It is not the snogging that matures Ron; it is the fact that he realizes he may need more out of a relationship than just the physical. Prior to his poisoning, he was starting to become bored with the shallowness of his relationship with Lavender. Notice his behavior after he gets out of the Infirmary with Luna--last year, he would not have ever done that. Also, do we really know if Hermione kissed Krum (or where)? All we have is Ginny's word.

On another note, I found it odd that Hermione never cried her eyes out over Ron's NDE like she has done for Harry. Also, where was she when both boys were in the Infirmary? That was odd as well.

Maybe she didn't cry because her emotions ran deeper over Ron? They were so powerful that they went beyond mere tears. (I'm assuming that's how we're supposed to read it.) *ETA* (Just looked over the text. Hermione is silent and when she finally speaks she sounds as if she had a headcold - so I assume that there's our inference.) All I know is that it's about time that Ron stopped being the "boy nothing happened to", but I think it would be more convincing if his experiences (NDE etc.) didn't just end up feeling like a 2nd hand version of much of what has already happened to Harry. Even Hermione's reactions feel worn and second-hand and there is a sense of 'been there, done that."

There have got to be better (and more original) ways to show that Hermione cares for Ron, rather than simply drawing all of these parallels with past siutations.

Yes, exactly...they both have been quite nasty towards each other. I have read theories by some saying that maybe...sit down for this one...

Maybe Hermione and Ron believe the other one likes them, but they do not actually like the other more than friends. If it were not for Harry, would they actually be friends? There could be some UST between them but who hasn't had that with the opposite sex even if we never act upon it. Remember, we are watching this through the faulty, introverted "Harry filter."

Now, that would be one heck of a subplot twist, eh?

I hear ya! It is the way they bicker that bothers me, not the bickering itself. At the end of HBP, it appears that they are finally going to start behaving as friends.

Movies=eyecandy as far as I am concerned. The R/Hr in the movies has been sparse enough to elude to a love triangle within the Trio in the future. I am still ticked at Cloves for giving Hermione Ron's lines and playing up the "girl-power" bit.

I think it would be somewhat ironic if R/H finally became friends - and then moved on to a proper romantic relationship from there. I'd be thoroughly annoyed in fact if this happened seeing that this ship is supposedly based on UST and constant bickering - which = love, remember, while friendship is just boring and completely seperate from romance.

Frankly though, I find it a bit of stretch to see R/H being a friendship that evolves into something more. If they do resettle back into a pattern of (improved) friendship then that's where the development ought to stay in my opinion because the two have shown us what happens to their relationship when a so-called 'romantic element' enters the fray. Complete destabilisation, not only between them, but of the trio. (Harry was right to be concerned in Herbology over what R/H would mean to him as an individual and to the trio.P

As for the movies - well, I'm not a fan of 'canon' Ron who seriously gets on my nerves - but Rupert Grint is far from my imagined Ron, both physically and personality wise. I agree that Ron is severely thinned out in the movies and that looking for R/H in the later films, and in the movie promos of GoF is slim pickings.

This exact same point used to be argued back and forth on the old H/Hr vs/ R/H thread, without resolution. I personally couldn't understand what on earth it was that they saw in each other, given the values that they had, and the things that they were attracted to and esteemed. It seemed to make absolutely no sense.

Because I much prefer Hermione over Ron, I tended to look at the issue in terms of her - but even still, I managed to be fair enough to wonder what on earth Ron would get out of a girl who didn't respect him, who didn't think highly of his abilities, periodically snapped at him, had virtually nothing in common with him, was extremely opinionated and worst of all was clearly fixated on his best friend.

I used to call it Hermione's 'saving-Harry-'thing'', and I'm really not sure what relationship could withstand one of the involved parties investing so much time, energy and interest into someone else. (Hermione is basically at Harry's beck and call.) Who would want to play second fiddle?

