. When Harry puts his mind to it, he can be great. I know he has his "moments" in other classes where Hermione seems to outshine him, but overall, he has held his own against every task ever set before him.
I think that the biggest point is that sometimes the simple things will work the best. At the first DADA meeting (at the Hogs Head) someone snaps that the expelliramus (I'm not sure if I'm spelling that right - don't have the book here!) spell wouldn't work and Harry says he used it effectively against Voldemort. The room fell silent. It's like they all want to learn all of these really complicated spells, but the simple ones work because they're just that - simple.
But getting back to it, the big thing is Snape didn't try to curse or hex Harry even once. Nor did he cast anything at anyone else, DE or Phoenix member. But he (Snape) doesn't even seem phased by Harry's torrent of spells. He is blocking them (so they must be effective) but the blocking is described as "lazy" - I think that it's meant to throw more "bad light" on Snape without really making him bad.
As far as the part that was in the US version but not the UK. WOW! I never knew that! I like your way of thinking though. If everyone thinks DD is dead, no one would be looking for him, he would be absolutely protected and would have the freedom to hunt for the Horcruxes. I don't know that we'll see much of DD in the next book, save a fleeting, "It looked like DD..." But maybe he & Harry (and Sirius) can re-unite at the end, thus making the "happy" ending (I can't help but think that Harry will overcome Voldemort...)
As far as why it was left out - that's a real mystery. I agree with how it seems the US version was done first and it was edited out of the UK version. Very weird. Anyone else have any thoughts on that?
I'd forgotten all about that little song. But you make a very interesting point. DD would have had his wand with him when he fell. Unless someone removed it or something after the fact. I wonder if you need to have your wand to do all magic? For example, several times they have done "Lumos" or "Accio Wand" to find a wand. Interesting - wonder if it's an accidental oversight or a deliberate omission?
If only we could use Legilmency on Jo....
And Bumblebee, I have to agree with you - I have never had an experience like reading HP. My students got me started on them and I liked them because they were "simple" - so I thought. I remember laughing at all the mahem when GoF came out - "I'm so glad I'M not having to be involved in all that...." But after reading them, I needed more! I have been at both midnight releases with kids in tow and read OoP & HBP within a day of release. I read in a Forbes magazine article that Jo "will likely explore other parts of the Potter milieu". Now wouldn't that be fantastic....
I agree that they could have been arguing about the plan - so many parts of it. It's really hard to know.
As far as Snape knowing about the Horcruxes, I think DD may have said something to him just so he (Snape) would be able to help find some sort of a cure for the poison from the ring. The odd thing, though, is that McGonagall doesn't seem to know and I have a hard time thinking that DD would have told Snape before McGonagall. However, it is Snape and only Snape that DD asks for when they return from the second Horcrux adventure. Anyone have any other thoughts on that?
I think there's more to the "lazy" flicking. I really believe that Harry is stronger than Snape. The book keeps making a point to say how powerful Harry is - everyone is shocked to hear he can cast a full Patronus. Rowling made it a point to let us know the Hungarian Horntail was the hardest dragon to beat and Harry did it. He's got all the kids practicing & accomplishing spells they couldn't before do. When Harry puts his mind to it, he can be great. I know he has his "moments" in other classes where Hermione seems to outshine him, but overall, he has held his own against every task ever set before him.
I think that the biggest point is that sometimes the simple things will work the best. At the first DADA meeting (at the Hogs Head) someone snaps that the expelliramus (I'm not sure if I'm spelling that right - don't have the book here!) spell wouldn't work and Harry says he used it effectively against Voldemort. The room fell silent. It's like they all want to learn all of these really complicated spells, but the simple ones work because they're just that - simple.
But getting back to it, the big thing is Snape didn't try to curse or hex Harry even once. Nor did he cast anything at anyone else, DE or Phoenix member. But he (Snape) doesn't even seem phased by Harry's torrent of spells. He is blocking them (so they must be effective) but the blocking is described as "lazy" - I think that it's meant to throw more "bad light" on Snape without really making him bad.
