I was just thinking about the order and it came to me that they are not very good. They have been in two battles with the deatheaters and two times they have had their butts handed to them. I know that in the battle at the end of OOTP that loads of deatheaters were caught and voldemort was driven back and stoped from hearing the prophecy but if you ask me that was all thanks to dumbledore. I am fast coming to the conclusion that to be in the order the only qualification you need is to not be able to fight your way out of a paper bag. Maybe it a ruse to make voldemort think that they are useless, i don't know if it has worked on voldemort but it's worked on me. Maybe dumbledore death was the kick up the butt they needed to make them fight back, what do you think?

UPDATE

I can not understand why most people think all because the darkside use darkmagic that it therefore makes them the greater power because it simple doesn't. We know that when moody was in his prime, he was the best auror the MOM had and we also know he didn't use darkmagic and at the end of OOTP when dumbledore beats the combined might of 11 deatheaters and voldemort he didn't use darkmagic as well. Like i have just showen you darkmagic is not greater than normal magic, it is seen to be. At the end of the day it comes down to how good the wizard/witch is and the sad truth of the matter is that the members of the order are not that good. Yes they have moody and dumbledore but moody is pass his prime and we now all know about dumbledore and just how much he was pass his prime.

First off, if the order was useless then the DE's would have gone silently into hogwarts and killed DD without anyone knowing but some order members were there and as Draco said himself, "Some of your Order members got in our way." I don't think that that makes them useless.

The only reason the Order wasn't in the HBP was because it focused on Harry and DD and finding the Horocurx's and Voldemort's past. And another reason that the Order was focused on the 5th book is because it was called The ORDER of the Phenoix.

I believe that in the the final book, they will be more involved or i should say focused on.

The Order are pretty decent fighters. In OotP, they were vastly outnumbered, they managed to catch many of the Death Eaters who were at the ministry, and only suffered one casualty - Sirius.

Then, in HBP, even though they were outnumbered again, none of them got killed - well apart from Dumbledore, obviously - and one of the Death Eaters died. They managed to prevent anyone at the school from getting seriously hurt. I'd say they did pretty well.

Plus the main function of the Order is finding information for Dumbledore, and spying on Voldemort (ie. Dung getting information from his fellow crooks, Lupin spying on Werewoves, Snape spying on DEs). They're not supposed to be mercinaries.

I don't think the Order do that badly. Granted, in the end of OOTP, Dd puts an 'anti-apparation' spell on the Ministry, so that they can't get away, however it's the rest of the Order who are fighting them and doing their part of capture them.

However I guess I question as to what exactly do you expect from them? Moody is an experienced Auror, however is slowed by his injuries. Kinglsey and Tonks are Aurors so you'd expect that they'd be pretty good at actually capturing the dark wizards. However Lupin, Sirius (talking in the OOTP), Arthur, Bill, Molly etc... what exactly would make them any better wizards/witches than Bellatrix, Lucius, Peter etc? They are normal wizards who have volunteered themselves to support a cause. They aren't super heroes and the few members of the Order that exist shouldn't be expected to bring down the entire army of the Dark Lord's.

Granted, you would hope that they would have some superior skills to offer in their tasks, but I don't think that it should be expected that the Order only consists of the best wizards. I think that they'd be wanting to take anyone that they can get who believes in bringing down LV in whatever way he or she can.

Just a thought.

I am going on the record and saying that the Order hasn't done that bad. I mean, they suffered one death during the battle at the Ministry and they suffered an attack on Bill by a werewolf during the battle at Hogwarts. That seems pretty good I guess.

Let's back up. Sure the Order was outnumbered at the Ministry, but they did hold there own. But, you can't hold them responsible for capturing the Death Eaters because that was all Dumbledore's doing.

We only caught the last part of he battle at Hogwarts, so the only thing we have to go on is what McGonagall and the ohers said. One Death Eater died, but didn't he die from the killing curse that came from his wand or one of his fellow Death Eater's wands? So honestly, what has the Order done...

Lets face it, Harry, Ron, Hermoine, Ginny, Neville, and Luna did much better in the two battles than the Order, and the're only 15/16 years old.

Will add that Hermione was 17 too and so was Ron.

I think the Order does well they aren't an Army that is soppose to capture every Death Eater. They Spy and protect things and people.

I am fast coming to the conclusion that to be in the order the only qualification you need is to not be able to fight your way out of a paper bag. I think that is mean. Give them a brake they aren't brillent, they were outnumbered and they get in the way. I will Quote:
I was suppose to be waiting up here when you got back, only your Pheonix lot got in the way." Draco
"Yes, they do that."

