Full Version: Harry/Hermione
| QUOTE (Westerly @ Sep 23 2005, 01:30 AM) |
| And it was a pleasure to see two well-rounded, yet flawed characters interact, and have a relationship that seemed realistic to many of us. It wasn't all smooth sailing, and blandness. Contrary to what some would have us believe H/Hr has conflict, disagreement, argument, tension and drama aplenty. The beauty of it however, was in the way that they overcame or constructively worked these things out on the occasions that they did occur. Yes, they were well aware of each others weaknesses and flaws and clearly knew and understood each other, and demonstrated a degree of caring. It takes real time, and real interest and effort to get to know and understand someone extremely well. As a reader, that really mattered to me. Yet, knowing each other as well as they did, they had every opportunity in the world to lash out and go for the jugular - yet they didn't because they actually cared about one another and didn't actively seek to cause the other one pain, or to humiliate one another. (They have that 'respect' factor, that Nymphe alluded to earlier.) The potential of H/Hr to go further was dismantled in precisely the way that I had always dreaded that it would be. (i.e. that JK would fundamentally change who they were in order to make them suitable for other arrangements.) So Harry had to suddenly metamorphosise into being super-cool, callous and top-dog, while Hermione on the other hand had to be dumbed out, deranged and turned into a parody of averageness in order to stamp out any flicker of H/Hr and to make the respective pairings that did eventuate even possible. I |
I could not have said this any better! Although I may not have been very wild about Harry and Hermione being romantically involved previously, I absolutely love the relationship they do have. Even as a friendship, I think they have a more beautiful relationship with, say, Hermine has with Ron (now that JK has put them together), simply for the reasons several other people have already stated: they understand each other, and they have put effort into being true to each other. They compliment each other well because they excel in different areas. They never seem to really fight - at times it's almost too perfect.
I think overall in this series Hermione is meant to represent a constant in Harry's life. His parents are gone, Sirius is gone, Dumbledore is gone, Ron has been known to ignore Harry (remember GoF?), etc...but Hermione has always been there. Even if they never do end up romantically, their relationship will always be my favorite.
I agree with Dominique (once again!) that it is OotP that really, really hints at not only a firm friendship, and loyalty but also compatibility, equality and partnership of a more adult variety than we'd seen thus far. There is a depth and a resonance to their interaction that transcends anything that we'd read thus far in the series. Even when they're fighting, there is a level of extreme trust understanding between the two. Unfortunately, unless I'm completely wrong (and it's not that that hasn't happened before 
), it seems as if OotP might be the high-point for H/Hr in terms of canon....
It's not that I disagree with Runes romantic trajectory (crush, lust then the final realisation of real love) - it makes perfect sense to me, as does the notion of H/Hr finally occuring in the 7th book (slow and steady wins the race
) - but JK really seems to think and feel otherwise. In my mind I had quietly envisaged that Harry and Hermione would slowly come to the realisation that *this* is what love actually looks like - not the feeling of excited flattery accrued from Krum, the sweet, but naive adolescent crushing on Cho, the argumentative and ugly extremes with Ron, or the inexplicably amorphous, straight-out-of-the-blue-yonder *monster-fest* with Ginny.
It would be reassuring to think that JK has a greater plan beyond the literary wreck of HBP - but from what I've heard from her, and read for myself - I think not. And I do have this question for H/Hrs - if book 7 was better than your wildest dreams (great plot, plenty of detective work, intelligent plot twists, action, and magic with all of our favourite characters getting to play a real role in the book and fulfil their potential) - if book 7 also delivered H/Hr (just the way you like it) - would this help you to come to terms with what occured in HBP?
Would it make HBP seem more in step with the entire series, instead of a bizarre aberration? Would it clarify/justify HBP and help it make 'sense' to you? Think on it.
For me, a 7th book that debunked much of what happened in HBP (and allowed H/Hr to have sway) would simply make the 7th book a good book - but it wouldn't salvage HBP, justify it, or make it any better than it is and here's why:
In TGoF and even OotP we see Harry and Hermione having relationships with other people etc. - they're not romantically together - yet note how their interest in other people doesn't damage the actual quality of the books themselves or affect the writing in the slightest. They're decently written. Most H/Hr supporters that I know of like those books.
PS and PoA are not 'romantic' at all (they're still kids), yet they're very good books. (H/Hr should consider this point the next time they are confronted with someone who suggests that they are 'only' complaining because the romance that they wanted did not eventuate.)
I think CoS is a weak book, not because H/HR aren't blushing at each other and making moves, but because the writing isn't as resonant as PS, the storyline really isn't as interesting and the book feels like transitional filler (which is a similar complaint that I have with HBP.)
A lack of H/Hr 'romance' does not affect my judgement of how good the books are, and as an H/Hr supporter I do get annoyed when I'm treated as if I can't think or judge a book on its merits. I love PoA because it's action-packed, vivid and exciting and the actual writing is good. The H/Hr partnership is at the centre of it, and yes it fuels the pace, structurates the plot and yes - it is an interaction that I like - but 'romance'
(which, does not even feature in the book) has nothing to do with why I like the book. I dislike HBP, not because H/Hr didn't eventuate ( - I've always been rather pessimistic about the chances of H/Hr, but thought that if that relationship was ever going to happen it would be in the 7th book - ) but because I think it's a shallowly conceived, badly-written snore.
A lack of 'romance' between H/Hr has never prevented me from enjoying an HP book (after all, my favourite book in the series has nothing to do with romance), and it is not what prevents me from enjoying HBP.
ETA: dr2cOLv - where have you been all my posting life? Great to read that someone else sees the romance as (incidental) icing, and the previously existing relationship as the cake - so to speak. But yeah - I really do think that their friendship outstrips all of the other relationships in the series and anchors the books.
), it seems as if OotP might be the high-point for H/Hr in terms of canon....It's not that I disagree with Runes romantic trajectory (crush, lust then the final realisation of real love) - it makes perfect sense to me, as does the notion of H/Hr finally occuring in the 7th book (slow and steady wins the race
) - but JK really seems to think and feel otherwise. In my mind I had quietly envisaged that Harry and Hermione would slowly come to the realisation that *this* is what love actually looks like - not the feeling of excited flattery accrued from Krum, the sweet, but naive adolescent crushing on Cho, the argumentative and ugly extremes with Ron, or the inexplicably amorphous, straight-out-of-the-blue-yonder *monster-fest* with Ginny.It would be reassuring to think that JK has a greater plan beyond the literary wreck of HBP - but from what I've heard from her, and read for myself - I think not. And I do have this question for H/Hrs - if book 7 was better than your wildest dreams (great plot, plenty of detective work, intelligent plot twists, action, and magic with all of our favourite characters getting to play a real role in the book and fulfil their potential) - if book 7 also delivered H/Hr (just the way you like it) - would this help you to come to terms with what occured in HBP?
Would it make HBP seem more in step with the entire series, instead of a bizarre aberration? Would it clarify/justify HBP and help it make 'sense' to you? Think on it.
For me, a 7th book that debunked much of what happened in HBP (and allowed H/Hr to have sway) would simply make the 7th book a good book - but it wouldn't salvage HBP, justify it, or make it any better than it is and here's why:
In TGoF and even OotP we see Harry and Hermione having relationships with other people etc. - they're not romantically together - yet note how their interest in other people doesn't damage the actual quality of the books themselves or affect the writing in the slightest. They're decently written. Most H/Hr supporters that I know of like those books.
PS and PoA are not 'romantic' at all (they're still kids), yet they're very good books. (H/Hr should consider this point the next time they are confronted with someone who suggests that they are 'only' complaining because the romance that they wanted did not eventuate.)
I think CoS is a weak book, not because H/HR aren't blushing at each other and making moves, but because the writing isn't as resonant as PS, the storyline really isn't as interesting and the book feels like transitional filler (which is a similar complaint that I have with HBP.)
A lack of H/Hr 'romance' does not affect my judgement of how good the books are, and as an H/Hr supporter I do get annoyed when I'm treated as if I can't think or judge a book on its merits. I love PoA because it's action-packed, vivid and exciting and the actual writing is good. The H/Hr partnership is at the centre of it, and yes it fuels the pace, structurates the plot and yes - it is an interaction that I like - but 'romance'
(which, does not even feature in the book) has nothing to do with why I like the book. I dislike HBP, not because H/Hr didn't eventuate ( - I've always been rather pessimistic about the chances of H/Hr, but thought that if that relationship was ever going to happen it would be in the 7th book - ) but because I think it's a shallowly conceived, badly-written snore.A lack of 'romance' between H/Hr has never prevented me from enjoying an HP book (after all, my favourite book in the series has nothing to do with romance), and it is not what prevents me from enjoying HBP.
ETA: dr2cOLv - where have you been all my posting life?
Great to read that someone else sees the romance as (incidental) icing, and the previously existing relationship as the cake - so to speak. But yeah - I really do think that their friendship outstrips all of the other relationships in the series and anchors the books.
All right, at the end of HBP there is no R/Hr or H/G, so anything is fair game at this point. There is still hope for H/Hr as they travel along on their journey. If during the course of their adventure they start to tell each other their respective histories in the next book, you can bet something will happen. There will be an "I love you" for Harry from Hermione for sure!
If you need more encouragement, check out the various theories and websites concerning H/Hr. I am not sure about linking to other sites about the theories they have. Is that allowed?
If you need more encouragement, check out the various theories and websites concerning H/Hr. I am not sure about linking to other sites about the theories they have. Is that allowed?
| QUOTE (Westerly @ Sep 26 2005 @ 07:17 PM) |
| It would be reassuring to think that JK has a greater plan beyond the literary wreck of HBP - but from what I've heard from her, and read for myself - I think not. And I do have this question for H/Hrs - if book 7 was better than your wildest dreams (great plot, plenty of detective work, intelligent plot twists, action, and magic with all of our favourite characters getting to play a real role in the book and fulfil their potential) - if book 7 also delivered H/Hr (just the way you like it) - would this help you to come to terms with what occured in HBP? Would it make HBP seem more in step with the entire series, instead of a bizarre aberration? Would it clarify/justify HBP and help it make 'sense' to you? Think on it. |
I am strange that I actually started to pay attention to shipping after HBP came out and started to support H/Hr after seeing what JKR wrote for Ginny. Before then, I really did not care, but I did understand the various shippers POVs. At this point, I am not sure if the last book will rectify the character assasination and cheesy romance of HBP. I am trying to keep an open mind they we are viewing this through a teenage boy's mind, but it is hard.
