Vincent, i agree with most of what you say. Espically the end.

But,

I'm going to move this topic to the 'Just get away from Life' forum. It is more suited to that area and I am sure you will recieve more comments there.

razz

War can't always be avoided. There are always going to be allies and enemies. The reason US troops are in Iraq and Afganistan is because there are still terriest on the loose. I know that there is no way that we can abolish terriest in the world but to give them a hard time doing it is worth it. Take the most recent bombings in London. I think that is enough proof that everyone should support the war.

Cantwait, if the troops there now just pulled out now all heck would break loose. Thats what happened in the first gulf war. Bush pulled out just a few months after capturing Bagdad. If Bush pulled out now, Sadam's henchman would take over and all of the fighting would have been for nothing. And haveing Iraq occupied does not mean that a lot of people are in poverity and have diseases. I have many friends over there right now and they tell me that if there was no bombs going off, life would be good for the Iraqies.

i don't think war can be avoided either, no matter what beleifs we have.. there are always going to be other countries who have an entirely different beleif system... like, look at alquieda terrorist group, one of their main goals is to kill any people who beleive in a free country, now they are going to start a war because they want most americans and some britans dead... and if they attack us first, of course we are giong to attack back..

although there is alot of other polictical theories about pearl harbor, i don't want to get into them, but we joined WWII (UNITED STATES) becasue japan attacked us, and i don't think any country is giong to let that happen with out retaliation

War, hmm,i'm torn. Yes, i believe that some wars, though horrible are necesarry. The revolutionary war was necesarry. We as a country felt that we needed to seperate outselves from t he British government. We fought for our freedom and our lives on our soil.

Same with the Civil War. To better ensure the quality of life for the citizens of America we had to end slavery. Again we fouhgt on our soil ot better our iives.

I take it though this topic is on the current war. Maybe i just grew up surrounded by the remains of hippies from Vietnam. Or had some fanastic liberal teachers in school. I'll never know, but i spent almost my entire sophmore year of high school protesting this war.

This "Operation Iraqi Freedom" is to me the making of a secong Veitnam. I respect everyone who syas this is a necesarry road to our safety but it's not. People were scared after 9/11. We thought that terrorist organizations were in possession of Weapons of Mass Destruction. The United Nations decided to send over a team to look for these weapons. Guess what? they never found them. Bush (i'll try to be nice about our Commander in Chief as the Patriot Act dictates i must) went against the UN rulings and commited treason agaisnt them. There are rules of combat that countries follow. We as america are supposed to be an icon that lead other countrioes and follws rules. Persecutes countries that fail to comply. And we basically told the rest of the world we were going to do what we wanted.

So bush sent hundred's of thousands of troops to Iraq. I've lost friends. I've had friends come back who will never be the same because they had to kill someone. Thirty troops died last month alone. Remember the whole armoreed car fiasco? How the soldiers had to use sandbags becasue their vehicles were not properlly protected. Guess what. those materials are sitting in a wharehoouse in Iraq. The military says that can't pass out these materials becasue there is no system of command set up to do it.

Thousands of Iraqi children are dying everyday. We have a kind of bomb that we drop on teh ground, when enemy vehicles roll over them they blow up. A contact bomb. It's wrapped in bright yellow packaging. When the UN sends food releif packages they also drop them from air onto the ground. These packages are in the same color. so when INNOCENT children are going to get food to keep them from starving, they are blown to pieces.

I think someone said that if we pulled out now everything would go to hell. Thats ridiculous. Since our occupation began major corporations have moved in to occupy the areas. They are setting up plants to manufacture their goods in another area of cheap labor. They say they are going to offer jobs to the Iraqu citizens. Ya they will. But there also going to be taking away jobs from American's in order to get a better profit from their merchandise. These corporations hire thousands of "mercinaries" to work for them. These mercenaries are retired soldiers or just soldiers who's tours are over. For alot more money than the military pays they make sure that the cities are safe.

