Thanks Louise for keeping the rules going.

I haven't been on here in ages, but I always love talking about why R/Hr are wrong and the same for H/G.

I love Ron as a character, I always say that first cause people often assume that those of us who root for H/hr do it because we hate Ron, and I don't.

But I also don't think that Ron is a good match for Hermione. I think that Ron will only be happy with someone who is like his mother, a homebody. I don't see Hermione in that way at all. Not that I don't see Hermione as maternal, because I do think she has a maternal streak, certainly it comes through when she is chastising the boys about their responsibilities etc, but I don't see Hermione as a domestic goddess type woman. i see her as career oriented and she will likely out do most any man with her success. It takes a strong man and a certain kind of man to not be threatened by a partner who is more successful than they are, and I don't think Ron is one of those men. I think Harry is the kind who be able to separate his success from hers, support her and be proud of her while still being successful in his own right.

I think Ron is a very loyal friend, but as a lover he would prove to be jealous and petty. Look how poorly he treated poor lavendar when he was ready to break up. He couldn't even be direct with her, he just avoided her etc.

Harry is so much a better match for our Hermione. But I don't know if JKR will let us see that in the last book. I am beginning to think that she may just leave it somewhat open ended and allow people to continue the debate for years to come.

Unless Harry dies ( please, Jo, don't do that to us), I won't be convinced that Ron and Hermione stay together even if the seventh book sort of hints that they do. I will always hold out the belief that at some point, she and harry will have a moment, when they realize their feelings. I think it will hurt Ron, but his innate loyalty and love for his friends will win him over.

I have much to say on the topic, but am not feeling very organized in my thoughts right now. Perhaps later, I will add more.

Beautifully stated, Madam Pomfrey. I completely agree. I see this as being more to the point, than any speculation over whether or not readers 'like Ron'. I personally do not, but I realise that my own personal dislike of Ron is beside the point and doesn't answer the most critical question - are Ron and Hermione in fact, "suited to one another"? From what I've read thus far the answer is 'no'. (I don't have to like a character to be able to admit that they are well-suited to another character.)

The fact that Ron is not only intimidated by Hermione's high-achieving ways but is envious of her ability to outshine him, while she, on the other hand constantly underestimates or belittles him (both inadvertently and deliberately), doesn't bode too well for a good relationship. I also tend to keep in mind that Rowling stated that she has based Ron on her best friend in high school Sean, and that R/H is not unlike the way that they used to interact....

Ron and Hermione are friends ( - and sometimes, not even that!) But, the main factor that characterises R/H for me is not just the disagreement but the constant, childish competition - over Harry, over who is more loyal, over magic, over knowledge, over social status (the Slug Club fiasco), over dates, over who's wrong and who's right, over who's the more romantically 'experienced' person, and so on. They're always trying to prove each other wrong, or out-do each other, hence the perpeutal put-downs etc. I always get the feeling that Ron is trying to put Hermione in her place, and that she in turn doesn't really respect him or regard him as a true equal. Hermione almost always doubts Ron (and assumes that he's either wrong or will fail), while Ron rarely supports Hermione or backs her up in a situation. If anything, he is more likely to stand aside, or stand against her (in favour of someone else) than stand by her side as an equal.

Yes, he'll defend her against attackers, but only when he perceives her as a (potential) damsel in distress - a role which Hermione's strength seems ill-suited for. What I don't see however, is a dynamic of mutual appreciation or reciprocal support.

The Lav-Lav/McClaggen drama of HBP, seemed more like the clumsy attempt of two insecure teens with limited dating experience, to out-do each other and prove to one another, (and to themselves) that they were indeed desirable and dateable after all. There was disrespect on all sides - disrespect for the people that they were using in order to score cheap points, of each other, and above all, of themselves. As I have repeatedly said, they seem to draw out each other's weaknesses rather than their strengths. I also couldn't help but notice that the one thing that they weren't trying to do throughout the entire ringmarole was reconcile, draw closer to one another and end the fighting - which, is what people who truly care about one another, generally try to do.

I understand that the 'opposites-attract' scenario involves banter - but even while it is heated, it is supposed to have a fliratious, witty, excited and above all pleasurable aspect for both the reader, and the two characters involved, as they test their wits against each other. (Even when Darcy is offended by Elizabeth's rudeness towards him, he can't help admiring her or being forgiving; even as she 'dislikes' him, she can't help but being amused and deriving some kind of enjoyment out of their encounters.)