I think the main problem I have with the book is the confusing and open nature that leaves me wondering what happened and why? After the other books, we had some closure even though new mysteries were abound. This time, it was the characters' behaviors that left us scratching our collective heads. I am going to try to give JKR a benefit of a doubt and if she knocked down Hermione for Ron and/or to have her "lone hero" then I may hate HBP even more.
MOD EDIT: Please refer below to Hallia's post. Thanks!
After JKR made the obvious announcement, many people wonder why the movies seem to heavily reflect the H/Hr dynamic. With the recent wave of HHr pics I offer a suggestion: the directors also saw this dynamic too.
Yes, Jo Rowling does approve the screenplays, but the screenplays themselves do not dictate shot by shot the vision of the director. In the end, all the cutting and the editing is done (most likely) from any influence by the author. She doesn't get to see or choose what the director sees behind the lense. After all, she isn't a director.
Maybe she guides the art department and costumes on the look and feel of the movie, but ultimately it's the director that guides the moments and the characters...and unless they, too, are delusional (to be honest, many hollywood productions are, but that's another rant, hehe) I think Harry and Hermione evoke the strongest and logical sense to them.
Albeit, Steve Kloves is mad about the character Hermione and no doubt influenced the first two screenplays to really show her off. Perhaps that's how the relationship appears to take shape. But, again, he's not the only one involved/implicated in the direction of the Harry/Hermione characterization.
Also, I doubt Mike Newel and other screenwriters are privy to Jo's entire HP epic. If she doesn't go around and spoil/leak her future storylines to the actors of the movies, then I doubt she does this to the directors. If so, yes, I think the movies would see a much more toned down version of their relationship. They, in effect, are undermining the current and canon Harry Potter series by implying things that are not to be. Yet, movies are an influencial force, undoubtedly affecting millions of young and old viewers, so how could the author NOT take into account what's been happenning. Surely, she should excercise more control over the direction of the movies in order to retain her narrative.
She may well do so later, but with the fourth installment gathering publicity and momentum, and with the legions of fans who have NOT read, and sadly will not read the books, will those audience members be dubbed "delusional" because one director's vision contradicted with the author?
I hope so. Yes, to be honest. Because the movies are basically taking a life of their own. It might be inevitable that the last two books will be seriously revised in order to follow the previous movie narratives. And that would mean hope to us H/Hrs.
But I also think that perhaps, as Jo Rowling is amused with all these shipping debates, she doesn't notice (or doesn't care about) the growing and obvious H/Hr dynamic on screen. If she actually is oblivious to their interaction, then, I've surely underestimated the woman. If she doesn't care about her product then, quite frankly, why should we?
Yes, Jo Rowling does approve the screenplays, but the screenplays themselves do not dictate shot by shot the vision of the director. In the end, all the cutting and the editing is done (most likely) from any influence by the author. She doesn't get to see or choose what the director sees behind the lense. After all, she isn't a director.
Maybe she guides the art department and costumes on the look and feel of the movie, but ultimately it's the director that guides the moments and the characters...and unless they, too, are delusional (to be honest, many hollywood productions are, but that's another rant, hehe) I think Harry and Hermione evoke the strongest and logical sense to them.
Albeit, Steve Kloves is mad about the character Hermione and no doubt influenced the first two screenplays to really show her off. Perhaps that's how the relationship appears to take shape. But, again, he's not the only one involved/implicated in the direction of the Harry/Hermione characterization.
Also, I doubt Mike Newel and other screenwriters are privy to Jo's entire HP epic. If she doesn't go around and spoil/leak her future storylines to the actors of the movies, then I doubt she does this to the directors. If so, yes, I think the movies would see a much more toned down version of their relationship. They, in effect, are undermining the current and canon Harry Potter series by implying things that are not to be. Yet, movies are an influencial force, undoubtedly affecting millions of young and old viewers, so how could the author NOT take into account what's been happenning. Surely, she should excercise more control over the direction of the movies in order to retain her narrative.
She may well do so later, but with the fourth installment gathering publicity and momentum, and with the legions of fans who have NOT read, and sadly will not read the books, will those audience members be dubbed "delusional" because one director's vision contradicted with the author?
I hope so. Yes, to be honest. Because the movies are basically taking a life of their own. It might be inevitable that the last two books will be seriously revised in order to follow the previous movie narratives. And that would mean hope to us H/Hrs.
But I also think that perhaps, as Jo Rowling is amused with all these shipping debates, she doesn't notice (or doesn't care about) the growing and obvious H/Hr dynamic on screen. If she actually is oblivious to their interaction, then, I've surely underestimated the woman. If she doesn't care about her product then, quite frankly, why should we?
| QUOTE |
| I agree with Dominique (once again!) |
Aww thank you! I'm a her (girl) by the way
I agree with you guys too! All of you! But now that I'm agreeing.. I don't know what to say anymore, but, I agree
I don't want to ramble on and on about what I allready posted, but... Corpus_Agnelli, I totally understand where your comming from! It's as much J.K Rowlings fault as it is the directors of the recent movies, for giving us so much hope on H/HR's behalf... by that I mean of course the cuddly, stares and HHr interaction.. Am I really that delusional seeing all of this? What is Jo trying to prove? We've been made fun of as it is, make it stop! *hugs H/HR Thread..* May it never go away...
-Dominique
Hiya, Nymphe, and welcome to VTM!
I just wanted to ask you to please drop by the forum rules. You'll find a link to them in my sig. Double posts are not allowed, that is, posting twice in a row in the same thread. If you want to add something to a post, simply hit the 'edit' button on the top right corner of the post you want to edit and them you can modify it.
You can post links to things you find interesting if you think other members will find it interesting too, it's advertising other sites what's not allowed.
If you need anything, drop any of us Prefects or Mods a line and we'll be delighted to help.
Now I'll step out and let you all keep discussing. Have fun!
I just wanted to ask you to please drop by the forum rules. You'll find a link to them in my sig. Double posts are not allowed, that is, posting twice in a row in the same thread. If you want to add something to a post, simply hit the 'edit' button on the top right corner of the post you want to edit and them you can modify it.
You can post links to things you find interesting if you think other members will find it interesting too, it's advertising other sites what's not allowed.
If you need anything, drop any of us Prefects or Mods a line and we'll be delighted to help.
Now I'll step out and let you all keep discussing. Have fun!
Sorry about the double post...bad timing on my part.
I am of the mindset that JKR is misdirecting us once again, which is why I place little value on her interviews. She has done it before with carefully placed words. If she wanted to save H/Hr for the end of her last book, she would have to. To me, HBP felt like one great big misdirection over all! Just keep this in mind: which two characters have had the most buildup throughout the entire series and have changed the most. Ginny and Ron surely have not. Now that's an anvil for me!
I am of the mindset that JKR is misdirecting us once again, which is why I place little value on her interviews. She has done it before with carefully placed words. If she wanted to save H/Hr for the end of her last book, she would have to. To me, HBP felt like one great big misdirection over all! Just keep this in mind: which two characters have had the most buildup throughout the entire series and have changed the most. Ginny and Ron surely have not. Now that's an anvil for me!
| QUOTE (Dominique @ Sep 27 2005, 04:01 PM) |
| Am I really that delusional seeing all of this? What is Jo trying to prove? We've been made fun of as it is, make it stop! |
Well, to be fair Jo never actually said we were delusional. She just happened to agree with the actual person who stated we were.
But I've really enjoyed reading all of these posts since I've got here. I too was not really a H/Hr until the HBP came out. I didn't care who did what, quite frankly. And I'm not that big of a Harry Potter book fan. I just read them because my students are major fans and they practically ordered me to read the series ("Sacrilege!" they told me when I told them I only watched the movies). Naturally, as a reader (even a reluctant one), it frustrated me how the underlying relationships suddenly took a u-turn. But I thought it was just me, until I came here and read the various "ships".
The H/Hr ship has, without a doubt, the most articulate and well thought out arguments (from folks such as Westerly, Dominique, et al) that are a joy to read. They should all be collected and sent to the publishers, nay...the author. Even if she doesn't change her story or her mind, I'm sure she can appreciate how our sensibilities are not "delusional". Or at least be thankful we are buying her books.
| QUOTE (Corpus_Agnelli @ Sep 28 2005, 12:20 AM) |
| Well, to be fair Jo never actually said we were delusional. She just happened to agree with the actual person who stated we were. |
I disagree. JKR said that was their word, not hers. I think many shippers are angry that she did not apologize on her website about the misconceptions the interview took. I have a feeling she may not understand the damage it caused in her fanbase. From now on, I think she should leave interviewing alone until the last book has been out at least a month or more, then she can blab all she wants.
| QUOTE |
| The H/Hr ship has, without a doubt, the most articulate and well thought out arguments (from folks such as Westerly, Dominique, et al) that are a joy to read. |
From what I have seen around the 'net, I completely agree with this statement! I have gone to the large H/Hr sites and the theories (not just shipping stuff) they have for the next book are amazing and canon-backed. The comparing/contrasting, parallels to past books, and other things are much more interesting than the books themselves I find.
I think Harry will get a nice emotional wake-up call during the wedding proccedure and Hermione may hold his attention again, as she did during the Yule Ball.
Okay... I've been lurking long enough...
Dominique... Thank you for holding down this fort from day one of this thread opening! Once again You guys have come through for me!
It does my heart good to read all these excellent posts... I had to wander back due to the recent release of the trailers and pics. After seeing how heavily laden they are with H/Hr moments (Like POA) I was so annoyed.
I wanted to see what the general concensus was for us H/HR shippers.
After all we've been through regarding the disastrous relationships in HBP, it is just plain cruel to have this movie come out chock full of the amazing H/Hr relationship we had come to love So much in all the previous books.
