Hi Zazu Yen,

I really enjoyed your post, very inciteful!

I'm totally with you on the good and bad issues of Snape note being so clear-cut. Obviously everyone is capable of doing bad things including the hero of the story Harry. Clearly though every character of the book has a leaning, most of which are very obvious.

Good: Harry, Hermione, Ron, DD etc.
Bad: LV, Belatrix, Lucious etc.

The most interesting characters are those who could fall on either side, Snape, Narcisa, Draco etc any of which have the ability to change there path and help one side above the other.

Personally I'm routing for Snape to do the business and save the wizarding world. He'll probably never be seen as the hero that Harry is but who said that life was fair?

i think that dumbledore knows that snape would have to kill him if draco and agreed on it...may that's the reason the reason why they were both arguing when hagrid overheard them.

i think that snape is still on dumbledore's side and not on voldemort's. the fact that he didn't let anyone, even his self, hurt harry could be a prove that he's still an ally of dumbledore. as for me i don't interpret it as reserving harry for voldemort but protecting him from any possible harm without spilling out his true alliance. (i mean he could hex harry and tell to voldemort he's just defending his self if his true intentions is to go back to the dark side.

i also have some theories about why dumbledore still trusts snape...
first i guess they perform an unbreakable vow...something about not going to the dark side again. but i guess that's lame since dumbledore as for me isn't a kind of person who'll do that in order to trust someone.

second is that snape is in love with lily evans. (anagram: severus snape - pursues evans) according to dumbledore, snape's greatest regret is telling voldemort about the prophecy...he(snape) never thought it would have something to do with someone he knows. maybe that's the reason why dumbledore still trusts him...since he believe that the greatest power of all is the power of love. maybe that's the reason why snape hated james because james had lily...he hated sirius because he's james' bestfriend...and he somewhat loathed harry since he looks like his father but never really hurt him because he's lily's son. when harry pointed out that snape doesn't care about lily being killed because he called her a mudblood...he missed the fact that maybe snape is just hiding his feelings about lily and that he's pissed off of james bullying him. aside from that one incident, snape never spoke of lily again (as of what i can remember) and only told harry about the bad things his father and godfather do...

with that i still strongly believe that snape is betraying voldemort. when dumbledore pleaded to him, it doesn't mean that he pleaded for his life but for snape to do what's right. the hatred on snape's face could be interpreted the other way around...it could be hatred for dumbledore because he's ordering him to do something he doesn't want to do (killing him) or hating his self for killing the person he doesn't want to kill.

on chapter: spinner's end, snape's hand twitched when narcissa asked him to do voldemort's wish if draco can't do it. it could be a sign of hesitation...but he agreed to it so he would not have to reveal his mission for the order.

snape also helped harry a lot of times...on dumbledore's order or not. even on his fight with harry he hinted him that he must practice the occlumency in order to beat him even voldemort (although it's in a form of mockery)..

hehehe...

i said a lot of things...well those are my theories why i think snape is betraying voldemort and not dumbledore...

Well done, Zazu Yen, well done indeed! That was a most insightful post, and one which closely resembles my own opinion/feelings about Severus Snape. I definitely think that he will be shown to be on the "good" side in the end, even if he harbours somewhat less than congenial sentiments for some of his fellow Order members... As you pointed out, he knows Lord Voldemort must be dealt with, but doesn't ahve to like everyone in the order to believe this.

Seekerssnitch: Interesting thing, that anagram... I must admit I tried many of the names in many anagram programs but none had proper names included, so I didn't come across that one... Interesting...

In my mind, I cannot help but feel there was some kind of attachment between Severus and Lilly, whether mutual or one sided. I'm starting to wonder if it isn't Snape's intervention which allowed Harry to be secreted away from Godric's Hollow so quickly after the events of that fateful night...

Cheers!

Hi,

in first place I think that Snape is a traitor. But also that Dumbladore knew it, maybe he thought that dead was the correct. First, because between Voldemort and Harry always was he, and second because Dumbladore always said that he don't fear the dead, on the contrary of Voldemort.

Att: Fuensant

P.D: Sorry for my grammar

Talking about anagrams, if you change letters in "Snivelly", there is an interesting twist Have you already known what I'm talking about or I should give you a hint? (this anagram I'm talking about also points out at Lily and severus connection).

I think DD knew about the connection whatever it was, whoever was in love then (I suppose Snape or maybe even both) and he didn't tell Harry about it. Snape would be furious if DD told Harry!

