Here's my question: Why didn't Dumbledore ask Harry to translate what was being spoken in Parseltongue in Ogden's and Morfin's memories? As far as we know, he would have been unable to understand what was going on since the majority of dialogue in each memory was spoken in Parseltongue. We know DD has studied LV very carefully, and wouldn't have been content not understanding what was discussed in the Gaunt's house in those two memories.


This opens up a few interesting questions. Can Dumbledore speak Parseltongue? Did he get somebody else (not Harry) to translate the memories for him? Or did JKR just forget to explain this little detail...

Please post any thoughts you have!

intresting

i dont think that Jo made a mistake.

as far as i know, DD cant speak parseltongue. in the books, only Harry and LV can. its also possible that he had other sources, but i really havent got a clue what it colud have been.

Excellent catch, Persimmon and PhoenixFeather!

Well, maybe it's something that one can learn, after all, DD can also speak and understand mermish (the language of the merpeople.)

Yes in fact that is a good one

I guess DD can perhaps hundertand it, partialy at least but cant speak it. And this bring a interesting fact do you realy hear people speaking in the pensive or you browse their thouht?

This would imply that, it more of interpreting idead and not looking at a simple movie. It is after all a memory...

I don't think Dumbledore could just "understand" what was being said in the Penseive because it was a memory. I know exactly what you mean, but it does say that when Harry tried he could make out the hissing sound that was being made - so it was apparently audible.

Upon rereading it is clear that Dumbledore is fully aware of what is going on in the memories, although we obviously still don't know if that is because he can understand Parseltongue or because someone translated it for him previously. I don't think that DD would have shown the memories to very many people. I was also under the impression (though it is never explicitly stated) that Parseltongue is something that cannot be learned or taught. DD has learned Mermish, I know, but Parseltongue wasn't even mentioned as being in Mr. Crouch's repertoire.

I actually have a hunch that Harry will lose his ability to talk to snakes when Voldemort finally dies (if Harry is still alive), but that's neither here nor there I guess.

I was under the impression that parsaltongue is the ability to SPEAK to snakes. Meaning, you can hear them and then reply back. I think Dumbledore might be able to understand snakes, but I don't think he can talk back, only parsaltongues can do that.

We've seen that Sirius Black understood crockshanks, and DD can understand Fawkes, so being able to understand what an animal is saying may not be that rare in the wizarding world. Being able to reply to them in a way that they understand is, however.

thats what i think anyway

Mmm... but if it's possible to understand Parseltongue without being able to speak it, then how come there aren't more wizards who are able to understand it? There are many instances in the books in which people have spoken Parseltongue and no-one else (wizard or Muggle) has been able to understand. Ogden clearly had no idea what Morfin was saying to him ('get out' was a pretty explicit command), and Ron, Hermione, Justin Finch-Fletchley, and all of the other Hogwarts students failed to understand Harry at the Dueling Club in CoS. You'd think that even if the ability to understand Parseltongue (but not be able to speak it) were a rare gift, at least one of the students present when Harry 'attacked' Justin would have known what was going on. Granted, they might be afraid to admit it....

I also doubt that it's possible for a wizard to teach himself to speak Parseltongue. Communication with animals seems to be a little different from communication with people, so I think it might be a bit of a gift that few people have. I know you're probably thinking that the merpeople are non-human, like snakes, but even a person who does not speak Mermish (e.g. Harry, Cedric, etc.) is able to hear them in English under water, so that gives me the idea that it is possible for a wizard to learn the language of part-humans.

I personally have no idea how Dumbledore originally understood what Morfin, the Gaunts, and Riddle were saying in the memories. I actually was wondering about that while I was reading HBP just a few minutes ago, and I came onto VTM to look for a thread to discuss it. I guess my contributions to this conversation aren't very valuable, since I'm not really adding my own theories but simply shooting others' down. My only idea is that Dumbledore did not actually know exactly what was going on in the memories before Harry watched them in the Pensieve, but due to the characters' actions and reactions to one another, he was able to wager a pretty good guess as to what was happening. I mean, when I watch two people talking in a foreign language, even if I do not understand their words, I can still tell whether the mood is angry/tense/etc., and these are probably the sorts of scenes in which Dumbledore would be interested.

Maybe ir is something that is not easily understood. Maybe it takes extreme discipline to teach yourself to understand Parseltongue. Dumbledore has beedn studying Lord Voldemort for like 50+ years so maybe he had to teach himself how to speak it.

Or is it possible that Dumbledore doesn't know how to speak it and he was just sort of interpreting what was going on by studying body language.