Yee Gads!
I have to say, regarding whether JKR is aware of what is going on, considering all that she has said about reading comments on mugglenet and leaky and other sites, it would be hard for me to believe that she is not completely aware of what is going on and that she has decided that staying completely clear of it is safer. Her judgement is questionable to me at this point.
You are all voicing the many thoughts and feelings that I am going through and it is SO GREAT to read all of them here!
THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!
Dominique... Thank you for holding down this fort from day one of this thread opening! Once again You guys have come through for me!
It does my heart good to read all these excellent posts... I had to wander back due to the recent release of the trailers and pics. After seeing how heavily laden they are with H/Hr moments (Like POA) I was so annoyed.
I wanted to see what the general concensus was for us H/HR shippers.
After all we've been through regarding the disastrous relationships in HBP, it is just plain cruel to have this movie come out chock full of the amazing H/Hr relationship we had come to love So much in all the previous books.
Yee Gads!
I have to say, regarding whether JKR is aware of what is going on, considering all that she has said about reading comments on mugglenet and leaky and other sites, it would be hard for me to believe that she is not completely aware of what is going on and that she has decided that staying completely clear of it is safer. Her judgement is questionable to me at this point.
You are all voicing the many thoughts and feelings that I am going through and it is SO GREAT to read all of them here!
THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!
| QUOTE (Nymphe @ Sep 28 2005, 06:18 AM) |
| I think Harry will get a nice emotional wake-up call during the wedding proccedure and Hermione may hold his attention again, as she did during the Yule Ball. |
Only if the author wants to write it. Pity it has to hinge on that, eh? Sigh.
| QUOTE (jewal) |
| You are all voicing the many thoughts and feelings that I am going through and it is SO GREAT to read all of them here! |
One reason I enjoy this thread is that the ratio between articulate analyses and plain ol' "Yea, our ship rocks!!! Hugs and kisses!" is greater than other threads. I suspect that's why the post numbers are smaller here.
But it's not about quantity, it's quality. Oh, and sensibility.
I'm waiting to see if the entire movie will continue to maintain the close interactions between Harry and Hermione. The teasers and trailers may just have been cut that way to lure us in, again, with false hope. Or perhaps the trailers were cut by an avid H/Hr shipper who wants so desparately for this ship to sail. They aren't necessarily cut by directors.
...or (and I'm crossing my fingers) it hints at what is to come in the actual movie. There are still plenty to reasons to hope.
I must say that I am definitely with those who believe that Mrs. Rowling purposefully changed the characters in HBP to accommodate the ships that were presented therein.
Ron/Hermione: In previous books, most interactions between these two were those of constant feuding. Though it was apparent that Ron had feelings for Hermione judging from his jealous reactions, I never once got the impression that Hermione was at all jealous or had romantic feelings when it came to Ron. Her reaction after the Yule Ball only proved to me that she knew that Ron liked her, not that she liked Ron. Also, after the second task, both Ron and Krum were present by the lake. Guess who she pays attention to and who she totally ignores.
Harry/Ginny: This strikes me as strange. Sure this couple makes sense because Ginny had a crush on Harry early on in the series. Being Ron's sister makes it an even better arrangement. However, much like Hermione, I don't believe Harry himself shows much jealousy or feelings toward Ginny until HBP.
Both Ron and Ginny seem to act the same as in the rest of the series, but it seems as if some imaginary switch has been turned on both Harry and Hermione all of a sudden. It's almost as if Mrs. Rowling re-read her books, noticed the overwhelming evidence of the Harry/Hermione relationship and tried to cover her tracks to make the HBP ships work. Either that, or she is really laying a big whopper of a surprise on us for the seventh book (HBP being a dream--doubtful; some form of manipulation--Voldemort through Harry(dragon deep inside-he may be shutting Harry out of his mind, but who says Voldemort isn't doing some shady dealings), etc.). Anyway, I feel that the change of our ship's characters was done too drastically to be believable.
By the way, even Dumbledore seemed a bit out of character through most of HBP. Though he would always counter with modesty, his constant mention of his abilities seemed done way too many times for someone like him, which has prompted many of the polyjuice potion theories. I will only say one thing about the ending since this isn't the right thread, but most of the circumstances surrounding that event support notions to not take it at face value. Too much was left unexplained for it to be an open and shut case.
Here's hoping that the seventh book will shine a huge light on all these mysteries!
Ron/Hermione: In previous books, most interactions between these two were those of constant feuding. Though it was apparent that Ron had feelings for Hermione judging from his jealous reactions, I never once got the impression that Hermione was at all jealous or had romantic feelings when it came to Ron. Her reaction after the Yule Ball only proved to me that she knew that Ron liked her, not that she liked Ron. Also, after the second task, both Ron and Krum were present by the lake. Guess who she pays attention to and who she totally ignores.
Harry/Ginny: This strikes me as strange. Sure this couple makes sense because Ginny had a crush on Harry early on in the series. Being Ron's sister makes it an even better arrangement. However, much like Hermione, I don't believe Harry himself shows much jealousy or feelings toward Ginny until HBP.
Both Ron and Ginny seem to act the same as in the rest of the series, but it seems as if some imaginary switch has been turned on both Harry and Hermione all of a sudden. It's almost as if Mrs. Rowling re-read her books, noticed the overwhelming evidence of the Harry/Hermione relationship and tried to cover her tracks to make the HBP ships work. Either that, or she is really laying a big whopper of a surprise on us for the seventh book (HBP being a dream--doubtful; some form of manipulation--Voldemort through Harry(dragon deep inside-he may be shutting Harry out of his mind, but who says Voldemort isn't doing some shady dealings), etc.). Anyway, I feel that the change of our ship's characters was done too drastically to be believable.
By the way, even Dumbledore seemed a bit out of character through most of HBP. Though he would always counter with modesty, his constant mention of his abilities seemed done way too many times for someone like him, which has prompted many of the polyjuice potion theories. I will only say one thing about the ending since this isn't the right thread, but most of the circumstances surrounding that event support notions to not take it at face value. Too much was left unexplained for it to be an open and shut case.
Here's hoping that the seventh book will shine a huge light on all these mysteries!
You guys are turning me back into a diehard Harmonian! Shame! I only went to the Sibling Theory because I was afraid that Harry and Hermione would never get together. Even before the diastorous debacle of HBP romance, I was fairly certain that Ron was going to get the girl, even though I saw a better relationship between Harry and Hermione...but now I'm feeling a bit more hopeful about the prospects of an H/Hr romance in Book Seven. In one of her interviews, JK Rowling said that mystery writers use romance to disguise hidden motives and plotlines. Let's hope that Ron/Hermione and Harry/Ginny were just covering up for the emerging romance of Year Seven!
I swear, if we don't see either a H/Hr Romance or the Sibling Theory come to fruitition in Book Seven, JK Rowling will have some serious explaining to do...like why there were all the clues planted throughout the books...and why Harry and Hermione got along better than the romantic couples JK Rowling created...and I could go on, but won't.
I still plan to finish my Year Seven (Sibling Theory) epic-length fan fic, but after I'm done, I might go back and edit out the Sibling plotline and make Harry and Hermione fall in love instead. Sorry, worded that poorly. It sounds incestual the way I wrote it...you know what I mean. In one they're siblings, and in the other, they're not siblings but they are in love. Would anyone read it?
I only went to the Sibling Theory because I was afraid that Harry and Hermione would never get together. Even before the diastorous debacle of HBP romance, I was fairly certain that Ron was going to get the girl, even though I saw a better relationship between Harry and Hermione...but now I'm feeling a bit more hopeful about the prospects of an H/Hr romance in Book Seven. In one of her interviews, JK Rowling said that mystery writers use romance to disguise hidden motives and plotlines. Let's hope that Ron/Hermione and Harry/Ginny were just covering up for the emerging romance of Year Seven! I swear, if we don't see either a H/Hr Romance or the Sibling Theory come to fruitition in Book Seven, JK Rowling will have some serious explaining to do...like why there were all the clues planted throughout the books...and why Harry and Hermione got along better than the romantic couples JK Rowling created...and I could go on, but won't.
I still plan to finish my Year Seven (Sibling Theory) epic-length fan fic, but after I'm done, I might go back and edit out the Sibling plotline and make Harry and Hermione fall in love instead. Sorry, worded that poorly. It sounds incestual the way I wrote it...you know what I mean. In one they're siblings, and in the other, they're not siblings but they are in love. Would anyone read it?
| QUOTE |
| Dominique... Thank you for holding down this fort from day one of this thread opening! |
Aww, heehee... It's ok
*blushes*| QUOTE |
| It's almost as if Mrs. Rowling re-read her books, noticed the overwhelming evidence of the Harry/Hermione relationship and tried to cover her tracks to make the HBP ships work. |
Exactly! Had to yank the words out of my mouth did you?
lol... I swear, that's what I was trying to say, but it really didn't work out.. so bravo! 
Ahh.. Book Seven.. what a mystery.. It stinks having to wait another possible 2 years before it's released isn't it? All these questions we want anwsers to, now! But what can we do? I'll tell you what we can do, we we can read fanfics untill then and get ready for the GoF movie comming out ever so soon
-Dominique
I just been reading ootp, and there was a part
"Good luck Ron," said Hermione, standing on tiptoe and kissing him on the cheek. "And you, Harry-"
Now, many ppl use this as an example of R/hr, since she kisses ron, but in this scence, i also think she kissed harry, the "-" at the end. Wot r ur thoughts, just wonderin....
MOD EDIT : Hiya and welcome to the forums!
Could I ask you to please take a few moments to read through the rules? I'm afraid that netspeak ('r', 'ur' etc) isn't allowed on the forums.
"Good luck Ron," said Hermione, standing on tiptoe and kissing him on the cheek. "And you, Harry-"
Now, many ppl use this as an example of R/hr, since she kisses ron, but in this scence, i also think she kissed harry, the "-" at the end. Wot r ur thoughts, just wonderin....
MOD EDIT : Hiya and welcome to the forums!