As far as the part that was in the US version but not the UK. WOW! I never knew that! I like your way of thinking though. If everyone thinks DD is dead, no one would be looking for him, he would be absolutely protected and would have the freedom to hunt for the Horcruxes. I don't know that we'll see much of DD in the next book, save a fleeting, "It looked like DD..." But maybe he & Harry (and Sirius) can re-unite at the end, thus making the "happy" ending (I can't help but think that Harry will overcome Voldemort...)
As far as why it was left out - that's a real mystery. I agree with how it seems the US version was done first and it was edited out of the UK version. Very weird. Anyone else have any thoughts on that?
I'd forgotten all about that little song. But you make a very interesting point. DD would have had his wand with him when he fell. Unless someone removed it or something after the fact. I wonder if you need to have your wand to do all magic? For example, several times they have done "Lumos" or "Accio Wand" to find a wand. Interesting - wonder if it's an accidental oversight or a deliberate omission?
If only we could use Legilmency on Jo....
And Bumblebee, I have to agree with you - I have never had an experience like reading HP. My students got me started on them and I liked them because they were "simple" - so I thought. I remember laughing at all the mahem when GoF came out - "I'm so glad I'M not having to be involved in all that...." But after reading them, I needed more! I have been at both midnight releases with kids in tow and read OoP & HBP within a day of release. I read in a Forbes magazine article that Jo "will likely explore other parts of the Potter milieu". Now wouldn't that be fantastic....
QUOTE
The odd thing, though, is that McGonagall doesn't seem to know and I have a hard time thinking that DD would have told Snape before McGonagall.
Prof. McGonagall is a fine caring person, but she is unfortunately a gossip. In PoA Harry finds out about Siruis being his godfather when McGonagall tells Rosmerta & Fudge! DD can not under any circumstances let a clue of what’s really going on to her.
QUOTE
Snape gazes at DD in a "good-bye". The revulsion & hatred are for what he's being forced to do.
Sorry I in no way believe in DD’s “It’s ok to murder me Snape.” theory. It is called “Unforgivable”. Just play it out in your head. It’s ridiculous.
SS - I know you’ll understand this problem of mine DD. Over the break I made an Unbreakable Vow to kill you.
DD – That’s okay Severus. I’m not long for the world with this arm. Just use an Unforgivable Curse on me and it will be fine for you to be a murderer. I’m sure everyone will understand and forgive you. Take care of LV for me while I’m dead trusted friend.
SS – Taking care of the Dark Lord is what I live for.
Going back to the thing about DD's wand - on p 584, after Malfoy does the "expelliarmus" spell, "...by the light of the Mark, he saw Dumbledore's wand flying in an arc over the edge of the ramparts and understood..." To my knowledge, we don't hear about his wand again... Hmmm...
Next
Hi there Vortext.
Interesting thought about McGonagall & the gossip. Hadn't thought about it before, but it's a valid point
But in terms of the unbreakable vow that Snape made:
p 36 HBP:
The vows Snape makes:
"Will you, Severus, watch over my son, Draco, as he attempts to fulfill the Dark Lord's wishes?"
"I will," said Snape.
"...will you, to the best of your ability, protect him from harm?"
"I will," said Snape.
"And, should it prove necessary... if it seems Draco will fail..." (Snape's had twitched, but did not draw away), "will you carry out the deed that the Dark Lord has ordered Draco to perform?"
"I will," said Snape.
[center]* * * * *
[left]So what I'm reading out of that is that Snape has agreed to watch over and protect Draco, which he does, and to carry out ... the deed ..."
At first glance, after reading the book, the deed appears to be to kill DD. But what exactly is "the deed". Is it to get the DE's into Hogwarts or is it to kill DD? On p 152, Malfoy says, "Maybe (Voldemort) doesn't care if I'm qualified. Maybe the job he wants me to do isn't something that you need to be qualified for," said Malfoy quietly. The problem here is, if VOLDEMORT & his DE's can't defeat DD, then why would he send MALFOY?? I think that Malfoy's task may have simply been to let the DE's in - the first thing we saw him doing was looking into the cabinets at Borgin & Burkes.
On p 588, Malfoy is arguing with DD and he's bragging on the Room of Requirement. "But I haven't told (Snape) what I've been doing in the Room of Requirement, he's going to wak up tomorrow and it'll al be over and he won't be the Dark Lord's favorite anymore, he'll be nothing compared to me, nothing!"
