Rowling Framed Snape and Dumbledore -
Snape's Not Evil, DD"s Not Dead

By Jeannine Lawler-Szostak

Because this is really long, I've actually reversed it to include the best information from HBP first in the hopes that it will generate replies. But feel free to peruse further to read A LOT more evidence from HBP (especially chapter 2) and all the former books....

HBP
If we look at the final events of the story, and here is where the wording becomes SO crucial, we really see that we need to read between the lines.

Dumbledore insists that Harry do exactly as he tells him. Harry agrees. In spite of that promise, when they are atop the astronomy tower, Dumbledore uses “Petrificus Totalus” on Harry while he is under the invisibility cloak. Why would he do that unless he already knew the outcome of the chain of events that was about to unfold? What if Dumbledore and Snape already had a plan worked out? They could have staged something to look good for the others, but wanted to be sure that Harry was kept safe and knew that, with his “saving people thing” (thanks Hermione) Harry wouldn’t be able to stop himself from interfering and thus ruining their plan. Don’ t believe me? Read on…

(P 583, Ch 27) The very first thing Dumbledore tells Harry when they return to Hogwarts on that fateful night

“Go and wake Severus,” said Dumbledore faintly but clearly. “Tell him what has happened and bring him to me. Do nothing else, speak to nobody else, and do not remove your cloak.”

Why would Dumbledore ask only for Severus? (And why wouldn’t he refer to him as Professor Snape?) This just screams pre-planning.

(P 585, Ch 27) Dumbledore to Malfoy

“You almost killed Katie Bell and Ronald Weasley. You have been trying, with increasing desperation, to kill me all year. Forgive me, Draco, but they have been feeble attempts…so feeble...that I wonder whether your heart has been really in it.”

Funny, in the conversation he had with Snape during Slughorn’s party (P 321-2, Ch 15), Malfoy INSISTED he had nothing to do with those things. Why the change of heart? We’ve heard mention of the fact that memories can be falsified or rather, implanted in someone’s mind. Could this be the case here?

Dumbledore brings up another good point – Draco hasn’t succeeded because his heart hasn’t really been in it. Could that be foreshadowing what Snape is about to do to Dumbledore?

Then Malfoy brags about how Snape has been “helping” him. But having witnessed the actual conversation that took place (again, P 321-2, Ch 15), there is a much different take – Snape doesn’t even know what’s been going on and Malfoy sure didn’t want to tell him.

(P 594-5, Ch 27) Malfoy and Dumbledore are (for lack of a better word) conversing when all the Death Eaters converge. They see Malfoy about to curse Dumbledore. Malfoy is losing his nerve. That is something Voldemort would not be able to forgive. Enter Snape, hero extraordinaire.

Snape quickly takes in the situation. One Good Guy. One Malfoy. Four Death Eaters. Snape and Dumbledore have a plan. He needs to ignore Dumbledore, lest one of the Death Eaters report him back to Voldemort.

(P 595, Ch 27) Snape has just shoved Malfoy out of the way and the Death Eaters have recoiled.

Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face.

Snape moved Malfoy out of the way to protect him. Knowing Malfoy was about to fail, he protected him by making it seem as though he, Snape, took over, leaving Malfoy no choice but to cease and desist.

The look of revulsion and hatred in Snape’s face is contradicted by the term “gazed” at Dumbledore. If he were glaring at Dumbledore, then I would assume the hatred and revulsion were aimed at Dumbledore. The term “gaze”, as defined by Webster’s Ninth New College Dictionary means, “to fix the eyes in a steady and intent look and often with eagerness or studious attention, as in wonder, admiration or abstractedness”. The revulsion and hatred is more likely directed towards the Death Eaters and to what has happened to Dumbledore. And – what’s that you say – Legilimency requires EYE CONTACT? Snape and Dumbledore couldn’t possibly be communicating with each other in the way that two skilled members of the Order of the Phoenix could?

As I’ve suggested before, Snape and Dumbledore had a plan. Dumbledore’s pleas of “Severus…please…” could be referring to the fact that Dumbledore wants Snape to follow through with their plan and Snape is hating the idea of doing that and how it’s going to make his credibility look.

The “Avada Kedavra” curse, as we all know, is an unforgivable curse. At the end of OoP, Harry tries to use “Crucio” on Bellatrix only to have her laugh at him and tell him how he has to “really mean it” when he uses it. What if Snape didn’t “really mean it”? The curse would be no good. Yes, it would throw off a light and maybe knock Dumbledore over the edge, but the curse wouldn’t kill him.

(P 597, Ch 28) Snape then continues to protect Malfoy

“Out of here, quickly,” said Snape.

He seized Malfoy by the scruff of the neck and forced him through the door ahead of the rest…

There was not even a moment of celebration. The Death Eaters have just killed off one of the most-feared good wizards and no one even claps? The door below is magnetically sealed. What are they waiting for? Snape made the Unbreakable Vow to protect Malfoy and he’s doing just that.

Harry feels that the only reason the petrificus totalus curse has been lifted from him is because Dumbledore died. Perhaps Dumbledore or Snape used an unspoken release before Dumbledore plunged over the side of the tower.

(P 598, Ch 28) Upon reaching the melee inside, Harry hears “the hated voice” shout “It’s over, time to go!” and he sees Snape and Malfoy disappearing around the corner…unscathed. I know, it looks bad. But again, change your perspective. Snape and Malfoy are protected on both sides, so they won’t get hurt. But Snape still wants to protect the other students. So he tells the Death Eaters to go, thus preventing further harm from coming to the students or to Hogwarts.

(P 602-3, Ch 28) As Harry is chasing Snape and Malfoy from the castle, trying to prevent them from Disapparating

Harry…took aim at Snape’s back, and yelled, “Stupefy!”

He missed…Snape shouted, “Run, Draco!”

Snape is still protecting Draco. Harry continues to pelt Snape with curses but Snape deflects the spells with a ”lazy flick of the arm.”

“Fight back!” Harry screamed at him. “Fight back you cowardly—“

Again and again Harry tries to curse Snape. NEVER ONCE DOES SNAPE CURSE BACK. In fact, Harry even notices Snape is not retaliating. Snape does give Harry some guarded advice, however, to give him the edge in the next fight…

“Blocked again and again and again until you learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed, Potter!”

Harry is then hit with excruciating pain.

“No!” roared Snape’s voice and the pain stopped…”Have you forgotten our orders? Potter belongs to the Dark Lord—we are to leave him! Go! Go!’

Harry curses Snape again and Snape repels him again. Then Harry is going to really curse Snape.

“No, Potter!” screamed Snape. There was a loud BANG and Harry was soaring backward…his wand flew out of his hand.

Harry had dived for his wand; Snape shot a hex at it and it flew feet away into the darkness and out of sight.

Here is the perfect opportunity for Snape to capture, kill, or do anything to Harry. He is alone, wandless, with no Dumbledore to protect him. Snape already appears to have killed Dumbledore, so he doesn’t need to “save face”. But instead, all he does is yell at Harry to not call him a coward. That is, after he stops the other DEs from using Crucio on Harry. The only hex he’s used so far is the one to get Harry’s wand away from him because Harry simply doesn’t understand what’s going on. He “lashes out” and hits Harry in the face, but this is almost reflexive, and it’s related to being called a coward. Until this point, Snape has done NOTHING to Harry, except get rid of all the Death Eaters. He could have done ANYthing, but he stops Harry from doing something he might later regret, and he gets rid of the Death Eaters (who can no longer enter Hogwarts, thus making it a safer place) and he’s still protecting Malfoy.

(P 608, Ch 28) Harry and Hagrid are returning to the castle, heading for Dumbledore

…(Harry) walked slowly forward until he reached the place where Dumbledore lay…there was still no preparation for seeing him here, spread-eagled, broken…”

Dumbledore’s eyes were closed; but for the strange angle of his arms and legs, he might have been sleeping.

No one ever checked for a pulse. They walked to where “Dumbledore lay”, not “Dumbledore’s body lay”.

(P 610, Ch 28) After viewing the body and finding the fake necklace

Only one thing mattered: This was not a Horcrux. Dumbledore had weakened himself by drinking that terrible potion for nothing.”

It says nothing about Dumbledore DYING for nothing.

(P 611, Ch 29) (Harry) did not want to leave Dumbledore’s side…

When you refer to being by / leaving someone’s side, it’s because they’re alive, if you refer to leaving “the body” it’s because they’re dead.

You can’t bring anyone back from the dead, but early on Snape said, “I can teach you to brew fame, bottle fortune, and even put a stopper in death”. Perhaps Snape came up with a potion to “put a stopper in death” for Dumbledore.

Why was Dumbledore never taken to the hospital wing? Everyone was there with Bill well into the night, but Dumbledore was never brought there. What happened to him / his body during the next few days?

(P 616, Ch 28) Everyone is questioning what Dumbledore knew about Snape that he could trust him. He’d endured “great personal risk”. (GoF, P 590, Ch 30) Harry assumes that it was because Snape had passed the information on that got Harry’s parents killed. But we’re taking a character’s word for it here. That doesn’t sound like “great personal risk”. Most Death Eaters wouldn’t care if someone got killed so long as they got the glory. I believe it’s what made Snape want to leave Voldemort (P 548-9, Ch 25) as does Dumbledore, but not the “great personal risk”. There’s more to the story here.

(P 619, Ch 28) Hermione tells Harry

Flitwick…was shouting about Death Eaters in the castle…he…burst…into Snape’s office and we heard him saying that Snape had to go back with him and help and then we heard a loud thump and Snape came hurtling out of his room and…said Professor Flitwick had collapsed and that we should go and take care of him…while he went to help fight the Death Eaters.”

Yes, I believe Snape stunned Flitwick. But not because he was angry with him or wanted to hurt him. Snape stunned Flitwick to keep him out of the melee.

(P 626, Ch 29) And a new portrait had joined the ranks of the dead headmasters and headmistresses of Hogwarts: Dumbledore was slumbering in a golden frame over the desk, his half moon spectacles perched upon his crooked nose, looking peaceful and untroubled.

Could this be just a regular portrait? Frog cards move. Other portraits move. All we know is that Dumbledore was sleeping in the portrait. I think this could all be part of a plan that Dumbledore hatched so that he would have more time to hunt the horcruxes without being monitored, just as Harry is not planning to return to school in the fall.

(P 629, Ch 29) The teachers discuss Dumbledore’s final resting place. Dumbledore wanted to be laid to rest on Hogwarts grounds, even though no other headmaster or headmistress ever was. How would anyone know that? Is there some special magic at Hogwarts?

(P 643, Ch 30) At the funeral

Hagrid was walking slowly up the aisle between the chairs. He was crying quite silently, his face gleaming with tears, and in his arms, wrapped in purple velvet spangled with golden stars, was what Harry knew to be Dumbledore’s body.

But he never saw it. We are going by Harry’s word that Dumbledore’s body was wrapped in the fabric.

(P 645, Ch 30) At the funeral

Bright, white flames had erupted around Dumbledore’s body and the table upon which it lay: Higher and higher they rose, obscuring the body. White smoke spiraled into the air and made strange shapes: Harry thought, for one heart-stopping moment, that he saw a phoenix fly joyfully into the blue, but the next second the fire had vanished.”

Do we know if Dumbledore is an animagus? Could he be a phoenix? He is 156 after all. It could be why the organization is called the “Order of the PHOENIX” with Dumbledore as its head. This phoenix appears to be different from Fawkes and is only ever referred to as “the Phoenix”. But what do we know about phoenixes? They RISE AGAIN FROM THE ASHES. Look for Dumbledore in Book 7 Baby!!

On a final note, during the “Connection” interview in October 1999, JK Rowling reacted “stunned” to a remark about a redemptive pattern to Snape because of something we will find out in Book 7….

Wonder what that could be ?

Just goes to show you, Rowling has framed both Snape and Dumbledore improperly - Snape as the bad guy and Dumbledore as a dead portrait...




(The following is the additional information that I pulled from all the books. It is not quite as involved as the first part, but it should prove my theory without a doubt... Enjoy....)

HBP (Continued)

Just as a forewarning, a large chunk of this section deals with Chapter 2. But that is because it’s so crucial to the story.

(P 24, Ch 2) Snape offers Narcissa & Bellatrix some elf-made wine. We’re repeatedly warned about and shown people slipping potions into the drinks of unsuspecting guests. Snape is a potions master. Could he have put some sort of truth potion or something that makes him more believable or something to dupe them into being a little more forth coming into the wine? Wait, isn’t that what alcohol itself does? Wonder what the elf-properties are?

(P 25, Ch 2) Bellatrix poses a lot of questions to Snape. These answers (P 26-27, Ch 2) could be interpreted in multiple ways:

I had sixteen years of information on Dumbledore to give him when he returned…

It says he had information TO give, but it never said he actually DID give it, nor did he say WHAT information he gave or if it was even useful to Voldemort or detrimental to the Order.

