Well, after four huge threads, it seems that the jury is still pretty much out.

I strongly recommend that newcomers to this debate spend some time looking though AT LEAST THE END OF THREAD 4 even if you don't fancy tackling the others.

I understand that they're huge and that you might not have time, but I should warn you that if you repeat things that have already been said, you're likely to either be ignored, or be subject to a little bit of frustration from other members. It pays to do a bit of research before posting - you'll get much more respect.

Everyone here is pretty new to the forums it seems, so please, I'd appreciate some patience shown to the newcomers, okay? You were all new once...

As I said, there seems to be good arguments for both sides and it is worth reading through at least some of the old threads that can be found in the Archived Threads forum here.

Okay...carry on.

This post was written by abo8 but has been transferred here.

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I was talking to one of my T.A's about book six, and he told me of this theory, and I agree with him. I am writting this without my book at hand, so bear with me on some spelling and quotations.

Who is the one person that everyone questions if he is loyal to Lord Vodlemort and or Dumbledore? In the begining of the book the Death Eaters question why Lord Voldemort trusts Snape. At Hogwarts all the teachers trust Snape because Dumbledore trust Snape. Has Dumbledore ever been wrong? Therefore I believe Snape to be a double agent

1. What did Dumbledore tell Draco while they were up in the tower? "They can not kill you if they think your dead"

2. Snape then comes up and preforms a spell that sends Dumbledore out of the tower. However I believe Snape did a non-verbal spell before he did the avada kerdova, and for the brief instance where Dumbledore sort of held in the sky before falling, he took his imobilization spell off of Harry, making Harry think the caster had died which was why he was free. While where Dumbledore some how floats to the ground

3. Outside Harry tells Hagrid about Dumbledore's death, and even Hagrid mentions something about Snape was only following orders from Dumbledore.

4. Harry looks at Dumbledore's body outside the tower and mentions that he almost could have been asleep. Well maybe he was.

5. Here's the big kicker: When Dumbledore's body is placed on the tomb a white light surrounds the body and a tomb is formed. But while the white light surrounds the body, Harry for a brief moment thinks he see's a phoenix fly joyfully away. I believe that that phoenix was a transformed Dumbledore who is flying away into hiding.

I don't know how right I am about this, but all the clues are there, and I wouldn't put it past J.k Rowling to bring Dumbledore back in book seven.
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You have some good theories and i agree with you 100% on all of them. I just can't wiat untill book seven comes out and we will all know.

Okay, I know cowardice has been mentioned before and I dunno if this was one of them that people had said before or not....

Book 4 Chapter 1 Page 8-9 (U.S. Hardback Edition)-"My Lord, I do not say this is out of concern of the boy!" said Wormtail,his voice rising sqeakily. "The boy is nothing to me,nothing at all! It is merely that if we were to use another witch or wizard---any wizard---the thing could be done so much more quickly! If you allowed me to leave you for a short while---you know that I can disguise myself most effectively---I could be back here in as little as two days with suitable person---"

" I could use another wizard,"said the cold voice softly, "that is true...."

"My Lord,it makes sense," said wormtail,sounding throughly releived now. "Laying hands on Harry potter would be so difficult, he is so well protected ---"

"And so you volunteer to go and fetch me a substitute? I wonder...perhaps the task of nursing me has become to wearisome for you,Wormtail Could this suggestion of abandoning the plan be nothin more than an attempt to desert me?"

"My Lord! I---I have no wish to leave you, none at all---"

"Do not lie to me!" hissed the second voice. "I can always tell, Wormtail! You are regretting that you ever returned to me..I revolt you. I see you flinch when you look at me ,fell you shudder when you touch me...."

"No! My devotion to your Lordship---"

"Your devotion is nothing more than cowardice. You should not.........

The mention of calling Wormtail's devotion of seving Lord Voldemort as cowardice may be linked to Harry calling Snape a coward. Does anyone think Voldemort may have called Snape a coward before and is just letting of anger at Harry because he is tired of being called that and have to put up with it while acting as a spy?

all theories are valid and i really think that everything is possible in seventh book. Well here is why i believe that Snape its on the good side: in chapter27 (the lighting-struck tower) says:
"severus...
The sound frightened Harry beyond anything he had experienced all evening. For the first time Dumbledore was pleading.
Snape said nothing, but walk forward and pushed Malfoy roughly out of the way(...)
Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the lines of his face.
Severus...please..."
well it might be that Dumbledore actually was pleading snape but not for his life he actually knew that it might happen so he previosly asked snape to kill him if it was necesary. how snape reacted it might be cause he hated what he had to do . i really think that Dumbledore couldnt be that silly trusthing snape for nothig he must have had very strong reasons for that. i also believe that even if i want it very badly Dumbledore wont be coming back in the next book in the final part of chapter 26 Harry says "we´re nearly there ...i can apparate both of us back...dont worry..." Dumbledore: "i am not worry" (...)"im with you" that was the sweetest thing he could´ve said to harry and that sounded to me like a good bye.
well ill like to know what u think so comment this please!
beijos!

