Well, the other thread had gotten a bit long for such an in depth conversation, so I've made you guys a brand new one. I know, I know, I'm great.

The first thread is here and the second thread is here.

The last post there was made by KShacklebolt:

Forgive me if anybody has mentioned this, but i wanted to suggest the possibility that when Dd was pleading to snape, he was pleading for Snape not to kill him, he wanted Malfoy to do it so that Voldemort wouldn't have any reason to be mad, Voldemort wanted malfoy to do it!

Carry on!

The unforgiveable curse can only be done if the person doing the spell REALLY hates the person he is cursing. We found that out when Harry tried to curse someone with it - i think it was Voldemort. Therefore Snape mustve truly hated DD to kill him surely?
Also as DD gave his life to Harry in the same way as his parents doesnt this mean that through this love Harry has protection from DD now as well as his mother? If so is it a much stronger protection as DD is a more powerful wizard I guess not as I think that the protection is thruogh love rather than magic. But its an interesting idea

Elderbreath, you have a very interesting theory about an additional protection, but as snape wasnt trying to kill Harry (he didnt know he was there) i dont think its going to work. He didnt sacrifice himself for harry in the same way his mother did, it wasnt so much a trade in life as snape wasnt threating harrys life.

I think we have this tendecy (as i have said previously) to think of dd as a kind of god, because hes always had the answers so far in the book and is the only one lv is afraid of etc.

But dd admitted himself that he makes mistakes - and because hes usually right his mistakes are bigger, trusting snape is perhaps just the biggest mistake he ever made. I think that an underlying message in JK's writting is that of humanity and what she is showing us here is a universal truth - everyone makes mistakes and hatred can be just as strong as love...

He could have done, but think for a minute, dumbledore was the only person LV was afraid of, and there are methods of keeping a person safe. He could have saved malfoy by other means, and kept himself alive to protect harry and the other students from attacks and to aid the ministry....
....and besides LV still gets a death eater out of malfoy because he wont stop using him just because one mission is done! He'll believe Malfoy is a bloodied member of his circle and so will continue to send him on outings, after all Malfoy is a perfect tool, who will think a little boy much of a risk?

Dumbledore would have known he'd have been more use protecting malfoy alive because to stop voldermort using malfoy he would have had to have hidden him.

Dumbledore died because snape betrayed him, its a hard lesson but one i think JK chose to illustrate because her books are about more than just magic...

No, the person performing an unforgivable curse does not have to REALLY HATE the person the curse is being done to. In the fifth Harry Potter book Harry attempts to use an unforgivable curse on Bellatrix. Bellatrix tells Harry that in order to use the curses properly one must really mean to use the curse. In Bellatrix's exact words, "You need to mean them, Potter! You need to really want to cause pain--". She mentioned the causing pain part because Harry was attempting to use Cruciatus Curse, which causes pain. So in order for one to sucessfully perform the Killing Curse one would only have to really mean to perform it. Snape could have been performing the curse on Dumbledore's orders, in which case Snape would really mean to perform the curse. You need to really mean the curse, not really hate the person you are cursing.

[/QUOTE]Dumbledore died because snape betrayed him, its a hard lesson but one i think JK chose to illustrate because her books are about more than just magic... [QUOTE]

Yes i agree that there is more then just magic, otherwise we would not be having these discussions but as you feel that DD died because of being betrayed by snape... i, and quite a few others, believe that the evidence is pointing us in the direction that Snape was following DD's orders...... i really dont feel like re-posting all the reasons so if you're interested in seeing them, go to this thread thats in the archives........ i feel that it would be the biggest surprise the books had to offer if Snape did turn out to be evil.... Or at least betraying DD.... i really like what a guy said in the magizine Entertainment Weekly..." Dumbledore believes in Snape, and that should be good enough for us"

simply and perfectly stated... as powerful of an Occlumency and Lig. that Snape may be, you cannot say he is a more powerful wizard in those fields as DD..... even with snape lieing perfectly, DD would still be able to read him and figure out he was lieing.... Snape will turn out to be a hero who will end up dying a hero's death.....

im sure i may have already commented on this topic but here it goes anyways:

Ok, yes we have established that Someone must really Mean to use and unforgivable curse, and so far it sounds as though you alll believe that Snape is evil and a regular traitor, but as for me I think the whole thing is planned!
Dumbledore went flying, he didnt just drop dead as usual victims of the AK spell so i believe Dd and Snape planned his "death". While shouting the AK spell at Dd (not actually meaning it), Snape performed a nonverbal spell to send him flying and look as though he did die. In the book, it didnt say that anyone checked Dd for a pulse and no one even took him to the hospital wing leading you to wonder,,,,why werent these steps taking? Maybe this seems a bit optimistic to most but its interesting and i know im not the only one who feels this ay on the subject.
And amadeus99, although he didnt use the cruciatus curse, Snape still needed to mean to kill him not just mean to preform the spell. And if the whole thing is staged as i suspect, there is another reason for the look of hatred on Snape's face , perhaps he hated having to make Dd look like a weakling or ruining his (Snape's) reputation farther because Dd was the one person who believed and forgave him for the crimes and mistakes he had made.
And as for the funeral i believe the pheonix which went flying was Dd...... thank you please read my comment and let me know what you think.

Of course i understand that you believe there is something more to snape but im just questioning whether its something people want to believe because they are so desperate to believe that dumbledores death wasnt in vain, wasnt unplanned, wasnt part of some grand master scheme that will eventually save harry...

....wasn't human. I personally believe that people just cant quite believe that dd was human after all and his death could just mean nothing just a horrible betrayal at the hands of someone he trusted...

...its like people expect a magical solution because the world the characters live in can in theory do anything they want dd's death to be worth something when im proposing that perhaps it wasnt?

Of course this is a natural state of grief.. (which i find interesting considering dd (dare i say it oh! blasphemy!) isn't really real) denial which is what im questioning really are we sure Snapes good because theres overwhelming evidence or are we stringing things together in an effort to believe that dd was more than human - are we in denial...

(woah that was deep wasnt it... ive got to stop thinking or ill turn into a nerd (or even more of one!))

i also think Dd may be finished gone forever because of how many times he had said he too makes mistakes. But think about how many times he said that, quite a lot, but he never gave up on Snape which leads me to believe they were up to something, everytime Harry would bring up his theory about Malfoy and Snape, it were as if he(Dd) knew what was going on and was keeping it a secret i am not in denial and i see your point of view and at first i believed Dd to be dead also and still even if my theory of him not being dead turns out true, there are still many unanswered questions.

J.K has never been so straighforward before why start now? Yes there may be substanial evidence against Snape being good, but there is also evidence against him beig evil and this is what makes J.K so brilliant. She hooks her readers leaving unanswered questions on purpose.

But i will stick to my guns, Snape is complex in my opinion look at what he has gone through years of schooling being ridiculed and his home life his father being abusive there is so much more to Snape than what he appears to be. Look he could have killed Flitwick and could have told the death eaters to stay behind and kill more of the order off or even bring harm to the students but he did not he lad them off. He could have made Malfoy kill Dd and he would become a murderer and ensure that Dd was dead but i think Snape wanted to "kill" dumbledore to ensure that Dd wasnt actually dead because he didnt really even give malfoy a chance to kill him off once he got out there.

and there were two brooms on thw tower one for Dd and one for...Harry and Snape knew Harry had an invisibility cloak and isnt quite stupid no one which makes me think Snape knew Harry went with Dd well im getting lenghty.

but thank you for your opinions they really are interesting and make me think.

Yes i see your point, and i hadnt considered the brooms... i would honestly love to see snape turn out to be good, but im ever the sceptical and just cant belive that JKR would use magic to "fix" the subject of betryal.. or dd's death.

I love snape, because he is such an unfathomable character, and i do wish he'd turn round and surprise me... but i cant help thinking his hatred of harry goes far beyond boyhood rivalry or jealousy... if only we knew why dd trusted him

*hits head on computer desk in fury*

bring on the 7th book!
(been great talking to you btw, hope to see you around on the boards LadyP xxx)

yea i understand the skeptical point of view i myself like to look at the good things and i would understand if it turned out in book 7 exactly as it seems and that im reading into it too much. and if it does turn out totally switch around the way i think then i definately think J.K is showing us that people are out there who are regular benedict arnolds.

But maybe if it does end up they way i see it (me and my optimistical self) then maybe she is trying to tell us that there are peopel in which we can trust and that people can change there ways and are sorry for their mistakes.

yes it has been great talking to you you have great points

Cant wait for book 7 either

i think that Snape did but didn't betray DD. Snape must have known about Draco's plan to attack the school. i know in the book that it says Draco was thought ocluemency by Bellatrix, but do we really think that if Harry couldn't stop Snape that Draco could. Especially sense we know that was mentally weak because he was crying and telling Moaning Myrtle everything in the bathroom.

We also know that Draco could feel Snape’s presenes in his mind because when they were along in that room Draco told Snape to stop reading his mind. Then Snape says i see that Bellatrix has been teaching you ocluemency. So Snape must have got into Draco's mind.