Sounds to me like he's bragging about the cabinet, not killing DD. The odd thing is, he's also bragging about the necklace & bottle of wine, though he denied any part of them to Snape. Something more for us to muddle through....
Next
Hi there Vortext.
Interesting thought about McGonagall & the gossip. Hadn't thought about it before, but it's a valid point
But in terms of the unbreakable vow that Snape made:
p 36 HBP:
The vows Snape makes:
"Will you, Severus, watch over my son, Draco, as he attempts to fulfill the Dark Lord's wishes?"
"I will," said Snape.
"...will you, to the best of your ability, protect him from harm?"
"I will," said Snape.
"And, should it prove necessary... if it seems Draco will fail..." (Snape's had twitched, but did not draw away), "will you carry out the deed that the Dark Lord has ordered Draco to perform?"
"I will," said Snape.
[center]* * * * *
[left]So what I'm reading out of that is that Snape has agreed to watch over and protect Draco, which he does, and to carry out ... the deed ..."
At first glance, after reading the book, the deed appears to be to kill DD. But what exactly is "the deed". Is it to get the DE's into Hogwarts or is it to kill DD? On p 152, Malfoy says, "Maybe (Voldemort) doesn't care if I'm qualified. Maybe the job he wants me to do isn't something that you need to be qualified for," said Malfoy quietly. The problem here is, if VOLDEMORT & his DE's can't defeat DD, then why would he send MALFOY?? I think that Malfoy's task may have simply been to let the DE's in - the first thing we saw him doing was looking into the cabinets at Borgin & Burkes.
On p 588, Malfoy is arguing with DD and he's bragging on the Room of Requirement. "But I haven't told (Snape) what I've been doing in the Room of Requirement, he's going to wak up tomorrow and it'll al be over and he won't be the Dark Lord's favorite anymore, he'll be nothing compared to me, nothing!"
Sounds to me like he's bragging about the cabinet, not killing DD. The odd thing is, he's also bragging about the necklace & bottle of wine, though he denied any part of them to Snape. Something more for us to muddle through....
Trotting back to fetch and fuss on your wand worries Jeannine
To my knowledge LV would be expecting a little souvenir of that day. It's his way remember? DD’s wand would be a fine gift to present to the Dark Lord.
Dark, dark magic. Child killing parent, student killing Headmaster - same ugly scene. After getting nailed with ‘old magic’ on the A.K. with parent saving child, LV is doing his own twisted back version.
QUOTE
To my knowledge, we don't hear about his wand again... Hmmm...
To my knowledge LV would be expecting a little souvenir of that day. It's his way remember? DD’s wand would be a fine gift to present to the Dark Lord.
QUOTE
Maybe the job he wants me to do isn't something that you need to be qualified for," said Malfoy quietly. The problem here is, if VOLDEMORT & his DE's can't defeat DD, then why would he send MALFOY??
Dark, dark magic. Child killing parent, student killing Headmaster - same ugly scene. After getting nailed with ‘old magic’ on the A.K. with parent saving child, LV is doing his own twisted back version.
Interesting theory - have to toss that one around for a bit ;0)
MOD EDIT: HI there. Please visit the forum rules before posting again. One line posts are not permitted. Please elaborate next time. Thanks.
MOD EDIT: HI there.
Please visit the forum rules before posting again. One line posts are not permitted. Please elaborate next time. Thanks.
QUOTE(bubotuber_pus @ Jul 27 2005, 01:00 PM) [snapback]85172[/snapback]
I always repeat that this phoenix must mean something important, because the order has a name "the Order of Phoenix", and the phoenix is a bird which can live again from its ashes. DD's funeral was significant, his body burnt itself and then Harry saw something like phoenix. It must mean something important!
We don't know if, f. ex. DD can change is an animagus, we don't know what Fawkes exactly can, we don't know so many things... but we know that Voldemort didn't appreciate Phoenixes, as he laughed at this bird in HP1.
well, traditionally the phoenix represents rebirth and i'm sure that rebirth was the intended sybolism after dumbledore's death and at his funeral. however, that rebirth does not necissarily mean that dumbledore will be "reborn" or come back to life...it may just mean that harry will kill voldemort and the wizarding community will go through a rebirth. while it is possible that dumbledore was an animangus and could turn into a phoenix, it seems impossible that he could turn into fawks as harry has seen them in the same room on many occcasions. also, if dumbledore was an animangus, hermione would have know because she looked up all of the registered animanguses...it seems like she would have mentioned it to harry and ron if dumbledore was one.