Some really great insights. Thanks!!

I didn't read all 24 pages of this post. However did read most of them and didn't see mention of 3 questions I asked myself when I finished the book... just last night !

1. After drinking 10 goblets of the potion... did Dumbledore know that he was dead already ?

2. When Snape sees Dumbledore is it possible that he knew even his skill as a "potions master" could not save him? And that Dumbledore's "pleading" was not only to protect Draco, but possibly for Snape NOT to try to save him? Had Snapes potions been keeping him and his withered hand alive thus far... I truly believe that Snape would have been able at a moments glance to tell that even he could not save Dumbledore this time.

3. But the ending of this book really bothers me. And it has to do with the exclusion of Fawkes. Why didn’t Fawkes come for Dumbledore in the cave. He came for Harry, Ginny, Ron and Lockhart ?

Phoenix tears have healing powers and it can carry immensely heavy loads... so Fawkes could have possibly healed Dumbledore then carried both Harry and Dumbledore from the cave to safety.

This is either a unfortunate oversight on JK Rowling's part or it may mean that Dumbledore intentionally staged his own death. We know that Tom... sorry I won't allow him the dignity of calling him LV... just because he wishes it... fears both Death and Dumbledore above all else.

But if it was a "staged" death... why would Fawkes lament ?

I like Snape. I hope he is Dumbledore's double-edged sword, and that he is allowed some glory in the end. However, Dumbledore admitted to Harry that when he made mistakes they were "huge". This could mean too that he already knew that his trusting Snape had been a mistake.

Just some thoughts...

In the first movie there is a scene between Snape and Quirrell. As we harry fans know Voldemort was sticking out of the back of Quirrell's head. Well Snape tells Quirrell "When you've had time to think about where your loyalties lie." I now think that Snape was not referring to Quirrell's loyalty to Dumbledore as I previously thought, but to Voldemort. Since in Half-Blood Prince Snape is a spy for Voldemort instead of Dumbledore. Therefore making me really believe that snape has been on voldy's side the whole time. Then again you know I could just be imagining things,but anything is possible. Tell me what ya'll think. If i;m a whacko or if maybe someone agree's with me.

hmmmmm, i must say that this is very difficult indeed. At first, when i finished HBP my whole mind was simply screaming "I hate snape, how could he!" and it wasn't untill coming back into these forums that i woke up to the fact that maybe there is a little more to this than meets the eye. Then, after some serious thinking and reading the first few pages of this thread, and reading other editorials on mugglenet, i was almost convinced on Snape being good. (Now i want you to know that i am in no way biast with this because i actually want snape to be on the bad side). But now, after reading the book again, i find myself at a crossroad. I must say that i am completly undecided. There is so much evidence for snape being good, but then there are some swinging facts that might very well make him bad. Lets look at this properly...

Snape on the good side

1) I believe DD might very well be dying from his hand. Harry mentions quite often that DD is looking extremly tired and pale, and i think this is one of the reasons. Of course old age and overwork are also factors, but i do believe that he was dying, gradually. Probably part of the reason that DD was in such a rush to teach HArry everything he knew about LV's past and the Horcruxes.

2) The fight in the woods at first glance, seems like snape saying that he had enough of the double role and DD telling him that he had committed himself. On second analysis though, you could look at it that, DD had ordered Snape to kill him when the time comes and Snape decided then that he didn't want to do it. DD was ordering to Snape, telling him that he had to.

3) seeing as DD was going to die anyway, and assuming that Snape had told DD about the unbreakable vow, DD would feel that he might as well get Snape to kill him so as it would save both Malfoy's and Snapes lives in the prosess.

In any case, i won't carry on with this, basically because, in reading through some of this thread, it is quite obvious that the majority of you feel that Snape is good, and that you are quite aware of the evidence of Snape being good. There fore, let me move on to some facts that might contribute to snape really being on the bad side. But before i do i must say that i like the idea of when DD was drinking the potion, he saw what would happen if he didn't die, which made him scream out "KILL ME".