How would that work? And as you say Nymphe - Ron is average. It's not simply in terms of academic ability, but in terms of his tastes and sensibility. From what I've seen very average guys seldom pair up with exceptional girls, and if they do, its very short-lived, largely because they can't tolerate the inequity.

Take away the UST and Harry-in-the-middle and what do you have?

So yes I've considered that one at lengt.h But I haven't really thought about the 'sibling' dynamic very much. But you make a very good point there. Very good indeed...

I get that impression too Dominique.

Westerly, I agree 100%. Ron and Hermione seem to have next to nothing in common other than Harry. I have read the argument that "opposites attract", but there is a difference between opposites that complement each other, and those that simply clash. A good girl/bad boy relationship can sometimes work because the good girl learns to get in touch with her wild side, while the bad boy gains some stabilization and becomes more grounded. This would be a complementary relationship. However, in Ron and Hermione's case, they have nothing to offer each other. Hermione is an intellectual, meticulous and forthright, and very compassionate and caring of others. Ron, while not a dummy, is no intellectual and doens't seek to be. He couldn's care less about many of the things Hermione cares strongly about (elf rights, improved international wizard relations, etc) and in fact comepletely disagrees with her on many subjects. Harry, on the other hand, while not entirily agreeing with her on all issues, is at worst indifferent and at best supportive of her beliefs. For two people to have a fulfilling relationship, they need at least SOME common ground.

I also don't feel there is much evidence that Hermione truly cares for Ron. It's clear Ron has feelings for Hermione, but I just cannot see what Hermione would want with someone like Ron. (In fact, she seems far more preoccupied with Harry and whatever he's going through than anything having to do with Ron). One theory I like to play around with is that Hermione picks up on the fact that Ron likes her. This may be why she lashes out at him at the Yule Ball when he gets jealous of Viktor and, quite rudely, chastizes her for accepting the invitation. She is, in a sense, calling him out on his true feelings which she knows are there, but he refuses to admit.

Also, I think it's possible that some of her inexplicably out of character reactions to Ron and Lavander's fling in HBP came from being used to the idea that Ron liked her. When I was in high school, there was a boy who I knew had liked me for several years, but I only felt friendship for him. We went on a couple of dates, but in the end I told him I didn't feel "that way" for him. We remained friends. About a two years after that, I discovered he was dating another girl, and I was overcome with jealousy! It was a strange feeling - not wanting someone, but then also being hurt that they weren't still carrying a torch. I think for someone like Hermione who doesn't exactly have boys beating down her door, it would be perfectly natural for her to feel hurt that Ron's feelings might have waned, even is she doesn't SHARE those feelings. Just a thought.......

Bravo, Elizabeth! Finally, someone has accurately described the entire Ron/Hermione relationship. I personally believe Hermione has never had romantic feelings for Ron, only the "need" for him to show interest in her.

About the love/hate theory: Sometimes having arguments can be an indication of romantic tension. However, I have observed from many forms of literature, manga, and anime that when this form of interaction occurs, there are usually long periods of cease-fire where feelings of mutual care for each other come out. In the case of Ron and Hermione, they are constantly bickering about something, clashing with each other in almost every point of view. This interaction has occurred across the span of several books, not just a couple of scenes here and there. Also, after every encounter, it seems Hermione comes out of it worse than Ron and hurt deeply. How could she ever want to become romantically involved with someone who not only has nothing in common with her, but also always finds a way of putting her in emotional trauma?

Hermione clearly has and always will have feelings for Harry, though, and as a Harmonian, I hope they end up together. However, I have observed that Harry does not yet have romantic feelings for Hermione, which is a frustration for most Harmonians.

As of the end of HBP, I believe the ship standings of the trio are as follows:

No one is with anyone as far as the trio is concerned.

Ron is interested in Hermione, but only in passing.

Hermione is glad to have Ron back as an admirer, but still does not view him romantically. She still worries, loves, and cares for Harry.