I dont know, I would have thought that if DD didn't understand PT then he would have asked Harry to translate for him while they were looking at the memories together, either that or someone else had already done that for him.

But it seemed inferred that he did understand what they were saying. So it probably is quite possible to understand it if you are particularly intelligent and focased as DD is, yet not be able to speak it. Being that it is a series of hissing noises it might take 'the gift of PT' to be able to wrap your own tongue around the precise pronounciations and emphasises?

Maybe it's something we will never know...

I think that DD did under stand in GOF we see he could talk to the mer people and who knows what else or to which other creature he could talk to he was as old as 150 had enough time to research everything

so im sure he knew other wise he would of askes or JKR would of made harry ask him

I guess my contributions to this conversation aren't very valuable, since I'm not really adding my own theories but simply shooting others' down.

Not at all, Anthony Goldstein! You made some very good points!

You convinced me that PT is not something that you can learn... you either know it or you don't. It's a gift. I wasn't thinking of the merpeople as being half-human, and forgot that you could hear them in English under the water. If people who speak PT don't understand how they can, like Harry, it's unlikely that they can teach others to understand or speak it.

I do think that DD understood, though, because I'm pretty sure he wouldn't be showing the memories to anyone else, especially to be translated, when he could ask Harry about it. I understand your point about inflection and body language, but he seemed to understand the situation more than that.

Well i do think that Dumbledore can speak Parsletongue, because he seemed to know was being said in Gaunt's house. However if he doesn't speak Parsletongue, perhaps someone may have helped him fiugre it out, and I think it could have been Snape. We all know Snape has great dark magic now, so Parsletongue could be another one of his gifts, and didn't want anyone else to know. And afterall Dumbledore trusted Snape for reasons that no other wizard knew about.

Well, I'm not to shure about my theory, but if Dumbledore didn't know Parsletongue, some had to have explained it to him earlier before he showed the memory to Harry!

My quick two cents - maybe DD cast a spell on himself of understanding Parseltongue, once he realized that's what the people in the memories were speaking. The effects would be temporary, and he wouldn't be able to speak it himself - and if he'd seen the memory before showing it to Harry he'd know he'd have to have the spell in effect to understand what was going on.

As for learned vs. unlearnable languages - I think human-like languages can be learned (merpeople), but animal communication languages are a genetic talent (parselmouth). Or in Harry's case, part of Voldemort's power passed into him.

maybe when someones speaks in PT in a memory it can be heared by other people even though they don't have the gift of talking in PT. because when Morfin talked in PT for the first time Harry though he was speaking normally until DD pointed out for him that he wasn't. so after Harry knew about PT in the memory he could hear the hissing noise that Mr. Gaunt made when he spoke, but only because he all ready knew that it was PT.

Good thread, I had wondered the same thing actually, briefly. I think he probably cast some sort of enchantment, or took some potion or another, so that he could understand it. It seems like the most likely explanation.

Wow! I never really thought whether or not Dumbledore could speak parseltongue (sorry about the spelling). Nice catch! I don't think that Dumbledore showed anyone else the memory in order to have it translated for him because no one else needed to see it. If he did need it translated then he would have asked Harry. If he had showed someone else then dont you think they would have been curious as to what he was doing with that memory? Plus, who else does Dumbledore know that can speak pt and would be willing to translate it for him? I think that he just had a general idea about what was being said. I agree with Anthony Goldstein in saying that if Dumbledore could understand it but not speak it then other kids at Hogwarts would have been able to understand as well. You need to be born with the ability to talk to animals, it isn't something that can be learned or taught. I agree that Harry had to try to hear the sounds as oppose to the words....therefore making it near impossible to teach. he probably did just have the jist about what was being said but I guess I still don't understand why he wouldn't ask Harry to confirm the fact that he was right. I also wonder why Harry never asked Dumbledore how he understood what was being said or if he did.....Though I'm sure he would have told Harry if he could speak it a long time ago. I guess I wasn't much help.....sorry!

If DD can speak/understand parseltongue, how come he didn't hear the basilisk in COS? (Sorry I don't know if someone already stated this...) I mean, Harry hears the basilisk as he's walking down the halls, wouldn't DD also hear it if passing through? It seems like a stretch to me... He would have had to had someone translate it for him... interesting thought though

I agree with most of what yall have said - unfortunately though we're not a whole lot closer to figuring this one out. I don't think that Parseltongue can be learned either - good point about animal vs. human languages - nor can I think of anybody whom DD would have been able to ask to translate the memories for him. Knowing DD, however, he wouldn't have been content just reading the body language of the Gaunts to deduce what was being said. He would have done the thing properly.