Then later on in the book it is said that Snape and DD get into an arguement. i'm let to believe that they were argueing about why Snape wouldn't tell DD about Draco's plan. I also think in that same arguement Snape told DD that he took an Unbreakable Vow with Narsicca. That is what probably made DD so angry with Snape. It is also possible later on in that conversation DD tells Snape that Snape should not break his Vow with Narsicca even if he was to kill DD himself. DD would have said that Snape was to important to the Order and that Harry could learn more about the Dark Lord and what his weaknesses are from Snape than he could form DD. So Snape would have then gotten angry and would have tried to get DD to change his mind, but of course DD knew it was the only that he could insure that Harry got proper training before he takes on the Dark Lord. What if DD made Snape take and Unbreakable Vow with him that if he (DD) were to die that Snape would do everything that he could without blowing his cover to help Harry defeat the Dark Lord? So when Harry and Snape were fighting Snape gave Harry so good advice about how to attack a strong Dark wizard ( Voldemort).

Now lets go back to when the Death Eaters attacked the school. We know that Snape was in his room in the doungeons. Was this Snape's atempt to try and avoid his Vow with Narsicca, because if he didn't know when there would be an attack Snape thought he could get out of the Vow. Then we know that professor Flitwick came down to the dugeons and told Snape what was going o Then Snape did not have a choice he had to go and fullfil both his Vows.So he Knocked out Flitwick because he knew that Hermione and Luna were outside his door. This shows that Snape really didn't want to do what he was about to do. In sparing Hermione and Luna i think that he was trying to show that he didn't not want to do what he was about to do ( kill DD). Lets face it if he had really turned he would have killed Flitwick, Luna, and Hermione.

So when he reached were DD and the Death Eaters were DD saw that Snape didn't want to kill him (DD) so he pleaded with Snape to complete both Vows. DD knew that if one of the other Death Eaters killed him before Snape did then both he (DD) and Snape would have died, because Snape would have broken his Vow with DD and Narsicca. So DD reminded Snape much in the same way he did with aunt Petunia when he said "remeber my last". So he said "Severus...Plaese." to remind Snape of what was at stake,because in that moment everything was at stake both thier futures, Harry's future, and the entire wizarding worlds future. So Snape did what he had to insure that must of those futures remained bright. Also DD knew that after Snape had killed him he would be the second most wanted wizard. So he couldn't stay at Spinners End and he would be spending more time around Voldemort. More time to plot against him, more time to find his weakness,and more time to find out what his Horcruxes are and where they are hidden.

So i tink that Snape is still a good guy and will have a huge impact in the next book. i also beleive that DD is dead as i have tried to explain.

Hi! I have been reading the dialogue between H3rmion3 and Lady Pandora and wanted to add a few things.

First, I agree Lady Pandora. Everyone who has read the book has been going through a grieving process and denial is a part of that process. But I don't necessarily believe that all of the talk about Snape really being good is about rationalization.

I also agree that JK Rowling has been telling us all about humanity--all of it. The good and the bad. And the mistakes.

And that is the point. People make mistakes. And they can change (like H3rmion3 said in her post). If Snape turns out to really be working for Voldemort, what does that tell the reader? That people cannot change. That even with love and trust, people will not change. I don't think that is what JK Rowling wants us to believe.

I think that is why mistakes are brought up in the book--to let us know that Snape has also made mistakes....and learned from them. That is the point, isn't it? People do make mistakes, but if you learn from them, they can be helpful.

One more thing. If Snape really is evil, then it also tells the reader that no one can be trusted. I don't think that is what these books are about. I think that trust is intricately tied to love. And i don't believe that hatred is just as strong as love. That is why she keeps saying that the love Harry's mother had for him is the power that Voldermort does not have.

I'm not sure whether Dumbledore is alive or dead, but I do think that Snape did not betray Dumbledore.

I agree 100 percent with you and i believe there is a lesson to learn here, these books may be fiction but they deal with everyday life, i do not dismiss the idea that Dd may be dead and im not in denial about the whole thing it is just what i think not what I want although it would be rather nice.

you guys/ gals are great and have wonderful ideas thank you

I think the argue Snape and Dumbledore were having was about Snape having to killing Dumbledore and Snape not wanting to do it but Dumbledore ordering him not to break the vow he had with Narcissa. I hope that makes sense

Oh and i also think Dumbledore is dead.

oops, sorry for double posting. my bad

I wasn't sure where this was going to fit in so I guess I'll just put it here.