This post will more or less be proving or disproving (of course, all in my opinion. I could be totally wrong) some theories circulating about Snape's betrayal.

First being that Snape just flat-out betrayed Dumbledore and killed him. This would explain the looks of disgust and hatred he showed as he killed Dumbledore. It would also explain the convincing pleading, and sneering/laughing/taunting Harry during his flight out of Hogwarts' grounds. Personally I believe that this is an extremely likely case, and I'm surprised so many think otherwise.

Another being that Snape killed Dumbledore on Dumbledore's orders... most things going around about this theory don't make too much sense to me. I mean I can see how it makes sense, but it just seems a little far-fetched. However, upon rereading The Flight of the Prince, I took special notice of when Snape screams, with pain and misery in his voice, "DON'T CALL ME COWARD!!!" or something along those lines. This was after reading several posts about how the heated argument between Snape and Dumbledore may have been Dumbledore telling Snape to kill him when Malfoy eventually tried to. Snape wanted to refuse to kill the man who had taken him in, and this could also explain the looks of revulsion as he killed Dumbledore... revulsion at what he was doing. His scream of "DON'T CALL ME COWARD!!!" surprised me... that is, how much it angered Snape that Harry called him a coward. I think Snape may have hard an extremely hard time killing Dumbledore, and was extremely sensitive to being called "coward" after doing something so difficult for him. However much this makes sense, we must also take in to account that this means that Dumbledore knew Malfoy's entire plan -- including the Death Eater invasion -- all along, knew there would be casualties, and yet did nothing to stop it...?

As for the few others that think that Snape cast a silent spell to send Dumbledore flying over the ramparts then said Avada Kedavra, and Dumbledore's still alive, read my last post, and also I thought I'd just add that the green bolt of light hit Dumbledore "squarely in the chest" immediately after he said "Avada Kedavra!"

Myself, I believe the first two theories are most likely, seeing as Dumbledore didn't HAVE to know the whole plan -- he might of thought Malfoy would make the attempt alone -- to prove Theory #2 correct. The third.... I dunno....

Regardless, I believe that Dumbledore will NOT be returning. I think he's dead, and that's that.

There is one thing, that i thought of. Snape heard the whole prohpecy. He heard beginning, middle, and end. So why did Voldemort only hear the beginning and middle?

In book four or five, cant remember, it is metioned that Snape turned against Voldemort and worked as a double agent for Dumbeldore before Lord Voldmorts downfall.

So i personally am still undecided, but felt like pointing these out.

Did Snape hear the whole prophecy or are you trying to say that he might've? They way i heard it when i read was he only heard the 1st part.

Some random thoughts here?

DD seems to think the best about every one and judges them based on how he feels they will act when it is all said and done. So even if he felt Snape would betray him, did he trust him anyway because he feels Snape will eventually do the right thing?

I personally believe the theory that Snape did it on DD's orders so that he could protect Draco and further align himself with Voldemort. Snape could have killed him at anytime, or allowed the cursed ring to kill DD. Why was it important that Serverus do it at that moment and with witnesses. DD was adamant that Snape be the one to help him after leaving the cave, insisting that Harry wake Snape would insure that he could do the job, otherwise there was no way to be sure anyone else would have gone to get him.

Will DD rise from the ashes like the Phoenix? I don't think so but I think he will still guide Harry through his portrait, or with memories in the pensieve, much in the way Obi Wan Kenobi did for young Luke Skywalker from beyond the grave.

I don't think Snape even hates Harry, he hates his arrogance. Snape is the one who has put himself in the greatest danger and he is continually tormented by Harry who continues to disrespect him like James did. I think in a way his taunting of Harry and deflection of his spells is a way to show Harry he needs to have more respect for his opponent's abilities.

Here's a question, if DD knew the plan all the time did he also know the Horcrux was a fake and just needed to get out the castle to let Draco's plan happen. and taking Harry would also help insure Draco's success.

Here is what Professor Trelawney, i am quoting from the American edition.

Well, I've read quite a few posts from the older threads and this thread, and there's a lot of food for thought. I'll admit, I couldn't make it through all of them, as I'm at work..."working".