I just want to point out that still We have found no weapons of Mass destruction. Almost four years later. We have no idea where Osama bin LAden is. To be frank, were never going to find him. He's smarter than us. He knows that land. He can stay hidden. And even though were fighting there, countries are still feeling terrorist attacks. London just had one. So whether we're there or not he is still going to continue with his plans.

In my mind we need to be worried more about North Korea. Who's leader has basically said "haha i have tons of bombs and their all pointed at you duba-ya".

If anyone didn't guess by now, i voted for Kerry

Overall, I agree with Ygraine and keeperstar. Sometimes war is nessicary, but you only should have war then, when it's nessicary. I mean, not becuase you're scared, or anything else like that. You shouldn't go looking for trouble, wait until it comes to you. One country doesn't rule the world. And this coming from an American. Okay, that's just what I think, no yelling at me.

Hi there littlexoxlotte,

There is no need to post Ygraine's entire post. what's the point? If you want to respond to it, simply add something like 'with reference to your post Ygraine' or pick out the bits you wish to respond to and only quote them.

Also there is absolutely no call for attacking another member, by all means disagree with Ygraine but you've no right to tell anyone they don't know what they're talking about because they disagree with your views.

There is a very strong case for the argument that America and Britain may have based some of their decisions for going to war on the fact that Iraq contains the second largest (I think) oil deposits in the world, behind the kingdom of Saudi Arabia (again I think).

The American and British oil companies are undeniably profiting from the Iraq war as big multinationals such as Shell have moved in and taking all the large oil contracts. This of course is going to create speculation over the war as there has been very little to suggest that Iraq ever had weapons of mass destruction, Saddam Hussein may have aspired to create them but there was absolutely nothing to suggest that these desires ever made it to the level development. The war was not sanctioned by the UN which *should* be the only authority which can make that decision.

The bottom line for me on the Iraq war is that the so called 'collateral damage' has been immense. When 90% of the people who die in a war are civilians I think it is impossible to justify.
Saddam Hussein needed to be removed but there had to be a better way of doing this, sending in UN peace keepers or to take the lead from the real people who have to live in Iraq and actually ask them what help they need, IMHO would have been better options.

I've said it once, and I'll say it again. I don't care why we went into Iraq, I'm just glad we did. What Saddam Hussein was doing was genocide, and that's not ok. What I don't understand is how can someone support the American Revolutionary or Civil Wars and not this one? Don't the Iraqis deserve freedom the same as us?
Also, we are definitely not benefitting from the war in oil prices. With gas prices reaching record highs, even just this summer, I don't understand the logic behind thinking we are benefitting.
Last, I don't think America rules the world, or has any intention of doing so. One of the reasons, I believe, why we're so powerful is that we've been free for so long, and we know that we can say whatever we want, and basically do whatever we want. Now, more countries can do that, but way back in the day, America was the place to be. And, I'd also like to say to whoever it was that said they didn't want to say how they felt about Bush because of the Patriot Act, that they can say it. You just can't threaten him, or anything like that. If you wanna say his face is too small for his head, then by all means say it... Seriously though, you can say what you want so long as it doesn't threaten his safety. That's what's so grat about America.
(In case you hadn't figured it out, I'm very proud to be an American)

Why is it that you all seem to think war is necessary. The revolution, was not necessary. If the British just granted the Colonists, permission to begin their own country, there would have been no need for war. But because the British did not we began one.

I mean look at Canada, during the Revolution, people who wanted to stay under the British control lived in, the Northern part of British AMerica, or in otherwords Canada. Canada still was under the the British Empire. While the AMericans were not. As time went on the British Canadians gained there independence, but there was no war. So again war is not necessary to get things done.

I believe the reason people think that war is sometimes the only way to solve things is because they believe if you fight, kill, and threaten you will get things done faster, and unfortunately that is true for most cases. Humans do not want to go through hours and hours of discussion and do not want to give up or negotiate with people and thats why we start wars.

The war in Iraq was not necessary, if Saddam had not let his counrty fill with terroists, then would we be there today? no, at least no for the reason, at the present time. (i know the reason why we invaded Iraq was because Saddam supposedly had weapons of mass destruction, but i am talking about the reason we are still there.)