That means they do a good Job and there was only Lupin, Tonks, Mcgonagall and Bill. From the Order at least.

the order consists of a bunch of odd mismatched people. dumbledore wouldnt have been able to assemble a very good section of people. firstly because a lot of the old order members are dead. secondly not many people wanted to believe voldemort was back. also many people would be afraid to join the order because they would be in higher danger from voldemort. added to that the order is not working alongside the ministry.
the entire point of the book would be lost if the order was useful and good. the scales have to be tipped in voldemort's favour so that its more fun to read. as a result it will be more fun when harry triumphs over voldemort.
also voldemort doesnt seem as deadly and villain-y as the first few books make him out to be. shouldnt he have some sort of plan?? ok so first he tried to get the prophecy and then tried to kill dumbledore but shouldnt he be more concerned about his immortality especially now that he knows that his diary has been destroyed. shouldnt he go around checking the safety of the hocruxes? he just seems to be starting random hurricanes and breaking bridges. why is he concerned with muggles when he still has a lot of work until he attains domination of the wizard world.

Did anybody yet realize the difference between the Order fighting and the Death Eaters? Blimey, the Order doesn't use the Unforgivables! And why is that? Because it is DARK MAGIC! Of course it is lots and lots and lots more powerfull than "stupefy" and else. But they are the good ones, remember?
So naturelly it is harder for the Order to come by the Death Eaters, they only capture, they don't kill.

I think they are doing a good job!

Flutterflie

I agree--the Order is not an army, it is a series of spies. In the battles that they have pitched, they have defended themselves reasonably well. The problem that they have now is Dumbledore is dead--he is the one that they were supplying information to. And so far, no other wizard seems close to replacing Dumbledore. My guess is that Book 7 is going to be a Texas Chainsaw Massacre of members of the Order. Harry, Ron, and Hermione will probably be on the run and attempting to find the Horcruxes on their own. Voldemort will become more confident as the Order collapses and he gains control of the Ministry of Magic. This will probably open a vulnerability that Harry will be able to seize upon when he finally has to fight Voldemort. My guess is that Harry will only survive due to the debt that Wormtail owes him and Snape will show in the end that he is on the side of good.

I was really surprised that not one DE was captured at the end of HBP. Couldn't even one of them get stunned or petrified or disarmed or anything? The Order seems to really be a disappointment.

I thought they did alright, considering they got surprised attacked by a butt load of Death Eaters (who have to be good wizards; Voldemort has many followers, but only select Death Eaters) and one untransformed crazed werewolf.

Also, like was mentioned above, the Order doesn't use unforgiveables, which are unblockable. Everything else can be defeated by a sufficiently powerful shield charm, but the Death Eaters are throwing around AK's like nothing. They even killed one of their own, for crying out loud.

AK's are unblockable, which means you have to dodge them, and if they're dodging curses, then it's much harder to aim your own curses, which could come flying back in your face if someone hits it with a shield.

And really, I don't think it's fair to compare the DA to anybody. At the end of HBP, Harry see's at least Ron and Ginny both fighting a Death Eater on their own. A fifth and sixth year fighting toe to toe with a Death Eater, the most feared group of wizards on the planet, and coming out on top is not a fair comparison.

Well said QQS, as usual. Unforgivables are dark magic, but in the first war weren't the Auror's allowed to use unforgiveables to bring in DE's though. I believe that the Order will soon have to 'bend' their rules and use them, after all Harry has already used on on Bella.

While were on the topic of unforgiveables, mods there was no where else to put this, they take a great deal of feeling and hatred. Who in the Order has suffered at the hands of DE? Hmmm lets see.....all of them. The greatest power comes from within and thats why they ar 'unforgiveable', they can't be taken back.

The Order is gaining strength, with DD gone, the WW will feel a willingness to join the fight because the greatest wizard died fot the cause.

Remember, too, that even Snape, while counseling Harry as he was running to the gates to disapparate at the end, said "No unforgivables for you Potter!"

Harry will have to come up with a way to "kill" LV without using the Avada Kadavera.

There is no other way to kill somebody except AK. that is why they call it the 'killing curse'. You may think that like throwing them up in the air really high or something like that would kill them but those cn easily be defended.

On the other hand, plants and potions could be used. Devil's Snare would be a good death for Voldemort but that can easily be defeated. Potions could easily kill a person but there are antidotes and how would you get Voldemort to drink a killing potion, give him a red bull before the fight?

What I'm trying to say is that there are no other ways to kill a person other that AK. There are things worse than death but how do you keep Voldemort captive in a prision cell? You just can't.

I don't know, secret keeper. There are certainly other ways of killing people with magic. Sectumsempra comes to mind. AK is the only one that we know of that just snuffs out life. Quick, painless, unmerciful.

Also, did anyone notice in the third book, when Harry thinks Sirius is still evil, he says for the first time in his life he wanted his wand back, not to defend, but to attack, to kill.