Snape on the bad side

1) In that conversation in the woods that Hagrid overheard, Hagrid says that DD mentioned something like "Snape needing to make investigations in Slytherine house." now i must say this line confuses me. It sounds like what DD was really asking was to start doing something productive with Malfoy. But then why didn't DD say that flat out rather that be evasive. Maybe he didn't want to be overheard, thats always possible, makes me wonder why they were having this conversation int he woods anyway. Or maybe Hagrid really did hear them talking about MAlfoy and he obviously didn't want to mention it to the trio. But i didn't imagine Hagrid with that sort of flair when telling untruths. It all sounds very shifty and by the look of things, we can't make too much out of this scene. It depends way to much on "what if's" But lets try it anyway.
"What if" DD was talking about Snape trying more succesfully to stop malfoy. Then DD obviously wasn't feeling that Snape wasn't doing his job properly and DD felt that snape needed a good smack on the bottom so that he'd start putting all his effort into it. Maybe thats why the two of them were out there anyway? DD is very worried about the safety of all of the students, and Malfoy, so he is unsure what to do which might make him agitated and speak unfairly to snape. Since we cannot imagine DD telling off anyone like he seemed to to snape, or for that matter make anybody do anything they didn't want to do.
Makes you wonder whether they really were talking about this at all or the much more popular "you have to kill me or else." But lets say that DD was agitated and worried and these emotions made him act in ways he normally wouldn't act in. I do feel, even with all these "what if's" that my view on it sounds a little more plausable then the popular view, simply because of that last section "snape making investigations in his house" because why would that come up if all he was talking abou tis "kill me or else"

2) I was reading a bit a few pages back in this thread, and one of the topics was about at then end of the book how noone seemed shocked enough about the fact that Snape had killed DD. I admit, i felt a littlethat way too at the time, and still do. Most seemed more shocked about the whole episode, rather then who caused it. The only person that seemed really shocked was Slughorn. But then, i honestly doubt that DD would have confided in all of the teachers. Really, even the ones that weren't in the order? Madam Pomfrey for example, Professor Sprout...And Lupin seemed a little more harsh then others, yet he was in the order. No, i don't think under any circumstances would he confide in anyone other then Snape on the matter. I think the shockless feeling towards the matter arose simply from being competly "shocked" at loosing DD. AFterall they are funtional Adults here, and they know that they don't have time to worry about retribution at that very moment. Even Harry, a teenage male full of testosterone, wasn't at that moment keen on thinking about revenge. So i think that explains the peopls reaction to hearing about DD's death and who caused it.

3)My last point that i want to mention, because it is wat really wavered me, is that why, why did DD offer to look after MAlfoy, to protect him, if all he was intending to do that night was get killed by snape. Why give Malfoy that hope that maybe there was a way out when he was aware that it could not be fufilled because he was going to die in the next few hours. It would make Malfoy feel even worse for him to think that if only he had acted sooner, DD could have been saved and that he might at this moment be under DD protection, rather then living in fear with LV. I rebutted myself thinking that maybe DD had been hoping to save Malfoy of the guilt and horror of killing someone himself, so he strove to hold Malfoy up as long as he could until snape got here to do the job. But i do not believe that. I don't think DD thought for a seconde that Malfoy would end up doing it, so DD had no need to make false promises. This leads me to DD begging and the look of hate on Snape's face. I remember reading an editorial once, saying that perhaps snape was jealouse, jealous of DD love for HArry, and how Harry was always being told everything, got to go with DD on his little field trips. Maybe snape, through all his convincing himself to do that job he had signed up to do, had found himself in love (in a friend way, no homosexual, lol want to make that clear) with DD, loved the man that had taken him in, protected him and trusted him as no one had. Had even been his friend. And then Snape finds that Harry is starting to move in, move in where he isn't wanted. Snape gets jealous thinking that the son of his most loathed enemy, was moving in on his terratory. And then, when he went up to the tower with the malfoy and the other death eaters, he puts to and two togethor, and sees the two broomsticks and knows instantly what had happened. I can imagine snape thinking "what! you take him along and not me. you leave me behind, the one that can actually protect you!" He would feel so angry at being rejected, would hate DD for leaving him, that he could work himself into doing it. into killing DD. Into doing the job that he had known he must do because voldermort had ordered him to, but had come close to disobeyeing. But then we think, how could DD plead for his life like that. How could he be so weak? Well maybe he wasn't. Maybe DD saw that Snape had worked it out. Had known what was going on in his mind, so that he begged, "Please Severus, don't hurt Harry, leave him be, get them out before they realize he is there" and snape, with the guilt of what he feels after killing DD, gets rid of the Death EAters quickly,

After reading all the pro's and con's about whether Snape is good or bad, I find almost all of the arguements to be credible. Of course there are some that are just too far fetched to be believable. However there is one string that just twists my jangled nerves to the breaking point......Snape and Lily. It's obvious, in Snape's memory,(OOTP), that He had nothing but loathing for Lily, by calling Her a "Filthy mudblood".