While I'm still undecided whether or not DD is dead, all the evidence seems to point to him knowing something like this was going to happen and arranging with Snape to kill/pretend to kill him if it came down to it. But what keeps creeping back into my mind is that Snape may not have known at all what Malfoys task was when he made the vow!! What if Malfoy's task was to simply get Death Eaters into Hogwarts? By the time Snape confronted Dumbledore, his vow with Narcissa would have been completed! I mean, that is what Malfoy had been working on the whole year...repairing the Vanishing Cabinet so that DE could get to Hogwarts from Borgins and Burkes. If this was the case, then Snape is unwittingly betraying Dumbledore, but perhaps out of necessity and most likely in a planned fashion both knew about.

And another thing that I've just thought of...how talented, really, was Malfoy at potions? Was he good enough that he could consistently make polyjuice potion? Where was he getting all the ingredients from? Remember, the Trio had to steal ingredients from Snape's personal store back in CoS!! And even Hermione, widely known as the most talented student witch in Hogwarts said that Polyjuice potion was the most complicated potion she had ever seen. And we know Crabbe and Goyle are gits and couldn't help. What about the poison the Ron drank...did Malfoy make that too? This may not be related to Snape or this thread entirely, but what if Malfoy had extra help from somewhere within Hogwarts? Hmmm, more reading required I think.

The first thing i have to say about your post is that Malfoy didn't have to steal the polyjuice potion because harry thought that malfoy stole the polyjuice potion during the first potions lesson because he was sitting right next to it.

The second thing is i think that dd is dead because the picture that turned up in his office. I think that it was planned though but i stick by my statement that i think dd is dead.

Two new things. I took a look through the TLC interview with JKR. A couple things in the interview would seem to support the evil Snape theory.

MA: Well, there are conspiracy theorists, and there are people who will claim -

JKR: Cling to some desperate hope [laughter] -

and...

MA: Oh, here’s one [from our forums] that I’ve really got to ask you. Has Snape ever been loved by anyone?

JKR: Yes, he has, which in some ways makes him more culpable even than Voldemort, who never has.

Neither of these seems categorical, but suggest that Snape is not good, and therefore could be up to no good.

Really, we won't know until the next book, but killing DD did seem to really have Snape putting it out there.

I'm wondering how JKR is going to pull it off, because if Snape is just an evil minnion of LV, then the entire story arc runs the risk of being like a cartoon with the smart kid who knows it all (Harry) being right all along about how evil Snape was, and the grownups not listening to his (in retrospect) wisdom.

I don't think Snape has to be a "hero" or "double agent", or loyal to DD to prevent that from happenning to the plot, but it would take a lot of work to pull the story out from banality if he is not still working against LV.

The thing I find a little strange is that some of folks who argue against the "Evil" Snape theory seem to base it personal feelings about Snape. For me, its about the plot and character development. There has been the ongoing thread in the story of conflict between Harry and Snape because they are on the same side. That creates great tension which will not be there if events continue as they end in HBP.

HI i like all the theories even though some and most of them ahve been mentioned before so if you guys have time please visit all the posts as mentioned above

We only find out in this book that it was snape behind the door listening to the prophacy and it is said that he only heard half never said wich half

First half
'The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches . . . born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies . . . and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not . . .

Second half
and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives . . . the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies . . .'

so if snape did here the prophacy he heard the second half as he then was caught and trelawny's vision was broken thats how she knew snape was there it makes sence

Haha, I've somehow never thought about the fact that Snape could overhear the second part of the prophecy, stupid me! Because it always didn't make sense for me how he could listen to only a part of it, as she is in trance and doesn't stop it!

Do you think that Snape really didn't know who was born at that time?

It's a good quote, Kathrina, and I've read in a different interview that Rowlin's opinion was that we often go for bad guys like Draco, Severus or Lucius. In a real life I don't support them, believe me, I'm not as young as I may seem and I have my own experiences and I know these bad guys are unchangeable.

But I always assumed that Draco and Lucius and Snape are pure evil only in 3 books. I've changed my mind after reading books 4, 5 and 6- I claim that draco and Lucius are bad- I mean, Draco saw that DD is ill and talked all these rude things to him, and Draco is a real coward pretending not to be- but I believe there's more between DD and Snape. When he went to LV in the book 4, when LV returned to his power... he seemed scared and he really prefered comfortable teaching, I guess. When he discovered Harry's dreams and told DD about them. I think there'a a kind of deal between DD and Snape and we don't know what it is, and even if he doesn't like it, he does it.

I'd have to agree with you 100% Bubo.