Could I ask you to please take a few moments to read through the rules? I'm afraid that netspeak ('r', 'ur' etc) isn't allowed on the forums.
| QUOTE (joejoe @ Sep 29 2005, 03:30 PM) |
| I just been reading ootp, and there was a part "Good luck Ron," said Hermione, standing on tiptoe and kissing him on the cheek. "And you, Harry-" Now, many ppl use this as an example of R/hr, since she kisses ron, but in this scence, i also think she kissed harry, the "-" at the end. Wot r ur thoughts, just wonderin.... |
Ah, I'm too old for net-speak...LOL!
Look at the reactions. Harry is used to it by now, but Ron does not react in the same way he usually reacts with females he is attracted to-he displays amazement and disbelief, instead of blushing and stammering. People can see whatever they wish to see on Ron's part, but Hermione chose that moment to show both boys she cares about them, nothing more.
I read a great esssy about the adverbs JKR uses to modify Hermione's reactions to both boys pre-HBP and guess which one had the positive ones? I have to find it again but one can skim OotP and see it (remember Hermione's reaction about the prefect badges-I'm still mad at DD for not letting Harry have it).
joejoe, there have been arguments running back and forth over that isue, in the archived debate thread. That argument was running long before I was even a member of this board. It's safe to say though that the ' - ' is definitely an example of implied action or 'inference'. I agree with you. But, that is one point that I refuse to argue with R/H shippers anymore.
| QUOTE (Corpus Angelli wrote:) |
| But it's not about quantity, it's quality. Oh, and sensibility. |
Word, Corpus Agnelli. I was never a H/Hr shipper until I joined VTM and read compelling arguments from Dana_Scully, Phoenix Effects and the like, and became further attracted to this ship because - well it's the 'smart', articulate ship if the sites around the net are any indication. And when it comes to 'sensibility'? H/Hr has it down. I liked the type of relationship dynamic that H/Hrs were identifying.
The R/H shippers also helped me recognise a far better relationship in H/Hr (whether or not it was a 'romance') and a healthier way to portray a relationship, through fiction. If qualities like trust, openess, co-operation, support, closeness, friendship, loyalty, concern, caring, communication, depth and (my personal fav) equality - rock your boat - then welcome to our ship!
And yes - HBP has done nothing other than to make me support H/Hr all the more, because really, if that's the alternative.....
(And maybe that's the secret plan of HBP, because I can't help but notice how many neutrals or people who didn't greatly care about ships, or for the H/Hr ships, are suddenly seeing the merit of what H/Hr had....) It's might also be a way of keeping H/Hrs entrenched in the fandom, hanging on hopefully, trapped in a cruel game. That's the thing - I came into the shipping debate with the notion that it was just trivial fun and started posting because it was a debate thread! At the time I was open to any number of relationships (though have never warmed to the idea of R/H).
But as I became more and more involved with debating, it suddenly struck me how central this issue was. I really came to realise how completely differently R/H and H/Hr read the text and interepreted it. I was also confronted by how different our values and aesthetics concerning relationships were. And it was that huge and fundamental divide that made me realise that whichever ship sailed in wouldn't be a minor issue in the corner of the text - but would actually influence and shape what type of book we would get.
HBP underscores this point painfully I feel. Hence my cry - 'come back H/Hr - pronto.'
Corpus Agnelli's post about the portrayal of H/Hr in the movies raises an important point. I have a confession to make here - but, when I heard about the infamous 'delusional' comment floating around on the net, I wasn't upset in the slightest. Maybe this makes me odd and perhaps it's partly due to the fact that I'd already spent all my anger on the mess of HBP (so had none left in reserve) but, when the 'd' word surfaced, it only drew giggles from me. I thought (and still think) that it was really funny and ironic on her part.
I feel I can safely say this now, because people are feeling less sore about it, but honestly?I've never felt insulted or rattled by JK's interview, maybe because I'm too thick-skinned and secure (or arrogant?) in my view of the books. I don't doubt that JK wants the relationships that she has chosen and by extension, the narrative path that the series (unfortunately) seems to be following. She's free to want what she wants - just as I am wholly free to disagree with it.
Re: the movies? JK has really brought that situation on herself. The directors and screenplay writers are working with what they've been given. And what exactly have they been given? Hmmm, let's see. Five well-written books where the H/Hr interaction, whether romantic, platonic, or merely friendship is utterly central to the text and underpins the entire series.
The only reason why people (including the directors) can identify the importance and centrality of H/Hr is because *groan* JK wrote it that way! (Even if it was not her conscious intent.) But the simple fact of the matter is that they do more together and spend far more time together than anyone else. By constantly throwing them together, she turned them into a team.
Face it - without H/Hr are you wouldn't even have a series - without H/Hr - where's the story? HBP is horrible and weak because H/Hr don't get together, unite their abilities and do anything useful, or exciting. (Hence 'lone ranger' Harry, deranged Hermione and, the 'snogfest' that were inflicted upon us. Not exactly compelling reading.) You would think that CoS, which is one of the weaker books in the series would have alerted her to the fact that when it's action time - Hermione shouldn't be lying on the bed petrified or pushed off to one side!
Harry has many important relationships (Harry/Hagrid, Harry/Sirius, Harry/ Dumbledore, Harry/LupinHarry/Ron, Harry/Cho in it's inception, while Harry/Snape was perhaps the most intriguing relationship of the lot of them.)
But there is no point in denying the undeniable - H/Hr is *the* relationship that holds the entire series together - hate it or love it, she wrote those books on the basis of how those two interact, which is precisely what the film makers recognise. Her books do not work without this relationship as the supporting pillar.
Consequently, like us, they realise that they're not going to have much of a story to bring on screen if they try to ignore, down-play or excise H/Hr out of the story. They are the story! They are just as dependent on the H/Hr dynamic for narrative purposes, as JKR was.
You'd have to be dimmer than a blown light-bulb not to realise that that relationship is the lynchpin and the filter through which the main action in the series takes place. Most of the key moments (whether of action or emotional introspection) have taken place through the lens of H/Hr/! Take away H/Hr and what do you have? (I know, I know...HBP
)Does anyone remember the (admittedly cheesy) American teen angst-fest known as 'Dawson's Creek'? Does anyone remeber that the original relationship was supposed to be between Dawson and Joey - except that, they didn't have a lick of chemistry, while Joey and Pacey played off one another perfectly? And that this chemistry forced the writers to revise their original intention and reconsider the pairings?
I think it's unfortuante that the actors Emma Watson and Rupert Grint have little in the way of screen or physical chemistry (unlike Emma and Dan.) I don't mistake the films for canon, nor am I a fan of any of the actors. But from what I've seen, I find it really hard to picture the movie versions of Hermione and Ron together on screen. The movie versions of Harry and Ginny - I just don't see it either. Anyway, it will be interesting to see how thw directors get in line with the edicts of JK's interviews and HBP. Because if JK sincerely likes her current pairings, then the film-makers are veering wildly off course....
Hooray! for the screenwriters to the movies thus far. They see the chemistry between their characters and the actors who portray them. The screenwriters want to create a film that the public will enjoy and go back and see over and over again. Making money is the key word here. Why not continue what works well? And what works well is Harry (Dan) and Hermione (Emma) being together!
| QUOTE |
| But there is no point in denying the undeniable - H/Hr is *the* relationship that holds the entire series together |
Exactly! Well, I think so anyway.. And people may say.. Oh, that's only because you ship H/HR.. but it's not true, I love H/HR because.. because they just work for me!
Everyone has different opinions, I'm sure.. and I have mine: H/HR
Now, what happened in HBP, wow, I'm not even going into that.. let me just say.. what happened?! Ok, ok, I wasn't expecting any snogging between the two, but come on, what happend to the friendship? To the careing for eachother? To the two people we loved watching solve things out? Gone! Poof! Ok, so maybe not poof, but still.. they were holding on to a very weak string...The movies.. ahh well.. well, they are just.. I really don't know how to decribe them.. I like the H/HR interaction, but I don't at the same time, because it will be more painfull in the end seeing R/HR together (if they get together
) Well, we'll see what happens
-Dominique
[FONT=Courier][SIZE=7][COLOR=green]
hi i'm support h/hr know matter what happens in the books because hermione in the third movie was holding hands and every thing so yeah i support harry and hermione
hi i'm support h/hr know matter what happens in the books because hermione in the third movie was holding hands and every thing so yeah i support harry and hermione
| QUOTE (Dominique @ Sep 30 2005, 03:26 PM) |
| Ok, ok, I wasn't expecting any snogging between the two, but come on, what happend to the friendship? To the careing for eachother? To the two people we loved watching solve things out? Gone! Poof! Ok, so maybe not poof, but still.. they were holding on to a very weak string... |
Now cut that out! The friendship is still there and will be better than ever after all is said and done. We may need to carefully comb through the book to actually see that neither Harry nor Hermione stopped caring about each other.
An excellent example: Compare and contrast Ginny's and Hermione's actions towards Harry between the time Ginny pulls Harry away from Dumbledore's body and throughout the hospital scene. Which person actually gave Harry comfort?
Another example: What was Harry doing before Ron was attacked by the birds?
I am planning to reread the book after I see the GoF movie and take notes to keep my head focused on the facts and not the fluff. The bottom line: something was wrong with Harry throughout most of the book since we see everything through his eyes.
Nymphe, you're probably doing the right thing in re-visiting the text of HBP. Frankly, I haven't been willing to touch my book with a ten-foot pole since I first bought it - - not because of the shipping funnily enough, which I could re-read (while I my eyes) but because the Snape and Dumbledore transformations are verging on insulting to both characters, and I find so much of the book - the plot, the actual story - the tiresome swathes of pensieve-inspired Tom Riddle flashsbacks - deadly boring. I'm not sure that I want to go through that again.
Generally I try to make a rule not to read boring books, unless I am required to.
For me, the issue isn't that H/Hr suddenly 'stop' caring for each other, (not even JK could pull that one off!) but that the quality, quantity and inherent nature of their interaction changes for the worse, which impoverishes the text. They are deliberately kept apart for structural purposes. (HBP couldn't be the novel that it is if H/Hr continued to interact in the way that we hae grown accustomed to.)