Well, first of all, I think DD death was fabricated. It's curious how the one time DD is too weak to protect Hogwarts properly is the time that the DE come and attack it? Let's just say that DD knew that the locket in the cave was fake. (Couldn't it be possible since DD knows a lot of things we don't?) He might have brought Harry there so he could (1) Let Harry get the note and the locket, (2) To weaken himself so that it would have been easier (not to mention more believable) for Snape to kill DD and (3) To have a reason to leave Hogwarts open for attack, no matter how much of the Order was patrolling it.

Now that Snape has killed DD, he has fulfilled his Unbreakable Vow, assuming the death of DD was the plan. Also, Bellatrix and other unsure DE's may not only lower their guard since DD is the most anti LV there is, but begin to trust Snape, the way LV does.

Hell, we aren't even sure if DD is even dead. There is the question of his painting (BTW, are there other paintings of DD aside from Hogwarts?). If he isn't dead, why would he have one in the Headmaster's office?

What do you guys think?

I think we have enough evidence confirming DD's death. That portrait, first of all, and also the fact that when DD fell Harry was no longer immobile from the curse, so doesn't that mean that whoever cast it was gone for good?

I already said this somewhere but in my opinion Snape didn't betray DD. And I know it says all over the books that to use an Unforgivable Curse one must really mean to do it, but doesn't the power and experience someone has also affect it? If it was just out of mere hatred or meaning, then Harry and no other student should have any problems cursing someone with it. I'm sure we've all seen how emotional Harry can get, and it still hasn't helped much. Like in GoF when Peter kills Cedric, he has no problem at all casting the spell and killing him instantly. Okay, well this must mean that since he didn't even know Cedric he couldn't possibly have any strong feelings toward him, and the only meaning he got out of it was to fulfill Voldemort's orders. So in this case Snape, who's a very powerful wizard already and has had tons of experience with dark spells, if he was ordered by DD to kill him, which I think is what happened, has enough "meaning" to kill him. I don't think it necessarily means hatred.

And I totally agree with Crookshanx about the themes of this story concerning love and trust. They have a very big connection. Well that's all I have to say for now.

Think about this, although there was a portrait in the headmistress's office, it doesnt mean he is dead. Come on when the head of houses were in tho office along with hagrid and harry Dd portrait was sleeping, it didnt move. how do we even know that it authentic? Dd had time to sluip in there of use a spell perhaps a nonverbal whilst lying oon the ground """""dead""""". i dont believe he is dead i am also not in denial I just dont think this mystery would be so easy seeing as it aroused most of the questions at the end of this boo Yes it is only an idea i have but i believe this is the case 100%

but just wanted to put my point of view up. I know i have already posted in this topic numerous times but ty all

My last opinion lately (they change often, Rowling fooled me ) is that DD was really dead, but maybe he'll reborn from the ashes... I have no idea. All I know for 90% sure is that DD's death was planned.

if dumbledore wasn't really dead then snape would've died because he would not of completed his unbreakable vow.

Howdy! Please read the rules, one liners aren't allowed on Veritaserum. We like to get your full opinion. Please elaborate a bit in the future. Thanks, Mason.

Thank you! That is very much what I think. However, even though Dumbledore's dead, that doesn't mean he can't still comminicate with Harry. What about the portrait in his office? The other past headmasters comminicated with Harry and Dumbledore whenthey had meetings in there throughout the series? Maybe the memory of a person is transfered into the portrait if a portrait was in existance before the death. Ideas?

~Vin

Yes, that is true, but if there were, say, 100 Dumbkledore painting somewhere in the world, would that mean that his memory would go into only on, or divided into all of them. The paintings, like with alot of the Harry Potter trivia, is something that, no matter how much it is contemplated, wont come to any conclusion. I think that paintings would give characters who had once depended on them, a false sense of reality, believing that they have not really died, but have lived on. I suppose, when it comes to the Harry Potter magic, the lines between reality and fantasy no longer exist.

How very true. So maybe Dumbledore could give advice to Harry, but at the same time, it's not Dumbledore so he doesn't have the same information. So I guess the portrait might not be helpful to Harry at all. In fact, Kreacher could be more useful than the portrait! Who knows!

