dont hate me if im wrong but harry has a really big problem- besides voldy. HE NEEDS TO LEARN OCCLUMENCY!!! he has so much important information that could really help voldy.

sur right now voldy's using doing occlumency right now but he could easily turn it around and break harrys defenses. this presents so many problems like the wherabouts of the Order (if theres still one), that harry loves ginny , how important the weasleys are to him and this list could go on and on!!!
Please tell me if im wrong!!!

it is important that Harry be able to hide his emotions and surface thougths a bit better, but those are his greatest strengths. the most powerful emotion, love, is what he needs to be Vol. if he were able to hide those emotions, who Harry is would not be as strong. emotions help to form Harry's personality. without them bubbling up all the time, it would be hard for him to be as effective, such as with the partonus charm. also, if he began to bury the feelings for those he loves, i believe he would lose a great deal of motivation.

I think Harry definetly needs to learn occulmency but unfortunantely, it seems Harry tends to disregard important things people tell him to do. I.E. occulmency, getting the memory from slughorn, etc..

I think that Hallar_2000 is right. Even though there is a possibility of Voldemort breaking through Harry's defenses again, it is probably not a good idea for Harry to hide his emotions. We know that he must defeat Voldemort with love, and so it seems to me that he would need to express his emotions as strongly as possible.

I see everyones point, how hiding harry's emotion would sort of defeat his purpose. something like that anyway. But then, it was shown during Harry's fight with Snape that unless harry learned to close his mind, harry had no chance. snape knew exactly what Harry was about to do because Snape could read Harry's mind. How is Harry supposed to fight Voldermort with this hindering him. Sounds very fishy to me. I do understand that love is going to save Harry but surley he still needs some sort of other talent?? hmmm getting confusing.

I'm going to echo Hallar_2000 a bit here. Yes, Harry wears his emotions on his sleeve so-to-speak. This has both blessed him and burdened him, i.e. his patronus and inability to perform occlumency. Reading this topic made me remember JKR's interview when she compared Harry's inability of occlumency to Draco's ability of it. She said that Draco was better able to store various aspects of himself/character and we did see him a change. He wasn't the bully we remember from previous.(I know this isn't the exact reason, but it does fit somewhat.) Can you imagine Harry this way? I just don't see him ever learning and mastering occlumency because it's just not in his character; Harry uses his feelings and pride and rightousness to fuel his power.

I beleive that it is important for harry to hide important aspects of hislife such as the order and the weasleys. however, he can still express love without giving who or what he loves away. i think it is two different aspects in which harry must learn to conceal what must not be known and to express the love that needs to destroy. I know this sounds difficult but let me see if i can simplify it.

In the presence of voldy and others he hates he needs to block out memories and images that could be useful to voldy. occlumency is all about blocking memories, not emotions. if harry can get his emotions under control he can use his love emotion, determination and power to keep intruders away from his memories and thoughts. occlumency will help keep them out while love will help harry defeat evil. I hope this was easier to follow.

I'll join to these who say Harry won't manage to learn Occlumency. Take Bellatrix, Snape or Draco for example: they generally are people who you don't know what sits inside their heads. It's much more easier to know what sits inside of Harry. Besides, Harry can be easily fooled. Do you remember when he knew it's important for him to learn Occlumency and he was fooled by LV when Hermione said that something was wrong with his vision?

i agree that hell probably disregard peoples heeding but like i said he needs or should. i dont me his emotions- because thats just harry. rather he needs to hide his knowledge- give voldy the benifit of the doubt, hallar_2000

Well, sorry guys HP is realy abd at occlumency and will alway be bad at it, never at the level of LV, Snape or DD.

It's basicaly an idiosincrasy of HP, if you whant it's part of the "Love" part of it's magical power. When you love you what to share, open your self, be empatic. So the nature itself of HP prehibits selfishness, closure or all negative force...

So yes he need to control is emotion, learn a bit better how tu use occlumency, but the strongest force that he may apply to block LV is showing im love...

Does anyone think that Harry will learn the art of legilimency for the final book? Ever since I read that Voldemort could do it, I've toyed with the idea that maybe that skill was "transferred" to Harry also, but he's just never tried it.

*~drhpluvr4l~*

Yes, I think Harry will find himself using this. Perhaps he will read Snape's mind at their next meeting and find out exactly what motivates Snape.

He may use it somewhat accidentally, too, as wizards do with other types of magic before they've really learned to control them as Harry did when he was younger.

And it is curious to wonder if Harry could do it to Voldemort since Voldemort has done it to him so much.

I really doubt that Harry would be able to use legilimency on Snape as Snape has effectively been able to close his mind to either Dumbledore or Voldemort, or both, for quite some time. I just don't think Harry will be able to crack into that.

I do think that it is imperative for Harry to learn Legilimency, though, and after that battle with Snape, he certainly has the motivation.