Far more instances of Harry and Hermione being distracted, being detached from one another, or being downright adversarial occur in this text than in any of the previous installments. Three scenes that particularly bothered me are the scenes when Harry looks on at Hermione trying out-fox the shop-keeper and thinks that her attempts are 'lame'; the instance after the 'McClaggen' mauling where Harry looks on her with 'disgust' over the 'mad things that girls do'; and the part where he is openly happy with her departure due to the fact that she has never understood 'the seriousness' of quidditch.
Those were all moments that had me simply staring at my book.... Harry being 'disgusted' with Hermione, thinking that she's lame or being glad to see her go? Is not the H/Hr that I read the book for.
I don't expect Harry to perceive Hermione as some wonderful, perfect being of course and to be unaware of her faults. But my point is that he once had a perfect awareness and acceptance of Hermione's faults. He knows that she is bossy, he knows that she sometimes has a propensity to nag. He observes her academic competitiveness with clarity and acceptance rather than judgement, and is able to identify that it is an important part of who she is. (Ron after all, is the one who is constantly judging and attacking her for being smart and wanting to excel). Harry knows that Hermione can be stubborn, idealistic and high-minded about certain issue (see SPEW). He knows that she doesn't really understand Quidditch, but he has always accepted this as a part of who she is. He's never made the mistake of thinking that she's "perfect".
But I've never known Harry to look at Hermione with condemnation or 'disgust' - even when he was furious with her before their ill-fated trip to the DoM, Harry he was still able to recognise the warmth of her loyalty and her good intentions. So the sudden clinical coldness and judgemental nature of his gaze on her was jarring to me. I don't think that the friendship has permanently disappeared, but I do feel that it went on a literary 'hiatus'. If it resurfaces in book 7, then that will simply reveal the deliberate nature of why it was muted in book 6.
My suspicion is this - if Book 7 is going to be the grand finale, packed with action, adventure, mystery and magic - then JK will have to let H/Hr work together again if she wants a functioning plot. If they don't combine their abilites, how will anything get done? (We've already see what happens when they're seperated haven't we? )
I agree that there are moments when some of the old dynamic resurfaces, and I think it would be worthwhile to glean through those instances and collate them for purposes of analysis.
But when all is said an done - you would be recounting isolated instances. The thing is, I would have no problem if Harry and Hermione had had a serious conflict or a fight. It would have actually have made sense to me if Harry and Hermione's relationship was strained and even distant, due to what happened at the DoM. But the reasons for their change of attitude towards the other (because of senseless pursuits) just didn't sit well with me.
- not because of the shipping funnily enough, which I could re-read (while I my eyes) but because the Snape and Dumbledore transformations are verging on insulting to both characters, and I find so much of the book - the plot, the actual story - the tiresome swathes of pensieve-inspired Tom Riddle flashsbacks - deadly boring. I'm not sure that I want to go through that again.Generally I try to make a rule not to read boring books, unless I am required to.
For me, the issue isn't that H/Hr suddenly 'stop' caring for each other, (not even JK could pull that one off!) but that the quality, quantity and inherent nature of their interaction changes for the worse, which impoverishes the text. They are deliberately kept apart for structural purposes. (HBP couldn't be the novel that it is if H/Hr continued to interact in the way that we hae grown accustomed to.)
Far more instances of Harry and Hermione being distracted, being detached from one another, or being downright adversarial occur in this text than in any of the previous installments. Three scenes that particularly bothered me are the scenes when Harry looks on at Hermione trying out-fox the shop-keeper and thinks that her attempts are 'lame'; the instance after the 'McClaggen' mauling where Harry looks on her with 'disgust' over the 'mad things that girls do'; and the part where he is openly happy with her departure due to the fact that she has never understood 'the seriousness' of quidditch.
Those were all moments that had me simply staring at my book.... Harry being 'disgusted' with Hermione, thinking that she's lame or being glad to see her go? Is not the H/Hr that I read the book for.
I don't expect Harry to perceive Hermione as some wonderful, perfect being of course and to be unaware of her faults. But my point is that he once had a perfect awareness and acceptance of Hermione's faults. He knows that she is bossy, he knows that she sometimes has a propensity to nag. He observes her academic competitiveness with clarity and acceptance rather than judgement, and is able to identify that it is an important part of who she is. (Ron after all, is the one who is constantly judging and attacking her for being smart and wanting to excel). Harry knows that Hermione can be stubborn, idealistic and high-minded about certain issue (see SPEW). He knows that she doesn't really understand Quidditch, but he has always accepted this as a part of who she is. He's never made the mistake of thinking that she's "perfect".
But I've never known Harry to look at Hermione with condemnation or 'disgust' - even when he was furious with her before their ill-fated trip to the DoM, Harry he was still able to recognise the warmth of her loyalty and her good intentions. So the sudden clinical coldness and judgemental nature of his gaze on her was jarring to me. I don't think that the friendship has permanently disappeared, but I do feel that it went on a literary 'hiatus'. If it resurfaces in book 7, then that will simply reveal the deliberate nature of why it was muted in book 6.
My suspicion is this - if Book 7 is going to be the grand finale, packed with action, adventure, mystery and magic - then JK will have to let H/Hr work together again if she wants a functioning plot. If they don't combine their abilites, how will anything get done? (We've already see what happens when they're seperated haven't we?
)I agree that there are moments when some of the old dynamic resurfaces, and I think it would be worthwhile to glean through those instances and collate them for purposes of analysis.
But when all is said an done - you would be recounting isolated instances. The thing is, I would have no problem if Harry and Hermione had had a serious conflict or a fight. It would have actually have made sense to me if Harry and Hermione's relationship was strained and even distant, due to what happened at the DoM. But the reasons for their change of attitude towards the other (because of senseless pursuits) just didn't sit well with me.
Exactly Westerly! I'm not going to quote anything because you said alot of things that I agree with
Nymphe.. I know, I know.. but there was a lack of H/HR interaction wasn't there? The relationship between them was different.. a little tweaked perhaps? For me anyways, something was missing... I don't exactly know what, but it was something. And yes, Harry feeling disgusted with Hermione? Er.. Westerly you said it all.. and seeing as I can't word in any other way, I'll leave it at that
-Dominique
Nymphe.. I know, I know.. but there was a lack of H/HR interaction wasn't there? The relationship between them was different.. a little tweaked perhaps? For me anyways, something was missing... I don't exactly know what, but it was something. And yes, Harry feeling disgusted with Hermione? Er..
Westerly you said it all.. and seeing as I can't word in any other way, I'll leave it at that -Dominique
First of all, glad to see so many good posts!!! H/Hr ship all the way!
Great to see some interesting theories too. The romance part in HBP do get a little confusing though. I read a lot of editorials and been to a lot of "shipping" sites, and truth to be told I was surprised how people can come up with some of the "ships", I absolutely love it! Just the possibility of it.
Anyways I think that everything that happened in the first five books do build up to what happened in HBP, as it would take forever and ever to explain I just want to say that each individual has their own experiences that shape them to who they are today. Through the first five books we do see a lot of different interactions between H/Hr, R/Hr, H/R, etc. I recall in some previous post that I read someone said something like "without the H/Hr interaction and stuff there wouldn't be a story/plot", that's exactly it. I mean yeah, as one of the editorial has said a lot (and I actually was convined by it), but I came to realize that not one relationship in the world is "perfect" (well it also depends on how you define perfect) however.
Anyways I get carried away sometimes and just keep blabbling on and on, so sorry about that.
On another note, J.K. Rowling did say to "read between the lines" and "can't believe people still haven't figure it out yet" but I want to say that by reading between the lines it means to tell people to find the true meaning, not by some universal law but by their own thoughts and feelings. So for me I "read between the lines" and I can only see H/Hr being together. The fact that Rowling said "...that yes, I personally feel - well it's going to be clear once people have read book six. I mean, that’s it. It’s done, isn’t it? We know. Yes, we do now know that it's Ron and Hermione. I do feel that I have dropped heavy -" Now why would she just give away one of the biggest plot (as a lot of the previous threat/post has said) in the books? Could she be pulling our legs? Or is that really "it"?
Anyways I can't help but keep noticing another thing, that a lot of the people are mixing their feelings for Dan/Emma/Rupert with the characters they play - Harry/Hermione/Ron, I notice that (not all, but most) of the fans that like Dan and Emma seems to like Harry and Hermione and same for fans that like Rupert and Emma rooting for Ron and Hermione. Its just really interesting to see that.
I am going to say however even though I do root for H/Hr, and if R/Hr do turn out to be together, the books are still great and Rowling is amazing. Just keep in mind that Harry Potter is "fiction" afterall, (though I really do believe the fact that magic and stuff do exist"
Great to see some interesting theories too. The romance part in HBP do get a little confusing though. I read a lot of editorials and been to a lot of "shipping" sites, and truth to be told I was surprised how people can come up with some of the "ships", I absolutely love it! Just the possibility of it.
Anyways I think that everything that happened in the first five books do build up to what happened in HBP, as it would take forever and ever to explain I just want to say that each individual has their own experiences that shape them to who they are today. Through the first five books we do see a lot of different interactions between H/Hr, R/Hr, H/R, etc. I recall in some previous post that I read someone said something like "without the H/Hr interaction and stuff there wouldn't be a story/plot", that's exactly it. I mean yeah, as one of the editorial has said a lot (and I actually was convined by it), but I came to realize that not one relationship in the world is "perfect" (well it also depends on how you define perfect) however.
Anyways I get carried away sometimes and just keep blabbling on and on, so sorry about that.
On another note, J.K. Rowling did say to "read between the lines" and "can't believe people still haven't figure it out yet" but I want to say that by reading between the lines it means to tell people to find the true meaning, not by some universal law but by their own thoughts and feelings. So for me I "read between the lines" and I can only see H/Hr being together. The fact that Rowling said "...that yes, I personally feel - well it's going to be clear once people have read book six. I mean, that’s it. It’s done, isn’t it? We know. Yes, we do now know that it's Ron and Hermione. I do feel that I have dropped heavy -" Now why would she just give away one of the biggest plot (as a lot of the previous threat/post has said) in the books? Could she be pulling our legs? Or is that really "it"?