(P 28, Ch 2) Bellatrix says to Snape

“But you didn’t return when he came back, you didn’t fly back to him at once when you felt the Dark Mark burn—“

“Correct. I returned two hours later. I returned on Dumbledore’s orders…The Dark Mark had been growing stronger for months…I had plenty of time to think about what I wanted to do, to plan my next move, to escape like Karkaroff, didn’t I?

This takes us back to (P 713, Ch 36) from GoF (see previous entry). He had plenty of time to think – and to prepare – and to prepare with Dumbledore.

(P 28, Ch 2) Snape talking to Bellatrix

“I have been able to pass information on Dumbledore and the Order of the Phoenix ever since!”

Again, this is very general and vague. We don’t know what the information was, or even if it were true, let alone useful.

(P28-9, Ch 2) Snape to Bellatrix

“The Dark Lord’s initial displeasure at my lateness vanished entirely, I assure you, when I explained that I remained faithful, although Dumbledore thought I was his man. Yes, the Dark Lord thought that I had left him forever, but he was wrong.”

He does not specify to whom he is faithful. The “he” in the last sentence can be interpreted two ways. Consider this instead, “Yes, the Dark Lord that that I had left him (Dumbledore) forever, but he (Voldemort) was wrong.”

(P 29, Ch 2) Snape to Bellatrix

“My orders were to remain behind,” said Snape.

Who were these orders from – Voldemort or Dumbledore?

(P 30, Ch 2) Snape to Bellatrix

“The Dark Lord is satisfied with the information I have passed him on the Order. It led, as perhaps you have guessed, to the recent capture and murder of Emmeline Vance, and it certainly helped dispose of Sirius Black, though I give you full credit for finishing him off.

Notice Snape said SATISFIED. Not PLEASED.” It led to but didn’t cause. Perhaps he gave Voldemort some information that inadvertently led to their deaths.

(P 32, Ch 2) Snape to Narcissa

“It so happens that I know of the plan,” he said in a low voice.

Is he bluffing? Have you ever come across someone who seems to gain all sorts of information by claiming that they already know it? By claiming to know something vaguely, the other person feels as though talking about it is ok because they’re not TELLING it.

(P 33, Ch 2) Bellatrix is shocked to find out Snape knew. If she were so much Voldemort’s best supporter, why would she be so shocked to find out about Snape?

“You know about the plan?” said Bellatrix, her fleeting expression of satisfaction replaced by a look of outrage. “You know?”

Besides, it seems as though there are quite a few people with the title “Most Loyal Servant”.

(P 33, Ch 2) When Narcissa is crying about Draco,

Snape said nothing. He looked away from the sight of her tears as though they were indecent, but he could not pretend to not hear her.

Why would the tears be described as “indecent” instead of simply making him uncomfortable or without a descriptor at all – he turned from her tears?

(P 33, Ch 2) Snape to Narcissa

“If Draco succeeds,” said Snape, still looking away from her, “he will be honored above all others.”

This would indicate that he knows the plan, but again, he could still be bluffing. If Narcissa is THIS upset, it’s obviously something huge that has been entrusted to Malfoy. Throughout the rest of the chapter, they keep referring to “it”. Snape did not say he himself would honor Malfoy for doing so.

(P 34, Ch 2) Snape to Narcissa

“ …In the unlikely event that Draco succeeds, I shall be able to remain at Hogwarts a little longer, fulfilling my useful role as spy.”

FOR WHOM is he spying?

(P 35, Ch 2) After Narcissa collapses

Snape stooped, seized (Narcissa) by the arms, lifted her up, and steered her back onto the sofa. He then poured her more wine and forced the glass into her hand.”

It is interesting that he is plying her with more liquor.

(P 35, Ch 2) Snape to Narcissa

“It might be possible…for me to help Draco.”

But does Snape mean to help him to the good side or to fulfill the task (“it”)?

(P 35, Ch 2) Snape says he can TRY to see that Draco comes to no harm.

(P 35-6, Ch 2) When asked to make the unbreakable vow, Snape’s expression is blank, unreadable. Not pleased, reassuring, or confident etc. He makes the following vows:

v Snape will watch over Narcissa’s son, Draco, as he attempts to fulfill the Dark Lord’s wishes.
v Snape will protect Draco from harm.

It is possible for Snape to watch over Draco with his allegiance on either side. It is also possible to protect Draco from harm either way.

v If it seems Draco will fail…Snape will carry out the deed that the Dark Lord has ordered Draco to perform.

(P 36, Ch 2) as Snape is about to vouch for the third step
“(Snape’s hand twitched within hers, but he did not draw away)”…

WHY would the twitch have been in there unless he was uncomfortable? Perhaps he will forewarn Dumbledore in order to save Draco. Remember, we are not sure what Voldemort’s orders actually ARE. They COULD be to kill Dumbledore. If that’s the case, perhaps they had time to work out a plan and Dumbledore isn’t really dead (more on that later…) but what if the plan was actually for Malfoy to let the other Death Eaters into Hogwarts via the Vanishing Cabinet? And then the role of the Death Eaters was to take on Dumbledore? Getting Death Eaters into Hogwarts has never been done before. After all, Harry is Voldemort’s biggest threat at this point. What good would killing Dumbledore do? Why not just kill Harry?

(P 125-6, Ch 6) Malfoy ditches his mum and is overheard in Borgin and Burkes

“…you know how to fix it?”

“Possibly,’ said Borgin, in a tone that suggested he was unwilling to commit himself. “I’ll need to see it though. Why don’t you bring it into the shop?”

“I can’t,” said Malfoy. “It’s got to stay put. I just need you to tell me how to do it.”

Harry saw Borgin lick his slips nervously.

“Well, without seeing it, I must say it will be a very difficult job, perhaps impossible. I couldn’t guarantee anything.”

…”And don’t forget to keep that one safe, I'll need it.”

“Perhaps you’d like to take it now?”

“No, of course I wouldn’t, you stupid little man, how would I look carrying that down the street? Just don’t sell it…Not a word to anyone, Borgin, and that includes my mother, understand?”

Assuming that Narcissa knows what the plan is and that she would want to help Draco to keep him safe, why would Draco tell Borgin not to tell Narcissa? Perhaps she thinks he has one assignment, but he’s deceiving her and getting to the real assignment, letting the other Death Eaters in.

At this point, having not read further, we don’t know what he is referring to, but we can fathom a guess after completing the book that he is referring to the vanishing cabinet. One of them was broken (Montague ended up coming out in a toilet), so I assume it was the cabinet at Hogwarts – else Borgin could get to it to fix it. However, this does leave the question – why didn’t the cabinet transport Harry anywhere when he hid from the Malfoys inside it in CoS?

(P 151-2, Ch 7) When Harry is observing the Slytherins under his invisibility cloak on the Hogwarts Express, Malfoy is bragging that he is moving on to bigger and better things with Voldemort. Zabini questions him, claiming Malfoy is only sixteen and not even a qualified wizard. Malfoy retorts

“Maybe (Voldemort) doesn’t care if I’m qualified. Maybe the job he wants me to do isn’t something that you need to be qualified for,” said Malfoy quietly.

Just a question: Wouldn’t you need to be uber-qualified to take on Dumbledore? Why would he send a child to do it? Letting the other Death Eaters into Hogwarts would be something he could do.

(P 167, Ch 8) I found this to be interesting foreshadowing
“Well, there’s one good thing,” (Harry) said savagely, “Snape’ll be gone by the end of the year...”The job’s jinxed. No one’s lasted more than a year….”

(P 178-9, Ch 9) Snape begins to teach them non-verbal spells, which gives the user a distinct advantage over their opponents. Why would he teach beneficial things to Voldemort’s enemies if he were on Voldemort’s side?

(P 180, Ch 9) Harry is very angry that Snape talks so passionately with the Dark Arts.
“It was surely one thing to respect the Dark Arts as a dangerous enemy, another to speak of them, as Snape was doing, with a loving caress in his voice.”…

”Well,” said Hermione, “I thought he sounded a bit like you.”

(P 307, Ch 15) Malfoy claims to have overheard Harry & Hermione talking about how perfumes / unlabeled things are “safe”.
“Hermione stopped dead; Harry had heard it too. Somebody had moved close behind them among the dark bookshelves. They waited, and a moment later the vulture like countenance of Madam Pince appeared around the corner, her sunken cheeks, her skin like parchment, and her long hooked nose illuminated unflatteringly by the lamp she was carrying.”

Were we supposed to assume Madam Pince made those noises? Was Malfoy really there too? Or was he a poly-juiced Madam Pince? Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle have obviously mastered making Polyjuice Potion. We don’t know a whole lot about Madam Pince, but any time she has been described, it is a negative picture. Wonder why?

(P 321-2, Ch 15) When Filch has turned Malfoy in for trying to crash Slughorn’s party, Harry is surprised

“And why was Snape looking at Malfoy as though both angry and…was it possible? …a little afraid?”

(P 323-4, Ch 15) He follows them and overhears their conversation…

.”…cannot afford mistakes, Draco, because if you are expelled—“

“I didn’t have anything to do with it, all right?”

”I hope you are telling the truth, because it was both clumsy and foolish. Already you are suspected of having a hand in it.”

“Who suspects me?” said Malfoy angrily. “For the last time, I didn’t do it, okay? That Bell girl must’ve had an enemy no one knows about—don’t look at me like that! I know what you’re doing, I’m not stupid, but it won’t work—I can stop you!” (WHY WOULD HE LIE TO SNAPE?)

There was a pause and then Snape said quietly, “Ah…Aunt Bellatrix has been teaching you Occlumency, I see. What thoughts are you trying to conceal from your master, Draco?”

“I’m not trying to conceal anything from him I just don’t want you butting in!”

“So that is why you have been avoiding me this term? You have feared my interference? You realize that, had anybody else failed to come to my office when I had told them repeatedly to be there, Draco—“

“So put me in detention! Report me to Dumbledore!” jeered Malfoy (if they’re on the same side, and “alone” why would he speak to Snape that way?)

There was another pause. Then Snape said, “You know perfectly well that I do not wish to do either of those things.”

”You’d better stop telling me to come to your office then!”

“Listen to me,” said Snape, his voice so low now that Harry had to push his ear very hard against the keyhole to hear. “I am trying to help you. I swore to your mother I would protect you. I made the Unbreakable Vow, Draco—“

“Looks like you’ll have to break it, then, because I don’t kneed your protection! It’s my job, he gave it to me, and I’m doing it, I’ve got a plan and it’s going to work, it’s just taking a bit longer than I thought it would!”

“What is your plan?”

“It’s none of your business!”

”If you tell me what you are trying to do, I can assist you—“

“I’ve got all the assistance I need, thanks, I’m not alone”!

This is a conversation on so many levels. First and foremost, for Snape being so much in Voldemort’s inner circle, Malfoy sure doesn’t trust – or even seem to respect – Snape. It’s obvious that Malfoy knows about the Unbreakable Vow and doesn’t care. Snape does not know Malfoy’s plan. He’s trying to get information from Malfoy to pass to Dumbledore.

Remember, we need to consider here that we are hearing the majority of the story from Harry’s perspective, and he has a very negative opinion of Snape, thus his interpretation of events are going to be skewed.

(P 405, Ch 19) Hagrid is begrudgingly relaying to Harry the argument he overheard between Dumbledore and Snape.

“…I overheard ‘em talking – well, arguin’…I jus’ heard Snape sayin’ Dumbledore took too much fer granted a’ maybe he – Snape didn’ wan’ ter do it anymore—“

”Do what?”

”I dunno, Harry, it sounded like Snape was feelin’ a bit overworked, tha’s all – anyway, Dumbledore told him flat out he’d agreed ter do it an’ that was all there was to it. Pretty firm with him. An’ then he said summat abou’ Snape makin’ investigations in his House, in Slytherin…”

Snape doesn’t want to work for Voldemort anymore. He’s finding it too hard. But Dumbledore argued with him that he’d agreed to do it and to back out now would be devastating. Dumbledore was also inquiring about Snape’s progress investigating the cursed necklace and wine. Snape is obviously working with Dumbledore, doing what Dumbledore asked of him.

(P522-8, Ch 24) When Harry uses the Sectumsempra curse on Malfoy, the only punishment he receives is Saturday detention with Snape. At this point, he could have, and realistically SHOULD have reported Harry to Dumbledore. Any other infraction Harry has done, Snape has always called Dumbledore and / or McGonagall. This time, when Harry has done just about one of the worst things he has ever done, he gets detention? Not even lines with Umbridge’s magic quill?

Snape’s reaction shows that he feels somewhat responsible for what Harry has done, having been the one to not only write the curse into the potions book, but to have forgotten it in Slughorn’s classroom? That’s huge. The book contained a lot of useful potions information. It shows Snape truly is a genius with potions.

But Snape does not want to expel Harry? This would likely finally be grounds for him to do so. But he doesn’t. Hmmmm….