This is before Harry knew of the existence of Unforgiveable curses. Before he knew the incantation for Avada Kedavra. What was he going to do to Sirius? Expelliarmus him to death? Stick the wand up his nose? (I thought that was pretty clever, with the troll slipped in there... ) I don't think so. He could have killed Sirius with his bare hands, what difference did magic make?

Harry must have known some spell that could cause Sirius' death.

So while you're correct in saying that there is no other spell that just up an kills a wizard, there are other ways of killing them with magic, either by causing physical injury or sometihng else.

The only other instant magical way too kill is the veil, so maybe harry pushes LV throught the veil? Or he could somehow get a dementor to kiss LV

You know, this thread has given me a right good chuckle...

In a good way, I don't mean that flippantly...

I've had similar thoughts myself, I have to say, but then as a few poeple here have said, the Order can't use unforgivables. Which seems kind of stupid to me. Sorry, but it does.

Would you send police out onto the streets armed with sticks and harsh words to sort out a riot? Would you expect soldiers to fight wars by flinging handfuls of dirt at an enemy wielding AK-47's?

No, of course not. But then again, that doesn't justify the use of lethal force in all cases either.

Sad though some of you will probably think it is, I've been getting into MacGyver lately... (shut up, or I'll ban you...) Aside from being very cute, he managed to bring people down firstly without hurting them....too badly.......and secondly by using resourcefulness rather than force.

So, basically, the upshot of this is that the Order can't use Unforgivables, even though I think that they should be available to them for use in emergencies without fear of punishment. But there are also other ways that they can bring DE's down - and probably ultimately LV too (because there's just no way that a simple AK will kill him...at least I hope not or I really will have to seek out JKR and throw wet sponges at her ) that will involve more subtle methods than spell-flinging. Something that LV won't be expecting.

I think how good the Order ultimately is will boil down to who thinks the quickest, who has the most resolve, things like that. They haven't done too badly at the moment, I guess...but then I don't think they've really been tested yet.

They haven't got Dumbledore anymore...

I agree with Dana Scully. Although the Order cannot use the Unforgivables, that does not eliminate their repetoire of possibilities. Dumbledore created a ring of fire around the enfire in the cave. What if he had merely blasted the fire directly at the zombies? I am sure it would have done severe damage. Something that occurred to me is the accidents that can occur when trying to transfigure objects. What if someone were transfigured to no longer have a head?

However, considering JKR's style, I think the likelihood of Harry setting some sort of a trap for Voldemort is very high. He may try to get Voldemort to use some sort of Unforgivable curse in a situation where it will backfire on the caster (love, and all that).

I agree that it is a disadvantage that the Order doesn't use dark magic, but only on the one hand. on the other hand there is the factor of love which even destroyed LV (or nearly destroyed him). And do you really want the Order to behave like the DE?!
And to be fair: Hermine, Neville, Ron, Luna and Ginny are great fighters due to the DA. I mean they really practiced spells to use in a fight but that they didn't get hurt in the final battle in HBP was not due to their skills but the felix felicis. One of them (I don't recall who it was) told Harry so. Most of the time they weren't fighting but danced not to be hit by DEs' hexes.

i think the order is useless, i don't understand why can't they just use polificus totalos and freeze the death eaters, it just doesn't make anysence, and the death eaters use the unforgivible curses on them, i think that the order should use it on the de

Well, I'm sure they would, if they could... The trouble is that the DE's aren't exactly going to stand there and take it, now are they? Shield charms, Expelliarmus etc...Snape seemed to cast off far more powerful spells than Petrificus Totalus pretty easily, didn't he?

I agree with everyone here. The order members are trying their best and they're holding uo their end. I also agree that the order members are more of spies. We only see the order fighting when Harry sees them so they probably have a lot harder job then everyone realizes.

Once again, they are more honorable so it's harder for them to take down DEs. They wont use unforgiveable curses while the DEs do...so as they're trying to capture them they also have to fight for their lives. If they were so pathetic that they couldn't fight there way out of a paper bag then they'd all be dead and Voldemort would have taken over completely.

Im going to have to agree with a few of the other posts and say that we can't expect the Order to be superior fighters. I mean, the way it seems to me, the Order is just anyone who is willing to stand against Voldemort. Which means that not everyone in the Order is Aurors or trained fighters or anything like that. They are just everday wizards trying their best against trained Death Eaters who have the Unforgivable Curses in their arsenal.

So, to sum this up, making fun of the Orders fighting ability is an insult to every wizard ever involved in the Order. They had the guts to come together and spy on Voldemort and plan against him when most would rather hide and hope he doesnt show up on their doorstep.