I think there is a lot more between Dd and Severus than anyone could have possibly imagined. There have been too many incidents in which Severus has done the best by Harry even though from Harry's eyes it looks like he has been cruel and deceitful towards him.

Severus, although it may not be the position that he wanted, loves what he does. He shows both potion making and defence as a real artform that you can only appreciate and respect.

Severus never HAD to tell Dd anything. He didn't have to tell him that Harry was seeing the Department Mysteries. He could have just let him go and pretended that he never saw anything. He didn't HAVE to tell Dumbledore and the Order that the group had gone to the ministry.

But he DID. so what did he have to gain by doing so, if he was on the side of evil and trying to get Harry killed anyway?

There are many very exciting theories here and I kind of agree with all of them... Personally I just won't accept that Snape is evil as that would be too simple... In the beginning of the book he hesitated to do the unbreakable vow, but obviously had no choice if he wouldn't like to reveal himself. When he was running off the castle after having killed Dumbledore he could easily have killed or hurt Harry, but didn't do anything like that. Another thing, no-one was to kill Dumbledore except for Draco. Now Snape just stormed into the room and killed him. Wouldn't that put Draco and his family in a very dangerous situation? Would Snape really do that to his friends?
We still don't know why Dumbledore trusted Snape, only that he had a very good reason.

Dumbledore may be dead, but his portrait is up on the wall and will help and guide Harry in his search for the other horcruxes. As for the ring, I don't think we have got the whole truth there. It could have been swapped after they had collected it.

Well, this discussion has been getting along for quite some time now with some very intelligent and thoughtful insights on the part of the participants.

Of course, for those of you who have read what I have written in the past, you know precisely where my arguments rests and so I direct this mainly at those who are opposed or are unsure that Severus Snape is in fact loyal to Dumbledore.

1. How is it that Severus was able to dupe Dumbledore with a simple story for a period of 16 years without Dumbledore ever checking into or feeling that perhaps he might be wrong when as Professor McGonagall states very clearly that "we all wondered (about Snape)? In other words why would Dumbledore give more credence to Severus rather than all of his other most loyal followers.

2. Why indeed, was Dumbledore, who is so loathe of those who would hurt others, those who call themselves Death Eaters, never once consider that Snape, whom he knows to be a very good Occlumens, to be lying to him?

3. Why is it that Severus, if he is such a loyal Servant of the Dark Lord, and who himself must be an incredibly powerful wizard in that he was able to have both duped and disposed of Dumbledore, and who supposedly thoroughly believed Voldemort to be gone, not take up the lead himself?

4. If Snape is, as many have suggested, so contemptably corrupt, why does he sit at Hogwarts for an additional seven years after Harry arrives even though he knew immediately that Harry had no special abilities? Why not kill Dumbledore and Harry straight off and soon as you have found the truth? Surely, with his talents, he would have found a more lucrative position than that of teacher!

5. Finally, if Serverus is rotten to the core, and Harry and Ron, were always correct about him, doesn't that also make Hermione, the supposedly cleverest Witch in their class, just as much of an imbisil as Dumbledore. Why didn't Hermione find the flaw? She is not overly trusting, she has no weakness for always seeing the best in others. What then are we to think of her if She to has been so obviously mistaken about a man who is clearly then the most loathesome person next to Lord Voldemort living.

"I trust Severus Snape" Albus Dumbledore

General note....

As mod warnings don't appear to be reaching people where they've been put, I'm putting them in the threads instead so now, you guys have no excuse.

It is very clear to me that a lot of you are posting here without having paid much attention to the rules.

Please read them. Claiming to be new will only wash for so long.

There are many signatures in this thread that are over the image size and are far larger than 5 lines - please correct them before the mods have to do it for you. We won't be happy if we need to do that.

There are also other things covered in the rules with regard to searching, respecting each others opinion and so on that I think everyone could do with a little refresher on.

The link is in my signature.

All that aside, excellent post, Falcon.... I'm firmly in the Snape is Innocent camp...I've teetered a lot, but the more I've thought about it and the more I've read, there's no doubt left in my mind.

So what if I'm wrong and I get called delusional again...won't be the first time.

Well gee since Snape KILLED dumbledore u would knda think he was betraying dumbledore huh?
but still i think the DL isnt going to be too happy about it cuz it was MALFOY's job in the first place.
i think we havent heard the end of Snape changing sides though. imean just imagine: snape says that he had to sacrifice dumbledore just to gain to DL's trust and then unloads a whole ****load'a'crap to get harry's trust back then stabs him the back AGAIN.

MOD EDIT : Will you please scroll up the page and read my warning? Please read the rules before you post again - swearing and netspeak is not allowed here and you really need to watch your tone.

OI!!