My theory as to why Snape came to Dumbledor was the fact that James had saved his life from being killed by Lupin in the shrieking shack. Obviously Snape thought He had fullfilled His obligation to James by reporting to Dumbledor that Voldemort was on His way to kill Harry.

The fact that Snape kept His half-blood existence from everyone shows He is just as devious and arrogant as Draco. That may be the reason He likes Draco so much and shows special attention to Him over everyone else.

I think Snape is in reality out for Snape Himself and will show His true colors when the time comes. Maybe it seemed He was helping Harry on the grounds of Hogwart's, or maybe He was just giving Draco the time He needed to get off the grounds. It appeared He was just lording it over Harry to show Him that He wasn't anyone special at all. Just a stupid kid that can't control His feeling's.

I have always been an avid Snape is innocent person. Even after HBP, I still was grasping at the frail shread of evidence. However...

I reread Goblet of Fire this week, and I must say that many things jumped out at me that I could not ignore. I sadly announce here, for all of VTM, that I now am leaning to the school of thought that Snape is guilty of trading in his Hogwarts robes for Death Eater garb and made the decision to do so on his own merrit.

Here s why...

During the famous speech made by Dumbledore, where he asks Snape if he is prepared (after the rebirth of Voldemort) a line jumped out at me.

Snape is a Dark Wizard, he's used enough Dark Magic (and created new spells of his own) to be branded as such. And he is his own worst enemy, he's made bad choices and he knows it. His guilt drives him on, his envy of Harry drives him on, his unbreakable oaths drive him own, his resentment of DD drives him on, his fear of LV and what LV represents drives him on.

He's pushed in all these directions and he likes none of them, truly a driven character.

(What does LV represent that Snape has to fear? A person completely consumed by the Dark Arts, advanced to the point that he’s no longer human. Snape realized this could have been him, and I think he finds it repulsive.)

I fully believe that neither Snape nor JR herself have decided where his loyalty fully lies. Well that's not true, Snapes loyalty is ultimately with Snape, but my point is he's not really rooting for either side. He's muddling through as best he can, fulfilling his obligations, playing the sides against each other and trying to salvage what he can for himself, knowing that whatever side he's ultimately on he's probably not getting out alive.

He will eventually have to throw down eventually and pick a side once and for all, and that will probably make all the difference...

I too believe that all of that is true as well. After I read HBP I was adiment about him still being "on the fence" so to speak. But I fear (as much as I really don't want to) that Jo writes things as they are. Nowhere is there a precedence for Snape doing a complete 180. I mean, she left us plenty of hints as to his true loyalties. However we all were blinded by our love of his snarkyness, Dumbledore's trust and the other "scape goats" she has had.

I remember reading CoS and thinking that she was doing a great job of setting Hagrid up. But in the end, WHAM, he was innocent and t was someone else.

I think she reversed things on us this time. Reading all five previous books, one can say that Snape may not be cuddly, but he is good. But then WHAM, here he goes and does something like this. (the murder). I think we should take Jo's words at face value and not read into them.
I do believe however he is Slytherin through and through and that if there is a chance that he can walk away unscathed in the end, even if that means helping Harry and the Order, he will do it to save his own skin. In the words of the portrait, Phinilias Nigelus (really can't spell and too lazy to look it up) the Slytherin's will always find a way to save thier own arse. It is possible he will help in the end, but not because he believes in any dogma of good over evil. he believes in Snape living to see another day and possibly getting some glory for it.

Aw no, Melissa!! How could you do this to me?! Just when I was utterly convinced he was innocent!!

Oh dear, dear me....well, I guess I'm going to have to have a trawl through GoF again to compose a proper rebuttal, but right now, I can't say I fault your logic one little bit. I agree completely - that "either or" is very vague and could imply anything - and it's the dark wizard bit that bothers me.

Mmm....I'm going to have to think on this and come back later.

Poor Snape....there may yet be hope....

PS- Sparky!!! So good to see you back here!! Where've you been?!