This is just one of the many many small details that I hope JKR comments on in the seventh book. I just don't see how she's going to squeeze all this stuff in though.

This is a great topic. I too wondered how Dumbledore knew what Morfin and Marvolo were talking about in the pensive. But then I was thinking that Dumbledore went to Morphin to obtain his memories. Dumbledore, knowing that the Gaunts were heirs to Slytherin, I'm guessing that it's possible that Dumbledore had Morphin interpret his memories. Or, is it possible that Dumbledore was able to use legilimency to obtain a translation?

i never really thought about that before...

i think possibly that dumbledore can speak parsle toungue, but didnt let too many people know it because it is veiwed as a dark trait and maybe he didn't want other people to look down on him for it

I agree with Corijp, or at least ask the question, can you use legilimency (sp) in a memory from the pensieve? Perhaps DD didn't have to understand parseltongue as he could actually see what they were thinking. I'm re-reading that chapter now, but he doesn't actually quote any of them when talking to Harry does he? Perhaps he just knows what's happening by reading their thoughts?

I dont think that DD can speak parsel tongue. But maybe he can just figure it out a little bit.

well dd said he did do a lot of guessing to figure out what all these memories meant so the smart guy he is he probably figured what was goin on through the appearance of tom riddle senior and the reactions by all the people in the memory

perhaps when dd was originally retrieving the memory, he asked morphin to explain what was going on. morphin was in a weakened state if i remember correctly, veritaserum would have worked well.

what do you think

i thought morfin only spoke parseltongue i don't remember him speaking to anyone in normal language in HBP. tell me if i'm wrong.

if he could then he would have spoken to Ogden in english when he realised that he couldn't understand him.
also how would dumbledore have persuaded him to give up the memory when he went to see him if he could only speak parseltongue. if this is the case dumbledore must be able to speak it too.

I am also on the bandwagon that Dumbledore could not speak Parseltongue. I think that DD could understand the gist of the message of the memory, but he needed Harry to truly understand all details. I think he used his legilimency ability on Harry and understood the true meaning of the memory through Harry. That is why he needed Harry. It was two fold, DD needed Harry to be there to interpret the memory and also to understand where DD was going with his theory.

That my two cents as well.

I don't think that Dumbledore could speak Parseltongue. In Bob Ogden's memory it was pretty clear what they were saying from their actions and most of that was in English. The other memory was Morfin Gaunt's and he understood Parseltongue. I think that if the memory came from a Parselmouth, then anyone could understand it.

I always got the impression that Parseltongue could not be learned and was something that you were born with. I doubt even DD could have learned it. If DD had known Parseltongue, then in #2 he would maybe have been able to prevent some of the basilisk attacks. At the very least, he'd have been at the scene of the crime sooner.

Tonks100- in the chapter "The House of Gaunt" morfin spoke both parseltongue and english.

I believe that Dumbledore couldn't understand exactly what they were saying. He could however, sense that there was a lot of tension, and he could also understand what the wizards were saying when they spoke to the ministry wizard. Those clues, Dumbledore's brilliance, and perhaps hours of examining the memory over and over could have made Dumbledore quite confident that he had interpreted the memory correctly.

I was actually pondering this while reading the book. I say I have to agree that DD isn't a parselmouth. It's not like Mermish, you are born with the talent of speaking parseltongue. And we all know that DD was a Gryffindor, correct? Well...the hat was pondering putting Harry in Slytherin because of the characteristics he inheirited from Voldy. Anyways, I think that DD either didn't bother to translate anything or he was using Legilimency to understand.

Remember how much bad press Harry got when Rita Skeeter published the fact that he was a parselmouth? What about DD? Everyone knows that he's done good things but quite a few people think he's a raving lunatic. It might go against him if people found out. Plus, it's not something you can keep secret, is it?

thanks for the reference Merlins Beard that puts my theory down the drain. it was the only argument i had for dumbledore speaking parseltongue and i guess i have to grudingly admit that it was more likely he couldn't speak it.

he cant speak parsel because he asked harry if he understoodt it .
then harry checked that that what they say was parsel i dont think he can
jk only hasnt mention it...

