DD was lifted off the tower...nobody saw him drop down did they? In COS, we know that Fawkes carried harry, ron, professor lockheart and ginny out of the chamber of secrets. For all you know, Fawkes might have just carried DD down safely.

IS DUMBLEDORE DEAD? or is he not?

The only problem (I believe) with working this question out is that we don't know what Malfoy was told to do for Voldemort. Maybe he was ordered to do sometihng completely different other than kill Dumbledore. It would be just like JKR to introduce a deuce ex machina like that. The reason this is so important is that Snape isn't dead. He made an Unbreakable Vow, and we know from Ron that if you break one of them, you're gone. If Draco was told to kill Dumbledore, then Dumbledore is dead. End of thread. If Draco was not told to, then maybe Dumbledore is alive, and maybe he's dead.

LTT

[QUOTE]The only problem (I believe) with working this question out is that we don't know what Malfoy was told to do for Voldemort.

ok i dont know if thats the only problem because snape may not die right there on the spot it could be delayed so if he didnt kill dd and that was what the vow was then he can still die later right?

Perhaps Dumbledore was already dying from the potion that he drank at the cave. Then if Snape knew this and casted the UVow it would put him in the clear as not really killing Dumbldore because the curse was doing it anyway.

i've just read the book...here in italy came out the 6th of january..
i couldnt believe Dumbledore is dead...
it's so sad..

I don't know if shape is good or bad, but I can read. I chapter 2, you can clearly see snape offering his help to Narcissa: "It might be possible... for me to help Draco." Don't you think that a normal people would think twice before offering his help to kill DD (considering Snape is good), he could have easily go back when Narcissa asked him to make the Unbreakable Vow.

And there is still a part missing, we all know that Draco's task had something to do with DD, but we don't know what exactly did the dark lord told him to do and the Vow is in function of this ... Watch, Protect, doing it for him if he seems to fail ... During the task Voldemort gave him, What is it .... I doutd it was as clear as : Draco go kill Dumbledore.



"You think he is mistaken? Or that I have somehow hoowinked him? Fooled the Dark Lord, the greatest wizard, the most accomplished Legilimens the world have ever seen?"

I don't know if he did, but he surely fooled me.

DD is not dead and here are my reasons

I have done a large-scale analytsis of the book and have found that Dumbledore Isn't Dead. His Phoenix dies and is reborn right? Well It was said that harry thought he saw the phoenix flyinto dumbledores FLAME(White smoke spiraled into the air and made strange shapes: Harry thought, for one heart-stopping moment, that he saw a phoenix fly joyfully into the blue, but next second the fire had vanished). Itmeans that dumbledore died like the phoenix and willl be escorted out by it as a phoenix can travel anywhere (We saw this in the chamber of secrets.) Without Dumbledore book 7 cannot function as only harry knows avout the horxruxes and has no means by which to seek them out. Without Albus we can't find a resolution by which the horcruxes are destroyed thus dumbledore has to be alive to keep the story goind. The phoenix is a great creature and as we aw dumbledore burst into flame as a phoenix does.

Please reply w/ your thoughts on the phoenix theory.

Snape has been evil from th beginning as i have found. He had to save harry in book 1 to build trust w./ dumbledore. His meanness to harry is caused by his pact w/ voldemort. He cant kill harry so he is negative towards him. It was his job to seek post at hogwarts and his wanting the Defense agfainst the dark arts job is due to his ties w. the dark lord. He is sent to Hogwarts to seek out the weaknesses of Dumbledore and to provide all the info he can to voldemort. He has to stay at hogwarts when Voldemort returns to keep his trust w/ dumbledore. If he left than dumbledore would probably be "alive" now and voldemort would hate him for it. It would seem that he stayed out of fear or loyalty to dumbledore but that is false. All these years he has been loyal to voldemort and has been collecting info. If he left to rejoin voldemort when he returned then he would have lost all ties w/ dumbledore and thus he could not get more info.

Please reply to this theory as well.