I agree it the phoenix may symoblize something more than just DD. But as far as the 7 registered animagi, we know that McGonagall is one, but that leaves 6 others. We already know of at least 5 unregistered ones. Personally, I don't believe DD would be unregistered - he's too ethical for that!! But Hermione never did mention who any of the 7 are. It was never brought up. So it is still possible, though I think it would be harder to fake his own death if he was registered. It still leaves the question, why is it the Order of the PHOENIX? Why not of the owl or the cat or the toad? DD is in charge of it, it's his order. I know they have used Fawkes to communicate (and I too, don't believe that DD is Fawkes for the same reasons) but it seems weird to name a whole order after a mode of communication.
PS Sorry about the one-liner. Forgot the rule... (All I really just wanted to let the previous person know that I had read the response & that I would truly be tossing it around a bit. Whoops!!)
PS Sorry about the one-liner. Forgot the rule... (All I really just wanted to let the previous person know that I had read the response & that I would truly be tossing it around a bit. Whoops!!)
Hey now! You’d think they’d cut you some leeway Jeannine after massive post-ation, but whoops. And now it looks like this Slytherin got you to forget the rules. Blearily I gaze at my PM box. Look, the most valuable thing on the net is information. But you know what? don’t bother considering my own speculative ruminations. At least not on this thread. Stick to text and what you should already know.
*preciously singing*
Hey Jo! Where you going with that pen in your hand?
DD taught Transfiguration before Prof. McGonnagall.
I’m gonna A.K. Dumbledore right of the tower
caught him trying mess around with a Dark Lord! (and it hurts)
*guitar solo*
*preciously singing*
Hey Jo! Where you going with that pen in your hand?
DD taught Transfiguration before Prof. McGonnagall.
I’m gonna A.K. Dumbledore right of the tower
caught him trying mess around with a Dark Lord! (and it hurts)
*guitar solo*
Nice research Jeannine, I read through the whole post I don't think DD is dead, and that phoenix has to be significant. You can't tell me that DD, the most powerful wizard of the age, doesn't know how to be an animagus... He even taught transfig. before mcgonagall, and it just seems obvious to me that he would become a phoenix.
I don't think DD is dead, and that phoenix has to be significant. You can't tell me that DD, the most powerful wizard of the age, doesn't know how to be an animagus... He even taught transfig. before mcgonagall, and it just seems obvious to me that he would become a phoenix.
Aha - so that's two people reminding me that DD taught Transfiguration before McGonagall. That has to be significant somehow - precisely because it was an "obscure" piece of "trivia" that Rowling left for us. To me, it's strangely reminiscent of discovering who Nicholas Flammel was based on a seemingly inconsequential piece of information Harry picked up on the chocolate frogs card. (Sadly, I was at Toys R Us recently and picked up a couple of chocolate frogs. Imagine my surprise when I realized they were TWO DOLLARS A PIECE!!)
Can anyone pinpoint where it was that we learn that DD taught transfiguration? Or where we learned about the 7 registered animagi? (Everyone keeps talking about how there are only 7 of them, but remember there are at least 5 UN-registered animagi that we KNOW of. We know more about the unregistered ones than the "legal" ones....) Maybe by context we can get more info that we would have overlooked before we got to knowing why phoenixes are so important - and that there was more than one of them. I just cannot believe that one of the most powerful wizards ever would not have the ability to transfigure....
And thanks Tennismaster - and anyone else who did it - for having the where-with-all to make it through the whole post! I was so into it when I wrote it and then I left it behind for a while. When I came back and re-read it (so I didn't duplicate any of these "new" conclusions I was having) I had a hard time making it all the way through myself! Great job to those who managed ;0)
I'd love to take credit for this, but I was browsing through another site (The Half-Blood Prince MAJOR SPOILERS by Matthew) and someone (kcorp) mentioned that to the DE's knowledge, Snape, Malfoy & the other DEs were the only ones to be present when Snape "killed" DD - remember Harry was invisible. If that is the case, why did Snape run away? Supposedly, no one knew anything about Snape being involved. He could have gone on spying at Hogwarts, but instead he chose to flee with Draco, ensuring that he was able to keep his unbreakable vow of protecting Draco. Why run??