Harry is so emotionally torn that he is pretty much severing all ties with anyone but his closest friends. He does not yet view Hermione romantically, and Ginny is pushed to the side, as she is not one of his "closest" friends.
..............................................................................................

As a Harmonian, here's hoping Harry recognizes before the end how important Hermione is to him.

Is it? Personally, I dont think it's very smart of Jo to just say what's going to happen in the seventh book.. She may be pulling our leg, I just dont see the sense of her comming right out and saying what ship is going to sail.. I mean, that's like basically telling us who dies and who doesn't!

Not very smart and hopefully not true...
-Dominique

Absolutely.

I also agree with Jewal that Ron's behaviour towards Hermione (in TGoF) is not only not remotely 'romantic' but is downright insulting. (Though Hermione inadvertently repays him in kind in OOtP when she discovers that he, rather than Harry is a prefect.) There's nothing cute about any of this, and it just reeks of a lack of respect.

I agree Lupin 123.
There's a big difference between disagreeing and simply not understanding or getting the other person.

Harry and Hermione do not always agree but they can openly communicate. Even when they are arguing they at least *get* what the other person is actually saying and where they are coming from which is important. (Even in the wretched HBP think of the heated argument that they have over the identity of the 'Prince'. Harry knows what Hermione is thinking and understood where the main thread of her argument was leading, even if he didn't necessarily want to follow her train of thought. Sure, he disagreed, but he at least understood.)

When those two disagree at least they know what they are disagreeing about. When they get angry with one another, at least it's a clean, straighforward, clear-headed anger that is over something.

Not so with Ron and Hermione. I often feel that they don't even try to understand each other. (In HBP, Ron, as usual, was all primed and ready for a fight in Herbology class and was prepared to leap to conclusions and misunderstand what Hermione was trying to tell him. Just as with the Yule Ball, Hermione basically has to - once again - yell at his sulkiness before he *gets* the point. What kind of 'relationship' is that? Who'd want to be with someone who only got where you were coming from after you shrieked at them? )

I've watched Ron and Hermione argue back and forth over SPEW for instance, and the sad part is that I don't think that either of them would be able to identify what they are *really* arguing over. I don't think that all argument is necessarily negative, but I do think it's largely pointless if the two people involved don't know or can't honestly identify what is at the heart of their conflict.

In HBP (just like TGoF), Ron and Hermione have a big row over something that is not only so trivial as to be pathetic, but the worst part is that is is characterised by the usual misunderstanding and lack of open communication that characterises their relationship. They fall out over Ginny's revelation that Hermione kissed Krum. Big deal. That's what's at the root of all the subsequent drama - but Hermione doesn't even know that this is the reason why they are fighting in the first place.

Naturally, Ron doesn't have the courage or the honesty to be upfront which makes the conflict completely meaningless. What's the point of a fight when one of the parties is kept in the dark and doesn't even know what's being fought over? What does it solve?
But as I keep saying - Ron and Hermione aren't about solving or resolving anything. The 'relationship' is in the fighting.

It also highlights one of the issues that I have with Ron as a character.

His behavior in HBP is an exact replica of his behaviour in TGoF with both Harry and Hermione (which contradicts the claim that Ron is maturing). His anger is often clouded by a sulky non-communicative silence that leads not only to misunderstanding, but a kind of vindictive spite. Harry doesn't really understand why Ron is angry with him about the goblet (until Hermione explains it), anymore than Hermione really understands the motivation behind Ron's sudden brat attack at the Yule Brawl.

Some people are good at deciphering other people's non-communicativeness and getting them to communicate - but Hermione more often than not, doesn't seem to have this knack when it comes to Ron.

None of this is an argument as to who is going to end up with who, but, as a reader, I don't know how many more pages of Ron's and Hermione's often stupid, predictable and unfunny misunderstandings I'm prepared to trudge through. If they actually ever bothered to talk to each other, they would have been together by now. The fact that they obvoiusly don't speaks volumes about the weakness of their so-called 'relationship'.