~Vin

seeing that DD was not my favorite character i dont think im in denial..... or shock..... im simply stating the fact that there is too much evidence pointing to the fact that snape is not this evil backstabbing character alot of you are playing him out to be..... im sorry but if DD truely believed him its good enough for me... even tho snape did know Occlumacy and Leg. i do think DD is a better Occlumist and Leg. therefore realizing something is foul in snape, b/c snape's gaurd cannot be up all the time seeing that DD sees him everyday......

when has anything obvious ever turned out accurate?? its always the underneath evidence that is hidden in the words..... i dont think the quote of DD about his mistakes in the 5th book would really hold up in this book.....because there is too much evidence in the 6th book that proves otherwise......

last thing:
DD would never had pleaded or begged for his life..... ComPletely uncharacteristic of DD...... now him pleading to snape to kill him to protect himself (snape) and Draco by dieing sounds more like DD..DD would always rather sacrafice himself for the innocent, a true calling of a hero

Maybe the paintings are similar to the "Echos" that came out of Voldemort's wand in the 4th book. Perhaps the spirit of the paintings are only echo's of the person they represent. They could still give advise, comment on things (as Phineas does so openly), but wouldn't be truely alive. I know that many, if not everyone will disagree with me by saying that perhaps JKR should not have made the portraits talk. Like I said before, it gives the characters a false sense of reality, and the reason (I think) that Dumbledore was killed, was to allow Harry to be the ultimate Hero. This way, Dumbledore will not truely be dead, therefore contradicting JKR's purpose for killing him.....

Just a thought.......

Dumbledore's huge mistake could be eithe trusting Snape or going to the cave to drink the potion and to weaken himself. You never know what mistakes Rowling meant. And this one was a really HUGE mistake.

I was wondering about the possibility that snape had to kill Dumbledore down to dumbledors order. after the unfortunately not unexpected shock on my part (id sort of realised JK had been increasingly humanising Dumbledore throughout book six and reducing the omnipotent image of him) i went back and read through the book.
Whilst i dont quite believe that Dumbledore is somehow not dead (and to be quite honest id be disappointed if he miraculously turned out to be alive, unless it was handled exceptionally well i think it would ruin the credibility of the books) i do think there is a case to be made about Snape not quite turning evil as he so seems to. The quote i am most focusing on is when hagrid tells harry what he has overheard.

-"I was comin' outta the forest the other evenin' an' I overheard 'em talking -- well, arguin'. ... I jus' heard Snape sayin' Dumbledore took too much fer granted an' maybe he -- Snape -- didn' wan' ter do it anymore ... Dumbledore told him flat out he'd agreed ter do it an' that was all there was to it."-

Now if Snape was saying that he didnt want to be a double agent anymore then surely Dumbledores abject trust in him would be shaken? I personally think there was could have been some kind of agreement between Snape and Dumbledore that meant that Dumbledore would have to die at his hands? perhaps to unearth some deep rooted magic that Voldemort does not respect and therefore does not consider? after all in the memory we are shown in the pensieve shows Dumbledore saying something along the lines of "you have pushed the boundries of some magic but not others"?

sorry should have read the second page where this is being discussed....

Just re-reading through the important parts of HBP, I noticed that when Dumbledore was trying to get into the cave, he had to use blood to get passed. This is all well and good, but then he says "But your blood is worth more than mine." Perhaps I am looking at nothing, or did he expect to die? He is a very valuable person, and using Harry's blood would hardly have made a difference, but perhaps that fatherly instict is coming out in him. I am probably looking at nothing.......

Just out of curiosity, would anyone know if Dumbledore had children, got married, or even had a girlfriend. Because we have always knon him as this solitary person who believes totally in love, I wonder if he had ever experienced it? But I doubt that anyone whould know....

I thought like you, that he knew he was getting weaker and weaker, and Harry's blood and Harry doing it all by himself (for example drinking potion) was useless, because DD knew he'd die and that Harry can manage to fight Voldemort by himself and with help of others.

Ok I might have missed it , but has anyone else brought up the fact that DD pointed out to harry early in the book that the AK curse leaves no marks and does nothing to the victim except too KILL them instantly other than as DD put it the example sitting before him ( Harrys scar) .. Yet when Snape casts the spell on DD he goes flying from the ramparts ? does this seem odd or is it just bad editing ? Also you dont have to really HATE the person you have to really WANT to cast the curse.
Also the ROW or argument DD and snape had that hagrid overheard could it be Snape didnt want to cast the AK curse for fear he may actually kill DD ?
Now the portrait does seem to go agenst this argument and the fact that the Author has had a very poor record in continuity , Im hoping that for once her continuity is correct, DD is in feigning dead so that all the deatheaters come out and all can be captured and all live happly ever after.
To make my point clearer shouldnt DD just have DIED and been left on top of the tower in front of all the deatheaters and harry ect,,, if the curse worked properly ( note death to cedric its cast hes dead,, voldomorts family ,, cast and there dead. ect ect,, ) now DD goes off the tower and has plenty of time to change things apperance , make a new body from transformation ect,

This is just an idea i had and i wasn't sure where it would fit, so here goes. I just noticed how in the Ministry of Magic leaflet Harry was reading at the beginning of book six it said not to enter a building with the dark mark above it. When Harry and Dumbledore come back from the cave they see the dark mark and immediatly go to it. I know Harry was with Dumbledore, and I would've felt safe going with him as well. It's just interesting to note that had Harry and Dumbledore obeyed the leaflet and called the aurors things would have turned out different.