(P 531-533, Ch 24) Snape’s detention assignment is to go through and copy old punishment records. Snape purposely has him copy out the information about James and Sirius. Granted, this is personal here. Snape does not like Harry and the feeling is mutual. However, in spite of the fact that Harry gets a jolt in his stomach every time he sees his father’s or godfather’s names, Harry is also forming a connection with them. He is learning about them and things they did, that he could not find out by asking them. He is going to find out information about them that he would not otherwise have had. While I don’t believe that this was Snape’s intent (he likely wanted Harry to hurt), there’s bound to be something useful that comes from this, just as Ron remembers Riddle’s name on an award for special services to the school in CoS. No detention given has EVER been pleasant – cleaning bedpans, polishing silver, answering fan mail, and writing cards – it’s all meant to be unpleasant. They’re being punished after all.

(P 545, Ch 25) Harry discovers it was Snape who alerted Dumbledore to Trelawney’s prophecy. (P 548-9, Ch 25) Harry confronts Dumbledore with this newfound insight. Dumbledore does not deny it and tells Harry that

“Professor Snape made a terrible mistake. He was still in Lord Voldemort’s employ on the night he heard the first half of Professor Trelawney’s prophecy. Naturally, he hastened to tell his master what he had heard, for it concerned his master most deeply. But he did not know – he had no possible way of knowing – which boy Voldemort would hunt from the n onward, or what that the parents he would destroy in his murderous quest were people that Professor Snape knew, that they were your mother and father—…You have no idea of the remorse Professor Snape felt when he realized how Lord Voldemort had interpreted the prophecy, Harry. I believe it to be the greatest regret of his life and the reason that he returned –“

We have learned that we can trust Dumbledore’s views as though they came from the narrator herself. Dumbledore believes this is what caused Snape to leave Voldemort. Yes, it is horrible how things played out, but Snape did not predict what would happen, nor did he hear the remainder of the prophecy. Yes, from Harry’s perspective, what Snape did was horrible. But he was still loyal to Voldemort at the time and was doing his job.






(This is the original beginning of the essay. It includes evidence from all the other books as well....) (If you've made it this far, you may as well go all the way.... )

First, I want you to know, this is not a thrown-together, crackpot, hopeful fanfic. This is based on days of research from ALL of the books (US Edition). I know it is very, very long – believe me, I typed it. But please give it the benefit of the doubt. If you don’t want to read it all, skip to the part labeled “AND HERE’S THE MAJOR PROOF.” That’s the section pulled only from HBP. But there is a lot of foundation that has been laid in the first five books as well. Anyway, it’s four-thirty in the morning now, so I’m going to leave this for your input….

When I first read HBP, I was suspicious of Snape’s newly revealed double-agent status. I was convinced Rowling was setting us up to believe, once again, that Snape was a bad guy. It was so strange that she was just laying it all on the table like that. When I got to the final few chapters, however, my disbelief turned to shock and anger at Snape’s behavior. How could I have been so misled? I had always hated Snape because he was so mean to Harry, but I believed that somehow, deep down, he must have been a good guy. How could I have been so wrong?

I began searching Mugglenet to find evidence one way or the other. I found several essays on the subject, but none that pointed to a lot of the questions I had (and certainly not to this depth). Something kept nagging in the back of my mind, so I went through and started randomly looking at scenes with Snape in them, particularly the ones involving Harry that were not directly related to coursework / Potions class.

I was stunned to discover that Rowling herself is being more deceitful than Snape! Because I found so much canon for this, I have simply listed brief summaries of major plot lines in the first few books by book with brief interpretations following. For later books, I will actually use direct quotes to support my theory.

By the way, I’m not suggesting it as without fault, but I also inadvertently found evidence that DUMBLEDORE MAY NOT BE DEAD. That’s from Book 6 as well…

SS/PS

Harry misunderstands a lot of Snape’s activities, which turn out to have very logical, non-incriminating explanations. For example:

The trio believes Snape let the troll in on Halloween, and later find out it was Professor Quirrel aka. Lord Voldemort.

They also believe it is Snape who is putting the curse on Harry’s broom during the Quidditch game, when in fact, it was Professor Quirrel aka Lord Voldemort.

They believe that Snape is refereeing the following Quidditch match to sabotage Harry only to discover that he was actually trying to protect him.

Being that Voldemort was present for a lot of this school year, wouldn’t Snape have sensed Voldemort aka Quirrel, if he, Snape, were still working for him? Wouldn’t Voldemort have known Snape? Why would they have been on opposing sides when it came to retrieving the stone? They were shown as being in very close proximity to one another several times throughout the book.

For a suspected Death Eater, Snape sure has a keen interest in the outcome of the Quidditch matches and the winner of the House Cup. Somehow, if he were really a Death Eater, I would think he’d have more important things on his mind – say – killing Harry? But supposing he and Voldemort are not aware of each other’s presence. Voldemort may not have gotten strong enough yet. Snape admits he didn’t do anything because he didn’t want to “blow his cover” by killing him off. But then why would he stop someone ELSE from killing Harry?

CoS

During The Dueling Club (Ch 11) Snape has Malfoy set a snake on Harry. While this, admittedly, was quite terrifying for most of the people there, it also imparts the knowledge on Harry the knowledge the he is a Parselmouth, something which he was otherwise not consciously aware of.

(P 293 Ch 16) When Snape is told that a student had been taken into the Chamber itself, Snape grips the back of a chair very hard and says, “How can you be sure?” He seems quite surprised and a little uneasy as well. Doesn’t sound like someone who is “in the know” or up to speed on Voldemort’s plans.

Snape then goes on to “get rid of” Lockhart, telling Lockhart his “moment has come at last” and shouldn’t Lockhart go after the Monster? Professor McGonagall seems relieved after Lockhart leaves, saying “that’s got him out from under our feet.” So rather than bungle the staff’s attempts at saving Ginny by allowing Lockart to wreak havoc, Snape sends him off on a “mission”, getting him out of the way. If he were helping Voldemort, wouldn’t he have wanted to encourage as much confusion as possible?

Snape also successfully teaches them the “Expelliarmus” spell (P 190, Ch 11), which they use to take out Professor Lockhart (P 298, Ch 16), among many others later in the book.

PoA
(P 93, Ch 5), Snape is described as looking at Lupin with a look of loathing. The reason we are supposed to believe is because it is “common knowledge that Snape wanted the Defense Against the Dark Arts job…”. However, we later learn this look of loathing is MUCH more personal.

Harry was very suspicious of the Wolfsbane potion Snape made (P 157, Ch 8) and “had a crazy urge to knock the goblet out of his hands”. We all know that this was the werewolf potion Snape had properly brewed for him, but again, Harry’s preconceived ideas of Snape’s disposition, lead him to always suspect the worst of him.

Snape could easily have screwed up the werewolf potion, but he didn’t. In fact, (P 358, Ch 19) Snape admits to coming after Lupin, one of his worst enemies, to give it to him, as Lupin had forgotten to take it. Snape could have chosen to just “forget about it” and let Lupin – and everyone else - take the consequences. But he didn’t. He attempted to save Harry and the others from a werewolf attack.

GoF

(P 471-2, Ch 25) Not knowing anyone was watching (Harry was in the invisibility cloak) Snape and Moody exchange some pretty terse words over Moody searching Snape’s office. Snape says,

“You know I’m hiding nothing, Moody…as you’ve searched my office pretty thoroughly yourself.”

Moody’s face twisted into a smile “Auror’s privilege, Snape. Dumbledore told me to keep an eye—“

“Dumbledore happens to trust me,” said Snape through clenched teeth. “I refuse to believe that he gave you orders to search my office!”

“’Course Dumbledore trusts you,” growled Moody. “He’s a trusting man, isn’t he? Believes in second chances. But me—I say there are spots that don’t come off, Snape. Spots that never come off, d’you know what I mean?”

Snape suddenly did something very strange. He seized his left forearm convulsively with his right hand, as though something had hurt him.

Moody laughed. “Get back to bed, Snape.”

“You don’t have the authority to send me anywhere!” Snape hissed, letting go of his arm as though angry with himself.

So many things are happening here! As I said, Snape is not aware that Harry is there. He argues with Moody (who is on Voldemort’s side!). He not described as caressing his arm or even touching it. He seizes it convulsively. That describes someone who is afraid of what he has been. Moments after this conversation, Snape realizes Harry is there under the invisibility cloak. At this point, still, Snape gives up and walks away. It would have been very easy for Snape and Moody together to get rid of Harry at this point. He’s trapped. No one would have been the wiser. But they’re not on the same side, so they’re not working together.

(P 518-9, Ch 27) Karkaroff comes into Snape’s classroom and really unnerves Snape. Snape has been avoiding him. When Karkaroff starts to show Snape his arm, Snape gets very angry and brushes him off again. He makes no effort to even discuss anything with him, and initially, he was not aware of Harry being in the room, as Harry was under the desk cleaning up the armadillo bile. If he were still loyal to Voldemort, wouldn’t he have been excited, not angry?

(P 590, Ch 30) Harry is accidentally using the Pensieve while waiting to talk to Dumbledore about the dream he had in Divination. He entered the courtroom where Crouch had been trying Death Eaters.

Dumbledore had gotten to his feet. “I have given evidence already on this matter,” he said calmly. “Severus Snape was indeed a Death Eater. However, he rejoined our side before Lord Voldemort’s downfall and turned spy for us, at great personal risk. He is now no more a death eater than I am.”

(P 651, Ch 33) Voldemort is looking at the gap in his newly re-formed Death Eaters and says to them:

“And here we have six missing Death Eaters…three dead in my service. One, too cowardly to return…he will pay. One, who I believe has left me forever…he will be killed, of course…and one, who remains my most faithful servant, and who has already reentered my service.”

The Death Eaters stirred, and Harry saw their eyes dart sideways at one another through their masks.

“He is at Hogwarts, that faithful servant, and it was through his efforts that our young friend arrived here tonight…”

At this point, we are to believe that the Death Eater who is cowardly is Karkaroff and the most faithful servant would be Snape, but are left to wonder who the one who has left him forever would be. Much later, we learn that Snape is the one who has left forever and it is Moody that is the “that faithful servant” refers to. Notice it is a singular pronoun, HE and HIS, not THEY or THEIR. There is only one faithful servant at Hogwarts, Barty Crouch Jr.

(P 657, Ch 33) Voldemort is explaining how he has come back and how he got Harry there:

“Use my one faithful Death Eater, stationed at Hogwarts, to ensure that the boy’s name was entered into the Goblet of Fire. Use my Death Eater to ensure that the boy won the tournament—that he touched the Triwizard Cup first—the cup which my Death Eater had turned into a Portkey….”

Voldemort again refers to his ONE faithful Death Eater stationed at Hogwarts. We again, are meant to assume Snape (until much later). If Snape were so loyal, as we were meant to believe, why would he have to plant a Death Eater (Moody)? Why would he refer to only “one”?


(P 679, Ch 35), when Harry and Moody were in Moody’s office just after Harry was port-keyed back to Hogwarts. Dumbledore, Snape and McGonagall burst into the room.

“Moody was thrown backward onto the office floor. Harry, still staring at the place where Moody’s face had been, saw Albus Dumbledore, Professor Snape and Professor McGonagall looking back at him out of the Foe-Glass….

Snape followed (Dumbledore) looking into the Foe-Glass, where his own face was still visible…”

We all know that the Moody who was in the room was actually Barty Crouch Jr., loyal to Lord Voldemort. If Snape were really still loyal to Voldemort, why would the Foe-Glass list Snape as Crouch’s enemy?

(P 680, Ch 35) Snape follows Dumbledore’s orders, no questions asked, and brings out the Veritaserum that induces Barty Crouch’s confession. If he (Snape) were indeed working for the other side, wouldn’t he have been afraid of what Barty might say about him or Voldemort’s plans?

(P 683, Ch 35) Dumbledore wants to give Moody the Veritaserum:

Dumbledore got up, bent over the man (Barty) on the floor, and pulled him into a sitting position against the wall beneath the Foe-Glass, in which the reflections of Dumbledore, Snape and McGonagall were still glaring down upon them all.

That’s the third time Snape has been mentioned as showing up in the Foe Glass.

(P 703, Ch 36) Fudge says,

“From what Minerva and Severus have told me, he seems to have thought he was doing it all on You-Know-Who’s instructions!”

Why would Snape help Fudge / hurt a follower?

(P 713, Ch 36) Dumbledore to Snape:

“Severus,” said Dumbledore, turning to Snape, “you know what I must ask you to do. If you are ready…if you are prepared…”

“I am,” said Snape.

He looked slightly paler than usual, and his cold, black eyes glittered strangely.

“Then good luck,” said Dumbledore, and he watched, with a trace of apprehension on his face, as Snape swept wordlessly after Sirius.

Snape seems very ill at ease here. There is no mention of Snape’s face flushing with excitement or his eyes being full of anticipation. But it is also interesting that Dumbledore says, “you know what I must ask you to do” and Snape agrees. It sounds as though this was already planned. Snape’s Dark Mark has been growing stronger all year. It is highly likely that he would have discussed this with Dumbledore and they would have formulated a plan.