I agree with Passerby and I think that if LV really transferred this power to Harry, Harry would have known this. He already sees trough LVs eyes and can feel his feelings. It's enough.
And I don't think that someone who was enable to learn Occlumency, would learn Legilimensy in one year..or even less. Sure, he's more skilled for that..but still..He'll defeat Voldy with something else..let's say..love

Harry has only once been able to effectively read Snape's mind, and that has not been through Legilimency but through defending himself against Snape's Legilimency with a Shield Charm, which rebounded Snape's spell.

"There is no doubt that it was effective," said Snape afterwards.

Hopefully, Harry will remember this when Voldemort uses Legilimency against him. It might come in handy.

I must agree with Passerby and kats, he will not be able to penetrate Snape with Legilemency, even if he manages to harvest the power. I also think that eventually he may be able to learn Occlumency with Hermione on the job, they have a long adventure, and he may take to the task easier with someone he doesn't loathe. He did manage to prevent Snape once, once he can control his emotions, he may be able to. Besides, at the end of HBP, Snape does tell him that without a closed mind and non-verbal spells, he will never win. He needs to learn to do both effectively in order to win - I am sure that is what Snape was saying even if he was bad and taunting him or good and helping him. Hermione will aid in the teaching, and I think he will have other help, perhaps Slughorn helps, he is good at legilimens and Occlumens afterall. Harry will learn it, I think it is important that he does, otherwise death eaters like Bellatrix can penetrate his mind and hurt him. Besides, if Draco can do it, Harry is bound to learn how.

i completly think that harry will learn how to do it.
i think that it will be one of the things that helps harry to defeat voldemort

I think that it is essential to learn it, therefore being able to use Voldy's pain from child hood and lonliness against him. Mocking his muggle father might anger him into making a mistake. I think that Hermione will make sure that Harry becomes efficient at it.

I agree with Passerby and I think that if LV really transferred this power to Harry, Harry would have known this. He already sees trough LVs eyes and can feel his feelings. It's enough.
And I don't think that someone who was enable to learn Occlumency, would learn Legilimensy in one year..or even less. Sure, he's more skilled for that..but still..He'll defeat Voldy with something else..let's say..love


on page 829 in Ootp harry said he didn't try to learn occlumency he said he could've stopped himself having the dreams

gaburdette- that is an excellent analysis. One could argue that the reason he wasn;t able to do this after that lesson was fear that kicked in from Snape's revenge on seeing his mind. That his attempts were feeble because he did not wish to endure Snape's anger more than he had to.

hmmm... if Harry has an innate ability as Legilimens, why would he have been so completely clueless that time Ron was not talking to him or when he wanted to ask Cho out for the ball? Even if this ability is untapped and subconscious, Harry's distress at those moments should have triggered some understanding of the other person's state of mind. Instead, he is completely mistaken about what the other thinks and feels.

That is true Bumblebee that his inability to tap in the powers when he wanted to should have been reflected by his incidental use when his emotions were high. I see your point and understand your questioning. It was a good thought though.

I do beleve Harry will be help with occlumency by someone unicspeted. Thare are people aronwd he with a lot of traning. Harry needs all the help he can get to beet him.

I think that some how some way that harry should learn it but not use it unless he knows that voldy is ussing occulmentary sp? or ligenemacy sp? whatever it is that voldy would use to read harrys mind but yhea he should find out how or when voldy is using it then block him from reading his mind for that time then stop when voldy stoped.. if your confused email me.

Ok sorry for that, this is what I meant:

QUOTE
well what I meant was that Harry should learn to defend aginst legilimency (if thats whats used to read minds im sorry but i forgot) but not use it entirely durring the battle with voldemort because, yes, his emontions give him his power however, there might be some way to tell when someone is using legilimency and if Harry can learn to tell when someone is doing that then he could defend when voldemort tries to read his mind in the fight for that minute or so. This way voldemort cant find out what harry is thinking durring the fight. Or...... actully you gave me an idea because maby Harry can use that to his advantage.
Ok say there in the middle of the fight, Voldemort tries to read Harrys mind, and since Harry knows Voldemorts past then mabye he could think of that when Voldemort is reading his mind, destracting Voldemort and then give Harry a split second to fire a spell or a curse at Voldemort!

Has anybody noticed that Slughorn is an 'accomplished Occulems" according to Dumbledore?

It really stood out to me.

Remembering that Slughorn also knows about (or at least suspects) the Horcruxes, it seems Harry could go to him for 'secret' Occulemency and Legilimency training (since they seem to go hand in hand).

I don't think Snape or even Dumbledore actually knows how to defeat Voldemort, although Dumbledore obviously believes it has something to do with love, and that Harry's scar (link) allowed him to enter Voldemort's mind undetected without Legilimency training.