I am in no way, however, trying to suggest that I don't like Dumbledore and that I do not trust his judgement. I just found that interesting.

Here is my two cents on this topic:

I honestly think (even though it pains me to do so) that Dumbledore is in fact dead. I also belive that Snape is still a good guy and Dumbledore wanted Snape to kill him. I have several teories why:

1. That potion Dumbledore drank was some kind of potion that causes unbearable pain until you die. So maybe Snape, being an accomplished Legillimens, read Dumbledore's mind pleading him o kill him. I mean, lets say you injure an animal that cannot be healed, what's the best thing to do? Put it out of his misery. Maybe that is the case here as well. This is the only logical theory for me.

2. Now this one is a bit weird, but bear with me. Snape took an Unbreakable Vow, or whatever, saying that he wil protect Malfoy. Now, letting Malfoy become a murderer isn't exactly protecting him, is it? So if this is true, Snape would have died as well for breaking the vow. Dumbledore obvioulsy realizes this and cannot let Snape die because Dumbledore needs him alive.

Now, I also enjoyed reading someone else's theory about Snape using a nonverbal spell on Dumbledore while simply saying AK. I found this really interesting, especially when they brought up the point about Dumbledore not dropping dead like eveybody else, he was blasted away. This really does open the door to more possible theories.

Hi I am new to all of this and I know I am not supposed to post that here (my you guys are strick!) I am not sure if I am even doing this right (man am I going to get in trouble for this) No I have not yet had time to go to the new members page and I really have not read through all of the other threads yet. (another strike against me), but I must compliment on this now before I forget. (It may have already been stated and so I will miss you all when I get kicked off of this form) BUT, the reason dd had to die is so that Harry can continue the mission on his own. He needs to be able to prove that he is the one and only person that can finish LV. To kind of prove himself to everyone the in WWorld and even to himself. (you all know of all the bad publ. he was getting) I thought that would have been a given, but I must be mistaken.

On a dutch harry potter forum, someone came up with a verry interesting theory. I think somebody said it here allready, but i didn't read all posts, i'm sorry *blush*

i'll try to translate it to english.

It now seems that snap is dumbledores killer, but is he really?

Let's not forget that DD drank a whole bunch of potion (brewed by voldemort). It's a potion that makes dd experience something horrible.
DD even said that he expects that you won't die instantly by drinking it. By saying this, he actually says that he thinks that he will die, if not instantly. When they are back in hogsmead, he says:
"That potion .....was not a health drink

So i think DD was bound to die (is that a correct sentence???) when he drunk the potien. When he realized that, he understood that this was the right time for snape to *i really can't think of good words here....* not to break his unbreakable vow to narcissa. that's way he said to harry: get snape and nobody else.

By letting snape take his life, he accomplished 3 things:

-voldemort would trust snape above all others, and draco didn't have to kill anyone. Snape could fullfill his vow, without really killing anyone, because dd was allready dying.

fawks wasn't there either, so dd must have told him not to come. during other fights ( fight with the basilisk, fight with voldemort in OotP) fawks WAS there to protect harry/dd.

SORRY for my HORRIBLE english, but i wanted to translate it as quick as possible. again, this is NOT my theory

There's a few random comments in this thread that I want to follow up on. As for Snape not being able to AK Dumbledore unless he truly hated him, I don't believe it for a second. My impression of the unforgivable curses is that once you know how to do them, you can do them to anybody. Moody surely didn't hate the spider he killed in GoF.

Second, as to all the speculation about why Dumbledore was thrown from the tower, I think it was merely a clever way to make Dumbledore's body inaccessible, thus allowing Harry to pursue Snape. Had Dumbledore fallen where he stood, Harry would have certainly ran over to the body and wept, eliminating the chase scene, in which important information was revealed (I would also like to point out that the spider Moody killed in GoF flew of his desk and skidded towards Ron).