(P 720, Ch 37) at the end of year feast…

”Further along, sitting next to Professor McGonagall, was Snape. His eyes lingered on Harry for a moment as Harry looked at him. His expression was difficult to read. He looked as sour and unpleasant as ever. Harry continued to watch him, long after Snape had looked away.

What was it that Snape had done on Dumbledore’s orders, the night that Voldemort had returned? And why…why…was Dumbledore so convinced that Snape was truly on their side? He had been their spy, Dumbledore had said so in the Pensieve. Snape had turned spy against Voldemort, “at great personal risk.” Was that the job he had taken up again? Had he made contact with the Death Eaters, perhaps? Pretended that he had never really gone over to Dumbledore, that he had been, like Voldemort himself, biding his time?

Why would JK give so much future storyline plot away? We are supposed to assume it is just ramblings here and forget about it. But keep in mind; every time that Harry has judged Snape or Snape’s actions, he has been wrong.

OoP

(P 531, Ch 24) Snape is introducing the idea of Occlumency to Harry.

“The Dark Lord, for instance, almost always knows when somebody is lying to him. Only those skilled at Occlumency are able to shout down those feelings and memories that contradict the lie, and so utter falsehoods in his presence without detection.”

I don’t know about you, but if Dumbledore trusts Snape to teach Occlumency to Harry, Voldemort must be pretty skilled at it, and thus would be able to deceive Voldemort….

(P 532, Ch 24) Still discussing what’s going on with Occlumency

“How come I saw through the snake’s eyes if it’s Voldemort’s thoughts I’m sharing?”

“Do not say the Dark Lord’s name!” Spat Snape….

“Professor Dumbledore says his name,” said Harry quietly.

“Dumbledore is an extremely powerful wizard,” Snape muttered. “While he may feel secure enough to use the name…the rest of us…” He rubbed his left forearm, apparently unconsciously, on the spot where Harry knew the Dark Mark was burned into his skin.

Snape again seems very uncomfortable talking about Voldemort, almost fearful. This idea is repeated several times throughout the next several pages. Snape also shows that he has a great deal of respect for Dumbledore.

Snape is also trying very hard to teach Harry Occlumency to prevent the Dark Lord from being able to penetrate Harry’s mind. While Harry may not really like Snape, Snape is really working to ensure Harry’s safety at this point. Snape already knows that Voldemort has returned. If Voldemort wanted to use Harry so badly, why wouldn’t Snape go more slowly with the Occlumency lessons? He teaches Harry properly. It is because Harry does not follow Snape’s directions, that Harry is made vulnerable to Voldemort.

(P 554, Ch 25) Later, when the trio is discussing Occlumency, Ron suggests Snape is trying to open Harry’s mind to make it easier for Voldemort.

“Shut up, Ron,” said Hermione angrily. “How many times have you suspected Snape, and when have you ever been right?…”

Hmmmm…. Even Hermione agrees Snape is being unfairly portrayed as the bad guy.

(P 591, Ch 26) During Occlumency, Snape is very upset that Harry is still getting visions from Voldemort, and says coldly to Harry,

“It is not up to you to find out what the Dark Lord is saying to his Death Eaters.”

“No – that’s your job, isn’t it?” Harry shot at him

He had not meant to say it; it had burst out of him in temper. For a long moment they stared at each other, Harry convinced he had gone too far. But there was a curious, almost satisfied expression on Snape’s face when he answered.

“Yes, Potter,” he said, his eyes glinting. “That is my job. Now, if you are ready, we will start again…”

Rowling’s choice of words here is interesting. Snape is “finding out” what the Dark Lord is saying to his Death Eaters. He is not “listening to” or “following”. He is “finding out”. The words “finding out” insinuate discovering something accidentally or by ways of stealth – spying.

(P 592, Ch 26) When Harry breaks into Snape’s memories, he does not see memories of the Death Eaters or of Voldemort, but instead of Snape, miserable as a child. We have been given insight to a more vulnerable Snape.

(P 593, Ch 26) Snape is “furious” when Harry has another vision of being in the Department of Mysteries. Not excited or anxious. He is FURIOUS.

(P 593, Ch 26) When Harry and Snape are still working on Occlumency,

“Can you tell me something, sir?” said Harry, firing up again. “Why do you call Voldemort the Dark Lord, I’ve only ever heard Death Eaters call him that –“

Snape opened his mouth in a snarl—and a woman screamed from somewhere outside the room.

Snape was interrupted here and when something gets interrupted and is not returned to, it is usually a big clue. I do wonder what he would have said, but my guess is the answer is simply habit or fear.

(P 630-631, Ch 28) Umbridge begins to question Harry about Dumbledore and Sirius, believing him to be under the power of the Veritaserum that Snape gave her (744-45, Ch 32). If Snape were really out to get Dumbledore or Harry, he could easily have given her the REAL stuff, but (P 833, Ch 37) Dumbledore tells Harry that Snape gave Umbridge fake Veritaserum.

Chapter 28 is entitled “Snape’s Worst Memory”. That means it is the NARRATOR (not Harry or Snape etc.) who is qualifying this as Snape’s “worst” memory. The memory that Harry discovers is one of James and the gang tormenting him back when they were all students. It is interesting that with all of the things he could have put into the Pensieve, that this was one of them. After Harry was able to penetrate his mind, you would think that he would put traitorous thoughts in the Pensieve. This memory serves to make us see the more sensitive side of Snape.

(P 830, Ch37) Dumbledore is filling in the details of what happened from the other side, regarding Harry’s last resort cryptic plea for help for Sirius in Umbridge’s office.

“You see when you gave Professor Snape that cryptic warning…he…attempted to contact Sirius at once…When…you did not return from your trip into the forest with Dolores Umbridge, Professor Snape grew worried that you still believed Sirius to be a captive of Lord Voldemort’s. He alerted certain Order members at once.”

After getting Moody, Tonks, Shacklebolt and Lupin to help Harry, Snape goes to the forest to search for Harry. If Snape were really on Voldemort’s side, and he were really out to get Harry, here again is a perfect opportunity for him to have just ignored things and let someone else “take care of” Harry. But instead, he alerts members of the Order so that Harry can be rescued. Again.

(P 832-834, Ch 37) Dumbledore gives rational explanations for all the things of which Harry had thought Snape guilty.

(P 851, Ch 38) As Harry and Malfoy are having a confrontation, Snape emerges.

…at the sight of (Snape) Harry felt a great rush of hatred beyond anything he felt toward Malfoy…Whatever Dumbledore said, he would never forgive Snape…never…”

This solidifies the idea that Harry has very preconceived ideas about Snape’s character and would be quite biased against him in any future endeavors.


If you've made it this far, CONGRATULATIONS!!! Now please post a reply - even if you just say, "Hey, I read it all the way through...." Thanks!!


MOD NOTE: I deleted your unintentional double post. Just to let you know.

i think its great that you wrote so much, but youve read to far into this all the hidden meanings in words and sentences, there not really meant i believe, that dumbledore is really dead, it makes alot more sense than having his death faked and then going into hiding, also in the first book when snape says put a stopper in death or on death he is refferring to putting a cork or a lid on a bottle of potion that could kill not making a potion that prevents death weve already learned in many other books that becoming imortal or bringing back people from the dead is dark magic, except perhaps philiosphers stone immortality. as much as i dont want to except it and believe it, albus is dead. i think the death willl be extremly important in book 7 though and i dont think he will have died in vain, and he must really be dead because his portrait in his office, your theory is good but too based on little tidbits of words that could go either way, i think a better theory is that snape was on orders from albus to kill albus. but yes albus is dead. [FONT=Courier][SIZE=1][COLOR=blue]

I didn't actually read through your entire post (sorry -- I know it took a long time to write.) I would like to add a few comments:

1) I hope JKR does explain the significance of the spell freezing Harry -- my guess is that is was to give DD an opportunity to talk Draco out of killing him without Harry interfering. In addition, this gave JKR an opportunity to explain some of the mysteries of the book.

2) I have often wondered why DD on several occassions asks for 'Severus.' I don't believe the reason is quite as convoluted as you make out. I hope JKR has an opportunity to explain this further in the seventh book, but I feel that we will be disappointed.

Several items that I do not agree with --

1) DD is dead. I think JKR has made it clear in the past that she does not intend to manipulate the reader that way. For Harry to truly vanquish Voldemort -- DD had to die. I think that we can assume that DD's portrait & the fact that McGonagal can enter the office are proof of his death.

2) Snape is evil, and DD did not expect him to kill him. Any other explanation seems to be wishful thinking. -- JKR mocks the 'conspiracy theorists' who would believe otherwise in her online interview after the book ended. I hope & believe that Snape will still prove to be more complicated than 'good' or 'evil' -- but this remains to be seen.

3) Snape was helping Malfoy -- despite not knowing Malfoy's plans, he makes it clear that he is keeping Malfoy out of detention so that he can work his plans. Snape was putting Crabbe & Goyle in detention (so that Malfoy needed him more??), but not Malfoy. This is the help that Malfoy is referring to. Snape was helping Malfoy, but Draco did not want to let Snape in on his plans so as not to let Snape grab his glory -- this is not the same as not trusting him.

Wow. Kudos to all your research, that shows some serious dedication (yes i did read it all.) hmm..where to begin? i must agree with the others in saying that i think you may be reading just a liitle too much into some of the exact wording stuff (if I were Rowling I'd be really nervous to think that much attention to detail were expected of me), but largely, you make good points. I certainly am inclined to believe that Snape will somehow be redeemed as a "good guy". Rowling has invested way too much into his character to betray him like this for no apparent reason, especially with all the evidence to the contrary you've so painstakingly pointed out. Frankly, if he really is evil, I'll be forced to believe that Rowling just isnt as good a writer as I thought she was, something I really don't want to do.
I had expected Dumbledore to go in either this book or the next, but I must agree that the way he went is rather fishy. If he and Snape were indeed planning this all along, then that means Dumbledore would have sacrificed himself for the lives of Draco and Snape. Under normal circumstances, its exactly the sort of thing I would expect DD to do, but thes aren't normal circumstances. We're talking about thousands of lives, and the fate of the entire wizarding world here. It seems to me that DD must be of more worth to Harry in the location of the Horcruxes and destruction of Lord Vol. than a dozen Snapes and Malfoys. DD a pretty smart guy, he would know this. So did he fake his own death to save their lives? I would like to think so, but I'm afraid it just doesn't add up. If DD was willing to feign death via the hands of Snape, don't you think he would have pulled someone from the Order aside and explained the plan to them? Otherwise he's just putting Snape in danger of death by the other side--not really helping the situation. And you heard McGonagall's reaction to DD's death at the hands of Snape, she had never really been convinced of Snape's loyalty either, and neither, it seems had anyone else in the Order. Their trust was in DD, and in his judgement, but it certainly went against theirs. I suppose its possible that DD didn't tell them because he wanted to make sure that there was no way Vol could suspect he was still alive, and didn't want to risk his powers of Legilimency with any captured members of the Order, but then he wouldn't be able to tell Harry in the next book either, and then how is he any help at all?

Wow. That is some serious deep thinking. I have another to put to you and I will leave it to you to decide if it warrents more attention.
pg 591, chapter 27 (us version)
"He can not kill you if you are already dead.Come over to the right side, Draco, and we can hide you more completly than you can possibly imagine. What is more-I can send members of the Order to your mother tonight and hide her likewise. Nobody would be surprised that you had died in your attempt to kill me-forgive me, but Lord Voldemort probably expects it."

Hmmm.A great idea, to pretend one is dead in order to hide and serve a different side. I will let those of you who like to disect the written word work with this one.

Wow, I love it!

It seems you already did all the work I was going to do after my exams...

I go along with you in most points, however, I still can't believe Dumbledore is alive. I know that there are clues. Like "Dumbledore was blasted in the air". Not like the other Avada Kedavras, huh? And that "put a stopper into death" - good thinking. But still... *sigh*
What use would it be if Dumbledore was still alive?

Thanks for pointing out all the things that make Sev look good. I did collect quite a few of them on my own without reading the books _again_. .oO(God knows I've read each of them at least six times). But now I am even more convinced that Snape really is good. *sigh* No more nightmares, thanks.

I really want to write some more, just to honour all the work you had while you were typing all this. But I've got to get back to my books. *snivel*
If I was a witch I would actually _enjoy_ learning... *sigh*
However, I promise to ponder about all you wrote and write some more tomorrow when there will be NO MORE UNIVERSITY for six weeks.

And realbullet: Of course JK mocks the conspiracy theorists! What else would she do? "Good thinking guys, you've got it all worked out, now I don't need to write book 7."

Just need to add one more statement.
IF Snape turns out to really really be evil in book seven, I will burn the books at midnight and full-moon. I will dance naked around the fire and sing "I'm off to kill the wizard" or "Pop goes the weasel". I will totally neglect that there ever was such thing as a seventh book and stick to my theory until my own bitter end.