One thing for sure, Harry can't defeat Snape in a duel without some training (although he did beat him in the DADA lesson when Snape was going to curse him; probably because it was an instinctive/reflex Protego that Snape couldn't have seen coming).

But I can't help thinking this is all a bit of a red herring, and the locked room in the DOM that Dumbledore indicated somehow contained Love will feature in the final solution.

Posssibly it will be used with Harry's Legilimency like link?

I think that both will come into play big time. I think one of the main reasons LV is so afraid of DD is because he is a better Legilimens then LV. If this is true then it will be important for Harry to learn both in order to protect himself and to beat LV.I think that the reason that Snape is so good at occlumency is that DD taught him everything he knew in order to keep LV from knowing which side Snape is really loyal to. I think that Harry will need to use both in order to beat LV in the end, maybe he will be able to break into LV mind and see what he truly fears ext.. and use that against him. Just a thought.

i really think he does have to be but it wont be from snape. hes evil. its settled. he said it loud and clear

i dont think its gonna happen tohugh

Snape even tells Harry that he won't be able to defeat anyone until he learns to keep his mouth shut and his mind closed. In order for Voldemort to not know exactly what Harry is about to cast and be able to deflect it, Harry is going to have to become skilled in Occlumency.

i think it greatly important that harry learns occlumencyand i think hermione will realise this and make him clear him mind everynight! or someone else who knows how to do it! but what ever he does he needs to learn it because he has so much that lv can use!!!

It mite save him in the end if he dose not though. There are so many people that will help him in so many ways. That i think he will mack it.

I don't think that Harry was that bad. He had to learn with Snape without really knowing how to do. And he could stop Snape when he really didn't want him to see something.

If Harry was so bad at it, why would have Snape used a pensive. I think he suspected that when Harry discovers how to do, he'll be very skilled. When DD said something about old hatred between Snape and James - then Harry was still too big and it was a mistake of his not to have forseen the problem, it's maybe he knew Harry could if not hindered by not knowing theory.

Maybe he'll be a better Legetimens than Occlumens.

By the way, Dumbledore was able to show his feelings as well as being an occlumens

Harry's inability to close his mind is one of his greatest strengths. It was that inability that drove voldemort away when he was posessing Harry in book 5. Kill off a couple more people that Harry loves and put him in close proximity to voldemort and voldy is in trouble.

I guess, we are all agreeing that Harry should learn occlumency. Its very important in order to protect himself against Voldy. yes. even if Voldy is already shoting his mind to Harry that doesnt mean that he should stop practicing occlumency right? 'coz if Voldy would fouund out that Harry knew about the horcruxis and he has been after the horcruxis then, Harry would be having much bigger problems in finding them.
Harry's strength is not bvy his inability to shut his mind but his ability to love and the fact that the more his loved once is hurt or being killed, his very emotional about it and that gives him enough courage, will and determination to find justice and to protect as much people as possible.

Hey People,

Bear with me on this one, I was searching to see is there was a topic on this issue, as I had an interesting thought about it, that then got developed; my thoughts are as follows:-

1) The fact that the two different techniques and abilities have been defined in such a way is important.

2) All the trio not just Harry will have to master the techniques, to avoid knowledge of what they are doing getting back to people they don't want it to, not just the Death Eaters.

3) Emotions are not memories or even as such thoughts.

4) Harry and Voldemort are linked mentally, that has been shown most clearly in OoTP.

5) Harry in OoTP was beginning to master Occlumency the problem was he didn't practise it.

6) In relation to 2 Harry has shown he can master spells quickly look at accio, when he has to he does, pressure makes you work harder.

7) When snape is teaching Harry we are never certain which side he is on, and with respect to the idea that Harry may have a dormant Legilimens ability Harry has never trusted Snape

8) If Harry can master both strands of the mind maybe he can in turn reverse the link Voldemort used, think of the possibilities, if he could get into Voldemorts mind and block Voldemort from realising that he is there then he could not only find out where the horcruxi are but how to destroy them. It also leads to other conclusions for the series that would be widely off topic.

9) Harry can throw off the Imperius Curse so mastering Occlumency shouldn't have been such a problem as it seemed see 7.

Apologies if this seemed to go off topic but thoughts lead into a maze sometimes, in which each topic is a connecting path.

yah harry really needs to work on that eh?! or voldy might read his mind and then pouf!
no more harry! :( i really wan thim to live i think we all do eh?? i he totally :wub: loves :wub: ginny and hermione so :wub: ron and ron so :wub: loves hermione!!!!!!

Uh? Yah.. that has nothing to do with this topic, anyways. Harry needs to learn it because LV is putting stuff in his head, he cant control it, and if he learns Occlumency he can do Legilimency then he can read other peoples mind obviously, and Im guessing hes probably the second most powerful wizard in the world now he can do great things, terrible.. but great lol.