It is extremely weird. We cant possibly know if he did speak it, but he probably did because he speaks Mermish and he was able to explain Harry everything on the Gaunt memory. But how could he learn it? Also I dont think he would have made someone translate it, of my knowledge, the only persons that know about those memories and the Horcruxes are the headmasters in the potraits, Harry, Dumbledore and only suspecting about the Horcruxes, Slughorn.
What I can deduce is that Dumbledore learned to speak to snakes. I mean he is Professor Albus Dumbledore, no one in here can possibly imagine or comprehend even a little bit of what Dumbledore can do or what his powers are.
Dumbledore in my opinion will always be the greatest wizard in the world, ever.

I do think that Dumbledore IS a parselmouth, he had a well-organized theory in his head, way to earlier than when he shared it with Harry. He knew Merope was Voldemort's mother, he knew about the ring (he destroyed at the beginning of HBP), he knew everything that happened in that memory, he just shared all the memories with Harry so he could help him to retrieve Slughorn's memory.

On the other hand, i don't think that he was born with that ability. Don't you remember that Dumbledore has a scar of his own? Yes, the one in his knee, with the shape of London underground...

What if Grindelwald made him that scar? Wouldn't he transferr Dumbledore some powers too? It's a fact that Dumbledore fought him and maybe Avada Kedavra is not the only curse that produces scars. (Anyway, JK said that sooner or later we will find out about that scar).

Dumbledore's office is in the seventh's floor, and the chamber of secrets is under the dungeons. Even being a parselmouth, it's a little difficult to hear something that's happening 7 floors below.

From Argentina,

Diego

Hello everybody,

I am quite sure that DD can not speak Parsltongue as if he could HP2 would not make much sense.
We would not have to wait for Harry to find the Chambre of Secrets and defeat the Bazilisk - DD could have done it if he spoke PT.

DD who is the Greatest Wizzard could not find the chamber and open it because he could not here the Bazilisk neither ask the chamber to open itself.

I hope this makes sense to you guys. please let me know if you agree.

thanks
sash

Not necessarily. DD was MANY floors above the basilisk, up in the tower in his office. Harry could only hear it when it was in the walls nearby. Unless DD came down and walked the halls just when the basilisk came out to kill, he wouldn't necessarily have heard it. Harry on the other hand, was in those halls during change of classes, and on his way to and from detention, so he had a much better chance of hearing it. He and the others were also around the chamber opening (in and around Myrtle's bathroom) without even knowing it while preparing the polyjuice potion, again, giving Harry more opportunity to hear it than DD.

Hello, Faizova, and welcome to Veritaserum (VTM)!

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By the way, on the subject of Parseltongue -- even though Dumbledore speaks many languages, I'm not sure that he speaks Parseltongue. Would he not have mentioned it when Harry said that only Dark wizards speak Parseltongue? On the other hand, he seemed to understand at least some of it to get the information he had from Ogden's memory (HBP).
Perhaps he understands it but cannot speak it ...

its a good question ... but i think that it is possible that parceltongue is like any other language; it can be learned and it can be taught. parceltongue may be a tricky one to learn though ! but dumbledore is pretty clever as we know ... so who knows ...

i belive that parseltounge as well is a language that can be learned but if your not born with it then it will take alot of time to learn it, and in my opinion DD is the perfect choice for that, it would not surprise me if he could speak almost any language.

Well, this is a difficult one, if DD can speak Parseltongue, why didn't he hear the basilisk in Harry's second year? I dont know, maybe he could've learnt it in the past few years, he is so smart, I waouldn't put it pass him. But I think that could've been the case, but I'm not sure. As I said, this is a hard one!

P.S. My 100th post! Yay!

Many people have incorrectly noted that only dark wizards speak Parseltongue, and that the only reason Harry knows it is because the ability was transferred from LV during the curse.

DD tells us himself in HBP, that this is wrong, and practically admits that he speaks Parseltongue himself. He has never been modest, and would easily consider himself among the great mentioned below. I love him, but he definitely knows how great he is and is willing to tell others about it

This what I love about Harry Potter books and the whole wizarding world. There are infinite answers! It's not like physics or maths or biology where you can check in a book.

All we know about Dumbledore's way of thinking is that it is completely different from anyone else's. We learn something knew about him in everything he does. (That should have been "learnt" and "did", sniff...) Anyway, he's bonkersly clever and knows so much about magic that it had to hurt.

Harry said in OotP that he was sure Dumbledore would be able to send messages that could not be intercepted etc. I'm pretty sure he had ways to understand almost anything, including Parseltongue.

Just by the way, I think it's off topic, but does anyone have ideas about the name Parseltongue. I can't figure out what it's origin is (tongue i know, but parsel-?), and it might give a clue to the nature of it - and who could understand it.