*sigh*
Okay, I just needed to point that out.

Flutterflie

Thank you for that long explanation, which I've read and I agree with most of it. First of all, Dumbledore's a great wizard, not easy to be fooled and I trust him, not people like Harry and the others who look at Severus's behaviour and how mean he is. He, his talks to Dumbledore... their relationship was more like a father and a son, and in OoP Dumbledore asked Snape to return to Voldemort... and he did it, although he might have been killed.

I think that Rowling by inventing Snape's character wants to tell us "Don't judge people by appearances".

Hi there. I wish the comments were numbered so it would be easier to reply! But I'll do my best...

horcrux#7 - I would normally agree with you about reading too much into things, until I became one of the coined "HP Sleuths". I read a book called "The Ultimate Unofficial Guide to the Mysteries of Harry Potter" by Galadriel Waters (Wizarding World Press). It examines Books 1-4 IN DEPTH. (There is an analysis of Book 5, but it wasn't quite the same... )

I admit I bought the book to pass the time after OoP came out and I, too, felt it was way over the top. I wanted to return it but the store I'd bought it at was an hour away. I decided that since I'd paid for the book I should finish it. By the middle of it I was astounded by how much I'd missed. It's what got me started. In the book and other things I've read (some by Rowling herself) it says that she is INTENTIONALLY laying all these clues for us to find. She works really hard at the wording of things. She enjoys having us look for clues and trying to trip us up. For instance, the names of the wards at St. Mungo's, when researched, have hidden, suggestive meanings (one suggests Mr. & Mrs. Longbottom may be PURPOSELY unimproving). There's a LOT more to these books than is on the surface. I'll admit, I had to go back and read them AGAIN and I felt as though I was reading them for the first time (it was like th 7th!). That's why I got so excited as I was re-reading HBP.

Regarding the question of putting the stopper in death - I have to (politely) disagree with your interpretation - why would Snape have to teach them how to cork a bottle?

I agree that it has been clearly stated that you cannot bring someone BACK from the dead. But it has been shown several times that death can be prevented - love (we're not clear on how Harry survived, but it seems to be the underlying cause), unicorn blood, horcruxes, etc. - and while they may not all be the most pleasant, they exist none the less. I don't think Dumbledore is immortal - though the question has been posed to me if I think Dumbledore has another sorcer's stone as he's 150 (I don't think he does).

As far as the portrait - do we know that the portrait is an official "dead headmaster" portrait or could it just be another of the portraits from around the castle? Notice the portrait was sleeping, so there was no real way to determine much from it.

I've got to quit here else I'll make my response as long as my essay!!


realbullet I know it's long! I got a ---little---carried away.

I think you're also right about freezing Harry. But I think it was to protect both boys as well.


I agree that Harry needs to be able to prove that he can succeed without Dumbledore's aid, but I still think it's part of the plot to keep Hogwarts going without Dumbledore so that he can devote more time to finding the Horcruxes. Harry is doing the same. No one knows of the horcruxes - Harry can't even talk to McGonagall about them! (That's a puzzle in itself.) So this is Dumbledore's trup card. It is way way too important for him now that Voldemort & the DE are wreaking havoc everywhere. Time is of the essence. Which is more important - overseeing classes etc. or preventing the Dark Lord's reign of terror?

I haven't seen any of Rowlings mocking, however she LOVES to tease and play with us. She's playing a game of cat and mouse. She is REALLY REALLY good at it.

I think Snape was protecting Malfoy. But Malfoy had been ordered to detention. (P 323, Ch 15) Snape and Malfoy are fighting - Snape says, "So that is why you have been avoiding me this term? You have feared my interference? You realize that, had anybody else failed to come to my office when I had told them repeatedly to be there, Draco--" He has been trying to get Draco to come and see him and Draco has been defying him. I can see your take on things. I think Malfoy has gotten to the point that he is not listening to anyone - he is so afraid of Voldemort. I don't think Malfoy is doing this for the glory. I think this task was assigned to him by Voldemort and that he is terrified of it - he's crying in the bathrooms, he looks terrible, he's afraid. That doesn't sound like someone after glory. He's reluctantly doing it - not that he isn't on the dark side, but I think he's protecting his father by doing it (Snape and Narcissa agree with me in Ch 2).

Again, I need to move on, or I'll be at the length of the essay

FawkesLady Thank you Sorry - I'll have to defer you to my first reply as far as details....

I think Dumbledore will probably go by the end of the series, because Harry will likely ultimately replace him as the "great wizard" (though I think he'll go on to be a DADA teacher, not an auror - which is a whole other topic....) There's not room for two of them. And like I said, I didn't set out with the idea that DD was dead - though I was in shocked disbelief - but that just came out accidentally. The whole split second of seeing the phoenix over the tomb was just way too subtle - Rowling LOVES subtlety. (Did'ya ever notice Sirius Black was mentioned in passing in SS/PS? What was he doing with Hagrid that Hagrid got to borrow the motorcycle to bring Harry to the Dursleys? Again, tangent... Sorry!)

I think you answered your own question about DD not telling anyone - except Snape.... If they all knew, their grief wouldn't be real. Voldemort would be suspicious and he would also be able to use Legillimency agains them. That would defeat the purpose. But as far as we know, no one else knows about the Horcruxes - except Harry, Ron, Hermione, DD, Slugworth, Voldemort, & RAB (???). Even McGonagall doesn't know. If DD were to take a hiatus, everyone would be hunting him down, wanting answers, wanting to know where he was. A figure that prominent taking a vacation at times like these would be hugely problematic. So instead, he "sneaks off" and works on the world's greatest problem in secret. The trio is apparently not planning to return to Hogwarts next year either, and JK has also said that we will notice book 7 taking a markedly diferent turn.

I think that Harry also needs to learn that he is super-ultra-capable all by himself - he didn't have to rely on DD.

Snapelover I'd neglected that one, but it is wonderful! Thank you!! I do wonder what will become of Draco & parents in book 7. It will be hard to pretend he is dead if the other DE's saw him running afterwards, but the idea of pretending to be dead and being hidden more completely than one could possibly imagine is so blantant - how on earth did I miss that??? It shows it is possible, and even thought-of. I'll have to work it into my master essay...

Flutterflie Thank you! (And you're welcome ) I spent way too many years in school so I know what you're talking about! Now you can just relax and enjoy the time off...

Something else about the other Avada Kedavras - the first five, the one with the spider / Moody and with the Potters, Frank Bryce, and Cedric Diggory all involved rushing sounds. There was no mention of sound with DD. I'm not sure if that means anything, but it seems odd that there would be more to a spider's death than Dumbledore's...

If you have more evidence, please feel free to submit it. I'd love to read it.

By all means, the conversation will still be here. Finish studying! (From someone who works in the schools and spent way too much time there beforehand!) Otherwise you'll have nothing to show for all your hard work!

And I must say I laughed out loud when I read your final statement. It's nice to know someone's in my corner.

bobotuber_pus You're welcome I agree. I think it's hard to be in a position where no matter what you do, everyone thinks you're evil. I have a friend who everyone thinks the worst of. His parents are horrible to him, his teachers hated him, everyone there thought he was really a bad-hearted person. When I ment him, I decided to give him the benefit of the doubt in spite of what everyone said about him. He is one of the most loyal, caring people I have ever met. He just needed someone to believe in him. I'm not saying Snape is going to be all sunshine and daisies (though it would be funny) but deep down, once you get past his own feelings of insecurity, which portray themselves as animosity to Harry, Snape is a good guy

Finally (because my fingers are tired and there's nothing else to reply to!) I just got an email about a site that may be of interest (though I haven't had time to look at it since I've been here, typing away...)

dumbledoreisnotdead dot com

Thanks for all your input!!

I don't think Dumbledore is dead either, but I do have some different opinions on your opinions. First of all, I think only Dumbledore and Snape know about what the two of them were doing. Nobody else knows Dumbledore is really alive. Secondly, I think Dumbledore's portrait is on the wall not because he's dead, but because he is no longer headmaster. The portraits are for past headmasters not dead headmasters. And I do think that Dumbledore is a pheonix. I don't know if he is fawkes or is another bird, but I would believe that

Also I think the way that Snape said for Harry not to call him a coward has a lot of significance. Because if he really did kill him it was a cowardly move.

UnregisteredAnimagus I agree that only Dumbledore and Snape know what they were doing and that no one else knows.

I think that is a WONDERFUL point about it being former headmasters. It does say "dead" at the end of HBP, but how does one leave the position? Is it thorugh death or can you retire?

It was just interesting that Fawkes had left the grounds and then there was a split-second of a phoenis. We're supposed to not really notice it....


Your second post makes another good point. Thanks!

I always repeat that this phoenix must mean something important, because the order has a name "the Order of Phoenix", and the phoenix is a bird which can live again from its ashes. DD's funeral was significant, his body burnt itself and then Harry saw something like phoenix. It must mean something important!

We don't know if, f. ex. DD can change is an animagus, we don't know what Fawkes exactly can, we don't know so many things... but we know that Voldemort didn't appreciate Phoenixes, as he laughed at this bird in HP1.

Um, wow, I didn't take the time to read all of those posts, but after reading those interviews with JKR, I'd have to think that what happened was meant to happen...and sadly enough, Snape might not be innocent. It was just the way she said that people will want to 'cling to their hope' or something like that that makes me feel like maybe everyone is over analyzing things, and it really is how it seemed.

Cling to their hope... Yes, maybe I am, and if it occurs that Snape is pure evil, I'll hate her books, but what she should say? "hey, people, you're right, don't buy the book nr 7?"

Simply I believe in the fact that good people win (and that DD was right with Snape) and that they (DD and Snape) had things between them that they didn't say to others. That they had their plans because they are both excellent educated and so on.

And I also don't think that the next, last book will be like "Harry goes searching for Horcruxes" because forgive me but I think he's too weak at the moment to manage to do it, even with Hermione's and Ron's help. If this book was like "Harry searches for Horcruxes", it wouldn't be her style, because she hid something in each of the books. She did it in every single book. Why should this book be different?

Hi there - I was just going through that book I mentioned and it brought up something else I'd missed...

Dumbledore says (Ch 7, SS) that "music is a magic beyond all we do here" (at the welcome feast after they've all sung the school song (in their own style).

(P614-5, Ch 29, HBP) "Somewhere out in the darkness, a phoenix was singing in a way Harry had never heard before: a stricken lament of terrible beauty.And Harry felt, as he had felt about phoenix song efore, that the music was inside him, not without."

"Molly and Arthur are on their way," (McGonagall) said, an the spell of the music was broken.

(P 621, Ch 29, HBP) Fawkes's lament was still echoing over the dark grounds outside. As the music reverberated upon the air..

(P 625, Ch 29, HBP) The corridors outside were deserted and the only sound was the distant phoenix song.

(P 632, Ch 29, HBP) Fawkes had stopped singing. And (Harry) knew, without knowing how he knew it, that the phonix had gone, had left Hogwarts for good...

In CoS, when Fawkes comes to Harry's aid, Fawkes's song empowers him. It gives him the strength to continue. It's doing the same here in HBP, giving them all strength and comfort in their grief, though it's obviously singing for much longer. His song is called a lament, which means a "crying out in grief" (Webster's). Those would be MAJOR MAJOR healing tears....

SexyHotCookie - I haven't read all of the interviews with JKR, but could the "cling to their hope" be feelings of vindication that Snape was indeed evil?

Bobotuber_pus - I know JK said the style of book 7 is going to be different and that we get hints as to how at the end of book 6, that's where I got it form. Harry has told Ron & Hermione he doesn't intend to return to Hogwarts.

(P 650-1, Ch 30, HBP) "I'm not coming back (to Hogwarts) even if it does reopen," said Harry. ..."Then I've got to track down the rest of the Horcruxes, haven't I?...That's what he wanted me to do, that's why he told me all about them. ..There are still four of them out there. I've got to find them and destroy them, and then I've got to go after the seventh bit of Voldemort's soul, the bit that's still in his body, and I'm the one who's going to kill him." Hermione and Ron insist they'll be there - there had been a time to turn back and they hadn't and they won't.



As an aside, I looked at the front cover of that book and it has several Rowling quotes on it:

"My ambition is to write books that the reader won't necessarily get completely on the first reading..." Sunday Morning Herald interview

"If you read (Harry Potter) carefully, you'll get hints about what's coming..." Scholastic.com chat

Excellent research


I was going to sit down after my cell and molecular final exam to pull out all this points. But its seems that master has done if for me. But I will still go for book 6 to get all the info I can.

Guess what?! I read it all... I did nite work and came back and read this for hour.. pretty interesting

THere is one point we still are forgetting even if Dumbldore is gone it doesnt mean there is no one to protect Harry. Its Snape who will protect Harry as he has been doing it.