But Dumbledore didn't form the order to act as an infantry. Instead it's more of a special forces. We saw in the fifth book what their goals were: to alert the wizarding world of Voldemorts return, to recruit members for the order, and to protect the prophecy. This showed us that their main focus is the thwart Voldemort's attempts at gaining power, not necessarily to fight. Now there is an open war, but like it was said previously, the order members are not mercenaries; they don't practice dark magic. In the first wizarding war, they were severly outnumberd and suffered tremendous loses. This time they got a head start and they're holding their own. You also have to think of the kind of morals Dumbledore had. To resort to the means of Voldemort and his death eaters would almost defeat the purpose/example Dumbledore and the order are setting. Besides, in the end I don't think it will be a battle of military tactics(so to speak) but more of a battle of wits and will and intelligence; areas I think the order are highly skilled. So no, I don't think the order is useless.

there are not many people think the order are doing anything rong and i agree i think you are only say that mainly because they dont kill.


they caught some in ootp. even if dd was there to help he didnt do everything and did well in hbp!!!

good topic thta made me think a bit

the order of the phenix are decent fighters also remember that these are voldemorts best fighters too, not the ragtag group he fights later on. Also both times the order was cought unawarse, no one expected hogwarts t obe broken into in book 6 so the order was unprepared book 5 harry left without any backup with five kids and the order come in outnumbered but they are also unpreparted.

The people that attack the order are legends and many of the order are not the creme of the wizarding comunity (tonks is very good but not as good as belatrix and rockwood who are the best of the evil ALso it is unfair to compare DD and Voldemort with thier respective magical branches because they are so abocve the rest. If someone like Dawlish helped the order they woyuld be better off

Also the order has to be weaker so that harry is mroe inportaint in the books, if everyone was like DD Harry would feel veastly inferior and would be usless in the fights.

ALso in the HBP fight the order was mixed with students who they had to protect. The order is brave but has been outmatched, outclassed (somewhat) and always having to protect underage wizards in fights with evil DE

The order aren't useless they match up well with the death eaters and dumbeldore's part of the order so the order caputred the death eaters at the deprament of mysteries and the battle at hogwarts the order held the death eaters up and they weren't expecting a battle. The death eaters had a advantge in all the battles we have seen so far also i think the order are more like spies who try to find out what voldemort is doing and trying to get and stop him from getting it we also haven't seen or meet all the members

The Order and the Death Eaters were all well matched up against one anotheer, but you gotta admit Harry and crew threw some good spells at the Death Eaters before the Order showed up. Dumbledore chose the people in the Order that he did because he felt that those particular individuals were best suited for the job that the Order was supposed to set out to do. He made sure that his people were not outnumbered in any way whether it be their powers or their numbers. I think that the Order had less importance in Book 6 because the book was all about Harry and Dumbledore searching through Voldy's past and learning more about Horcruxes, the Order was not really needed for this mission.

Marcey

I agree that the Order aren't so skilled. You can't expect them to be. They aren't Aurors after all but they're pretty good and they're really a lot of help at most times especially in OotP when they went after Harry in the Dept. of Mysteries. Their presence helped a lot.

Before you consider how useless the Order is, you must consider all angles.

First, how does Voldemort operate and attack? He operates in secrecy and he rules through fear. Therefore, exposing him and protecting others from being attacked or killed is how you play defense against him. It goes back to the old saying, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

How does the Order fight Voldemort? Well, we have no idea how or even if the Order goes on the offensive. They seem to take a defensive posture against Voldemort. By preventing him from building an army, the Order can prevent him from gaining complete control.

How does the Ministry fight Voldemort? They don't. All they do is posture and pretend. They do the best they can by keeping the secret from muggles, but that is all. The aurors would be useful, but Scrimegour has them so tied up tracking the wrong people that they don't serve much of a purpose.

So, given that the Ministry is worthless, I would say the Order is useful. They do not need to be the most skilled witches and wizards as long as they achieve their aims. Besides, they did manage to help get several Death Eaters into Azkaban.

Hmm I agree with most of you. The Order isn't an army. It's pretty much a group of the few witches and wizards who wants to do more then just refuse to believe Voldy is back. The aurors works for the ministry, and the ministry refuses to believe he's back so all they got is - what? Three aurors? One old and experienced auror from the first war, Mad Eye with a handicap, a pro - Kingsley which in the end is pretty much the only one alive and then Tonks, a new and unexperienced girl when it comes to war. Besides them they got a potion maker, an old professor (but the one Voldemort fears), some teatchers and a family (the weasleys). And of course Sirius and Remus who are fighters, but not educated to it (right?).

And yet I think they did a brilliant work most of the time. In the ministry and on Hogwarts. Most of the Order stands till the end. But obviously because of the flaws in the Order most of them do lose their life in the end. In both wars.

It's heartbreaking...