Anyways I can't help but keep noticing another thing, that a lot of the people are mixing their feelings for Dan/Emma/Rupert with the characters they play - Harry/Hermione/Ron, I notice that (not all, but most) of the fans that like Dan and Emma seems to like Harry and Hermione and same for fans that like Rupert and Emma rooting for Ron and Hermione. Its just really interesting to see that.
I am going to say however even though I do root for H/Hr, and if R/Hr do turn out to be together, the books are still great and Rowling is amazing. Just keep in mind that Harry Potter is "fiction" afterall, (though I really do believe the fact that magic and stuff do exist"
TheBalrog86, that was a great post! Keep in mind we only know half the story about who may end up with who.
I think the strange romance in HBP served two purposes:
If I am right, Book 7 will rock all of us and I hope the OotP movie is released before the book is or a large number of people won't go see it out of anger at the shipping. The article was a good one, which is why I hope Ron is the one who helps bring his two best friends together. Ron has been suspecting something going on between the two of them for a while now--and I wish he would quit interrupting them...LOL!
I think the strange romance in HBP served two purposes:
- To misdirect us (and the characters) from the clues in the story
- To show why H/G and R/Hr could not work
If I am right, Book 7 will rock all of us and I hope the OotP movie is released before the book is or a large number of people won't go see it out of anger at the shipping. The article was a good one, which is why I hope Ron is the one who helps bring his two best friends together. Ron has been suspecting something going on between the two of them for a while now--and I wish he would quit interrupting them...LOL!
Well, is there any faultiness in JK quotes about R/Hr like the stuff she says " ya, its r/hr, thats it, ive dropped a big anvil sized, bla bla bla". Though i would prefer h/hr, i see no evidence because of JK's quotes. Misdirecting us sounds a bit vivid.
| QUOTE (joejoe @ Oct 2 2005, 04:34 PM) |
| Well, is there any faultiness in JK quotes about R/Hr like the stuff she says " ya, its r/hr, thats it, ive dropped a big anvil sized, bla bla bla". Though i would prefer h/hr, i see no evidence because of JK's quotes. Misdirecting us sounds a bit vivid. |
LIke I said earlier, I never really paid any attention to her interviews until I learned about the uproar about the MN/TLC interview. When I first learned about it and read it, I understood why people were upset, but then I read other interviews she had done and saw her misdirect and evade direct answers in them. Keep in mind, we never actually heard the interview and everything we read was second-hand.
After running her words, not the interviewers', through my head and corollating it with what I had read, I realized the interviews were too blinded by their shipping biases to really see what she was saying. Think about this: R/Hr never happened in the book--all they did was begin to treat each other better at the end, nothing else. Now compare that to JKR's answers to the interviewers--she used them to avoid a direct, acurate answer and they were too biased to see it. JKR is not going to give away her plot points, so that is why I will ignore her interviews as I have done in the past.
Another fact: After all of the possible 'ships she sank on her website, she never sank H/Hr...go see for yourself. It could be a simple marketing ploy on her part, but it could mean anything is possible. If HBP sank any 'ships, it would be the slash and SS/HG ones (although they are still hanging in there!).
I reread the sixth task Harry and Hermione had to do in PS/SS and that was where I got the idea (along with the adult HBP book cover) that maybe Snape was the HBP (I almost squee'd when I saw I was right!). I wish I had the time to see if what happened there showed what would happen in HBP. One thing is for sure, that task demonstrated Harry does need Hermione and vice versa.
Wow, is this thread getting active! Ok, so still the same people, but many many more posts!
I agree with you guys! J.K Rowling stated that she didn't want to give away anything major from the plot and yet she states that there is 'more tension' between R/HR, and hints little clues about them.. untill finally basically saying that it is R/HR If J.K Rowling doesn't want to give anything away, why would she give away the anwser to the All Time Shipping War between R/HR and H/HR? She wouldn't! Well, I certainly don't know but.. I don't think she would just expose it like that, do you?
So.. maybe Jo isn't really exopsing the plot, because R/HR aren't going to be 'together together' eh? lol!
-Dominique
Ok, so still the same people, but many many more posts!I agree with you guys! J.K Rowling stated that she didn't want to give away anything major from the plot and yet she states that there is 'more tension' between R/HR, and hints little clues about them.. untill finally basically saying that it is R/HR
If J.K Rowling doesn't want to give anything away, why would she give away the anwser to the All Time Shipping War between R/HR and H/HR? She wouldn't! Well, I certainly don't know but.. I don't think she would just expose it like that, do you?So.. maybe Jo isn't really exopsing the plot, because R/HR aren't going to be 'together together' eh?
lol!-Dominique
Westerly says it all ...
| QUOTE |
| But as I became more and more involved with debating, it suddenly struck me how central this issue was. I really came to realise how completely differently R/H and H/Hr read the text and interepreted it. I was also confronted by how different our values and aesthetics concerning relationships were. And it was that huge and fundamental divide that made me realise that whichever ship sailed in wouldn't be a minor issue in the corner of the text - but would actually influence and shape what type of book we would get. |
THAT is my way of thinking exactly.
This is why I was devastated by this book, because it just crushed my faith in JKR, Seeing the way she is choosing to take the relationships in this book made me question her personally. Does she really think these are good relationships? Is this is good role model material for her young fans? I think about the little kids who are reading these books, thinking that these relationships are desireable. Truly I do. She had the chance to make the fantastic relationship of Harry and Hermione be the example to aspire to for all these kids and she chose not to. And I do believe that little kids will read these books and think that this must be what is normal for relationships because alot of them are really to young to have had any yet.
I would so have loved for her to have taken the high road.
Westerly also says...
| QUOTE |
| But I've never known Harry to look at Hermione with condemnation or 'disgust' - even when he was furious with her before their ill-fated trip to the DoM, Harry he was still able to recognise the warmth of her loyalty and her good intentions. So the sudden clinical coldness and judgemental nature of his gaze on her was jarring to me. |
I completely agree. I would like to add that something that I was surprised and concerned at was Hermione's jealousy and annoyance at Harry finally having success in potions. I can't believe that pre HBP Hermione would react that way to Harry succeeding or even surpassing her in potions. I realize that she was annoyed at him using the prince's book but I still don't think she would have been so ungenerous in her feelings towards him.
If we want to torture ourselves and find some GREAT H/Hr moments in the HBP I can tell you my favorites.
When Slughorn realizes that Hermione must be the muggleborn that Harry was talking about and quotes him saying that Harry said she was the best in their year, Hermione turns to Harry and beams at him saying "did you really say I'm the best in the year Harry? Oh Harry!" I about melted. It was particularly funny that Ron then pipes up that he would have said it if she'd asked.
And later when Harry was ranting about Snape talking about the Dark arts Hermione began comparing it with what he had said about fighting Voldemort and Harry was so stunned that Hermione would think something that he said was as worth memorizing as something from the standard book of spells. Very Lovely.
But the ultimate has to be when Hermione says that Harry has never been so FANCIABLE. Woo Hoo! That sounds like her personal opinion to me! I must be totally delusional!
| QUOTE (jewal @ Oct 3 2005, 12:34 AM) |
| And I do believe that little kids will read these books and think that this must be what is normal for relationships because alot of them are really to young to have had any yet. |
I agree, and sadly I also think the reverse corollary applies as well: kids believe this type of relationships are normal hence these ships (in this book HBP) are appealing. Pop culture has really done a number on everyone. Perhaps, among the affected is the author?
Actually, Westerly, I do think revisitation of a "bad book" has its merits. I remember way back when I had to read J.D. Salinger's The Catcher in the Rye in high school. I thought that book was awful and boring. Revisiting that book as an adult, I find my new experiences and perspective helps me to really understand and enjoy the story. I read through the HBP to make sure it really was "bad". I gave it a month, then tried again.
Yep, it's still frustrating. Back then, I wasn't mature enough to appreciate the central character's growth (Holden). Perhaps, in time, people will re-read the HBP and appreciate how completely these relationships derailed. Meanwhile, I look forward to the HBP's screenplay. The screenwriter certainly has a mess on his/her hands. Not an enviable job.
Here's hoping for a continuation of H/Hr.
H\Hr they are only friend they dont even think about that!!
But they are really good friends.
If Harry ever loves he would not say to Krum in GOF that they are not in love.
MOD EDIT: Hey there; please read the ships rules, all ships threads are for supporters only. Obviously you don't support this ship. I suggest you try out our Venom threads. Thanks, Mason.
But they are really good friends.
If Harry ever loves he would not say to Krum in GOF that they are not in love.
MOD EDIT: Hey there; please read the ships rules, all ships threads are for supporters only. Obviously you don't support this ship.
I suggest you try out our Venom threads. Thanks, Mason.
I am more than willing to dissect the HBP H/Hr relationship or personalitites piece-by-piece either here or via email if anyone is willing after I see GoF. Anyone want to join me?
More than likely, either H/Hr happens or the trio all remain single in the next book. I so hope Krum is at the wedding...that would be interesting!
More than likely, either H/Hr happens or the trio all remain single in the next book. I so hope Krum is at the wedding...that would be interesting!
I was just wondering if anybody wanted to read a very brief Harry/Hermione bit I wrote up...I'd really appreciate the feedback, and as it's you lot who turned me back from a Sibling Theory groupie to a diehard Harmonian, well,
http://www.veritaserum.com/forums/index.ph...t=0#entry110882
http://www.veritaserum.com/forums/index.ph...t=0#entry110882
Hey everyone! *waves*
Did anyone see the new edition of VTM on Air this week? Ughh.. half of it, well the begining was R/HR! Hmm... a little biased don't you think? Ah.. oh well..
Heehee jewal, yes those were some good moments.. dreamy.. lol! But.. I dunno, I just think HBP lacked something.. for me, I really didn't like Harry exploring all Voldemort's memories.. I just found it a waste of time.. I didn't not like it, because it was all rite but it maybe could have been cut down a little..