We should not forget that he has skills like Lord Voldemort. Occulemency and Leglimency. Dark Arts.

Some of you might remember that Sirius had told to Harry that when he entered in the school he knew most of the DADA spells that even 5th year didnt do. So we can say how powerul Snape is.

Anyways I hope everyone reads this. Moderator I have request that you put this on top list of the site so that everyone before asking question realizes the truth.

FInally Theory has been proved

MOD EDIT: Howdy, and welcome to the forums! Please review the rules, netspeak ('wut' for what, anywayz for anyways, etc.)is not allowed on VTM. It makes posts harder to read. Please be more careful in the future. Thanks, Mason.

Hi there - I'd be terrified to think of Harry's best & last line of defense as being Snape, but then again, I guess Snape is a pretty powerful guy. I can't stand thw way he treats Harry; makes him very untrustworthy; but he is very powerful. I think McGonagall and Hagrid, the Weasleys - the whole Order would be willing to protect him.

I think Dumbledore will still be there - pardon the pun - waiting in the wings (phoenix wings) - to help Harry out, even if Harry doesn't know it.

I guess it's time to pass the torch though. Harry is coming of age and is going to have to stand on his own two feet.... He does have at least one partial good day left. What DID Slughorn do with the rest of the felix potion anyway.... Couldn't they make some more and use it during the ensuing battles?? Just a thought...

Yes, this book7 can be different because it probably won't happen at school, but what I meant (I guess I haven't expressed my thoughts properly) that it would be too easy and not Rowling's style if ther eweren't any news and changes in our opinions from earlier books. There'a always like that, things aren't what they seem and so on.

Don't you think that Harry often judges well his mates and enemies in his age, but he sometimes judges bad adults? it comes out because DD and others don't say everything to him. Sometimes to see what things really are you have to believe that things are the opposite- as somebody -not me- said.

Okay, I just re-read you post and I hope I won't forget anything I thought or wondered about it. However, I've got a pretty long list here, so this post is gonna get huge.

1. Why did Dumbledore use Petrificus Totalus on Harry?

He wanted him to see everything. So if your theory that DD never died is right, DD wanted Harry to believe he was dead. If Harry believed Dumbledore was dead everybody else would, because nobody has such a strong bond with him.
If Dumbledore is dead, he would have wanted Harry to see how he died. He would have wanted Harry to think about it and finally come to the conclusion, that there was not a huge difference between Snape obeying Dumbledores orders (if that is so) and Harry obeying Dumbledores orders, force-feeding him the potion he knows not.

2. Why did Dumbledore ask Harry to get Severus ?

Is this only to indicate his never-failing trust in Snape, knowing that Harry never trusted Snape? Is it to be more personal, to make clear how close he is to Sev?

3. What did you mean by "Dracos memory is falsified"? And who would have done it?

4. You were wondering if Snape really "ment it" when he Avada Kedavraed Dumbledore. Yes, I would think so. He ment it because he knew that it was the only way to protect both Draco and Harry and save his own life plus strenghtening his position with Voldemort.

5. I think Snape knew that Harry was there, in the Astronomy tower. He must have guessed it, with Hermione and Ginny at his door and Ron, Neville and Luna fighting alongside with the teachers... Yet he never mentioned it to the other Death Eaters.

6. Why did Snape find Narcissas tears indecent? Why can't he stand people touching him? It is like his heart just froze at one point and he needs to live without any positive emotion for the rest of his life. I find it hard to believe that this is only do to him having a serious crush on Lily when they were at school, even if he does blame himself for her death. He can't punish himself for ever... there's got to be more... but what?

7. You said that Snape only bluffed when he told Narcissa he knew the plan and that it might have been Draco only was to let the Death Eaters in, which would fit, because he said he needed no qualification to do the job... You know, you really scare me!
What if Snape killed Dumbledore meaning to fullfill the vow and Draco was never ment to kill Dumbledore?
Luckily Draco tells Dumbledore he has a job to do, indicating he wants to kill him. So no worry about that anymore.

8. Just one thing I noticed... Madame Pince... she has sunken cheeks, a skin like parchment and a long hooked nose. Hallo? Pince... Prince... Coincidence? I think not...

9. About the conversation Hagrid overheard: I seriously doubt Snape didn't want to work for Voldemort anymore. I rather think he told Dumbledore that he didn't want to kill him anymore and that he'd die himself breaking the vow.

10. Snape didn't want to expel Harry. Now, why's that? He told Bellatrix he just did about everything to get rid of Harry, because he doesn't belong in Hogwarts... weird... I should think Snape would want to report Harry to Dumbledore. He wouldn't have to be afraid about the potions book, wouldn't he? Because even if anybody realized that Snape is the HBP and that it was his handwriting (come to think of it, in "Snapes Worst Memory" his writing is described as minute and tiny and hard to read while in HBP Hermione says it looks like a girls writing... hm, did Lily have a hand in it?) nobody would bother really. Dumbledore surely knew that Snape did Dark Magic in his schooldays plus he noted the spell "for enemies", so the outcome is not really hard to predict... I think Snape was... well, not really glad... but still... he saw that Harry was progressing and he didn't mind that Harry used the Dark Arts.

11. Did you realize that Dumbledore again didn't tell Harry the whole truth? He was thinking about it when Harry asked, but all he said is that he trusted Snape.
The one thing that will be revealed will have such a huge impact on Harry... *sigh* I want to know what it is!

12. What do you think, did Snape open Harrys mind when he taught him Occlumency? It certainly seemed so... there are still a couple of things which tempt me to believe that Snape really is evil. *sigh*
But I don't want that!

Okay, enough.

Flutterflie

I thought that maybe Snape opened Harry's mind during Occlumency, but then reread this stuff and I saw that Snape was angry and broke the connection between them when Harry tried to understand his vision (when he understood it's all about the department of mysteries), so I suspect that Snape was angry because he and DD tried to stop Harry from running to this place and Harry did the opposite (being tempted to discover what's going on in his dreams).

So in my opinion he was working for DD then. And Harry couldn't learn it properly because he couldn't concentrate. His problem is that Snape was always making him stressed and furious .

I think its clear that Dumbledore is dead. JK Rowling said in her interview:

ES: It was probably 65/35, but definitely, most thought he was going to die.

JKR: Yeah, well, I think if you take a step back, in the genre of writing that I'm working in, almost always the hero must go on alone. That's the way it is, we all know that, so the question is when and how, isn't it, if you know anything about the construction of that kind of plot.

ES: The wise old wizard with the beard always dies.

JKR: Well, that's basically what I'm saying, yes.

I think its crucial that Dumbledore is actually dead, but it makes Harry grow up so quickly. It also makes him realize that no one is safe from Voldemort, and it gives him the drive to finish things once and for all.

OK, maybe he's dead, but not in the total 'dead' sense, if you know what I mean... this portrait... the phoenix (will it come back?).

bobotber_pus - I agree that she is going to try to change things for us - things not being what they seem and all especially

And yes, Harry does judge people a lot - don't we all? I think there's always that one teacher that you can't stand and that you always know can't stand you, whatever the reason. But I think he judges Snape most harshly (with good reason). He lets things that most of the Gryffindors do slide by, but when it comes to other people he doesn't know so well, he judges.

I think it's also the role of the teenager to be misunderstood. No one gives them the whole story, no one thinks they can handle too much. But Harry has proven over and over than he can handle more than most adults! Then again, if he got the whole story, so would we, and then it wouldn't be quite so exciting to read....

Flutterflie - I actually had to pull up a second screen so I wouldn't forget anything. I wish I had two monitors!! These half screens are too cramped!!

1. I think you make a good point here. Especially since Voldemort has proven that he can access Harry's mind and vice versa - if Harry knew the "real story" so would Voldemort and then would good would a fake death be? I'm not sure that DD thought Harry could make that conclusion (about following orders) though it is certainly possible. The hard part there is, from Harry's perspective, Snape defied and betrayed DD.

2. I'm not sure on the whole Severus thing. I was hoping someone else might shed some light on it, but I think it's crucial that it was changed. DD was ALWAYS correcting Harry - "Snape..." "PROFESSOR Snape..." So why suddenly Severus? I've read some interesting posts (and I don't want to start a whole new discussion on that ) that perhpas the stuff DD drank turned him (DD) into a Horcrux or somehow linked him with Voldemort, thus making him refer to Snape by his first name. (Again, another topic for another post. I don't even BEGIN to want to try to field this one.... )

3. I'm not sure about the memory falsification thing. It just jumped out at me. When Harry was going into the memories with DD, they showed how Voldemort's uncle's memory was changed to make him think he'd killed people. The same thing happened with the house elf and the lady who had the artifacts that Tom Riddle wanted. It was just odd that Malfoy was vehemently deying having had anything to do with the necklace and then suddenly, he's admitting it. I found it peculiar and wondered if it had anything to do with the memory mod stuff? As to how or why, I was hoping someone else could answer that...

4. It's possible Snape meant it, but I still find it odd that there was noise accompanying every other avada kedavara death we've witnessed, but not DD's. It just keeps sticking in my head what Bellatrix said, "You've really got to MEAN it' (I don't have the book in front of me, so it's not an exact quote...)

5. I'm not sure if Snape knew Harry was there or not. If he was communicating with DD through legillimency, then he might have. But regardless, you're right, he gave nothing away.

6. I'm not sure if he had the crush on Lily or not. But I found it an interesting choice of words that Narcissa's tears were described as "indecent". It has been suggested elsewhere that Snape used his legillemency powers just then and deduced what the plan / task was for Draco. The word just struck me as odd...

7. I hope I'm scaring you in a good way I'll tie back to #6 here, perhaps Snape used legillimency and knew the plan, perhaps not. But I think we're meant to believe one thing, but Rowling likes to throw us off track. Never accept the obvious But Draco telling DD he wants to kill him may be a personal wish. I just find it really really odd that LV would send a "kid" (no offense intended to anyone who is 16!) to kill the greatest wizard of the times. If LV himself can't even defeat Harry, why would LV send someone with incomplete training to kill Harry's superior? I'd think LV would want the honor himself.

8. Madame Pince does have some simliar qualities to the Princes. Thus far, we've not seen any interactions between Snape & Mdm Pince, so anything's possible. She does seem to actively dislike Harry too - though that could just be his perspective...

9. That's also a possibility, but I tend to lean the other way.

10. I'm not sure if Snape was afraid. Maybe he was shocked at what had happened. But his exuberance to get rid of Harry for the past 5 years, makes it really odd that he's not having further punishment(s) for a crime SO severe. DD really would have no way to prove that Snape had anything to do with it. It was DD himself who told Harry to borrow a book from Slughorn. Slughorn gave it to him. Snape had nothing to do with it. Does anyone else know that Snape called himself the HBP?

11. I guess if DD gave us all the info, it would leave nothing to be revealed in book 7. Wonder if it's going to end on a cliffhanger? One day, we'll have all the answers...maybe....if Rowling is nice to us...

12. I'm not sure that Snape really opened Harry's mind. I think Snape was really trying to teach him but Harry didn't want to let it happen. I think he liked being "in the know" since everyone has kept everything from him his whole life. I think he feels he can handle it, just like I felt I could handle anything when I was a teenager. I think curiosity took over and I think he was just being a little defiant. But in all honesty, from what I've read, it seems like Harry was the one who failed there, not Snape. (Ignoring the fact that Snape quit when things got too personal.)

bobotuber_pus - "what he said." (Thanks for putting it so well )

parselmouth - I think that DD is not going to appear for quite some time in book 7. Harry does have to learn to stand on his own to feet and fend for himself (though I think he's been doing a smash up job himself already...).

But Rowling picks her words very carefully. So unless she said, "Yes, he has to die," there's room for interpretation. For example - BASICALLY she's saying he has to die, but maybe not in book 6, he'll just go away for a bit. I do agree that he will have to die by the end of book 7 so Harry can succeed him, but I just don't think it's yet... (Though Harry and everyone else are meant to think it's now....)

bobotuber_pus - again "what he said". That phoenix rising out of the ashes of DD's --tomb?-- was just a little too coincidental if ya know what I mean - especially since we were told Fawkes left Hogwarts forever at the end of the previous chapter. It's little things that come back to haunt us. Look at the little adventure with the polyjuice potion. It came back in a big way next book..



Ok, now that I've said all THAT, I'm going to take a break My fingers are tired . (Besides, there's no more posts to reply to...). But I'll check back again soon...

You asked why Malfoy said to Snape that he hadn't done this thing with the necklace and he said to DD that he'd done it.

Why? Maybe not memory modifying, but Malfoy said this to Snape because he hadn't trust him, he thought "He wants to steal my glory" (I don't think he was meaning his Hand of Glory ) and he admitted DD that he'd done it because he wished to be praised by DD how clever he was.

One thought: what if Voldemort sent Draco to kill DD because he wanted to check Narcissa's and Snape's loyalty too? He might have suspected that she'd go to Snape to get help. It was a betrayal of his orders, Narcissa and Malfoy may be punished like hell for that.