Thanks ;0)
Jeannine
Can anyone pinpoint where it was that we learn that DD taught transfiguration? Or where we learned about the 7 registered animagi? (Everyone keeps talking about how there are only 7 of them, but remember there are at least 5 UN-registered animagi that we KNOW of. We know more about the unregistered ones than the "legal" ones....) Maybe by context we can get more info that we would have overlooked before we got to knowing why phoenixes are so important - and that there was more than one of them. I just cannot believe that one of the most powerful wizards ever would not have the ability to transfigure....
And thanks Tennismaster - and anyone else who did it - for having the where-with-all to make it through the whole post! I was so into it when I wrote it and then I left it behind for a while. When I came back and re-read it (so I didn't duplicate any of these "new" conclusions I was having) I had a hard time making it all the way through myself! Great job to those who managed ;0)
I'd love to take credit for this, but I was browsing through another site (The Half-Blood Prince MAJOR SPOILERS by Matthew) and someone (kcorp) mentioned that to the DE's knowledge, Snape, Malfoy & the other DEs were the only ones to be present when Snape "killed" DD - remember Harry was invisible. If that is the case, why did Snape run away? Supposedly, no one knew anything about Snape being involved. He could have gone on spying at Hogwarts, but instead he chose to flee with Draco, ensuring that he was able to keep his unbreakable vow of protecting Draco. Why run??
Thanks ;0)
Jeannine
QUOTE
Imagine my surprise when I realized they were TWO DOLLARS A PIECE!
What a crime. I cut a deal with the Card & Party manager and scored a box 75% off.
QUOTE
and anyone else who did it - for having the where-with-all to make it through the whole post!
Actually a ‘thanks to you’ for typing it up. Got a hardcopy and stowed a word doc for my future use.
QUOTE
Can anyone pinpoint where it was that we learn that DD taught transfiguration? Or where we learned about the 7 registered animagi?
I think it was CoS. But DD is very old and may have bypassed the register by it simply not existing at the time.
QUOTE
why did Snape run away? Supposedly, no one knew anything about Snape being involved. …etc… Why run??
Hmm, you asked that one earlier as well. It’s because LV is expecting his presence. I could say more but…*sad guitar slyo*
Hi there Vortext -
I'll have to check around and see if I can find some more chocolate frog cards somewhere a little less ... pricey? It was the first time we'd seen them, so there was the novelty factor - which was soon replaced by the horrified factor!!
I feel honored that you thought enough of it to even intend to do something with it! After the work I put into it, it's nice to feel that someone appreciated it ;0)
Never thought about the old "grandfathered in" clause. Hmmm... I just cannot believe that DD would NOT be an animagus.
I'm still not convinced that it was LV expecting Snape's presence. Snape wouldn't have to RUN. There would have been a moment of celebration or high-fiving or whatever DE's do to congratulate each other. I would think LV would be ok with that. I really don't think he would have run - he'd have wreaked more havoc, taken out some members of the Order - especially a Weasley or two. Hermione maybe (though she was in his office...). But especially Harry - why didn't he "kidnap" Harry - prime opportunity and he walked ... ok RAN ... away. It doesn't add up.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
Jeannine
I'll have to check around and see if I can find some more chocolate frog cards somewhere a little less ... pricey? It was the first time we'd seen them, so there was the novelty factor - which was soon replaced by the horrified factor!!
I feel honored that you thought enough of it to even intend to do something with it! After the work I put into it, it's nice to feel that someone appreciated it ;0)
Never thought about the old "grandfathered in" clause. Hmmm... I just cannot believe that DD would NOT be an animagus.