Snape works for the dark side
he is betraying dumbledore and the others
he wants power

Hi. As i believe, snape is innocent. Mostly, anyway. It's a strange thing, the whole thing. I remember the first time i read HBP, i cried and cried about Dumbledore dying, then, when i actually thought about it, i took a few things into consideration. I have read this thread from start to finish. Alll theories have truths. I have one, maybe it had been said before, but i'd like to say anyway.

What if DD made Slughorn the Potions teacher because he knew that Slughorn would have a lower standard for being his NEWT student, so Harry would be in that class and have the chance to become an Auror to defeat Voldemort?

Just a thought.

At first I was convinced Snape was pure evil through and through, but something was always nagging at me from the back of my mind. I want to, I really want to think that he's on the good side....but the more posts I read in this thread the more my mind shifts to the contrary. The post that clinched it was Snapelover's....if you don't mind me mentioning names, that is...

I am this close to being sure of my opinion, which is a confusing statement to you and me both to be truthful. In my opinion, Snape most likely took into consideration the outcome of this war and saw which path would best save his butt. In choosing the path he did, and killing DD, I don't think he truly betrayed either side...thus saving his arse, in a manner of speaking.

I say this because I firmly believe that DD asked Snape to do the deed when the time came. There is no way, ever, that DD would beg for anything. Therefore I say that he was asking Snape to do as he asked and take his life. I honestly don't think Dumbledore planned on living to see the end of this war anyway. Snape saw this as an opportunity to persue(sp?) the path that would ensure his survival through this ordeal.

So, my final words (for the moment, heheh) are that Snapes Loyalties are to himself and no other. Sure he may have, in a way, looked up to Dumbledore (Hence the infamous Slap scene when called a coward), but saving his skin, I think, counted for more.

I think I may have just confused myself with that one....

Cheers fellow HP-fans, just got done with Book 6 and wanted to really get the whole story before the last book. So I joined this forum

You could be into something there Falmouth_Falcons, but I would like to extend it a bit.

What if Snape is on either's side, he's just playing on both for his own good. DD, apparently, got full trust in Snape, so Snape must know of DD's research on LV. Simultaneously, it seems that everyone on the dark side trust him also, to a certain length at least. Could Snape be wanting to defeat LV and manage to hide it from him?

So Snape is in the very top on both sides, giving him tremendous powers and opportunities to manipulate both DD and LV.

By killing DD, Snape got himself a lifetime in Azkaban, I'm pretty sure nothing can prevent that, except maybe if it was a fake death, which I strongly doubt.

Could it be, that Snape would betray LV (If he's on the bad side), help Harry defeating him and then try to eliminate Harry himself? Could that be why he insisted the Death Eaters to leave at once when DD was dead, making sure Harry remained untouched so he could fulfill his task.

Snape is so close to DD and LV, he must know that LV only thinks of himself, what will become of Snape if Harry dies? Maybe the end of Book 7 will be a fight between Snape and Harry, LV already being dead.

Snape can be manipulating, and being an extraordinary wizard, he could make Harry believe he's helping him defeat LV, and when it is finished, try to kill Harry himself.

Learning more about Snape would be really interresting. His time at Hogwarts, the HBP-thing, his whole story. And also Lily's, which I am sure will play a great part in the last book.

With all these Snape-is-bad-vibes let me just jump in and add a Snape-is-good-argument. Just read again somewhere that JKR liked the changes in PoA (from book to movie). And my favourite Snape moment (apart from the duelling-club) is the PoA scene, where Lupin changes into a werewolf. The first thing Snape does is protect the kids. It's really a reflex and I don't think JKR would have approved if the book-Snape was all that different. True, the book-Snape at that point acts very different, but I've come to accept the hints in the movie as a support of the storyline, not as diversions.

Also wanted to add that don't think DD trusted Snape because of an unbreakable vow from Snape to him. That would a) be too easy and not something DD had to keep a secret (why not tell Harry or anybody else interested that Snape did so).

Its harry and the others
i hate snaaaaaaape

MOD EDIT : Mmm...second time today. Please don't post one liners here. If you haven't read the rules yet, please do so before you post again. If you have nothing more constructive to say, then it's better not to post at all.

If this has been said before I'm sorry, but I have to say this. I agree on most of the facts pointing to the face that Snape is evil, but there is just one nagging little fact that has been bothering me. Why would he alert the order or even check to see if Sirius was actualy at headquarters when Harry told him in OOTP. Why not just let it go a claim that he never heard it to everyone else? Because if he didn't tell them then Vold. would have had a clear shot at Harry, and everyone else would have died. So if someone can please tell me why he alerted the Order to where Harry had gone. Sorry if this has already been said or answered.