First of all i take offense to your comment littlexoxlotte. I am about as democrat as physically able. I grew up listening to my uncle who wa around for vietnam and a hippie. I'm actually so left wing some people have gone as far as to call me a socialist. I'm not but, to each their own eh?

As for the oil discussion Souljacker is right. Oil corporations have moved into Iraq. And just because oil prices are going up means nothing. Iraqi citizens are blowing up oil reserves. They don't want us taking their oil. Plain and simple. It's their country, their reserves. Just because we as american's consume so much that we need to get it from other places is not their fault.
I agree the reason we went to iraq wasn't for oil. But if you think that it wasn't an incentive i would love to know what information your reading.

Just an update the death toll for American troops for this month is 45. I would love to know what the Iraqi death toll is, but unfortunatly the government won't let us know...

cantwait i see wher you are coming from. I hate war. But sometimes i will understand it. But i'm sorry people are corrupt! Britian was banking on us. They taxed us unfairly and wouldnt let us govern ourselves! When we asked for freedom they basically laughed at us. What should we have done? twiddled our thumbs and said "they'll eventually let us have it?" They wouldnt have. As long as they were getting a big enough cut they didnt care. We wrote the decleration of independance. they still didn't care. What other options were there?

I don't hate Britian at all, i love it. Please anyone from there don't get offended. It was hundreds of years ago.

This war we are currently in is terrible. we need to leave now. as soon as possible. Not to mention what it's doing to our national debt

Cant wait, the only reason Britian let Canada have their independance is because they were afriad of another revolution. They gained from this situation. they didnt want to lose again.

What do you propose our government does about North Korea? We know they have weapons of mass destruction. We know they have a huge wall with sharp shooters on it who shoot and kill anyone approaching. What would be your course of action?

Your banking on humanity to realize we're all messed up. That major corporations will realize how terrible they have been. That evil leaders and terrorists will stop. They won't. Your ideals are there, and i agree with them. But thats a socialist world. And we don't have one. Mankind is greedy, malicious, vindictive, and doomed. We have no hope. I appreciate your fervor and hopefullness, but it's not going to happen. People will still continue to do what they think is in their best intrest.

Ya, slavery could have been abolished. But southern plantation owner's were getting too big of a profit to let it go. They didn't care about the slaves' rights. In their minds they had baught and paid for them. They were property, like an animal. The north viewed them as people who had rights. There were two sides.

The world will never be perfect. Everyone will never get along. Yes war is terrible and wrong. No one here is saying it's an awesome thing that we should do every day. We just realize that life's not perfect. and people are going to fight for what they beleive is right. whether you agree with it or not.

However, Cantwait, the person was proving that the reason why Britain let go of Canada was because of the American Revolution. I actually don't know really anything about Canada's independence...so, I'm just going off of what Secretkeeper was saying.
Another thing is, that Iraq isn't the only country that controls their oil. What I mean by that is that OPEC controls all the oil in the Middle East, and if OPEC doesn't want us to have it, we can't have it, and that's what our problem is. So even if they planned to get oil by invading Iraq, we still don't get it because OPEC won't let us have it.
And, I forgot to point this out earlier. Just because there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq when we got there doesn't mean that there wasn't any before. It's possible they got all of their weapons out of the country before we invaded, and personally, I believe that that's what did happen.

Ok sorry, but what gives us the right to say who can and can't have weapon's of mass destruction! Sure they had weapons i dont care. The circumstances the freakin United nations gave the Iraqi government is that they would be invaded if they DIDNT destroy those weapons. thats why we sent in the team. And yes they did destroy them like the UN told them too. Bush invaded against policy! They did what we asked, they passed the inspection. Bush went in becuase he had another agenda!

Almost every country had Weapons of mass Destruction. We do! should someone come and start a war on our soil because we have them? Of course they had those weapons. Every country is stupid not to. It's called protection. Ever heard of M.A.D. Mutual assured destruction. If one country sets of a missle, fifteen will send one back as retaliation. If one mass destruction weapon is sent off we're all gone.