I'm still not convinced that it was LV expecting Snape's presence. Snape wouldn't have to RUN. There would have been a moment of celebration or high-fiving or whatever DE's do to congratulate each other. I would think LV would be ok with that. I really don't think he would have run - he'd have wreaked more havoc, taken out some members of the Order - especially a Weasley or two. Hermione maybe (though she was in his office...). But especially Harry - why didn't he "kidnap" Harry - prime opportunity and he walked ... ok RAN ... away. It doesn't add up.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
Jeannine
QUOTE(Jeannine @ Jun 21 2006, 05:30 PM) [snapback]194953[/snapback]
Can anyone pinpoint where it was that we learn that DD taught transfiguration?
vortex is right that the transfiguration info is in cos...tom riddle says that dumbledore was his transfiguration teacher. however, the animangus info is in poa.
Good point, Jeannine. I was wondering that myself. They had just killed Albus Dumbledore the only person Voldemort was afraid of. Now that he’s gone, why not pick off a few more Members of the Order and throw a few more Dark Marks into the air. One for each death. The last time we saw the Order in a fight against the Death Eaters, the DEs didn’t stop until Dumbledore arrived and immobilized each of them. Why stop now that the odds are in your favor? True there are Aurors watching the school know but with the two to one ratio you could take out a few more members and kidnap Potter before they show up. And besides, who’s going to notify the Aurors anyway. The Order’s hands are full and no one seemed to know what was going on until it was over. Or maybe the Death Eaters planned for it to all go that way. Take out Albus then leave. With Albus out of the picture they’ll have free reign. Still don’t understand not kidnapping Harry or sending up a second Dark Mark, though.
WOW i've missed a lot of stuff!
About DD's wand, I don't think the DE took it to LV, because I think it fellinto the grounds if i remember correct. It was very dark outside, so it would have been very difficult to see the wand lying in the gras, when they were all in a hurry to get out of there. So the wand must have been there after the DeathEaters left. They should have found it in the morning i guess, and I just think it is strange that the wand isn't mentioned after Malfoy did the expelliarmus on DD. ( Wich was, i think the last time the wand was mentioned, like you said jeannine) If the wand was taken by the Death eathers, wouldn't somebody say something like, "we haven't found his wand, maybe snape took it"' or something like that?
i mean why wouldn't mention it? the only reason i could think of that makes sense, is that DD still needs his wand, and that rowling does not want us to know that yet!
If the wand was still there, it would have been mentioned, like the song I mentioned before.
If the wand was taken by the Death Eathers, i think the missing wand would have been mentioned to create extra chaos.
If DD is alive and has got his wand with him, it would not have been mentioned because it would abviously give away to much!
That's what I think anyway...
About DD's wand, I don't think the DE took it to LV, because I think it fellinto the grounds if i remember correct. It was very dark outside, so it would have been very difficult to see the wand lying in the gras, when they were all in a hurry to get out of there. So the wand must have been there after the DeathEaters left. They should have found it in the morning i guess, and I just think it is strange that the wand isn't mentioned after Malfoy did the expelliarmus on DD. ( Wich was, i think the last time the wand was mentioned, like you said jeannine) If the wand was taken by the Death eathers, wouldn't somebody say something like, "we haven't found his wand, maybe snape took it"' or something like that?
i mean why wouldn't mention it? the only reason i could think of that makes sense, is that DD still needs his wand, and that rowling does not want us to know that yet!
If the wand was still there, it would have been mentioned, like the song I mentioned before.
If the wand was taken by the Death Eathers, i think the missing wand would have been mentioned to create extra chaos.
If DD is alive and has got his wand with him, it would not have been mentioned because it would abviously give away to much!
That's what I think anyway...
QUOTE
It was very dark outside, so it would have been very difficult to see the wand lying in the grass
I don’t think it being dark should be a problem. A solid cast of Accio DD wand should snap that item to the seeker.
Actually getting the wand isn’t such a great souvenir. OotP has been using wands to communicate. I insist that getting back is important. In any case I don’t think LV can be that dense. And maybe he isn’t seeing how Greyback was present. Draco certainly didn’t expect him there.
About the Dark Mark. I remember Albus telling Horace that had the Death Eaters actually been there the Dark Mark would be all over the place. Slughorn then says something along the lines of, knew I was missing something. Maybe this is a hint towards Snape's innocence. Or maybe I'm delusional, who knows?
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