I tihnk it was planned, hagrid tells harry he heard snape and dd argue. Snape said he didn't want to do it anymore. Perhaps he didin't want to go on with the plan, perhaps he didn't want to kill dd

dd sounded angry too when he talked to snape and how often have dd been angry in an argument. The only reason i think he got angry is because it was so important that snape killed him or something close to it. we don't no what snape "doesn't want to do" so it might as well be that.

another thing that makes me think like this is because when dd and harry gets back from the cave he keeps saying that he
"wants severus" ofcourse it might be just because he want's some potion but why the hurry? was dd dying because of what happend in the cave?why was he so urgent to get snape otherwise?

snape's angry expression when he kills dd might be because he hates what he has to do so it's an angry sadness. i think we all have had that feeling.

no I think severus snape is still a good guy and he will have an important part in book 7.
this I belive and have no doubts about, but ofcourse i might be completly wrong;)

[COLOR=green]i dont think that dumbledore is still alive. to me that is to out of j.k's realm she has said in several interviewws that she thinks that it is corny to kill people and then have them come back. the only possible way that i think dd can still be alive is the whole nonverbal spell thing. what if snape said avada kedavra but nonverbaly blocked the spell.
ok next theory
snape had to kill dumbledore because of the unbreakable vow he made with dracos mother. but that is only and i mean only if dracos instructions were to kill dd( which i dont really buy ) i personally think that dracos instructions were to find some way for the other deatheaters to get into the school (which he did ) so the other more experienced de's could finish the job. we have to rememeber here that voldemort doesnt like to rely on people he doesnt think they are dependable, so why would he put all this responsibility one one person. especialy a underaged wizard whos father couldnt even do something (prophesy). i think that voldy wanted draco to fail to pay for his fathers mistakes

I know i love and love to beleve that dd is still alive (trust me, my email is dumbledore_mourner@*******.com!!) but i have come to the recognition that dumbledore, along with sirius, cedric, and everyone else, is truly dead, and no longer walking the earth in human form, and will never again, for there is

I personally think that all evidence points to the death being planned. whether or not Dd is alive or not is something that JR probably wanted us to think about before the next book comes out. I believe and want to believe that Dd is still alive,i mean i think he's an animagus, but that's for a different thread, but at the same time, it would be cheesy and unexpected if Dd turned to be alive. i think JR, if she cares more about the story line, then she would bring Dd back, but if she want to impress her readers, she would keep Dd dead. like i knew long before the 6th book that Dd had to die so when he actually died i actually thought "was is the best she can do?" i think the story would be a lot more interesting if Dd was back and all the questions about his trust in snape would be answered. but then again im in love with Dd so it's just my opinion.
Snape, i loved this character from the first book, and ever since i found out he wasn't suppose to be bad, he remained someone i think will ultimately be the hero in the end. killing Dd was probably the hardest thing he ever did or had to do and i think only killed Dd because he hated voldemort more than he liked Dd. i mean who would kill someone just because the person asked him to? that's the only thing that sort of made me doubt snape's loyalty. i think snape wanted to prove his loyalty a little bit too much

I agree with DumbyRocks, I think that is she does bring him back, I would prefer it in animagus form, because coming back to like or planned death would be repitition from wormtail. The animagus is a new and improved Idea. She already has one facked death, two real deaths (important plot ones - Cedric and Sirius), and a final magical death with explained resurrection would be wonderful. I read the death and was immediately angry. I understood the point to make Harry realize he needs to do it alone in the end, but DD was his mentor, harry, I don't think, is no ready. But, hopefully we meet some loopholes and the pause in the air and slowly floating to the ground will hold a great deal of significance.

I cried through thouse last chapters.
It was just soooooooooooooooooooooo sad.

Snape is for sure inocent. I do not know what JK will decide what to do next, however here are some facts:

[1]
Dumbeldore argued with Snape on something, this could not have been simple because he was not keeping a hold on his house, if that was the problem, they would not have gone outside the school to discuss it.

[2]
Aveda Kadavra kills you on the spot .. dumbeldor jumped. For me Snape said Aveda Kadavra but meant something else, and so the effect of the jump. Why say it ... please check point 3

[3]
Why freeze Harry? Why not let him run inside hogwarts, certainly Dumbeldore could have freezed malfoy easilly if he wanted Dumbeldore wanted a witness, and who better then Harry, He would definitly not close his mouth

[4]
Why did Snape escape? Harry was under the cloak. I guess if he could not see Harry, then he must have felt that no one has seen him do it, only his ecomplesis. So why not stay there, with dear malfoy and say that the other death eaters did it

[5]
Snape did not wait for a moment to kill Dumbeldore. Fear someone killing Dumbeldore before him, or fearing someone would REALLY kill Dumbeldore.