I could give two hoots if they had weapons. If the governmetn really wanted to go into every household in America they would consder us all threats. You know how many bombs you could make off gasoline and bleach? You culd kill your entire neighborhood!

Did you know there are country's who aren't even allowed to have bleach to clean their water? So thousands of children a year are killed because the U.S. of A make them drink contaminated water? i've said it once ill say it a million times. The world is not black and white.

To quote Harry Potter (since that is this forum) "The world is not split between good people and Death Eaters" or something along those lines

I think our right to living gives us the right to decide who has weapons of mass destruction. Saddam Hussein wasn't exactly a big fan of the US, and I would certainly not feel safe if he still had them.

This is driving me nuts! we are not blessed by god just because we are american! I do not approve of Saddam, but all you people are telling me that we decide who can have bombs! What about the lives of Iraqi children we killed as "collateral damage". What about their right to live?

He wanted those weapons to protect him and his country. So in case we went all crazy he could have that protection. When we asked him to disband them he did! and we still invaded and killed thousands of people!

Secretkeeper i agree with you. The Korean situation scares me to. I have been much more afraid of a North Korean attack than i ever was of an Iraqi one. If we as a government decided to end troops over there it would be for a purpose. Although it would turn out like Vietnam. Guerilla warfare would eventually mean another hard, long, and maybe unsuccesful war.

Yes, America is that last superpower. But what gives us the right to bully all the other countries? Japan is not not allowed to have a standing army past a certian number (i beleive, correct me if im wrong). We have stunuted the economic growth of so many countries who knows who else could be a super power.

I will never say Iraq didnt have WMDs. I'm sure they did. But as i keep saying, they were told to dismantle them. And they did. Bush lied to us. Plain and simple. He said there were WMDs. I"m glad to see blair is up for impeachment. Maybe we should swing a little of the impeachment over to this side of the big pond...
We went to iraq on deception and lies. Some of my friends have died on the lies of someone who they thought would lead them fairly.

I love America, i just think our leaders are corrupt. I love the ideals that America was founded on.

Here's a thought. Every superpower nation has fallen. China, Egypt, Rome, Britian. Are we next?

Ygraine i apologize. i never meant to imply there was anything wrong with socialism! it's ideal are commendable! i think that many socialist concepts should be blended with democracy in order to give a better quality of living to the entire world. Especially in the business area.

it isn't an issue of america deciding who can have weapons of mass destruction, it is that we had intelligence reports that Saddam had links to alquieda, and most americans and britons would be dead if he did have weapons of mass destruction becasue alqueda has been trying to take us all out for years...

and do you really want alquieda in possesion of weapons of mass destruction>

Well then why did Bush tell us the Iragi government did? and guess what we still have not found those weapons! we still have not found Osama Bin Laden. How many more people have to die before we realize we won't. All those weapons are out of Iraq by now. Al Quida is not stupid. They left the country so they wouldnt be found.

ok the mayor of chicago has basically admitted being linked to mafia and gang leaders. Should we attack chicago?

Edit: as for most britian and American's being dead... i dont understand what you mean? Do you think its a coincidence that the london bombing happened? NO! they were attacked becasue they allied with America! My friend almost died that day! he was in England for a Clavin Klein modeling shoot. He was supposed to be on that train, but stopped into a store to buy something to drink. Im so thankful he did, otherwise i may have lost hiim.

Us being in Iraq just made Al Quida madder. Not to mention the whole fiasco in the jail. Of american troops doing terrible things to the prisoners. Of course there going to retaliate? didn't we when we invaded? I feel more unsafe now then after 9/11. We have ticked off so many countries, its only a matter of time before we get whats coming to us.