Do I need to lock this thread and suspend people's accounts to get some attention here or what?!!!!

READ THE RULES BEFORE POSTING.

If snape had really betrayed the order, why then did he never attack or kidnap professor trilany(spelling?) since he knew she was the one who had made the prophecy.

It seems to me that if Severus Snape really had betrayed the order, he would have taken out Harry Potter. He had plenty of chances to kill Harry at the end of the book.

Either way, it sets up for a really good book 7.

Hey, novembermike, and welcome! I think Snape is innocent, but I also think I can answer some of your questions. I don't think Snape would dare try to attack/kidnap Sybill Trelawney, because Dumbledore would know- Dumbledore knows Snape heard (or tried to hear) parts of the prophecy. Also, he explains to Bellatrix and Narcissa in HBP that it would look very suspicious to murder Dumbledore's favorite student.
The reason Snape didn't kill Harry at the end of HBP is because Voldemort clearly wants Harry kept alive- because Voldemort, setting too much store by the prophecy, believes that he will have to defeat Harry, that he is the only one who can. Also, because I think Snape is on our side, he would not want to kill 'the Chosen One'- Harry stands a very good chance at defeating Voldemort, no matter how much Snape pretends to doubt his student's intellect.
I'm convinced of Snape's innocence because- as has been stated previously- it would be too simple for him to just be another bad guy! There has to be something more to it- Snape is an extremely complex character- I know there must be reasons behind his actions that we just aren't aware of yet. And until we do find out what those reasons are, I think Snape is innocent until really and truly proven guilty.
-- Gin

Another cup of coffee and I'm ready to discuss my favourite thread!

At first, when I read the book I was shocked and convinced that Snape is pure evil. Some guys opened my eyes for more possibilities than this one shown in the ending of HBP. Considering the fact that there are 2 books (sixth and seventh together) meant to be as a one book, as Rowling said, there may be so many twists in action we can't imagine .

Why I think that there must be more to it than it's shown in HBP. First 3 books showed Snape evil and in the Prisoner... also greedy of fame.
He was an interesting character but seemed mean like hell for me. "Goblet..." showed Snape who's scared of LV. A bit more human side of him, but not totally, of course. Then "The Order..." and I was delighted. Snape was more and more interesting, and in this book I can be 100% sure that he was on DD's side, there are many proofs for that, I'd written about that earlier. And this bullying scene with Snape being no angel too It was brilliant, it showed how much he cares about if others respect him or not. Still he was no angel, but this feature together with helping DD made me like him even more. And HBP. There are too many strange so-called coincidences which make me believe it was planned but maybe it wasn't exactly what DD imagined. I think that Snape knew what he had to do when he took the vow, and DD knew that he'd die soon, so he did all this fuss with DADA job, Slughorn and Horcruxes, Harry's private lessons, orders to Petunia and so on.

What I don't understand is how many people can believe that Snape is still a good guy or at least helping the good guys . All Snape's previous history aside and just looking at the act of what he did . Snape is a murderer no matter how you look at it , I have read almost every post from the begining of this thread and I have read some fantastic ideas , but nothing that would justify what he did . I have looked at both sides of what happened . Although I can see how it might look like they planned it , but I don't think they did . First being that he has earned himself a life sentence in Askaban,
he split part of his soul , and I honestly don't think that JKR would turn a murderer or at least what he did into anything else . Morally what he did was wrong no matter what the cirrcumstances .

in truth it matters as little as a light shower dose to a giant squid who snape is bettraying, he just killed of a bloke who was like a father to two people hagrid and harry. now as i'm sure most of you have realised hagrid will near enough kill someone for insulting dumbeldor (gof) and magic has little or no effect on him (ootp, hbp) so with this in mind i would say it's a far bet that next time hagrid sees snape he will snap snape and his wand in two and leave him to rot, maby suspended from a tree... now if harry sees snape first (assuming hes got his act together and closed mind) i imagine he will cast sectumsempra again and cut his head off.

I'm not quite sure whether you meant that post to be funny, but the idea of an enraged Hagrid snapping Snape (great alliteration there ) and hanging him up from a tree just tickled me... And then slicing his head off too...I don't know...such venom for a fictional character....

Anyway....I have to take a little bit of an issue with the 'Snape killed someone and that's that' moral stance. Of course, he killed someone which is morally wrong...I would never suggest otherwise. But what if there was a reason? What if Snape didn't want to do it? What if he absolutely loathes himself for having to do it for the greater good?