From what Ron told Harry about the Unbreakable Vow, it seems to me that it is a tool used by dark wizards. He told Harry that Mr. Weasley caught him & one of the twins just in time to prevent them making an UV & FredGeorge (whichever or both) were in deep trouble for trying to trick Ron into making it. I just don't think Dumbledore would indulge in that type of magic to ensure loyalty from anyone. He is the one who said the choices we make (right or easy) are what define one as a person. The UV forces the choice on whoever makes it--you have no choice but to follow what is required by the vow. I really doubt that Dumbledore would take away someone's right to make a choice.

I think there were so many hints--albeit small ones--in all the books about Snape's loyalties.

SS--Harry has the dream about Quirrell's turban telling him to switch houses. We know that under the turban is Voldemort sharing Quirrell's body. Voldemort wanted Harry to switch to Slytherin. He wanted to somehow influence Harry into joining him or die if he didn't join him.
CoS--Snape was the one who manipulated the events to make everyone think Harry was the Heir of Slytherin. When Lockhart started the dueling club Harry & Draco were supposed to demonstrate the disarming spell. Snape advised Draco to conjure a snake & when Harry was proven a Parseltongue in front of the school Snape's expression is described as shrewd and calculating. At Flourish & Blott's, just prior to when Lucius planted the DiaryCrux in Ginny's cauldron, Harry put his books in there & Draco saw it. I think Lucius planted the diary there with the intention of Harry getting it. Snape's calculating expression could be where he also made that connection. The big surprise is that Ginny had the diary not Harry. Didn't Riddle tell Harry in the chamber that he was gratified to learn that Harry had come into possession of the diary? And was disappointed that Ginny got it back, too? Again, Riddle tried to get Harry to either join him or die for not joining him.
PoA--We saw that Snape was willing to condemn 2 innocent men to the dementors & that he went ballistic because he knew Harry helped Sirius to escape. In this book, we didn't see Voldemort but it did serve the purpose of showing once and for all, that Harry would never switch to Voldemort's cause. I think this is the information that Snape referred to when he said he provided information (Spinner’s End) that led to Sirius' death. If he had any loyalty to Dumbledore before, I think this is the point (PoA) where he may have decided to return to Voldemort when he came back to power. (Not that I think he ever wavered in his loyalties.)

As to why he alerted the Order about Harry’s whereabouts, he had to or Dumbledore would have found out about it sooner or later. If he wanted to continue spying for Voldemort, he could not risk Dumbledore becoming suspicious of him. He might even have alerted the DEs before he told anyone else, which could also be the ‘information’ he claimed (Spinner’s End) he provided to Voldemort that led to Sirius’ death.

Too much information there to just end up being coincidence, I think.

Why did DD die by the way? To save Malfoy? Did DD know about Snape's Unbreakable Vow? If the death was planned, DD must've known about the Vow.

DD's main objective on the school is to protect every single student, but could he sacrifice himself to let Malfoy live? If DD had disarmed Malfoy on the rooftop, he and Harry could've escaped.

If they had managed to escape, LV could've murdered Draco, would that lead to Snape's death since he failed to fulfill the UV?

Why is Snape so concerned about Draco? Why is he so valuable? Snape made an UV to protect and assist Draco, but why, if his intentions is to eliminate LV, if helping Draco meant that DD had to die and Snape could never be trusted by the good side ever again.

I don’t get what you mean in asking these questions. I do not think Dumbledore conspired with Snape in planning his own death. And I think it’s pretty clear that Dumbledore does not know about the vow.

HBP page 588

What I was trying to point out, was why DD died, if Snape is on the good side. Snape can't be good through and through and at the same time kill DD.

There are many theories of why Snape is on the good side, but I fail to see how DD's death could be planned.

I don't belive Snape is good, nor evil, more of a thing in between.

If Snape is so good at Occ. then how would DD find out that he actually knew Harry was at the Ministry during OOTP. I also believe the information that he provided to Vold. was the fact that Harry saw Sirius as a Father figure. I honestly can't see a way around this. Because, again I'll state, if Snape truly is working for the Vold. he wouldn't have made a move to protect Harry in the OOTP. Another thought. When does Snape tell Malfoy to conjure a snake in CS, quote please.

snape's betraying dumbledore obviously

kryp.