MOD EDIT : Gentle reminder - cussing isn't allowed on the forums. I know it wasn't a huge one, but all the same... I've edited it.

keepstar1331 i never said that the london bombing was a coinsidence, so please do not put words into my mouth.. i am not an idiot and i know why london was bombed

the mayor of chicago should be put out of office then if he has links to the mafia..

we have not found anyweapons, becasue, like i ahve stated many times before, we gave iraq 6 MONTHS NOTICE before we went in, so they had time to get rid of the weapons


as for " I feel more unsafe now then after 9/11" that doesn't really makes anysence because this height of alquida hate towards us was inevitable. so if your so scared then stay cooped up in your house


and i am not going to keep arguing with you, because you are a socialist and you will never understand what i am saying, so lets be mature and "just agree to disagree" in the words of bill oreily

Now, see...this is exactly why threads on religion, politics and moral issues give the mods such a headache here.

*sigh*

Look, guys - it's quite simple. You behave, you express yourself politely and without being confrontational and aggressive or your threads get locked, you get an official warning and after three of those, you can wave goodbye to Veritaserum. So it's up to you.

As it stands, I don't like the way this thread is going.

If you can't express yourself without being rude, then don't post.

There is a difference between confrontation and debate - there's a thread explaining that in the archived threads forum.

An example of a good debate is between myself, Beethoven and QQS in the religion and bible threads - we have extremely different views on very different subjects, but we are polite, respectful and we're all still very good mates so I suggest that you take that as your example or else I or one of the other mods will be pulling out a nice big shiny lock tomorrow. Up to you.

I agree with what Dana has said above, we all need to keep this a FRIENDLY debate even if we disagree with someone. I for one do not want this topic to be locked because I know and liek expressing my views on this topic.

The Iraq goverment had 6 months to HIDE or get rid of their WMD. This is just a theroy of mine because I think a country that is power-hungry enough will do anything from destroying them.

Back to N. Korea, they are the most secretive country in the world. They let few people in and out. They focus on military to run a country instead of economy. If they hadn't told us that they had WMD, we may have never known that they possesed any of them.

Also a country that scares me is Iran. They were kinda put in a difficult sitution to chose what side they wanted to join. They posses a strong military as well and have the 2nd best Airforce in the world. If anything upsets them and if the US goes to war with N. Korea, which I hope won't happen, then they can easily join up with N. Korea. That is 2 powerful countries that are very stern and offensive.

Dana~ so sorry. i did not even know i had typed that, to be truthful i don't even remember what is was...Also i know i've been getting a little snippy, i promis to tone it down *hangs head in shame*

I never implied you were an idiot! i actually never would. I think your points or valid. I just said what my reading and teachign has taught me. I'm just saying that in my opinoin thats why the london bombings occured. i did not direct it towards you personally at all.

Yes, we give them six months notice. And yes they may have hid them which is also a valid point. But that course of action is the law that the collective countries of the United Nations agreed on. They were given that alternative so they would not be invaded. A team of proffesionals went and searched for those weapons.

Secretkeeper again i agree with you Iran is a country that could possibly attack us at anytime. If Iran, North Koera, and China joined forces we would be in the grips of another world war. That thought terrifies me.

Just because im scared doesnt mean i will stay in my house. I'm just saying that this war has not elevated my sense of security as Bush intended it to.

Also i am not a socialist. If you had read my post a few back you would know i said i was not. I'm very liberal, but that has nothing to do with socialism! and i do take it offensivly that you have decided not to debate this subject becasue you think i am. Where would the world be without opposing opinions and views? very boring i believe...

I have to say that it is hard to imagine that some people actually have the nerve to say that we went into Iraq just for the oil. No, people who say that are just either looking to make a joke that is very bad, are unaware of the situation, or are just trying to make Bush, Blair, etc. look bad.
I take offense to the oil statement. You can disagree with Bush, hate him, whatever, but there is no way that we went into Iraq for the oil. Sure, if you want to say that Bush didn't look at all the evidence about WMDs and he made a huge mistake, or he didn't really say his real reason which was just to get rid of Saddam, you can say those things if you want. I don't have to agree, but those are actual possibilities. Saying that we went there for oil is just plain ignorant and you're disgracing all of those lost in Iraq.
That's almost as bad as saying Bush is the same as Hitler.
Bush is not an evil dictator looking for oil to up the economy even if it means costing plenty of lives. He's just not.