I may have forgot something here (have a better post on another forum). However I can give you reasons why Snape does not like this plan at all

[1]
Snape is now hated by the Order and by the Minister. He will be searched by everyone. Would you enjoy that?

[2]
Voldemort anger. Snape does not know how voldemort will take it. Voldemort wants a spy in hogwarts, If Hogwarts remains open Snape is dead, otherwise Snape is ok. Magologan seemed quite to keen on closing Hogwarts!

And why would Dumbeldore want such a thing to happen?

[1]
The Ministry is a hell on earth, they are asking to many questions, they are going to make Voldemort know that Dumbeldore is working on something about his souls which would make Voldemort take some precotions, something which he seems he still did not do ... mmmm, but isn't Snape the eveil guy, didn't he already broken one soul ... mah ... maybe he tought the dark lord was not intrested.

[2]
IFTS, which means 'Information From The Source'. Voldemort maybe will still continue to trust Snape in the same way, however the other Death Eaters know what he did, they will definitly treat him with more resepect, they will trust him more, tell him more ...

[3]
Lead the way. Snape will not be accpeted in the Order very easilly, unless Dumbeldore displays himself again. So he will leave some clues, maybe even baby feed Harry sometimes on where to go next. How else can Dumbeldore help him. In my opinion Snape will always apear in those places where there is a soul .. naturally stupid Harry will think that Snape is trying to steal them for the dark lord, not that he is waiting for him to take it ... asking himself why does dumbeldore really need this boy!!

As I said I do not know if I forgot something .. however answer those questions and if you do then I could say that Snape is not a hero, but a common betrayer

regards,
kcorp

DUMBLEDORE IS DEAD IT IS THAT SIMPLE J.K ISNT THAT CORNY TO BRING HIM BACK. THE ONLY WAY THAT HE CAN COME BACKIS MABEY ANIMAGUS FORM. NEVER A PERSON AGAIN

I cried when Dumbledore died. Who's going to protect Harry now from Voldemort. Dumbledore was the only thing that stood betweed Harry and Voldemort. It just made the book feel even more morbid than it already was.

Though I have lots to say on this subject, I'll wait until I've read through the most recent thread, as it is I've only ready the last couple of pages. I want to point out something early on in the chapter "Spinner's End" that Snape says regarding the plan (killing Dumbledore).

I have read many of the posts hear so forgive me if I'm repeating something 50 million others have said.

I believe Snape killed Dd because he was told to, thats what they were arguing about. When Harry was having his lesson with DD and he tells him about what he heard Snape telling Malfoy about the Unbreakable Vow, DD says he understands the situation much better than Harry. If he didn't tell Snape to do whatever it takes to prove that he was trstworthy to the other death eaters, than he would of been surprised to hear about this and spoke to Snape about it right away. Also, (correct me if I'm wrong) but the avada kedavra curse can only be used if you really want to kill someone, you don't need to hate them. Snape would of wanted to kill DD because he knew it was the right thing to do, not because he hated him. Snape told Bellatrix that he could never fool VM because he always knows when someone is lying, but people seem to underestimate Snape way to much, he is extremely powerful. He was a better Potion maker than Slughorn when he was only a teenager and he's the only wizard thats blocked Harry's spells (and he did it so easily), none of the other Death Eaters ever got close when they fought in OOTP. There is just to much evidence to prove that Snape is still good and very little evidence against him.

Also, to whoever says DD is still alive, keep in mind that after Snape performed the curse, the curse on Harry was lifted which can only mean that DD was really killed.

he guys i just found something
In hbp, on i believe 195 there is trewalney just talking, well if you look at it carefully you can make it into the events that happen at the tower...
what do you think?

Can't find it!
Page 193 is still the Gaunt chapter in my edition..
Found it! Ok, page 185..I'm reporting the quote from Trelwaney:

There is no doubt in my mind that snape did not betray DD. One thing DD has always done for Harry is drop incredibly subtle almost subliminal hints in all of the books that will help in his journey somehow. I dont think its a coincidence that DD's hand is withering away and that he renames Buckbeak Witherwings...furthermore, he renames him on the same night (or around the time) he "hurts his hand." I think that DD is for sure an animagus and that he is preparing for his death as fawkes does. , by withering away, and this is his way of dropping that hint

Seeing as how we've reached another 20++ pages, I'm archiving this. Ya'll will have a brand-spankin' new one up faster than you can say 'Quidditch'