They're young adutls now. If JK can't have them communicate with each other like two intelligent, somewhat reasonable human beings, then just quit it already. Either these two have some genuine basis for a relationship (aside from teen UST) or (as I strongly suspect) they don't. She couldn't have made it anymore obvious that they don't ever really sit down and talk to each other - so why belabour the point?

Did she say that everyone was in love with the wrong person? Or paired up with the wrong person? Because there is a big difference.

Do you see why I hate it when she does interviews?

Ture.. But I think that's Ron being Ron for you, jumping to conclusions, jealous and protective.. All though I still do believe Ron likes Hermione, which can be a big problem in the last book. But I don't believe Ron is worthy of Hermione, he doesn't deserve her.

Will it all change if they get together? Will they automatically stop bickering over everthing and become all 'lovey-dovey' with eachother? Some people believe the only way for R/Hr to stop bickering is to finally get them together, and all of their 'little problems' will go just go away.. But will they really? You can't just make something dissapear, you need to confront it, talk about it maybe and face it.. three things R/Hr as a couple are not too good at doing.

*Nodds* So true! I even think that Ron's behavior is even worse in HBP then GoF, seeing as what he does to Hermione is a lot worse. Or maybe it is just payback? Hermione made Ron jealous in GoF, and now he's making her jealous in HBP? *sigh* Will it ever stop? Personally, I would want them to just get together if it ment that all this horrible treatment will be stopped, but I know it will still continue, even if on a smaller scale..

Again, I really don't know what to believe, I guess if it's R/Hr in the end... It just is.. I'll accept it, I just won't like it
-Dominique

Do you think that that might be the plan though? That non-R/H supporters might be soooo relieved not to have to put up with anymore boring, immature, unwitty bickering and cruelty that they'd even embrace an R/H ship that put an end to it all - in sheer relief?

And thanks for the interview excerpt Nymphe. If she really intends for R/H to sail then (as usual) she is not making any sense. If she meant to say that "everyone went with the wrong person to the ball, then why doesn't she just say so?

But no. Instead she chose to couch it in terms of 'love', never mind that they're just young teenagers here. So let's waste time, and actually take her at her word.

"Everyone is "in love" with the wrong person?" Well let's see...

Harry is 'in love' with Cho at this time - and that ship has already sailed and sunk. No ship.

In TGoF, Krum has romantic feelings for (and may even be 'in love' with) Hermione - which, ultimately leads to a much bally-hooed kiss and a distinct dead end. No ship.

Cedric is 'in love' with Cho at the time. Well - their ship didn't last for long, though to be fair, his circumstances are rather exceptional....

Neville, while not necessarily 'in love' with Hermione, chooses her as his first pick to go to the ball (before he resorted to Ginny.) Whatever his feelings towards Hermione may have been, there is no N/H ship and I doubt that there ever will be.

Ginny clearly has a massive crush on Harry which JK has tried to insinuate in interviews, is 'love'. Two years later, she finally gets her 'love' and her ship - only for it to boringly fall apart. Current status? No ship.

And Ron in TGoF is exhibiting signs of having "feelings" for Hermione. Presumably, she is the one he is unwittingly, falling in love with. (While is is attracted to and overwhelmed by Fleur's Veela ways, you can't argue that he is 'in love' with Fleur who, funnily enough, is hardly even mentioned at the ball, while he spends most of his time glowering after Vikky and Hermione.)

I guess it could be argued that Hermione's jealous displays over Fleur demonstrates that she is attracted to Ron in turn (and could 'fall in love' with him) - though frankly, it seemed to me as if she didn't give two figs about Ron at the ball and was intent on having a good time 'fraternising' with Viktor and Harry - until Ron's jealousy turned up. But either way...

again - no ship to date. I can only hope it remains this way.

