Hi guys,
I ran a search on "Time Turner" and didnt return anything related to this question, so am posting it...sorry if it has been answered already...
I was just wondering, in Book 3 specifically, when Hermoine and Harry use the Time turner to go back in time and save Buckbeak and all that, when Lupin looked in Maurader's Map and saw Harry and co. going to the whomping willow etc., wouldnt he have seen TWO Harry Potters and Hermoine Grangers?
What do you think the map would show in these cases?
Just wanted to know out of curiousity....

That's a good question. I'd say they'd both have to appear.

If memory serves, Lupin is the one that had the Marauder's Map (it's how he saw Peter was alive). Really, the time frame of when he saw Peter and when Harry and Hermione travelled back in time is what's important. My guess is he saw Peter and took off before they appeared. Or, just as likely, he was looking at the map, but when Peter appeared that distracted him from looking twice at anything else.

Ummm... yeah, good question! Well, maybe future selves don't show...

I've got another question related! Ok, well, you know how they couldn't go out and grab Peter because their past selves might try and kill their future selves? Well, Hermione (past self) would already know what would happen if she saw a copy of herself, and if the future selves explained, she definatly would have caught on. everything could have been sorted out.

well the whomping willow is out in the middle of a field so sirius running after petigrew probably was the first thing lupin saw when he looked at the map and i doubt he would be like o hey theres sirius chasing lupin, lets see who else i can find...

Yea but what if Harry saw himself? He was with Hermione the whole time, and Wizards aren't supposed to meddle with time.

Yeah, it would be a very bad deal if Harry saw himself. But, that's why Hermione was so adimitt about him not doing anything so that he would see himself.

Slightly off-topic, but related to Time Turners...

Even though it's dangerous to mess with time, given the circumstances surrounding his life, I'm curious as to why Harry didn't feel the overwhelming urge to use the Time Turner to go back and save his parents anyway---regardless of the possible consequences?

And sorry, I already posted this question in the general forum for books 1 through 4 before realizing this thread was here...

Just in regards to your thought, I don't know if he was ever really given the chance. I mean, he was sorta thrown back in time with Hermione not really understanding how and he didn't have a lot of time but had a lot of thoughts in his head that he was all dealing with at once. But the priority on his mind was that he had the chance to save his godfather and father's best friend.

But if he did decide to go back, he'd need a much larger timeturner- I mean, they did 'three turns' on that night which took him and Hermione back three hours.... think how many times you'd need to be playing with that thing to turn it back 12 years. Plus the incredible changes in the future that it would create. But I understand what you're saying about the urge to WANT to go back

It is obvious that we have been badgered with the knowledge that we should NEVER mess with time, but lately seeing to PoA movie and reading the book made the time-turners mess with my head.

Okay, yes, I admit it, I have given this too much thought, but it just annoys me. I noticed in Charmed that a particulat time-loop which happened several decades ago, and is a loop which makes the same day happen over and over again.

Okay, now for my actual argument....

Whoever uses a timeturner, ultimately creates a timeloop, because, as noticed in PoA, Harry knew he could perform the patronus, because he had already done it, (and for the fact that the Dememtors left without him doing anything) which means that he and Hermione had already travelled back in time when Harry had passed out. Then he and Hermione go to the hospital wing and use the time-turner and notice all the action while saving Sirius, return to the hospital wing and see themselves go again. It is never-ending. My argument..... if Harry had actually caught Pettigrew, and showed him to the dementors, and Sirius got off (this being after Harry had passed out, so he would have no idea), would Harry and Hermione cease to exist, or at least, have two of them?

It is apparent that, if done correctly, Time-turners create a time warp (or loop), but what if it was not? What if Harry had caught Pettigrew and not returned to the hospital wing, therefore not creating the timeloop, because they would have heard about it before going back in time (from Dumbledore the way they heard from Fudge and Snape talking). There is a slight possibility, or even the fact that Harry reveals himself to himself and he does not go back in time. What would happen? Would there be two Harrys and two Hermiones, or would the fact that they did not go back in time, alter the time-loop, so that the Harry and Hermione that saved Sirius ultimately are erased because the predecessor does not have the need to travel back, therefore eliminating his or their futures.

It is funny that when you write something to try and figure it out, you ultimately confuse youself even more.....I hope you get where I am coming from...

Haha, don't worry dude...I understand exactly what you are saying. My take on it is that if they caught Pettigrew the future Harry and Herimone wouldn't have had a reason to go back in time to begin with (even tho they had alraedy done it) so there would be no loop. Ya, haha it's quite a paradox if you ask me.