I don't want to go into the execution or euthanasia arena because that would be obscenely off topic, but the point I'm making is that these are very sticky moral issues too. I don't think anyone would criticise a vet for putting an extremely ill, pain wracked animal to sleep because it's the kindest thing to do than to let it suffer needlessly. Obviously, I'm not for a moment saying that's what Snape did - effectively 'putting Dumbledore down'...what I'm saying is that sometimes, a seemingly terrible, awful act of taking life might have, if not a legal and moral reason, then perhaps an humanitarian one.

I don't think it's possible in this complicated world we live in to make such clear cut distinctions. I'm not passing any personal opinions about this because I don't want to get into it, but the point is that yes, Snape killed someone - yes, that's wrong...but he may have had his reasons and I've stated what those reasons might be before so I don't want to repeat them again.

Anyway, sad though it makes me to say it, I don't think Snape is exactly going to get off scott free from this, whether he's truly evil or not. These actions have more or less caused an 'imbalance' that can only possibly be corrected by his death. I think that's pretty much a certainty now.

Ok I have made a glance at what other people have said and I hope I don't repeat anything, but i have not read it through thoroughly so I apologise in advance.

I would just like to say why I think Snape did betray Dumbledore.

Firstly, as an argument to the many people who think Dumbledore is not actually dead, if he was not killed would Snape not have died for breaking the Unbreakable Vow? I mean he did make the vow to help draco and if he was likely to fail to carry it out the task himself, the task being to kill Dumbledore?

Secondly, As Voldemort is meant to be the best Legilimens in the world, surely he would have detected Snape, despite Snape's apparent aptitude in Occlumency he struggles with it, if you notice in OotP he struggled to keep his feelings from reaching the surface and had to store them in the pensieve!

Thirdly, both Harry and Snape identify Dumbledore's weakness; Snape during his explanation to Bellatrix and Harry during one of the lessons in the pensieve where he saw Dumbledore giving perhaps a little too much trust to teenage Tom Riddle (Voldemort.)

Fourthly, As Grindelwald the great says, Snape has performed the cardinal sin, he has killed someone, divided his soul. He has performed an unforgivable curse that has earned him a nice cosy cell in Azkaban.

Fifth, Snape describes how he decieved Dumbledore in Chapter Two, Spinners End (although admittedly this is a weak argument)

Sixth, notice how when Harry says that it was Snape that was listening outside the door Dumbledore's face momentarily whitens, maybe this was a fact that Dumbledore had forgotten and caused him to realise that Snape might not be quite trustworthy, despite Dumbledore's reassurances to Harry that Snape is trustworthy after this Harry notices how it seems that Dumbledore is taking a while to make a decision.

Seventh, Snape is infatuated with the Dark Arts and is unusually so for a teacher at Hogwarts, even for a Slytherin. Notice how despite both Slughorn's and Phineaus' obvious flaws it seems that neither had gone into the Dark Arts. Slughorn is even horrified at the thought of killing somebody.

Eighth, yes, eighth, im nearly there though, during one of Rowlings interiews she says heself that he is possibly more dangerous than Voldemort! Surely this is saying that he is a bad guy.

Nineth, last one honest, this is the most obvious point and has possibly been repeated more than the letter a, Snape's treatment towards the students, his bullying behaviour and the way he looks down on those who are not pure-blood.

Ok i'll shut up now, feel free to rip these thoughts to shreds! *laughs*

I personally side with anyone that believes that Snape is really a good guy, and killed DD because he was ordered to. For me, the biggest example of Snape being a good guy in HBP is when he and Harry are fighting and Snape gives Harry some advice (that i believe will be a major factor eventually) Snape says somthing to the extent of "Blocked again and again and again, until you learn to shut yor mouth and close your mind"

Dana Scully said:

All that aside, excellent post, Falcon.... I'm firmly in the Snape is Innocent camp...I've teetered a lot, but the more I've thought about it and the more I've read, there's no doubt left in my mind.

So what if I'm wrong and I get called delusional again...won't be the first time.

Yeah, weird was a bad word choice on my part to describe folks who are rooting for the good Snape, and especially inappropriate from a 40 year old writing to an online forum about a children's book

Mea culpa

a couple of things...

First, DD tells Harry in Book 5 that "Voldemort's information was incomplete", because "the eavesdropper was detected only a short way into the prophecy and thrown from the building". DD then clarifies that Voldemort "heard only the first part, the part foretelling the birth of a boy in July to parents who had thrice defied Voldemort". In Book 6, DD admits that Snape made a mistake, that he (Snape) had still been working for Voldemort when he "heard the first half of Professor Trelawney's prophecy". And speaking of her...