Third, there is a lot of talk about JKR commenting on all of our flaws by showing that even the best of us (Dumbledore) is human and capable of making mistakes. While I do believe this to be a central theme to the story, I do not think that DD has made any mistakes. JKR does highlight the possibility in book 6, though I think it was merely to make the possibility of him being wrong about Snape believable before she twists it back. DD was always very modest and open to the possibility that he had erred, but when was it ever been true? I suspect that in Book 7 we will see that Dumbledore was correct, Snape was trustworthy, and his death was all part of the masterplan.

I think Snape made the vow because he couldn't afford to have any of the DE question his loyalty to LV. I am sure that he and DD discussed it as they made their plans. I agree that DD knew he was dying and asked Harry to get DD so he could fulfill his vow. YES, I think DD is really dead. I kept waiting for it to be a smoke screen, but looking back - all of the elements of a real death are there - especially the fact that the spell holding Harry was broken. I don't think DD was pleading for his life - I agree that there was a silent message between Snape and DD. Besides when Harry and DD were in the cave, DD made it very clear that it was not he who had to go on - it was Harry. Just like in book 1, Hermione and Ron sacrificed themselves so that Harry could go on.

I also think that Snape is GOOD! He is not stupid either. He has proven that he can walk in to a situation look around quickly and can sum up what is going on. He saw the two brooms, he knew about Draco's orders, he saw the other DE, he also knew that DD primary objective was to teach Harry as much about LV as possible so that he - single handedly could defeat him.

Think about when Snape was escaping with harry hot on his trail... why wouldn't Snape have used a spell to bring Harry to LV, he didn't even hurt him. Hmmm fishy if he wasn't really good. Also there was absolutely no reason for DD not to trust Snape. There is obviously something we still don't know.

I think Snape is a Death Eater, and he did mean to kill DD. My reasons are

1. Lord Voldemort is a very skilled occulems or legillmens, he can tell if sanpe was lying, DD is probobly not as powerful as him at occulems
2. To kill someone you have to want them dead, as explained in book 5.
3. Every HP book has its twist, this is book 6's.
4. In many parts of the book,JKR points out the fact that DD makes mistakes, and his biggest mistake was trusting Snape.
5. Also, there were about 4 other death eaters there when malfoy was supposed to kill him, why would snape jump forward at the chance to do it?

I think everyone just doesnt want to believe that dumbledore is dead and died without cause. In an interview she even said that we saw what happend and we should decide what we think.
Not everything is so complicated, sometimes you just have to go with whats right infornt of you, because thats what happened. Lots of people said snape may have non-verbally said another spell to overthrow the Avada Kedavra, But in book four moody said theres no counter curse. Maybe DD just went balsing into the air because is was so powerful.

Hey im back!

everybody is talking about teh Unbreakeble Vow.. but Snape didn't make the UV: 'i will kill Dumbledore'.. no he did: I will help Malfoy..

just wanted to point it out..

RJ

wait a second. can't dumbledore use magic without his wand? i mean, can't every single wizard use magic without a wand? magical muggle kids use magic all the time without wands before they go to school! just like harry made the glass vanish at the zoo. so, couldn't dumbledore fight malfoy without a wand and defend himself from all those death eaters and what not? something really fishy went on during that scene. dumbledore was supposed to be going to see snape in the first place right? (when they got back from the cave he asked to see snape) what if he actually got that chance to go see snape? i don't think it was for dumbledores healing, (harry wanted to take him to madam ponfrey), dumbledore wanted to tell something important to snape that night. what was it? did it have something to do with the horcrux? did dumbledore know it was a fake and didn't tell harry yet? because there was too much confusion and dumbledore might not have had the chance. maybe snape knows who R.A.B is.

I'm not sure if this is fully related, but I wanted to put the question out there anyway. When Snape finally does curse Dumbledore, the spell DD had caste over Harry disappears. It is only mentioned very briefly that the spell ceases once DD has disappeared over the wall of the castle.

I guess my question is, do all spells wear off once a person dies? Was Dumbledore truly dead, or did he deliberately launch himself over the wall and simultaneously caste a spell to release Harry? Or, if he was dead, what other curses may be lifted once the caster is dead? Avada Kedavra, perhaps?

It's a long stretch, but I guess so little is known about the nature of the magic used. This could be used as evidence that DD is still alive, or perhaps it is a separate thread altogether. Guess you can decide, but I'd like to know what you think.