About war in general, I think that it can be necessary at times, and avoided at others. However, I said this before, just because it can be avoided, doesn't mean it should be. Sure, The Revolutionary War could of been avoided if we wanted to live under tyranny, and sure the War in Iraq could have been avoided, but now people over there are much better off in my opinion, and that is surely up for debate.

Well as one of the people 'with the nerve' to suggest that oil may have been a factor in the war of Iraq I, on a personal level don't like the insinuation that I am some how ignorant of the Iraqi war or making a bad joke very well. I don't for one second expect you to agree with me or anyone else who suggests this but I still don't appreciate this insulation.

As someone (I think it was keepstar) pointed out there are no actual tallies on the civilian causalities in this so called war on terror' which IMHO is an absolute disgrace. We have given you our reasons for why we believe this is the case, and I don't for a second believe that anyone here is suggesting oil was a factor for either of the reasons you have suggested.

Now as a moderator I have to remind you that you are not allowed to attack people in this way, you can not suggest that we have out opinions because we are ignorant or making a bad joke, it is insulting and completely disregards our right to participate in such a debate.

Louise has already given one warning on this thread, consider this the second one, if I see one more person attacking anyone personally on this thread (with regards to any side of the debate) it will be closed (in the words of madam Hooch) quicker than you can say quidditch.

For people who say war is necessary and then later say it is wrong and devastating. I think that is a very hypocritical statement. And I say that because you are saying that at times it is ok to kill (and in most wars people end up murdered, slaughtered, and hurt). I don’t know if you are really going to understand what I am saying, but hopefully you can get it. Whenever someone says that, all I can think of is, this is the way those who start the war in the first place think. Apparently some people think that the only way to solve certain issues is through war, and it is just like saying I think murder and stealing are necessary at times, but they are wrong and it should not happen. How many people think that murdering someone is necessary at certain times? I bet not many people on this board think that, but it just makes me kind of feel sad that humans can think this way.

Well, anyways, I also want to say, in no way am I calling anyone on this board a hypocrite, it is just that statement that I am reading over and over again that is hypocritical.

Alright, whatever. You can play circles around it, but just because I said something directly instead of inferring it like everyone else around here, I get a talking to. That's fine. I did not insult anyone personally, nor did I want/mean to. I was insulted by Ygraine's first post, simply because she took something that is known to be false, and I'm not talking about Oil being a minor reason, but she said that the reason we went into Iraq was for the oil, meaning that that was the only. That is not only wrong, that is insulting and I take it personally. If someone insults my country by mistaking it for an evil nation looking for a better economy, you can bet I retaliate. And, I do apologize to you Souljacker for generalizing in my post, I was really only talking about Ygraine's post. If you think that one of the minor, or many reasons for that matter to go into Iraq was for the oil, then fine by me. Perhaps this thread should be closed. It does bring out the worst in everybody. I do apologize if anyone gets mad at in a personal level, I really do, because that is not why I am intending to do.

Ok this is starting to get out of hand. Rude comments and direct insults will not be tolerated and then this topic will be closed. I for one don't want it closed. There are those people who agree with you and some that have different views, but don't insult because they don't agree with you. Since this topic is most likely going to be closed this will be my last post on this topic.

War is not good and can't always be talked out of. There are some leaders that think they can take on anything and are the most stuborn of people. I think Bush idd do the right thing, he gave Saddam 48 hours to leve power and he didn't leave so we went in and did it for him. Bin Laden is the most wanted man in the world. He will always be that as long as he lives.

I hope the attitudes get better in here and I for one do not want to be a part of something that is disrespectful. So PLEASE respect others.

Vincent :

Vincent I'm so sorry! I didn't mean to insult any one *oooh i feel so bad*

Please forgive me!