Can you honestly say that this is the case with R/H? While Ron and Hermione don't seem to be able to avoid disagreeing, it doesn't seem to me as if they enjoy the process at all, and usually emerge from their encounters genuinely hurt or offended. They never seem to flirt with one another or take any of it lightly. It seems to me as if they battle against one another in dead earnest, and there is something dull, heavy and bruising about their fights. They don't battle to experience the spark of overwhelming attraction, but to win. They want to defeat, or even humiliate the other one.

The situation in HBP dragged on because neither of them seemed to have any notion of how to break the stalemate, and take things in a new direction.

Some would argue that they're young and don't know how to openly express their feelings for one another, and can't effectively communicate. But isn't that the problem with this pair? Why is it that the most straighforward thing (that any functioning couple, or potential couple would manage to sort out) always spirals into a much bigger drama than need be? As a 'couple', they are so incompetent at sorting their crap out. That's what annoys me about these two - not just the nature or the fighting but the fact that they often fight about nothing at all, or fight about important issues, in deeply tirival ways that never really address the issue at hand.

The second question is - are they even attracted to each other? It's taken as a given that R/H have a serious case of UST, which we have little actual evidence for. We've read Harry's physical asessment of Herminone and vice versa ('pretty in periwinkle blue robes', 'taller and more fanciable than ever' etc.); we see Ron's embarassing, uncontrolled attraction for Fleur, Harry assessing Cho as very pretty, and even his 'monstrous' out-of-the-blue hormonal lust for Ginny...but funnily enough, we never even discover what Ron or Hermione think of each other on a purely physical level - even though according to some, they are wildly, sexually conscious of one another. I wonder...

Does he even think she's pretty? Does she think he's handsome? Do they even see each other as physically desirable? Yet, despite this absence of information, we're supposed to assume (for some reason) that they have raging UST. Yet when I think about it, I find their relationship oddly immature and sexless. Is it possible that we're reading more into the competitive aspect of their relationship, than is actually there?

And is it possible that they are too? Their feelings run high, they always bicker and clash, so they assume (like everyone else), that it 'must' be sexual or 'romantic' tension instead of plain old disagreement and incompatibility. And friends sometimes take each other for granted, assuming that the other one will always be there and nothing will change - only to become highly upset when these comfortable assumptions are shattered and change does occur. It wouldn't too hard in that situation for insecurity to turn into possessiveness, and for possessiveness (and a fear of change) to be mistaken for 'lurve'.

They want to know that the other one will always be there for them, and that they matter to them - they want that guarantee, that stability. But it doesn't seem to me as if they're looking for real emotional intimacy with one another. To become closer would require growth in their relationship, rather than the stasis that we generally see with H/R.

The only definitive proof that we have of how they physically see each other, is as far back as book four, where Ron certainly doesn't think Hermione is attractive - either to him, or to anyone else. I admit, that things could have progressed on from there, but again, the idea that Ron now sees her as attractive hasn't been written into the text. Maybe it's there but I'm just not reading it properly. Perhaps it's a case of poor writing on JK's part, or an indication that the supposed 'lust' is really an assumption on the reader's part.

But if Ron and Hermione want each other, the question remains - why?

Hmm... you know, I don't think they do. Do you remember how floored Ron was in Goblet of Fire to think that ANYONE would take Hermione to the ball? That's not flattering. He doesn't think anyone else will see her as desirable, so it comes as a huge shock when an internationally renowned Quidditch star takes her on his arm.

And does Hermione see Ron as attractive? Meh. It's hard to say. Maybe if he had glasses and messy hair and a lightning-bolt scar she'd find him attractive ...

Anyway, I just hope Rowling is brilliant enough in the writing department to derail this troubled relationship before it gets off the ground

Westerly, may I say, great post to read! And I completly agree. With all of it. If the R/Hr relationship is so 'obvious' and so 'anvil sized' and everyone saw it comming, why are there so many unanswered questions? At least for me ..

Ahh, we all want to know don't we? I think it's because they want to be happy, they want to live a normal life .. and the other person just seems to be .. there. Ron and Hermione have known eachother for a pretty long time now, and even though their friendship has been on it's rocky sides, they are still pretty close. Maybe it's because neither of them wants to go outside their comfort levels and actually put themselves 'out there' and meet other perople/ Or maybe it's because if one of them does .. it ends on a bad note. Or better yet, maybe they've known eachother for such a long time they feel .. protective of eachother?

Clearly I must have missed something here .. I also never found any hints of Ron or Hermione noticing eachother and actually .. saying something. All though it can be argued that that never happend because it's Harry's story. I'm so used to 'reading in between the lines' , I'm sure I've mastered the skill. The H/Hr relationship has many hidden things in it .. but i never really pondered that the R/Hr relationship might have something actually .. deeper then the whole lust drama.

Could there really be something else?
-Dominique