Thanks for the clarification Zeph.

That is what I'm talking about, since Snape is an expert at Occ. then how would DD find out that he knew or had an idea as to where Harry was after he didn't come out of the forest. He could have played it off that he didn't know and let the Death Eaters easily kill Harry and then he could have pretended he was "disgruntled" so to speak about Harry's death.

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And now im going to venture into the great sea of wild theories. Now just think, could it be possible that Snape and Wormtail knew of Malfoy's mom was coming and they took Poly Juice potions in order to actually trick them. Snape could have had an idea or DD could have had an idea that she would ask him to preform a UV. I know it's a stretch but hey, I have seen wilder theories.

true true mission . . . . . well i really have no idea who snape betayed . . . . maybe himself. Hmm . . . . . ill come back when i actually think of somehting other than myself thinking

Maybe snape is betraying both of them
so he could get the power

hmm, i don't know about that. that to me is too much like Slughorn and Wormtail. there's already a dozen characters that are just hanging around for either power itself or links to power (ie. Slughorn).

Snape's already proven he's deeper than that. after Occlumency visions, and working in the Order, there's the UV with Narcissa, the chat he had with Bellatrix, the argument he had with DD and finally DD's 'murder!?'. all of these show me that Snape has something up his sleeve. he's too complicated to just be hanging around until the time is right to jump in and be his own man. he's lied to too many people just to get away with that.
i sincerely hope it doesn't come to this anyway. i think that would ruin what has been 6 books in the making-an answer to Snape's allegiance.

this is also why i believe he's on the good side. he's sly, tricky, interesting, and we know so little about him after so long. i think this is because there are facts that JK has hidden from us that will let us know how good Snape is. if she'd divulged these facts before, we would have known what side he's on, so she's hidden them so that we keep guessing till the end. this is what i'm hoping for. Snape is a character i love to hate, so i want him to fight for good in the end.

hey, it's just my opinion, who says i'm right?

....."Protego!"....... Snape staggered: his wand flew upward, away from Harry........and suddenly Harry's mind was teeming with memories that were not his.......a hook-nosed man was shouting at a cowering woman, while a small dark-haired boy cried in a corner.....A greasy-haired teenager sat alone in a dark bedroom, pointing his wand at the ceiling, shooting down flies.....A girl was laughing as a scrawny boy tried to mount a bucking broom..... "ENOUGH!" ...........Snape was shaking slightly, very white in the face.......

If as everyone thinks, Snape is so well trained in occlumency, then how was Harry able to penetrate Snape's mind so easily? If Harry could do it why can't Voldemort or Dumbledor. Could this mean that possibly Harry has more powers than people think He has, more than Snape, Dumbledor or Voldemort?

I just had another thought...........If the ministry of magic are able to tell when Harry used magic in his home, then why didn't Snape get into trouble for "shooting down flies", doesn't that constitue underage use of magic?

Hi everyone! I was rereading a few chapters in HBP. I found a few things that might suggest that Snape is betraying Voldemort not Dumbledore. Here's what I found.

In the chapter Spinner's End Snape is explaining to Bellatrix why Dumbledore trusts him and believes him. And in one line he says, " I am pleased to say, DD is growing old. The duel with Voldemort last month shook him . He has since sustained a serious injury because reactions are slower than they once were." This led me to think that Snape is talking about the injury DD got while trying to destroy Marvolo's ring which was once a horcrux. And DD says that he only saved his hand thanks to " Snape's timely action" because otherwise he would have died. So if Snapes working for Voldemort wouldn't he not have helped DD when he came back from destroying the ring and just let him die?? This also means that Snape knows about the horcruxes. If he was working with Voldemort wouldn't he have tried to stop DD from destroying a piece of his Lord's soul???

Another clue I found was in Spinner's End when Snape, Narcissa, and Bellatrix are performing the Unbreakable Vow. Snape agrees to do the Vow because he thinks he only has to help Draco in any way possible. But then Narcissa says," And, should it prove necessary... if it seems Draco will fail... (Snape's hand twitched within hers, but he did not draw away) will you carry out the deed that the Dark Lord has ordered Draco to perform?" So basically right here it seems like Snape realizes that he doesn't only have to help Draco but kill DD if necessary. That's why he twitches thinking of letting go but doesn't because Bellatrix is right there and if he did let go I'm pretty sure Bellatrix would go running to tell Voldemort what happened so Snape would be exposed.