However, it is common knowledge (in Britain at least) that they sexed up the dossier which meant we could go to war. So therefore, this was an illegal war. That, i'm sorry to say, and i don't want to annoy any one, but alas we cannot diguise the truth, is fact.

whether or not the world is better off without Sadam (which it probably is) isn't, in my book, the cause of the matter. he wasn't any threat to us (as western civilitation)

Unfortunaly, the fact that Saddam was an evil man to his own people was never really brought up that much during the war. If that had been the main reason why we invaded (to get rid of saddam, because of what he was doing to his people) then perhaps i would have been a but more optimistic about it. Again, unfortuantly, you cannot take a country to war because of that.

however it wasn't, we invaded because of WMDs that weren't even there, they didn't find any. Thousands of innocent Iraqi's died, as well as hundreds of soliders, and what did we gain from it?

Nothing, just bloodshed, and a life of fear.

This war, generally speaking, has done more harm than good to us, Because it was linked to the terroist attacks in London, where more people are dying, and now our country is living in fear.

What I meant was that there were plenty of reasons that may have been false or not, (WMDS, him torturing his own people, him as a threat), so I can't really see how people put it together that we went in there to raise our economy with oil. But, I feel bad about how I posted what I said. Iraq has been a horrible thing, as with all wars. I won't deny that. It is awful that so many innocent people have died. That is why I felt a bit angry when people starting talking about a rumor that we went in there just for the oil. I suppose it just got me mad. I was wrong, I'm sorry. Everyone does have their right to their own opinions. Again, everyone, sorry again.

I'm going to have to agree with Vincent on this issue. While I do feel it unfortunate that current events brought us to a state of warfare, I do feel that it was justified. I do understand some people's attitudes about oil, especially those who have lived through Gulf Storm. This time around, it is different! We are after terrorists. Bottom line. We will seek out anyone/country who we believe to either be linked to terrorist organizations or who contain WMD. I understand that there are some who feel that Sadam wasn't a threat, unfortunately, he was a threat; to his own country and to mine (US).
On another note, I have to say I'm proud; I mean, take Afganistan for example. A country where women were oppressed for decades. They were as good as slaves and were kept ignorant(uneducated). Now, things are getting better for them. Same with Iraq. Look at the sheer numbers of voters who turned out to vote in the first election. That was greater than the voter turnout my country saw in our last election.
Again, I'm just stating my opinions, and I feel this just might be another issue to just agree to disagree.

After a great deal of discussion amongst the moderators, we have arrived at the decision to lock all of the real life issues threads. It is not a decision we have made lightly.

On behalf of all the moderators, I would like to sincerely apologise that this action has become necessary, but we all feel that there is just no choice.

This is primarily a Harry Potter Forum and although we do have this Just Get Away From Life forum for you to discuss whatever you would like to, we all feel that many of these threads are becoming out of control, nasty, personal and are detracting from the spirit not only of Harry Potter, but of this site as a whole and are moving us away from the reason we all came here in the first place.

We foster a pleasant and friendly environment here and have worked very, very hard to maintain that through our rules, but we really feel that these threads are doing far more harm than good. I am very aware that some of you posting here have been PM'ing each other, thinking that the moderators won't see you being abusive, but we always get wind of these things and this has been an additional reason for our decision.

We really don't mean to be stepping on anyone's fun here and we do feel very sorry for those of you who truly enjoyed the debates, but unfortunately, these threads have just caused far too much hassle, have taken up way too much of our time behind the scenes in sorting out problems and this has taken us away from where we need to be - mediating the HP discussions. Unfortunately, it just appears that, try as we might, we cannot get everyone to understand the difference between debating and being aggressive and confrontational and I'm afraid that we just don't have the time to devote to these anymore. All these threads do is create tension, animosity and arguments and that just isn't conducive to the type of environment we're trying to maintain here.

Again, we apologise sincerely that this has become necessary, but we really hope all the contributors here will understand.

Please don't PM the moderators about this - our decision was unanimous and final and we won't be retracting it. Also, please do not create any more threads like this as they will be closed down and the rules will very shortly be changed to accomodate this new decision.