That's just my opinion.. H/HR to the end though! <3
-Dominique
*waves*Did anyone see the new edition of VTM on Air this week? Ughh.. half of it, well the begining was R/HR! Hmm... a little biased don't you think? Ah.. oh well..
Heehee jewal, yes those were some good moments.. dreamy..
lol! But.. I dunno, I just think HBP lacked something.. for me, I really didn't like Harry exploring all Voldemort's memories.. I just found it a waste of time.. I didn't not like it, because it was all rite but it maybe could have been cut down a little.. That's just my opinion.. H/HR to the end though! <3
-Dominique
| QUOTE |
| I am more than willing to dissect the HBP H/Hr relationship or personalitites piece-by-piece either here or via email if anyone is willing after I see GoF. Anyone want to join me |
I'm in (though I'm wondering if the movie is just a deadline or if you want to discuss the characters on the basis of TGoF movie? If it's the latter then I'm not sure I'll be much use.
)I hope that you decide to do it here in this therad, which could surely use a good discussion.
| QUOTE |
| I so hope Krum is at the wedding...that would be interesting! |
It's time to for Vicky to put in an appearance I say. (Though if I know anything, it might be an excuse for a certain red-head to go ballistic.
)Circe - I read your fan-fic. While I actually find a lot of H/Hr fics clunky, (sad to say) I enjoyed yours. I'll don't want to get in trouble so I'll put up a small review there.
at Corpus_Agnelli's post - I will revisit HBP in good time. And as a major 'Catcher in the Rye' fan (as in, it's one of my favourtite books ever ) I'm glad that you decided to read it. I'm still frustrated over the lack of structural analysis of HBP - I mean analysis tha goes beyond mere preference and actually examines the way in which the plot is structured and how the writing hinges. I probably don't read enough editorials, because I'm sure that this issue must be central.I find it interesting that there are a lot of people who comaplin about how much time shipping takes up in HBP, with little reflection as to why this might be the case. (To me, it is clearly a structural issue, rather than one of mere preference.) There is also a wholesale blaming of 'shipping' but little willingness to identify that *cough, cough* specific ships influenced the tone of the language, the course of the narrative, and even the plot. The third argument that I often encounter is that the 'ships' were not handled well or portrayed convincincly anc could have been written about a lot 'better'.
Closer examination leads me to question if this would have actually been possible. (I'm really not so sure that she could have written them any other way these days....) I'm also wary of the claim that JK "simply cannot write romance" - she had no problems with relaying Harry/Cho (who were convincing) so it begs the question of what went so wrong in HBP? (In the past, people may have complained about the actual Harry/Cho pairing, but they didn't complain how about badly written it was, or how it was portrayed. Funny, that.)
I also find the cry against shipping kind of odd and it makes me wonder - do readers not realise that for five books, they were reading books that were founded on a relation'ship'? A ship that was so well written, that it gave them absolutely no cause for complaint? As a poster identified earlier in this thread H/Hr are the Mulder and Scully of HP. No engagement between the two - no series.
| QUOTE (Circe @ Oct 4 2005, 11:38 AM) |
| I was just wondering if anybody wanted to read a very brief Harry/Hermione bit I wrote up...I'd really appreciate the feedback, and as it's you lot who turned me back from a Sibling Theory groupie to a diehard Harmonian, well, http://www.veritaserum.com/forums/index.ph...t=0#entry110882 |
Circe, please do continue this story. It certainly held my full attention. But then again, I am an avid H/Hr shipper!
So, you're a "die hard Harmonian" now? I hope that you NEVER change your mind. And, please don't go back to believing in the sibling theory. I read the threads where people thought that Harry and Hermione were sibs, but, I just couldn't accept the rationale. I hope that JKR doesn't make them into sibs either, because then we wouldn't have H/Hr, would we?!
Besides, I just can't see Jo pulling off a 'Star Wars' scenario. That would be well, ... like plagerism.Anyway, please do continue your story. I love what you have written so far!!
Yes, I think so. It's just, I like the Sibling plotline and it would be "second-best" if a Harry/Hermione romance didn't happen in Book Seven, because at least then there would be an airtight reason WHY those two didn't get together romantically, but I would so much rather read about (and write about) them romantically.
Anyway, glad you liked the bit I wrote up, I really appreciate the feedback.
Anyway, glad you liked the bit I wrote up, I really appreciate the feedback.
It's harry's decision
MOD EDIT : I'm not sure whether this is supportive or not - it should be, seeing as how this thread is very strictly for supporters only. In any case, short posts and one liners are not allowed on the forums. Please re-check the rules - you've been here for long enough to know this by now.
MOD EDIT : I'm not sure whether this is supportive or not - it should be, seeing as how this thread is very strictly for supporters only. In any case, short posts and one liners are not allowed on the forums. Please re-check the rules - you've been here for long enough to know this by now.
| QUOTE |
| I also find the cry against shipping kind of odd and it makes me wonder - do readers not realise that for five books, they were reading books that were founded on a relation'ship'? A ship that was so well written, that it gave them absolutely no cause for complaint? As a poster identified earlier in this thread H/Hr are the Mulder and Scully of HP. No engagement between the two - no series. |
Hear, hear! That's an excellent point.
| QUOTE |
| I find it interesting that there are a lot of people who comaplin about how much time shipping takes up in HBP, with little reflection as to why this might be the case. (To me, it is clearly a structural issue, rather than one of mere preference.) There is also a wholesale blaming of 'shipping' but little willingness to identify that *cough, cough* specific ships influenced the tone of the language, the course of the narrative, and even the plot. The third argument that I often encounter is that the 'ships' were not handled well or portrayed convincincly anc could have been written about a lot 'better'. |
Aren't a few Harry/Ginny shippers even conceeding that the development for Harry/Ginny was a little too...not there? It really came out of the blue for me. At least the Ron/Hermione 'ship had some pre-existing canon basis, we saw Ron's attraction to Hermione at least. If Harry/Hermione happens in Book Seven, I think it will be a slow realization rather than Harry having a roaring monster leap out of his chest.
TWO DISCLAIMERS
My username has changed, from Circe to Herminia, which is what it was on the other forums. *shrugs* Just so you know.
*If anyone's interested in a longer Year Seven Harmony piece, check out the link in my sig*
This should bring a smile to some of you. I found The Evil Overlord List Copyright 1996-1997 by Peter Anspach and #98 is particularly interesting:
If an attractive young couple enters my realm, I will carefully monitor their activities. If I find they are happy and affectionate, I will ignore them. However if circumstance have forced them together against their will and they spend all their time bickering and criticizing each other except during the intermittent occasions when they are saving each others' lives at which point there are hints of sexual tension, I will immediately order their execution.
If an attractive young couple enters my realm, I will carefully monitor their activities. If I find they are happy and affectionate, I will ignore them. However if circumstance have forced them together against their will and they spend all their time bickering and criticizing each other except during the intermittent occasions when they are saving each others' lives at which point there are hints of sexual tension, I will immediately order their execution.
Fantastic Nymphe! That describes H/HR and R/HR perfectly. That made me laugh and reiterated my faith in Harry and Hermione, so thanks.
I read a phrase once (I can't remember where) and it always makes me think of H/HR.
When something is so good, we refrain from changing it for fear of ruining it altogether. But if we let that fear overwelm us, we've already lost the chance of that something so good becoming something so great!
I read a phrase once (I can't remember where) and it always makes me think of H/HR.
When something is so good, we refrain from changing it for fear of ruining it altogether. But if we let that fear overwelm us, we've already lost the chance of that something so good becoming something so great!
Heehee Nymphe 
Ooh, I see most of our Shipper's travelled over to the Venom H/G Thread.. But anyways, I have a little bone to pick.. I may have said this before, but I will say it again.. two 'not so little' points bother me.
1. H/HR Footage in the upcoming movie, GoF
-Ok, since when have Harry and Hermione have this much interaction? Oh right, in the books! But to tease us with an excessive amount of H/HR is well.. cruel.. Jo even told us in her interview that.. Interviews.. Which brings me to my second point.
2. Interviews with Jo herself
-I'm not going to quote here, because I forget where to look for the interview.. but.. since when does J.K Rowling just spoil the surprise and basically tell us that it's R/HR? Since when, does Rowling give away the question to the biggest shipping war? Her 'subtle' hints, are far too obvious, and I think she realizes that, her fans do aswell. Revealing if H/HR get together or R/HR is like finding out if Voldemort dies.. Ok, so shipping isn't that important.. but that doesn't mean it has to be spoiled..
Anyways, for me, there is something J.K Rowling is hiding.. What do you guys think?
-Dominique
Ooh, I see most of our Shipper's travelled over to the Venom H/G Thread.. But anyways, I have a little bone to pick.. I may have said this before, but I will say it again.. two 'not so little' points bother me.
1. H/HR Footage in the upcoming movie, GoF
-Ok, since when have Harry and Hermione have this much interaction? Oh right, in the books! But to tease us with an excessive amount of H/HR is well.. cruel.. Jo even told us in her interview that.. Interviews.. Which brings me to my second point.
2. Interviews with Jo herself
-I'm not going to quote here, because I forget where to look for the interview.. but.. since when does J.K Rowling just spoil the surprise and basically tell us that it's R/HR? Since when, does Rowling give away the question to the biggest shipping war? Her 'subtle' hints, are far too obvious, and I think she realizes that, her fans do aswell. Revealing if H/HR get together or R/HR is like finding out if Voldemort dies.. Ok, so shipping isn't that important.. but that doesn't mean it has to be spoiled..
Anyways, for me, there is something J.K Rowling is hiding.. What do you guys think?
-Dominique
Since when you say...since she did that interview, which gave away the ships. DUH
Dominique, that is what I been trying to tell people! Look at her past interviews and you will see it. joejoe, check out my signature and go look at the HBP at the end. You will see it for yourself.
I believe WB will play up the love triangle--remember the extra R/Hr moments in PoA.
I believe WB will play up the love triangle--remember the extra R/Hr moments in PoA.
Hi joejoe
PLease respect other members. Their personal opinions are as good as any other's. Also, elaborate more in future posts. One-liners are not allowed. If you aren't an H/Hr shipper, please don't post here. All ships threads are for Supporters Only, unless the contrary is stated.