Just a few little things I caught while reading. I might be wrong and if you disagree that's fine with me. Sorry if anybody else has mentioned these already as I haven't read the whole thread.

Interesting Dracofan4life . . . . interesting. I thought about that a few times while reading Spinners end, but i really didn't get to think about it mush because my curiosity got ahead of me and i had to read on. True thoughts. I also believe that Sanpe had betrayed Voldemort, but i also, i also truly believe that Snape has betrayed himself from the begginging, or something introspective like that I dunno . . . just because he was bullyed a lot when he was younger he might think that way.

But then again we are talking in literal terms, and i have to think about that so more

Dont know if anyone has mentioned this, but i find it very interesting when Snape is dueling Harry before he flees and he says to Harry (in essence) "no unforgivable curses for you today Potter, not until you learn to close your mind".
perhaps Snape really is trying to arm Harry with everything he needs to defeat Voldemort.

i also wonder why Snape was so remorseful when he found out he'd handed the Potters to Voldemort, waht connection was there?

just a few random thoughts.

I am new...sorry for if there are many repeats.

Dumbledore knew what Malfoy was up to, Since I think DD knew that he had a contract out on him. Also I do see him willing to die to save Draco's life. DD wants LV to have very few faithful followers, and by trying to save Draco, he would hope that Draco will really sit down and look at what he is getting into. Thoughts are one thing, but the deed may be quite a bit different. Which hopefully Draco found out when it was time to actually do the task. I think this may bring Draco over in the end.
I also think DD knew what Snape would have to do, and that this was his plan from the start.
I have so many different ideas that it is hard to say them all. I do think DD trusts Snape, but whether that is a misplaced trust or not is the main issue. Because letting Snape know all about the OOTP would be a very huge risk to take with someone who you can not be sure about. Unless DD knew Snape really could not be trusted and was using that against Snape all along and only letting Snape think he was in DD confidences. Right now I am leaning towards the idea that DD was willing to make the sacrifice by dying in order to give Snape LV's trust. Knowing that the OOTP will have an advantage in knowing LV plans. And maybe find out just what the Horcurx's are exactly, so they can be found and destroyed

I have not been able to make up my mind if DD is really dead or not, I can argue both sides. However I do believe that DD would be willing to die if it meant getting rid of LV in the end. DD has said that one of LV's faults is his arrogance. And I do believe that with DD thought (or really) dead that would make LV a bit over confident, and maybe give Harry the edge he may need. We know DD was LV's greatest adversary, and he thought Harry to weak to worry about at first. With Harry getting the better of him so many times a wise man would rethink that idea, but with LV being so blind in regards to some things, he may now think Harry easy prey. And I think that may be his greatest mistake.

And why didn't Snape and the Death Eaters take Harry with them? They would with no doubt have been able to put a spell on himk apparate him out and give him away to Voldemort.

The way Snape killed DD, he didn't say a word, just killed him right away. If Snape is evil and has always wanted DD dead, would he not have taken huge pleasure in the situation, mocking DD.

When running from Harry, Snape seems angry with Harry's feeble attempts to hit him with his spells.

I don't think Snape betrayed DD, but at the same time I can't be able to put the whole picture together with the Unbreakable Vow, Draco's life and what it is that makes DD trust Snape as much as he is. Another thing is, by killing DD, Snape got himself a lifetime in Azkaban, this must have been considerated in DD's plans, if he had any. If Snape and DD had a plan about Snape killing him, I don't think he would have been able to convince the MoM that Snape is innocent. But I think Snape will die in the last book, no matter which side he is on.

Your thoughts on Voldemort's overconfidence seems logical Bastet. The death of DD, one of his most dangerous enemies and the fact that Snape did it could make him too overconfident. If Snape, perhaps even Draco, at some time will help Harry to kill Voldemort, he would surely not see it coming.

For those in doubt about Snape's loyalty to DD, you might want to read Jeannine's thread Rowling Is Framing Snape And Dumbledore

If all these small details prove to be correct, JKR truly shows what great writer she is.

I think he's tied by the bond...

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Wow, this thread has gotten pretty huge again, hasn't it?

I think it's about time this was closed and archived now, so if you give me a few moments, I'll get a nice clean new one up and running.