The fact that Harry and Hermione see themselves when they go back in time means that they have not yet gone back in time so they are going to still go back in time and the circle will never end.

But i think when they initially go back in time, it seems that they almost just like make copies of themselves. Once they return to the hospital wing and see themselves disappearing, they have just went back into time thus making themselves the people who just walked into the room so the circle is done. Haha ya thats really confusing and im sure no one has no idea what im talking about so im just going to shut up now.

http://www.veritaserum.com/editorials/?view=29

Read "Long Live the Weasel King's" editorial on time-travel.

I totally understand! I watched PoA last night and made myself dizzy thinking about the time-turners. I have gone over and over in my mind how they could actually work and why Harry doesn't go back in time to save his parents, so many questions I have about it but I have finally come to the conclusion that.... HP is just a fictional story and time-turners could never work. *gasp* One of the few times I have actually admitted to myself that HP isn't real

NyMpHaDoRa --

(-a-) The Time-Turner that Hermione had may have been a model that was specifically for turning back hours; maybe there are other models for turning back weeks, months, or years.

(-b-) There may be certain events in the time stream that are more "fixed" than others. The nature of Time is that it is both flexible and constant.

This is a quote from earlier posts of mine regarding Time-Turners:

I'm starting to think that its like The Time Machine movie. Even if you go back in time, that person that you try to save from death is still going to die. Therefore, I don't think Sirius was going to die, thus Harry and Hermione were able to go back.

What does this mean?
-when Harry and Sirius were being attacked by the dementors the first time, Harry managed to save them by conjuring a patronas powerful enough to make them go away...but it cost him...they were both close to death.
-Once he learns about the time turners, he goes back in time to prevent himself and Sirius from being that close to death.
-rinse, lather, and repeat (only with a different thought process from the very beginning).

What else does this mean?
Is the very first "realm" of time different than the rest, including the one we're most familiar with?

Quick......turn on X-Files

I think if Lupin had looked closely, he would have seen two Harry and two Hermione. However, I'm sure he would have stopped short when he looked at Pettigrew with Ron dragged in by Sirius. But just think about Dumbledore who knew all this and was watching from afar, chucking!

I think there's some unbroken time turner left somewhere.

Didn’t Snape look at the map too when he came in to give Lupin the Wolfsbane? Wouldn’t Snape have sneered and questioned why Harry and Hermione were in 2 places at once. It’s kind of ironic that Harry was in two places at once because if anyone remembers, the day Harry’s head was caught in Hogsmeade Snape said something like “You can’t be in two places at once Potter”.

I don't think the map would have picked it up. You see, the map doesn't know about the magicl RoR, does it? I think it's because of the magic of the room. The RoR is magical, and so is the time turner. So maybe being powerful magic of it's own, the map doesn't pick it up?

Eh, just what i was thinking.

Oh god, a time turning thing. Ok, time travel makes my head hurt after two sentances, so i won't dive into it compleatly:

The reason harry and Hermione didn't make huge mistakes, like grabbing petigrew whlie he was in Hagrids cabbin, like Harry wanted to, was because on the first time round, Harry didn't see it happen.

On the first time round, Harry and Hermione were there, like harry, Ron and hermione were there on the second time round for harry and Hermione. On the first time round, harry saw himself congour the patronus. On the second time round, he knew what he had to do, because he saw himself doing it. Ah-brain hurts!

Ok. If we think about it, we didn't see buckbeak die on the first time round, because he never really did die, did he? harry and Hermione stoll (sp?) him. They just thought he did. On the second time round, harry and Hermione realised that they could save him, so they did, knowing that's what happen before they went time turning.

If harry wanted to use a time turner to go back in time and do something drastic, like say, rescue Dumbledore, it wouldn't work. Because 1: No one's aloud to see him, or the two harry's at the same time and 2: Dumbledore did die-he saw the avada Kedavra hit him. What can we conclude from this-

Time travel can't reverse death.

Yep, that's what i have concluded-time travel can't reverse death. Fullstop, case closed drive home safe. *Closes briefcase and walks out of room*

This is very interesting as some modern quantum physics professors have developed many theories on this very topic of time loops.

One theory states that in the event that one travels back in time, the actions that one takes will not effect the outcome of their future. In fact, these actions may have contributed to the situation present pre-timetravel. In short, whatever you do while you travel back in time, your present (the time you originated from) will be the same.