The other thing is that I've been thinking that DD did know what was going to happen because Trelawney had been telling him all year. When Harry avoided her in a corridor in Chapter 10, she was looking at playing cards and muttering to herself, "Seven of spades: an ill omen. Ten of spades: violence. Knave of spades: a dark young man, possibly troubled, one who dislikes the questioner..." And when Harry sees her outside the Room of Requirement in Chapter 25, she tells him that DD "chooses to ignore the warnings the cards show...the lightning struck tower...calamity... disaster... coming nearer all the time". I don't think someone as wise as DD ignored the warnings. I think DD prepared himself (and Snape) to do whatever was necessary when the time came; preparations that would have been considerably easier if Malfoy would have told Snape what he was planning to do. The only reason that I don't consider the possibility that Malfoy didn't trust that Snape was really Voldemort's ally is because Malfoy has never been the sharpest knife in the drawer.

Excellent! Again we have some very intriguing and interesting comments, though I think your ideas Ms. Scully maybe the most intriguing of all. Too bad they bring us so very far off topic, it is an area I have thought about and I think it would make for a superb conversation!

Perhaps some information on JKR's own sensibilities on such matters would greatly aid us in resolving this rather plague filled puzzle we have before us.

On the other hand it may only delve us into an even greater pit of perturbance in which only Hagrid's snapping Snape in two could possibly alleviate (quite amusing Skillerz).

Though of course I agree that in the whole scheme of things, Snapes loyalties are not eminently important, however, what those loyalties are revealed to be does, I dare say, have an extordinaryly large impact on how we look at both the human condition and resultantly, the subject matters of life, and the power of love, as well as JKR's notable influence on the literary world.

"I trust Severus Snape" Albus Dumbledore

Sorry if this is a repeat.

There is no doubt in my mind that Snape loathes Harry, however even at the end of Chapter 28 Snape says:

"'Blocked again and again and again until you learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed, Potter!' sneered Snape..."

That kind of sounds like a hint. Even though Snape is leaving for LV after killing DD, he still takes time to "teach" Harry?

It just seems as though he is still trying to help Harry succeed.

And. well...Dumbledore's dead.

Torwards the end of book 6, Dumbledore was insisting on seeing Snape when he was weak from the caves. I wondered, why Snape? Well.... I belive he wanted to see Severus becuse Severus was to perform a certain bit of magic that would turn him into a Pheonix when he died. So that when Severus had to kill Dumbledore it still looked like Severus was on Snapes side. This would also explain why there was a Phonex rising from Dumbledores Tomb!

Anyone intristed in my theroy (Above) please respond!

hiya, well umm dana has my permission to delete or modify or even scream at me because i am on holiday in india and this is the frist time i am back on veritaserum so i might well repeat stuff!!

anyway... i think that well snape is a traitorer ( is that the right spelling?) to the entire wizarding community. why? because he killed dumbledore and not only that, for all these years pretended to dumbledore he was good. if he supported voldemort why didnt he openly say so and stay with the death eaters? because as harry says at the end, snape didnt care about lily or james's death, so then why pretend? in my view this is like as bad as being a traitior becuase he was neither here nor there. so what was the point of pretending that he was sorry and also pretending to be a spy?

p.s really sory if this has already been covered or i have repated stuff!

Hi. I don't typically post, but I had to weigh in and give my opinion on Snape as I have not seen anyone mention my particular theory.

I don't believe that Snape is wholly good or evil. I think the key to his allegiance though lies with Lily.

So far she has been mentioned rarely except that Harry has her eyes. Slughorn also goes on and on as to how good a potions student she was. What if her and Snape were in potions together and had a special relationship, fling? Maybe they even worked on the HBP spells together. What is when Snape heard the prophecy he didn't realize it refered to her son or better yet that it did, but though that it was a way to get James out of the way and leave Lily for him. Lily was given a choice by LV to live. It is mentioned several times that she choose[I] to die. In any case, I think that Snape was devistated that it was on his information that Lily was now dead. He could not continue to support LV. This is the only reason I can think of that Dumbledore would be so sure that Snape could be trusted--not so much because he is good, but because he wanted revenge on LV.

I would like to believe that Dumbledore is not really dead. I think that it could go either way. I do think that Snape killed (or seemed to kill) Dumbledore on his order.

So there you go...for what's its worth.

Hi everyone!

I fully support the theories that Snape killed Dumbledore under his instructions and that Lilly Potter is the key to the reason why Dumbledore trusted Snape.

JKR said that there's something HUGE we are still to know about Lilly and as it was post above, Lily was also good at potions, maybe they bonded. I don't know. Plus, Harry only knows that Snape hated James and Sirius. Saying that Snape hated Lilly is purely speculation.