Hmmm. What's the bet that like all the other ill-fated yearnings at the Yule Brawl, Ron was and continues to be 'in love' with the wrong person? (I'm a bit guarded about pronouncing that Hermione is love with or is interested in Ron at the Yule Brawl, because unlike Ron, her behaviour is far more ambiguous and harder to read. I just don't get a sense that she is in love with Ron, at this stage. She just comes off as insulted by his lack or regard and his boorish, destructive behaviour.)

If JK was actually making any sense at all, was consistent and actually meant what she said, instead of playing lame 'interview games' then Ginny 'being in love' with Harry and Ron 'being in love' with Hermione at the Yule Brawl could only mean that they were in love with, to use her words, 'the wrong people'.

Dominique, a lot of your fellow Harmonians feel the same way as you do (and obviously, Harry too!) about the constant bickering between Ron and Hermione! Is that quote from OotP or from HBP? I remember reading it, but I can't recall which book it's from.

This bickering between Ron and Hermione has always grated on my nerves. Personally, I don't see it at all as 'sexual tension'. It's just plain annoying! In fact, R/Hr makes no sense to me. They're just two friends, who enjoy squabbling. Go figure! If JKR does FINALLY pair these two up in her final book, I won't be too surprised. I won't agree with it, and I won't like it, but I won't be surprised. All I can say is that it couldn't possibly be a 'match made in Heaven'!!! One or the other will eventually get tired of their petty squabbles. Who would want to live in that type of a relationship? I know I wouldn't!

That is exactly how I interpret the Yule Ball situation as well, Westerly! I think it is entirely possible that Ron is ticked off because he was rebuffed asking a champion to the Ball, then Hermione (who he assumed couldn't even GET a date ) shows up with Krum, a champion AND his Quiddich idol, and Harry of course IS a champion, which Ron had only recently gotten over being mad about. Once again, Ron is left out of the loop. He can't lash out at Harry again, since they had just made up, so who can he vent his frustration on? Why, his usual punching bag of course....Hermione.

I also agree with Westerly and several others' remarks about Hermione not being jealous of Fleur, but disliking her (understandably) for other reasons.

I have yet to see a single shred of evidence prior to HBP that suggests Hermione has feelings for Ron. And, as I mentioned before in this thread, even the HBP incidents with Hermione throwing hissy fits may be attributable to other causes, but I won't repeat myself.

Perhaps it is too much to hope that this ship will not sail. I guess it is still likely that it will, based on some of JKR's interviews. However, if/when it does happen, it will ruin the books for me to some degree. hermione is my favorite character, and I would hate to see her paired up so poorly. I would rather she left all the romances in the book ambiguous than to sail this ship (and a few others ). At least that way, the debates could continue and fanfiction could thrive without being somewhat tainted by the "real" outcomes.

I believe it’s from OotP actually

Here is what I have to say today. I must admit, I slight peeked into the Venom H/Hr thread, even though it is technically ‘allowed’ I restrain myself from doing so, because it just provokes my anger. But this is something I can’t pass up. I have stated many times over in the H/Hr thread, and other threads that I am pro Ron, meaning that I like his character, just the way it is. But why I am here is because I do not support him with Hermione. See the difference there?

I also still can’t understand how people can be so stereotypical and judge others people simply on the view points of one individual. And no, it wasn’t only one person I see doing this, everybody seems to have this impression that the NON R/Hr shippers dislike Ron! Some do dislike his character, as I dislike Umbridge, or even Voldemort, but I don’t think it’s fair to assume that for everybody.

Now back to the topic. If Ron and Hermione get together, is there really anything we can do about it? I still won’t agree with this ship, unless for some miraculous reason, something changes between R/Hr and they somehow finally click. All though I’m not too big on that concept either, because I think it would be a fake illusion, covering something up… There are hints to R/Hr, and I’ll be big enough to admit that, but there are (as I see it) also hints to another ship, maybe not as obvious, but still there..

I have a lot more to say on that concept, but unfortunately it won’t be too relevant to R/Hr, rather to R/Hr shippers, and I will prevent myself from going any further And if I have in any way gone over the line, I’m sorry in advance.

-Dominique