I think that DD's death, although terribly sad, has great meaning. I also do disagree with the people saying that some of DD magic/love protection will be like when harrys mother protected him. DD imolblized harry to keep him from interfering, not to keep him from dying. I also think thast DD knew his Death was near and i think he was expecting snape to be the one to do it even though he wanted malfoy to do. For now Draco will most likly be killed.

Ok got a couple of what ifs ,, hey its all good ,
'
1st .. the UV Snape made with Narcississ simply stated he would complet the task the dark lord told Malfoy to do If Malfoy couldnt do it .. Alright lets assume the task was to Kill DD since it wasent spacifically stated but it was implied. We have one Flaw ,,,, it gives NO time to wich the UV must be completed . Lets say Malfoy has officially failed his task would Snape not be completing the UV if say in 200 years he kills DD ? or whenever DD says OH SNAPE come in here I have now fullfilled my Life please kill me now.. in 50 years,, Or maybe it happens next week ect,,, The Point is no Time has been put upon SNAPE to when he had to finish the UV at least not in my book .

Now lets assume DD was a skilled wizard,,, could he have not summoned his wand NON VERBAL at anytime during his talk with malfoy ? Yet he didnt. could he have Set up his death ?
Lets Assume Snape actually cast the AK curse on DD... somone mentioned Hate,, (might have been me) actually you have to "WANT" the curse this comes from Bellitex comments in book 5 and from the fake moody in class.. IE all of you could cast a spell and it wouldnt give me a nosebleed, or something to that effect.

OK Now Snape casts the AK spell on DD...... A} he has to WANT DD to die to make it effective. Did he "want" remember Snape keeps telling harry you must show NO emotion for his spells to work ??? Yet clearly Snape was showing emotion when he cast the AK Spell .. The Author goes to great detail again to express it , yet 5 pages later Snape is stating the contrary ? Odd ?? I like to think that Snape is telling harry stop with the EMOTION KID everytime you do your opponent the Dark Lord will know what your doing , Why is he still teach or attempting to teach Harry if he betrayed DD... I mean wouldnt he be like LOL and and thinking to himself "yes Luke show your emotion turn to the dark Side" That way the DARK Lord can Feast on your pathatic little NERD soul . No he again tries to teach Harry to stop giving away what is going to do . sign of a traitor ? maye who knows.
DD goes flying from the ramparts... OK why does the AUTHOR go to great detail not once but on no less than 9 oppertunitys in the HP book series to explain that the AK curse just kills you immediatly ther is no counter curse and that the effects are non visable .. You simply Die and no one knows why ? and Why does the AUTHOR have DD once again STATE that fact in this book no less than 200 pages prior to his Death ? Is she a horrible Author with no sence of continuity ? Is her Editor Brain dead ? are her proof readers clueless ?
Now we already know that DD can stop a person from falling to injury , So it would be know problem for him to cast a spell and simple float down and land light as a feather, we also know he could have cancelled every spell he cast ,, the mobization spell on Harry ect during this period.
Now that leads us to only One of two options .
Ether the AUTHOR is Completely LYING to us for effect and her Editors dont care about crappy Writing and DD is dead or
Snape cast the spell on DD but didnt mean it DD and or snape chose to leave the ramparts in a blasted off fashion for two reasons One so Harry would not be discovered and or looked for , and Two I wouldnt want to be DD lying on the ground with 5 Death eaters checking my pulse to see if i was faking and a Half crazed werewolf standing over me ready to go to my throat,
But as I stated before the Author never has been great on continuity .
Now another interesting point in the book is early on DD and harry go into a house where sluggy has attemted to fake his death ect,, and leaves off a few details as DD points out the dark mark and a Body and sluggy makes himself a chair.... Now could this be a bit of forshadowing ? or was this pointless stuff for entertainment ?

Now all of these points can be explained by sloppy writing .. I hope it isnt because I feel JKs work has been constently improving and this would be a slip back to Book one level ... The Greatest wizard in the world and 10 or so great teachers cant detect that another wizard is LIVING on the head of another teach who is eating just one seat away from them ,,, Ahemmm errrr dahhhhh DOOOOH... Not to mention that there was terrible odor comming from it wouldnt you be checking and or inspecting to see what the heck the odor was while you were eating ?
Good thing the story was fun or It could have been the end right there.
Oh and another point Maybe im wrong but ... Quarrel was never introduced as a NEW teacher at howarts,,, as a matter of fact it was implied he was there for many years by Hagrid as the DA teacher,, Now in this Book JK states no teaches has lasted more than a year for the last 16-20 years... ummmm you see my point about continuity ,
Now Im ranting .. Good reading and let me know your opinions. Sure wish JK would ansewer some of these points.