Another theory suggests that when a person travels back in time and effects the actions of themselves in the past, another dimension is created that shares the same past as the original dimension, but has a different future (ex. a person travels back in time and stops the first world war. Our dimension would have had a world war as well as a second world war, but the parallel dimension created would not have had a first or second world war. The outcome obviously different.) I like to call this theory a time fork ---E

These are two of the more popular theories, so if you want to know the other theories you'll just have to look them up

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ok thats really interesting. because that means that when you use the time turner that until time catches up to the point you use it your destiny is completely predecided. you have no free will. now does that mean that the same goes for everything that happened in that same period the first time round you experienced it? if so it means that divination is not so vauge like firenze would have you believe. but it would only be possible to know the future for those periods that someone has used a time turner. perhaps this explains Trelawney's prophecies.

i hope that makes sense

I really hate time travel in stories because everything loses it’s impact. The events won’t be taken seriously since the reader will keep thinking ‘just use a Time Turner and fix it’. It’s like being able to hit the reset button on a vid game to try again. But JKR had to introduce the concept since it figures in later books. Since this thread also talks about multiple people I want to have a say on this!

We know you’re not supposed to see yourself, but what if you’re a twin? You see yourself all the time. But let’s take this even further, *evil grin* what if Fred and George aren’t twins but actually one person. Fred OR George went back in time to fix events. In the first book it’s stated they are exactly alike (twins never are) and Mrs. Weasley (a witch) can’t tell them apart. I think Mr. Weasley knows something about this since Fred got punished but not George when they both tried to get Ron to do an ‘Unbreakable Vow’. Man, is Molly going to be ticked she had to give birth twice over to the same person!

Question...

If Fred and George are the same person, then how did this person get ahold of a time turner in the womb? Also, using a time turner does not make you younger depending on how far you go back.

Very unlikely.

- Phoenix

Shrinking solution turned Neville’s frog into a tadpole. I think de-aging wouldn’t be a problem in the wizarding world. Okay I’ll give you being born twice would be far-fetched. (but a funny scene to imagine the reaction!) But I think there’s something going on about Fred and George. I would think one of them would bravely dare (a Gryffindor trait) to break all the rules and attempt to correct an event in the past by becoming his own twin.

well thats a really hard one to make happen... how do you think the older people in the family like percy and such would react to suddenly having an extra little brother? it would be a bit suspicious. unless you did the buffy thing and modified the memory of every single person to create a person out of nowhere. it's pretty far fetched.

I was thinking maybe it was the day of Fred/George’s birth. He would go back mod the memories of people present during birth and become an infant again. In anycase this plan would be difficult, but not entirely impossible for wizards.

Going back to GoF Fred did cross the ageline to place his name into the cup. It wasn’t until George rushed in as well that they both got kicked out. In the movie version they both jump in with arms linked. It probably caused a logic problem for the enchantment surrounding the cup.

Another thought was that Mr. Weasley stopped future Fred from changing things by memory charming him and making him young again. It seems that Fred isn’t aware that he is from the future and that George is himself!

Okay enough with Fred and George. If Harry and Hermione messed up when trying to save Sirius and Buckbeak couldn't they just use the timeturner over again to fix it?

It would be extremely complicated because they would have to not see themselves doing the wrong thing to mess it up on a do-over. In trying not to see themselves it's possible to make the situation even worse.

Maybe on a second try they could go the castle, convince Neville to go to the woods full of dementors and a raging werewolf to save Siruis, Buckbeck, Hermione and Harry.

Time travel is so complicated! Not an easy solution at all.

You know all of this would be much easier if you had a twin. Seeing yourself wouldn’t be so mentally shattering. Like Fred and George.


There is never enough Fred and George!

The thing with time-turners and loops and all that, interesting as it is, it's just so damn confusing!!! And also impossible. I mean, even in the wizarding world, I believe going back in time shouldn't be possible. Time is wind that passed, you can't ask it to go back.

Sigh... Too complicated. Time ain't a videotape you just rewind to record on top of it.

Time travel always makes my head hurt but i love to discuss it, so i'll try not to go too into it. Lol.

Anywho, well, the first time round in PoA, the Harry and Hermione have a sort of echo, if you could call it that, following them, doing exactly what Harry and Hermione are going to do later. That's how the patronus is performed by himself that saved Harry's life, and how Buckbeak was saved.

That probably didn't make sense, but nothing i'm about to say will make sense, so just bear with me.

So depending on what time the real Harry and Hermione are in, the other echo is, well, just an echo. So i don't think they would have appeared on the map.

Either that, or they would have and Lupin didn't see them. Or did and thought he was seeing things.



Because that would mean they would have to make sure they wern't seen by two sets of themselves. The origonals and the ones who messed up. And if they mes up again, and went back in time again ... well, you'd just get quite confused and might end up killing yourself like Hermione said.