I am quite sure that occlumency and legilimency will play an important role in the book 7. I also believe that Harry has a great natural and given (by the scar) talent for legilimency which he will use against Voldemort keeping close eye contact (Lilly's eyes!). I wrote more detailed about it here but my brother believes that's a silly theory So I was happy to notice this thread and see Gaburdette thinking exactly the same thing. All that Harry needs now is a good training. Remember Harry was very bad in conjuring the Patronus charm before training and now what? So I believe he is able to learn it. Snape is one who could teach him (I believe he is a good guy, but this theory belongs to another thread), but, if not Snape, maybe Slughorn could help.

Hi

so if Harry wants to kill Lv he will have to learn Occlumency/Legilimency. But who is going to teach him JKR never said who else can do it. Maybe some one from the Order can teach him (if there still is an Order)

Hope you Agree

I think the most important thing for HArry to learn is Occlumency and the non-verbal spells. we saw that he neaded to be able to do that in HBP. But i think he will learn occlumency, perhaps legilimency, it would help him when to look after memories in the hunt for horcruxes. but most of the death eathers can legilimency so i dont think in will help him on that point.

I dont think many people are fully accomplished occlumens or legilimens like Dumbledore or Voldemort. It takes a great deal of effort and mind control to do them, and we have only heard of a few people to be able to do them sufficiently enough for them to work.

But i think Harry has the power and control to do it, and i believe it is essential to learn both arts if he wants to become a better dueller(sp?) and they will help in the search.

I think needs to master both occulumency and legilimency because they can be very tools when fighting the dark forces. Example: extracting information from death eaters or finding traitors in the order. however due to the little harry has and the fact that he must track down horcruxes i really doubt he will be able to spare time to learn those two much needed skills.

Legilimancy is a skill of the mind or head. The scar has been the main thing we've heard about Harry's head, and that's a remnant of LV. Harry has all along been a prodigy in terms of his gut. In all the books, we hear constantly of Harry's stomach, guiding him, chiding him, alerting him to things. The books are full of appetite references--Harry leaves the Dursley's in HBP not even realizing he has not been eating, and gets hungry only when with DD on his way to the Weasleys, where love abounds. In HBP we hear more about his chest, his heart--maybe his stomach grew up a little as romance started to matter more.

So I wonder if what Harry will be good at will be heart-governed, not head-governed. He cannot match LV at his own game, theres not time. But he already out-matches him in the gut and heart. His instincts will guide him more than his cleverness (which is limited). My guess.

i think a lot of people are getting mixed up on what occlumency iis and what legilimency is:


"Occlumency is a branch of magic that concerns itself with closing one's mind against external penetration, with the intent of preventing others from reading one's thoughts or emotions."

"Legilimency is a branch of magic involving the practice of extracting emotions and memories from another person's mind, in a manner akin to "mind reading. A skilled Legilimens would be easily able to detect truth or deception and would also be able to tell what a person was thinking or remembering."

taken from wikipedia

i dont think learning occlumency will stop harry show ing his emotions at all i just think that he will be able to block out LV or any other rivals from his mind when he wants to. i also belive that ultimately harry will master occlumency and become a very well established occlumens.

as for legilimency i belive that harry may have some kind of instinct as to what LV will do, however i think it would be only LV that he could use this wilth due to theire conection.

i do not think it is a bad idea to learn legilimency though and if i were HP i would definatle try to become an accoplished Legilimens.

I predict Harry can be one of the most powerful Legimens ever, with Voldemort and Dumbledore, and that the final battle is without words, they just read each others minds.

I agree with a few people here that Harry REALLY HAS TO LEARN OCCLUMENCY! But I sort of don't blame him, I mean,it's really hard to just clear your mind, especially if there's something that's really been bothering you. But there's so much important information he would be giving away to Voldemort if he doesn't learn it, and fast. I could lead to many people dying, including all of the Weasley's and then some.

Yes, I also think that Harry has to learn occlumensy very fast. Voldy can find out everything about Harry if he doesn't learn it...

its cruicial he learns occlumency and legilimency because attack is the best form of defence

if he dosent it would lead to countless killings,the weasleys, hermionie,and many of the order

josh

I am extremely doubtful that JKR will have Harry learn any skill of substance in the final book. When asked about Harry's inability to learn Occlumency, while Draco was able to do so, she replied that Harry was too emotionally damaged to hide his emotions or organize his thoughts. In other words, fellas she will not have him learn Occlumency or Legilimency or even any magic of significance. He'll get through the final hurdle as he has done so far, with determination, courage, luck and lots and lots of assistance from others.

sorry mafair but i think finally harry will take things into his own hands rather than having help from others

he will defeat voldy by himself and realize he is a great wizard,luck is not an option for harry this time either him or voldy( or both) will die

josh