If you need anything, contact a Mod or Prefect for help.
PLease respect other members. Their personal opinions are as good as any other's. Also, elaborate more in future posts. One-liners are not allowed. If you aren't an H/Hr shipper, please don't post here. All ships threads are for Supporters Only, unless the contrary is stated.
If you need anything, contact a Mod or Prefect for help.
| QUOTE |
| MA: How much fun did you have with the romance in this book? JKR: Oh, loads. Doesn't it show? MA: Yes. JKR: There's a theory - this applies to detective novels, and then Harry, which is not really a detective novel, but it feels like one sometimes – that you should not have romantic intrigue in a detective book. Dorothy L. Sayers, who is queen of the genre said — and then broke her own rule, but said — that there is no place for romance in a detective story except that it can be useful to camouflage other people’s motives. That's true; it is a very useful trick. I've used that on Percy and I’ve used that to a degree on Tonks in this book, as a red herring. But having said that, I disagree inasmuch as mine are very character-driven books, and it’s so important, therefore, that we see these characters fall in love, which is a necessary part of life. How did you feel about the romance? [Melissa puts her thumbs up and grins widely while…] ES: We were hi-fiving the whole time. JKR: [laughs] Yes! Good. I'm so glad. MA: We were running back and forth between rooms yelling at each other. ES: We thought it was clearer than ever that Harry and Ginny are an item and Ron and Hermione — although we think you made it painfully obvious in the first five books — JKR: [points to herself and whispers] So do I! ES: What was that? JKR: [More loudly] Well so do I! So do I! [All laugh; Melissa doubles over, hysterical, and may have died.] ES: Harry/Hermione shippers - delusional! JKR: Well no, I'm not going to - Emerson, I am not going to say they're delusional! They are still valued members of my readership! I am not going to use the word delusional. I am however, going to say — now I am trusting both of you to do the spoiler thing when you write this up — [More laughter.] JKR: I will say, that yes, I personally feel - well it's going to be clear once people have read book six. I mean, that’s it. It’s done, isn’t it? We know. Yes, we do now know that it's Ron and Hermione. I do feel that I have dropped heavy - [All crack up] JKR: - hints. ANVIL-sized, actually, hints, prior to this point. I certainly think even if subtle clues hadn't been picked up by the end of “Azkaban,” that by the time we hit Krum in Goblet... But Ron — I had a lot of fun with that in this book. I really enjoyed writing the Ron/Lavender business, and the reason that was enjoyable was Ron up to this point has been quite immature compared to the other two and he kind of needed to make himself worthy of Hermione. Now, that didn't mean necessarily physical experience but he had to grow up emotionally and now he's taken a big step up. Because he's had the meaningless physical experience - let’s face it, his emotions were never deeply engaged with Lavender - |
I wonder about that "romance is used to camoflage" quote...what does she mean by that? She could mean that romance isn't as important as we're making it out to be OR she could mean that the romances we SAW in HBP weren't what they seemed (and they seemed nauseating
) What about Ron maturing to be with Hermione...? Ron needed another girlfriend - a MEANINGLESS physical experience - before he could date Hermione. Hermione had Krum, Ron had Lavender, Harry had ... who, precisely? I don't think Cho counts. They kissed while she was weeping her eyes out, they had a disastorous date at Madam Puddifoot's...so who's Harry's "physical experience"? Ginny? Seems like it to me. If intends to pair up Harry and Hermione in the next book, then this may well be the way to do it. They have attractions (Hermione -- Ron, Viktor, Harry -- Cho, Ginny) and realize that love is more than mere attractions and tensions.
I have a hard time believing that she would lay her entire plot (love-wise) bare in an INTERVIEW. Wouldn't it be like her to mislead a little - let Melissa and Emerson believe that Ron/Hermione and Harry/Ginny are set in stone, when they may not be?
Ah well, if it doesn't happen in canon, Harry/Hermione can always be a AU fan fic; a beautiful delusion
I just hope that the romances in Book Seven - whatever pairings exist - will be written and portrayed in such a way that they can be embraced by everyone.
I wrote this rant over at Portkey, so I decided to post it here as well:
The thing that depresses me about the anti-H/Hr shipping as it currently stands is the attitude that people who seem to favor these ships have towards certain items past writers have used in the past:
Symbolism is dead unless it is obvious (like the color of Hermione's cat shows she likes Ron, even though the cat does not like him).
Subtleness is dead. God forbid if people slowly work their way towards each other maturely to form a decent relationship.
Intense displays of negative emotions are the norm and should be expected. Jealousy, bickering, challenging friendships, lust, ignoring, pining, etc. are all OK if the people like each other. Life is just a soap opera after all, right?
It is OK to assume we know what other people are thinking even if we never really talked to them on a deeper level. As the series stands now the most genuine (and maybe mature) people are Cho, Krum and Luna, IMO.
It is expected for men to be constantly brow-beaten and challenged by the women that they love. As often as Ginny has been described as a mini-Molly, Harry will be running for the hills after he awakes from his lust-induced stupor since he hates conflict. How long within book 7 will Ron and Hermione avoid butting heads over something stupid given their personalities?
Wanting the best for someone by words and actions is seen as parenting or telling someone what to do. I think the one thing I did like about HBP was Harry standing on his own as a growth experience. Hermione's character did not have to diminish for this to happen, but it did serve as a distraction for the reader and those who detest Hermione's hovering. One could argue that Hermione has treated Ron like an unruly teenaged son, moreso than Harry.
If a male and female are too close, then sexual feelings never come up. I guess my husband and I have done it all wrong being close friends and co-workers for years. Too boring? We must have passion in all of its forms for sexual feelings to be justified.
One must change one's self to become compatible with the person one is attracted to. This one ticks me off the most because that is the best way to destroy a relationship and a person. Some R/Hr shippers saw this with Hermione were unhappy, but the others who do not seem to care worry me.
I think I am done ranting for a while and I may not even make sense, but I just had to get it out.
The thing that depresses me about the anti-H/Hr shipping as it currently stands is the attitude that people who seem to favor these ships have towards certain items past writers have used in the past:
Symbolism is dead unless it is obvious (like the color of Hermione's cat shows she likes Ron, even though the cat does not like him).
Subtleness is dead. God forbid if people slowly work their way towards each other maturely to form a decent relationship.
Intense displays of negative emotions are the norm and should be expected. Jealousy, bickering, challenging friendships, lust, ignoring, pining, etc. are all OK if the people like each other. Life is just a soap opera after all, right?
It is OK to assume we know what other people are thinking even if we never really talked to them on a deeper level. As the series stands now the most genuine (and maybe mature) people are Cho, Krum and Luna, IMO.
It is expected for men to be constantly brow-beaten and challenged by the women that they love. As often as Ginny has been described as a mini-Molly, Harry will be running for the hills after he awakes from his lust-induced stupor since he hates conflict. How long within book 7 will Ron and Hermione avoid butting heads over something stupid given their personalities?
Wanting the best for someone by words and actions is seen as parenting or telling someone what to do. I think the one thing I did like about HBP was Harry standing on his own as a growth experience. Hermione's character did not have to diminish for this to happen, but it did serve as a distraction for the reader and those who detest Hermione's hovering. One could argue that Hermione has treated Ron like an unruly teenaged son, moreso than Harry.
If a male and female are too close, then sexual feelings never come up. I guess my husband and I have done it all wrong being close friends and co-workers for years. Too boring? We must have passion in all of its forms for sexual feelings to be justified.
One must change one's self to become compatible with the person one is attracted to. This one ticks me off the most because that is the best way to destroy a relationship and a person. Some R/Hr shippers saw this with Hermione were unhappy, but the others who do not seem to care worry me.
I think I am done ranting for a while and I may not even make sense, but I just had to get it out.
Excellent post, Nymphe.
So - if we optimistically assume that JK Rowling might break up the two couples she established in HBP in order to unite Harry and Hermione, how would she break-up Ron and Hermione?
So - if we optimistically assume that JK Rowling might break up the two couples she established in HBP in order to unite Harry and Hermione, how would she break-up Ron and Hermione?
| QUOTE (Nymphe @ Oct 9 2005, 06:07 PM) |
| The thing that depresses me about the H/G and R/Hr shipping as it currently stands is the attitude that people who seem to favor these ships have towards certain items past writers have used in the past. |
Not just writers, Nymphe. You can justifiably point the finger to the influence of TV and movies, though albeit TV has gotten "smarter". I, too, am frustrated at how common place these stereotypical attitudes are, but more importantly how writers will fall back on these formulae. Isn't it bad enough that kids think you're not in love unless there is friction, competition, and sexual tension through the movies? The hero falling for the girl and vice versa is trite because usually they have a superficial basis.
That is an obvious stereotype...so why do writers have to fall back on "other" stereotypes? They don't have too. But many justify these "other" stereotypes since it's not the obvious formula of "hero getting the girl".
...well, if the hero gets the girl in a way that real people relate and experience instead of what people think "it ought to be", then how is that stereotypical?
It's romantic to think that someone who never cared for you, never gave a thought about you except that your are annoying, judgemental and brainy, suddenly realizes there are feelings and something deeper between you two. Of course this is appealing: it gives females hope that behind that burlish hide of man, they can possibly like us. But this is not a relationship, because there is no meaning behind it.
...but it is easy to write. So why the cop out? Why, after fleshing out very full characters in a span of five books has the author (and much of the shipping world) laud this particular scenario? I doubt there is much misdirection on the part of the author. I suspect that even if she downplays any sort of relationships with the opposite sex, she won't want to lose her biggest flagSHIP by undermining her present setup.
After reading the final installment of another british writer's trilogy (amazing), I have to say that the 7th book ought not to have a heroic death lest it copies another excellent book. But, hey, who am I but a paying reader?
Guys, I'm afraid I'm going to have to ask you to please refrain from bashing other ships in here. Heaven knows I understand how you feel, really I do, but that's why the VENOM threads were created. Feel free to bash and vent all you like in the anti R/Hr and H/G threads, but this thread should really be kept just for discussing the H/Hr ship.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.