On Chapter 25, Dumbledore says:

A crazy thought: what if DD wanted to die earlier than Draco tries? But it would be really crazy, no, forget about it.

Somebody asked what if DD needed Snape to transform him into phoenix... I don't know what to say

Yeah, I really understand people who say "Snape is evil, how could he kill DD and all of you who claim that Snape's still on the good side are crazy". Many, many evidences- almost all- show that Snape's a traitor. Maybe my fault is that I ALWAYS read between the lines in all books. And it worked in books 1-5, so why shouldn't it work now? And what's between the lines, makes an excellent story, forgive me, much better and interesting than without reading between the lines. If Rowling made Snape 100% evil, I'd be dissapointed, I don't want clues for people such as: "Don't give people chance to change a bit". And I simply trust DD was right. I'm sorry. Riddle didn't fool him and he pretended to be all cute and nice.

Appologies if i am repeating and stealing someone elses theory i have read alot of the old threads and havent seen this idea but due to the shear side it is not inconsevable i missed it.

I think that Snape is outright Evil. I am not entirly convinced he fully supports Voldemort but i think he is working against the order. I believe this mainly because i think he really did murder DD when DD did not expect him to. In Order fo the Phonix when Sirius dies Harry trys to hold onto a thread of hope that he may still be alive this is the same as in Book 1 when he sees the mirror he has a hope his parents are not really gone. This is a common symptom of the initail human reaction when a person one cares for deeply dies. Most of the justification for DD still being alive i feel is merly an example of this, Harries desire to believe DD is not really dead.

I do not think that DD would have wanted himself to die infront of two of his students and this is why i feel that Snape must have killed him although im leanign towards Snape being evil im not totally convinced however i feel DD is dead.

You don't think that DD wanted to be killed in front of these 2 young men. Oh yes, this is a strong argument indeed. But let me show mine: it's a war. I don't think it's enough, I don't think that killing is the right thing to do when you have enemies, but it's a war. It's better to be killed in some purpose than to let kiddies kill without higher purposes. Cruel, but that's the world is.

I've downloaded some interviews with Rickman and it's interesting how he speaks about his Snape and The Prisoner... Rickman says that Snape is so mean to his students and during watching the scenes you think: Why this mean guy is protecting the kids he doesn't like?

And that is the question... why he protects Harry when he flees?

That's interesting, Chibt, and no, I can't say I've come across anyone who's looked at it from that perspective before...about him not wanting to die in front of his students.

But then, I think that you have to look beyond the books here to Jo's feelings about the "arbitrary" nature of death and those similar comments that she made after she killed Sirius off. I think she believes strongly in not protecting children from the realities of life and she's been unafraid to put vaguely controversial things in the books before (the violence, blood and guts, veiled references to drugs/racism/genocide/prejudice etc) so I don't think that she would be afraid of having Harry and Draco see someone die. Quite the oppposite, actually. Perhaps, having shown both of these two antithetical characters what it actually is to take a life and see that person die, Dumbledore was hoping that they both would think twice about their seemingly set-in-stone destinies.

I don't think Harry will kill anyone in the end - I think there will be another solution. He can't kill because he knows it's wrong - Draco can't kill because he hasn't got the guts to. Both very different motivations, but still the same overall result.

I've drifted slightly there, I know, but the point is that this reasoning is very interesting, but I don't think it's a valid explanation for why Snape must be evil.

And we also really can't get around the fact that it is very, very unlikely that Dumbledore would plead for his life. I know that's been discussed before, but there hasn't really been a very plausible explanation presented for why he might do that.

Tonks879 - interesting, but no...I don't think so. I think when Dumbledore called for Snape it was because he knew that, becasue they'd made a previous arrangement, he would be the only one who would be able to either help him, or ultimately do what needed to be done to deprive the DE's of the victory. Dumbledore is definitely dead and he hasn't been transformed or hidden or anything else...I honestly don't believe Jo would do that. It defies all the points she has said before that she's trying to make about death.

Anyway, I'm a little pressed for time right now and there are a few other things that people have said that I'd like to comment on, so I'll drop by later for that...

Yes I agree with Dana_Scully- death is in the books always shown as something you can never take back, and Voldemort spends his whole life to avoid the death- so it would be very weird if there was some spell or possibility of transfiguration. And still is there the picture in Dd's office. I hope he will speak from it to Harry, but on the other side it seems a litle too easy, for Harry to have a chance to speak with Dumbledore everytime he wants... I rather think that Hogwarts will open in next year, and even if Harry won't come back there he would be able to go there any time he wants to.

In my opinion Snape is really on the good side. But not that he'd look like that:)