I don't understand something- Voldemort's evil, but not stupid not to realise that Draco won't succeed. What was it? a torture for Narcissa or something else? but what?

i`m sure that snpae is on the good side......look here....



in every need dumbledoor asked for snape....

snape saved dumbledoor`s life one

in book 5 he could have done Occlumency. with dumbledoor not with snape....he had free time for harry even with the finding quest of the Horcruxes......in book 5 he wasn`t doing it....that means that snape and dumbledoor have something that they don`t know about......

in book 5 lord wasn`t expecting company at the ministery...snape could`ve warned him because he was in the order...and much more



the stuff about dumbledoor faking death is super cool.....its really good.....maybe he just wanted some free time to look for the Horcruxes...and with that malfoy is ok......and harry heard that the curse was a deathly one.....everything fits.....this stuff is really great


i know this now...dumbledoor is not dead...it can`t be......


i have a wish:to talk with j.k.Rowling right now....can`t wait for the 7 book


and look here

MA: Now that Dumbledore is gone, will we ever know the spell that he was trying to cast on Voldemort in the Ministry?

JKR: Uuuummmm...[makes clucking noise with tongue ]

ES: Let the record show she made a funny sound with her mouth.

[All laugh, Jo maniacally.]

JKR: It’s possible, it's possible that you will know that. You will — [pause] — you will know more about Dumbledore. I have to be sooo careful on this.

this shows us that DD is not dead or that he`ll be mentioned in the 7 book very much......i really beleive that DD is alive....thats the way its gonna be


MOD EDIT: Your post contained a lot of net-speak which is against the forum rules. I have edited it for you this time, but in future please keep in mind that this site is read by people who do not have english as a first language. Also there is no need to make the letters so large, people can read them at normal size. PLease drop by the rules if you haven't already.

bobotuber_pus It's possible that it went as you say it did, but there's a couple of things I'm curious about - when IS the memory modifying going to turn up again - because we most definitely know it will! - and when will the idea of polyjuice potion / not listening to the MoM advice and setting up passwords come into play? Because you know THAT will too. Malfoy & goons are already doing it. Hmmm....(I like the pun, by the way....)

I think it's quite possible that Voldemort's task - whatever it might be - was to check everyone's loyalty. Maybe he used legillimency on someone - you can't be protected all the time - Harry proved that when he broke into Snape's memories.

I wonder if it were a torture for Narcissa? I mean, say the task really was for Draco to kill DD. Would anyone really believe that a 16-year old would have the power - not to mention the nerve - to kill this great wizard? Does that mean he won't be completeting his 7th year as well? (Is JK advocating for people to drop out of school - seems to be a trend J/K (as in...Just Kidding...)). I guess at times of open warfare, there are things more important than N.E.W.T.s...

profetu you're right about Snape not warning Voldemort. He (Snape) sent the OoP to the MoM, but the DEs were already there on Voldemort's orders. So in a sense, Snape created a trap for the DE. I'm sure the OoP knew what they were in for. But the DEs were obviously surprised - Bellatrix even says the teenagers were joined by the OoP as though that were a surprise. Normally I would think LV might have set them (the DEs) up as well, but when a task as crucial as the prophecy were at stake, he'd have used everything he had - especially if there had been news from Snape. Which there obviously wasn't. Snape was definitely helping the OoP during the battle at the MoM...

Thank you

I think we'd all like to talk to Rowling, but that would kill the suspense - not to mention all the chat room talks, postings, websites, etc...

That's a great quote too. If I were the reporter, I'd have asked another question - what would happen to the secret protections on Grimmuald Place if the secret keeper were to die? DD is the secret keeper for the Order. Is there more than one secret (besides the hiding of the location)? Does it mean the charm(s) is / are broken or are they eternal? Can anyone new every find Grimmuald Place? Is that where Malfoy & Narcissa are going to wind up?

That could be really intersting, given all the dark magic objects that are in Grimmuald Place. Come to think of it, Snape had access to all of those things but as far as we know, he never touched them.... (One food for thought question (which is more appropriate for another dicussion, but this is the one I'm spending the most time in) - wasn't there a locket-that-no-one-could-open found at Grimmuald Place that was "thrown away". (Think HORCRUX...) Wonder if Kreacher took it back or if it's now at Hogwarts.....

Forgotten - All I have to go on is what was posted here. Rowling talks about the death having to happen, but the question being "when" and "how"? She also uses the words ALMOST ALWAYS has to go...

[QUOTE}ES: It was probably 65/35, but definitely, most thought he was going to die.

JKR: Yeah, well, I think if you take a step back, in the genre of writing that I'm working in, almost always the hero must go on alone. That's the way it is, we all know that, so the question is when and how, isn't it, if you know anything about the construction of that kind of plot.

ES: The wise old wizard with the beard always dies.

JKR: Well, that's basically what I'm saying, yes. [/QUOTE]

Hmmmm...

parselmouth Do we have any more info on that quote? Where it's from? What was said before or after? Maybe we can pick out some more clues....

Thanks for all your support and information! (even when something is challenged, I consider it to be support becaue you took the time to read and comment and give everyone room to discuss it.)

If Rowling said that this book 6 is connected to book 2, I think about 2 possibilities:
1.Snape was badly accused in the book 6, the same was with Hagrid accused to open the chamber of secrets and they both are faithful DD's servants,
2. DD said in book 2 that phoenixes die when their time comes and they're reborn from ashes, and they can carry heavy things!

bobotuber_pus - I wholeheartedly agree about the phoenixes being reborn from the ashes - ESPECIALLY with the phoenix that Harry sees coming out of the FIRE that spontaneously erupted around DD's body.....

And I like the connection about them both being falsely accuesed. Hadn't thought of that one, but it's good

thank you You know, i think it's one of my best guesses lately

I simply can't imagine how Dumbledore was able to believe Snape and be wrong. No way! DD was right when it comes to Tom Riddle, he was the one who wasn't fooled by his nice behaviour at school and now we have Severus and everybody knows that he's terrifying and DD trusts him? So: don't judge people by appearances!

Jeannine--Wow! great post!

I personally believe that Dumbledore really is dead as dead can be. I'd be very disappointed if it turned out he were still alive in book 7. But I am convinced that Snape is still loyal to the Order, and that what happened on top of the tower must have been planned by both Dumbledore and Snape.

As for why DD asks specifically for "Severus," maybe I'm naive, but I really think that this is simple straight forward narrative logic. He has clearly been very badly hurt and is need of attention. It has already been stated in the book that when it comes to healing wounds inflicted by Dark Magic, Snape is far superior to Madame Pomfrey. This makes sense; the latter seems mostly to be a school nurse, whereas Snape is an extremely powerful wizard with an intimate knowledge of both the Dark Arts and potions. I think the fact that he calls him "Severus" instead of "Professor Snape" is due entirely to Dumbledore's weakened phyiscal and mental condition. For, surely, in their personal interaction DD would call him "Severus" (and in fact at one point says to Harry, "I trust Severus Snape" instead of "Professor Snape"); under the conditions, one would expect that a near dead Dumbledore would speak without thoughts of formality, decorum, and teacher-student etiquette filtering what he says.

Amazing work, Jeannine!!!!!

I agree with almost everything you said, and am very impressed with your well backed theories!!! What a magnificent job you did!

Here are a few thoughts for questions you had, and one additional interpretation to one of your comments.

1. Snape stunned Flitwick when he came to Snape's office to get help, to keep Luna and Hermione from joining in and getting hurt. Flitwick probably could have held his own against the DEs, but Snape was worried about the students.

2. Why didn't the other cabinet transport Harry in the Cos when he hid from the Malfoys in Borgin and Burkes? I think it was because he never really closed the door fully. Remember, he was trying to peek out enough to see what was going on, and even when he closed it so they coudn't see him, it was never closed completely.

3. Malfoy's not qualified for the job of killing DD. Perhaps Harry has shown LV what an unqualified wizard is capable of. LV has always underestimated young wizards, as shown by the boat in the cave. Perhaps in his older age, LV has realized different, and thought that DD would never suspect a student of such a crime. It could also be, as Narcissa said, that LV did not want Draco to succeed and hoped that he'd be killed in the attempt.

4. Snape is a genius in potions. I believe differently. I think back when he used the book, Snape was not good at potions, hence the extra notes needed in the book. I think that Lily was the one who was a genius in potions, as Slughorn reminded Harry ad nauseum! I think the notes in Snapes book were notes from Lily. If he was so good himself, why would he need to make notes? I think he was a genius at Dark spells, eg. sectumsempra...

There are many things about Severus Snape we don't know yet... I believe he's a really powerful wizard simply hidden for some aims. I think that he simply may have invented the potions itself as he did the same with sectumsempra. I don't think that Lily had helped him with this!

Snape hates Harry because she saved her life for him. Harry looks like James, behaves much like James (but Harry deosn't like being a star, what Snape doesn't see or pretends not to see). Harry's got the ability to kill LV, so he's a big star indeed, even bigger than James.

Snape hates showing mental weaknesses, that's why Narcissa's tears were indecent and that's why he's so severe for his students.

Snape likes being appreciated, I think it comes from his childhood.

We don't know if James really took off Severus's pants, and if he did so, sorry, I prefer Severus to James

Great arguments from everyone. I have been dying to add some of my own thoughts...

I do believe that Dumbledore is dead. I don't see any way that he could have avoided death. But, I do agree with the idea that he and Snape had developed some kind of a plan. The Unbreakable Vows Snape had made with Narcissa never included forbidding Snape from telling others about the Vows. I don't know if it's an important loophole, but Snape would have been able to tell Dumbledore about the promises he had made...which would have allowed them to formulate a plan, as many brilliantly pointed out.

As for the Occlumency lessons, Snape only put a couple of thoughts into the Pensieve. I think that if Snape really was deceiving the Order, he would have put many more thoughts into the Pensieve. If Snape was helping Voldemort, he would have many dark, treacherous memories that he wouldn't want Harry to see. But instead, we find out that he has only a few thoughts that he does not want Harry to glimpse--and these thoughts seem to be embarrassing, not deceitful.

Snape is such a wonderfully complex character. He may be bitter, but that is simply to hide his vulnerabilities. He also has complicated ties to many of the other characters in the book. I think Rowling could easily write seven books on him alone. Indeed, there are so many questions about him that we don't have answered. I especially want to know about his past. I hope that we get to explore and learn more about Snape's background in book 7. I am with all those who say that they would be devastated if Snape does turn out to be evil to the core.

I've read everyone's posts but don't have time to reply just yet. I'm excited though I've also been rereading HBP and have found some more interesting things - IE: when Harry enters DD's office for their first lesson with the Pensieve, DD's office is described as having pictures of FORMER headmasters / headmistresses. NOTE: It did not say DEAD....

Anyway, I'll write more soon...

I'll write it once again here because I think my idea is good:

what if snape called himself "a half-blood prince" because he felt more connected to his mother than his father? Why didn't he called himself "a half-blood Snape"? Maybe he- like Voldemort- didn't like to feel connection between him and his father?

Okay. Forst of all, i would just like to say a shout out to Jeannine and commend her on all her hard work... Deconstructing texts is one of the most satisfying things one can do with their time - and you have seriously used your time well.
Also, it is great to be able to talk about your findings with other people who are passionate about the same text.

Everyone's posts were really good - not saying that i agree with every one, but every point that was made up included evidence to support.
Well Done.

I have some answers to some of the questions that people have asked through out this whole thread.

1. In response to Jeannine's question 'why did DD use Petrificus Totalu's on Harry?'

I do believe that the events of that night were somewhat planned by DD and Snape. And that DD intended Harry to witness the events. In OOTP, in the MoM when DD and Voldemort are duelling or talking, some of their conversation revolves around the idea of death. (i don't have my book with me so i can't give direct quotes or anything) DD tells Voldemort that there are worse things than death and such.
I think that DD wanted Harry to be present becaseu he wished to show harry that death is not something to be feared. Death is a natural thing. And death is what Voldemort fears most, i mean look at all the drastic attempts he has made to secure life. for example, splitting his soul up, drinking unicorn's blood, co-habiting bodies with people etc.
It would be only natural that DD would want to seperate the opinions that Voldemort holds for death with those that harry has... especially because death has been so common in harry's life and harry already holds many negative associations with death. And let's not forget that with death there can be rebirth..... just look at pheonix's

I also believe that in maintaining the traditional plot structures of this genre, the 'old, wise mentor figure' has to inevitably die.
It is fantasy 101.... if you read ANY fantasy/sci -fi novel or series it is all the same.
I am not suggesting that DD is completely GONE (becasue that is what sets fantasies against each other- who can be the most unique with a defined plot structure?.

Therefore I am officially stating my support for the pheonix theory - which is something that i suggested to my friends, family and anyone who would listen after reading the Chamber of Secrets. I think that DD is dead - as in he will no longer be in human form -. Possibly in the seventh book he will return to Harry in his hour of need, just to give him strength, to focus his mind with some soothing music perhaps....

I also think that Snape was aware of Harry's presence during the last fight. Snape has constantly sopken of harry's need to be the hero etc, and after establishing that ron, hermione and other members of the DA were fighting, snape would have already guessed where harry might be. especially if snape and DD had discussed this event.

Ummm what else to add.....

Oh... The whole thing with Malfoy being given this seemingly impossible task is irrelevant. i think that Voldemort was merely testing boundaries. He was using MAlfoy because of Lucius's actions. Also, he (V) knew that DD would not kill a student, especially one whose family is under his command. Voldemort sees it as DD weakness. I think Voldemort was also testing Snape possibly. In which case, he will be pleased with the results - or not. Becasue it might seem as though killing DD was too easy???.... hmmmm

i think that is all i have to add at the moment...

I posted on the other thread and ill post here to,
Why did DD get thrown from the tower, When every other wizard and muggle in history when subbjected to the AK curse just ,,, DIE,, no damage no effect they just Died other than as DD poined out in book HBP to Harry the SCAR that harry recieved.
Why would the Author go out of her way to tell harry that people who get hit by the AK curse just die,, no outward damge ect,,, in the very book where one of the main heroes get hit with the curse and is thrown from the tower. It makes no sence unless you are the worlds WORST author when it comes to continuity or you need to fire your editor your copyhouse and your proof reader.

Now that being said JK has shown in the past books to be weak in continuity .. I hope this isnt one of them and DD is alive still,

I must admit that i think it is exceptional wishfull thinking for people to believe that Dumbledore is still alive (although i will mention that the fact that noone saw the body after it was removed from the bottom of the tower and the pheonix are all niggling little occurances.)

However at the moment i am torn between two different explainations.

The one i dont wish it to be which is that Dumbledore is dead, and Snape evil (as alluded to be JKR's interviews -then again what else WOULD SHE SAY)

However my main belief is that Dumbledore is dead and Snape is not evil but working on some scheme worked out between himself an dumbledore.
Ill warn you that much of my reasoning does not lie in exact definition and interpretation of single sentences or words.

*- in previous books we have seen an adventure, puzzles and clues that need to be worked out in order to come to some great need for action and culmination, after which some of the events are still unconcluded. at the end of the book Dumbledore will sit Harry down and explain to him the precise meaning of the things that have occurred. As such Dumbledore has been made into a sort of omnipotent leader, which despite his deeply human side, has appeared infallible and a deliverer, of Harry, from the terrors that beset him.
However in HBP we see Rowling creating a much more human character, and detailing implicitly weaknesses of Dumbledore. One plain example physically is Dumbledores withered hand (have we ever seen him physically hurt before this?)
In addition, much of the book is built up in Dumbledores process of illuminating the goings on in Voldemorts life, and setting out the path which Harry must follow in order to defeat Voldemort. In this way he is giving the tools Harry needs to continue on his own. he is no longer retaining information only to be given out slowly and when neccessary. As such at the end of the book it can be said that Harry doesnt need Dumbledore anymore (obviously in a very crude sense) in that he knows now the details of what he must do.
Also i think Rowling has deliberately removed all fatherly or immediately protective influences of Harrys life in order to force him to make his decisions for himself between what is easy and what is right. I believe now she is forcing him to decide for himself instead of relying on th guidance of those around him.

As for Snape-

*i think the unbreakable vow that we see at the beginning which sows the first seeds of doubt into our mind (why would he make an unbreakable vow if he is on the order of Pheonix side?) and the ending which is very straight down the line and obvious all add together to make this new "evil snape" not what he seems.
Firstly we see the unbreakable vow which begins the questioning, then the apparent attempts to help draco which again are uncertain (is he? isnt he?) but at the end snape comes up, kills Dumbledore, protects malfoy, runs away, shouts about his half-blood prince nick name, all alongside his new apparent deatheater chums.
this strikes me as far to obvious and forthwright a description for the character of snape who continuly, throughout the entire series of books has had a multitude of "is he evil? or isnt he?" occurrances.
why crete such a irksome character only to categorically state what side his is on at the end of the 6th book? surely this would be best kept for a grand finale in the 7th... a greater test of snape. i believe so, although im well aware counterpoints can be made to my claims

OK, my thoughts after rereading half of the half blood prince:
1. Snape's excuses to bellatrix are convincing.
2. Snape lies (or he doesn't tell the whole truth) when he says that Harry has no extraordinary talent at all. As a Dark Wizard- yes, but not as a good wizard.
2.Snape says that he remained hidden while Death eaters tried to take the prophecy because he was ordered to. But he passes the information from harry when he said that Voldemort was killing Sirius. The question is: IF SNAPE HAD KNOWN VOLDEMORT'S PLANS ABOUT IT EARLIER?
3.Snape's hand shook while the third rart of the vow (carrying out the did that VD told Draco to perform).
4. By constants saying that Sirius was safely hidden, Snape provoked his death.
5. Snape says that DD suffered a lot last month. Did he mean his blackened hand, because it was last month... I guess that not, because it was said that the fight happened few weeks ago and DD didn't have any serious injury then. A lie or he doesn't want to say Bella about the Horcrux?
6. DD knew that DADA job was cursed and he gives Snape the DADA job. He knew that Snape would be able to do this for only 1 year. It may have been a plan: to show Voldemort that he trusts Snape completely or he really trusted Snape and wanted to give him a prize. But what for if he knows that it would be only for a year? Isn't it like that DD knew about their plans and that Snape would have to escape?
Also, with Snape taching DADA, not Potions, Harry is able to continue his study to become an Auror.
7. Snape learns his students non-verbal spells. It's strange when we assume that it really helps in fighting with the enemy, but I guess that the school plan was to teach it in sixth year.
8. Maybe he left the Half- Blood prince's book to let Harry learn well potions. It helped Harry to win Felix Felicis!
9. Harry thinks "The half- blood prince had proved a much more effectiv teacher than Snape so far".
10. Snape didn't know about the necklace? It ws Rosmerta's job and he told Malfoy that Malfoy'd dome it, but Malfoy said he hadn't (he had a detention with Mc Gonagall). Snape maybe didn't know about Draco's plans, because he insisted on telling him what are his plans and telling him the thing with necklace was stupid. Draco didn't want to tell him about his plans "he wants to steal my glory"- He didn't believe Snape and learnt Occlumency.

My hand aches...

What an opening post! long, but intresting

I only believed that Snape really killed DD when he was buried, but i still not think that he will turn out to be good. Jo hinted, that we shouldnt like him that much. She gave her reasons in this book.

Only thing that bothers me, is the fact that he agreed immadiately that he is making the unbreakable vow. Weird. Especially if we consider that he did it against LV's orders. Draco should have killed DD alone. I think there will be huge consequences. Snape sad: the Dark Lord's word is a law.

No, Snape didn't agree immediately. He hesitated and Bellatrix was making fun of him, that he always escapes when something serious is demanded form him.

I don't know, really, our suspitions can go in both ways and everything will suit. I know that Rowling said that she was amazed we liked Snape, but she was laughing then too It's all so twisted

I'm standing for Snape for the following reasons:
1. I like him
2. Omitting the fact I like him, I see that the proofs can "swing both ways" and I just can't understand why would she make such an obvious thing in her book, I mean, OK, when DD lived, he always explained everything in the end of the book and here... let's say, everything was explained. For me- everything and nothing. There are too many questions and there's something to it, that she let us think about it.
3. I don't think that the last part "Harry- is-looking-for-Horcruxes- with-Ron-and-Hermione" would be as interesting like the other books used to be.
4. I think that people who don't have the net will be convinced that DD died for ever and Snape is this bad guy if they don't look deeper.
5. I wish I was right :D

WOW!!!

Excellent points to ponder. I also wonder...could Dumbledore have asked Snape to kill him (instead of Malfoy) because he knew a) Malfoy couldn't do it, and that after his death he would be reborn - just as a Phoenix is reborn of it's ashes.

I wholeheartedly agree with the theories of DD being an animagus, as a Phoenix. What would happen when an animagus dies? Could DD's soul transform and then as a Phoenix be reborn?

Perhaps in book 7 we will meet the newly reborn Dumbledore...so he isn't really gone, just unable to assist Harry due to being a newborn baby wizard.

Excellent! Very well done indeed.

I believe that you, Jeannine, are absolutely correct and I think all of your evidence points in exactly that direction, however, I believe the most important point to consider is that if the opposite of what you have attested to is correct, well then, the books themselves will have been totally misleading.

If, for example, Severus is indeed evil, then the whole theme that love is the most powerful magic absolutely contradicts what DD and JKR have stated throughout the series. In other words, if Snape is indeed evil and did indeed kill DD, for there is no greater evil than murder, then the love that DD has bestowed upon Snape would have been made null and void.

In a similar vane. If DD is actually dead and JKR has truly blown it in terms of consistancy with how she has portrayed the Avadra Kedavra, curse, then how would harry, who was certainly doubting the power of love in DD's office, ever believe that DD was even remotely correct. Which, in turn, would make Harry's action to kill LV, not an act of heroic proportions, but simply one of revenge. And if revenge becomes Harry's motive, that would allow the hatred of LV to posess him.

No! I think it necessary that DD is correct in his assertion that love is indeed the most powerful magic. And for this to be true Snape cannot have murdered DD and thus DD cannot have died at Snape's hand. Further more Harry must be able to believe that love is more powerful in order to defeat LV. Harry has had little to convince him of this and I think in reality if DD was in fact murdered by Snape then Harry, just as anyone, would seriously doubt the strength and power that love truly has.

Jeannine, that was absolutely masterful work! I read the whole thing, twice, and am still going back to it for some references when I am concoting my own little pet theories... You have done a lot of research and it shows!

I agree with 99% of what you advance in your theories. And where we diverge, we do not do so by much...

I believe we haven't seen the last of Dumbledore, even if he only pops in through his portrait (although I still am keen on the phoenix theory). Snape will, in the end, be shown to be a good guy, and will help Harry greatly in his coming quest.

I really thought the post following Jeannine's original essay were also very good, whether they agreed with her theories or not. Debating the merits of our pet theories is definitely a lot of fun. Who knows, I might even throw in some of mine when they are ready for public consumption...

Samsmom, I think you have had a stroke of genius with your theory about Snape getting help from Lilly in potions... Perhaps the deep, dark secret about Lilly will be that she and Snape had a thing that went bad or fell apart... If they were Lilly's notes to help Snape, it may be why Harry felt so safe using them?

Well, I am off... Will definintely be looking forward to more!

Cheers!

Jeanine, just wanted to say how interesting your post was. I read it all and it stimulated lots of ideas and things to pay more attention to on my second reading.

I just wondered, had you come across a reason in HBP why there happened to be a huge cauldron of polyjuice potion hanging around ?

Wow, I have read dozens of forums commenting on the Harry Potter books, and none of them came close to your perspective, and what I believe to be as close to the truth as possible. I agree with 99% of your deductions and wish to share one of my deductions with you: Lily and Snape's relationship.

I would appreciate any feedback on my deduction. Thwart it if you may, but please substantiate your reprisal. I do not understand why no one has made this connection before or maybe I have just not stumbled upon it :-)

I believe there is more to Lily, Snape and the Half-Blood Prince's potions book. Did you notice how Slughorn continually compared Harry's masterful potion-brewing ability to that of his mother? Not SNAPE, but LILY. Especially when he commented on the Euphoria potion that Harry concocted on page 444. Slughorn distinctly says

"- its just your mother's genes coming out in you".

I assume this means that Lily did something similar (and special) to her Euphoria potion. If she did, does it mean that Snape copied her ideas into his book? Or that she copied Snape's? A possibility could be that they had a relationship (boyfriend-girlfriend or just friends) and therefore compared notes. At the end of the book, this was the one thing that kept bothering me. The fact that the Half Blood prince seemed alot like Lily (according to Slughorns compliments) rather than Snape. How could the Half-Blood Prince and Lily have SO MUCH IN COMMON?

I think we may be thinking along similar lines, Hermyl. I, too, noticed that Professor Slughorn was indeed constantly commenting on Harry's abilities in Potions being the result of his mother's past skill having been passed on to him somehow. It is very telling, I think, that we were supposed to get a major revelation about Lilly in Book 6 and to have such information as this included therein. After all, no one said it would be a blatant revelation, perhaps JKR wanted us to do some work to sort it all out...

There certainly seems to be something more to the Lilly/Snape/James triangle than was first mad apparent in previous books. We will not find out for certain until sometime in 2007...

Until then, let's try and wring as much out of the material we do have as we can...

Cheers!

Snape says that James used his spells against him...

These potion notes look like both Snape and Lily could invent them. But Sectumsempra and Levicorpus doesn't suit me to be Lily's. Maybe there were Lily's clues that Snape wrote down, and maybe Lily used Snape's clues and seemed to be better at potions. There's a clue that there was something between them because they both were good at potions, they must have contacted.