I agree with the first couple of posts, on the carrige ride to the Hogwarts Express, Cedric's death hadn't sank in yet.

Ok the person who started this iznt very smart. Harry was present at his parents death but didnt witness their death. so he didnt see them for the first 4 years at hogwarts. then he saw Cedric die after the triwizard tournament. wen he went back for his fifth year he could see the thestrals.

yeah ok he couldn't see them for four years ok but how do you think they got back to the hogwarts express? it says clearly in the GoF that they were waiting for the horseless carriages even after watching cedric's death harry couldn't see them. maybe it did just take him some time to let it all sink in!

i just watched the PS movie and noticed that in the flashback scene it shows LV bursting into a bedroom to find lilly holding harry in her arms in a vain attempt to protect him. the shot then cuts to outside the house and we see green flashes in the window. i think from this combined with harrys memories of the night brought on by the dementors we can safely assume harry saw his mum die.

ofcourse the whole "sinking in" theory applies here but didn't he go through all that emotional grief during the PoA? therefor he should have been seeing the thestrals as early as the end of 3rd year

best explination is shock then huh? well thats what i think it had to have been unless there is sum deep root explination that some one off the wall is gonna come up with???? no one? o well lol

Technically he should have been able to see them in book 1 because he saw his parents die.

Harry did see his parents die but I don't think he really saw what he saw. You know? I mean he was just a little baby and he didn't realize what was going on. So technically he could've seen the thestrals if he wanted to but he didn't because he didn't think he's seen his parents die. Also someone might've put a memory charm on him so he'd forget the moment his parents were murdered. To spare him the agony of remembering.

I rekon that because Lord Voldemort cast the Avada-kedavra on Harry, it may have disrupted the memory of seeing his parents (or at least his mother; die)...or maybe his eyes were closed when lily died, although I doubt. but yes, he was barely even talking yet, when lily & james died, so maybe he hadn't registered that they were dead; therefore not enabling him too see the thestrals until his fifth year.

I think Harry couldn't see the thestrals earlier cuase he had not yet witnessed someone dying. He could only see them after he saw Wormtail kill Cedric. I don't think it was classified as a witness when he was a little baby and his parents were killed. I think he was still in his cot...

I think other people have said it before on this thread but it seems a very good explanation that the witnessed death has to sink in first before seeing the thestrals which proves the fact that Harry couldn't see them at the end of GoF, but if we look at the way the director has shot the film, in the scene where we see LV coming to kill Lily if i remember correctly she turns her back to him and pulls Harry close to her and shields him. What i'm trying to say is that maybe because Lily shielded his eyes, he didn't actually see her die, he would have seen her pull him in and then next thing he knew she would have been on the floor. I also appriciate and believe that the death has to sink in first and that because he was so young when it happened he probably didn't know what was going on anyway but there's another explanation for you.

maybe Harry wasn't in the room as a child when his mother and father where killed, as such he didn't see them die.

For the other things that Harry could have seen death before fourth year, I would say that Harry passed out before Quirrell died during his first year, the memory of Voldemort couldn't die during his second year, he was only a memory, and third year, nobody died.

I think if you are to see thestrals, you must be present, consciousm, and seeing the person at the moment that they die.

I believe that he saw them, but did not believe he did, because in order to see thestrals you have to witness someone die, and how many times has harry witnessed a death, maybe like 3-5 times, but anyways I agree with what alot of people said because he already witnessed people die it had to literally sink in, so he could believe all these deaths really happened in his presence

Whenever Harry has a dream about the night his parents were killed, or even when he is effected by the dementors, he only hears the screams of his mother. He never sees his mother die, only hears her die. The only thing he ever saw as a child was the bright green light from the Avada Kedavra.

- Phoenix

I think that, at least at first, Harry's parents' death still hadn't sunk in. Remember him standing before the Mirror or Eristed (SP?). To a certain extent, for a little while, he always held out hope that they'd return to him somehow. Aside from that, Harry was a baby. There's no assurance that he happened to be staring right at his mother at the time of her death. He could have been sitting in the crib staring at the bars for all we know - we know that he was closeby as he keeps hearing his parents screams in PoA.

I think that JK's explanation works here. He was 1. There's no way he'd have the consciousness to understand what he was seeing, even if he directly saw his mother's death.

Here's your answer guys

Why could Harry see the Thestrals 'Order of the Phoenix'? Shouldn't he have been able to see them much earlier, because he saw his parents/Quirrell/Cedric die?


I’ve been asked this a lot. Harry didn’t see his parents die. He was in his cot at the time (he was just over a year old) and, as I say in ‘Philosopher’s Stone’, all he saw was a flash of green light. He didn’t see Quirrell’s death, either. Harry had passed out before Quirrell died and was only told about it by Dumbledore in the last chapter.

He did, however, witness the murder of Cedric, and it is this that makes him able to see the Thestrals at last. Why couldn’t he see the Thestrals on his trip back to the train station? Well, I didn’t want to start a new mystery, which would not be resolved for a long time, at the very end of the fourth book. I decided, therefore, that until Harry is over the first shock, and really feels what death means (ie, when he fully appreciates that Cedric is gone forever and that he can never come back, which takes time, whatever age you are) he would not be able to see the Thestrals. After two months away from school during which he has dwelled endlessly on his memories of the murder and had nightmares about it, the Thestrals have taken shape and form and he can see them quite clearly.

- Courtesy of JKrowling.com

I would have thought the same question, but I think J.K Rowling clear it up quite nicely, it makes sense that it can take time for the realisation to sink in in order for one to see the Thestrals.

First of all, this topic discussion is about the first five BOOKS. The movies, though overseen by Jo during the writing of the script are not completely to canon. The movie is just a representation of the book and when discussing anything that Harry has gone through, we should all refer to the BOOKS.

Secondly, Harry did not see either of his parents die. James was in a separate room when he died. Harry was in his cot when Lily ran in to try and protect Harry. This is why Harry only remembers a flash of green light and his mother screaming. He never actually saw anything. Also, Harry doesn't get any actual "memories" from being around the dementors. The only thing that he gets is an auditory memory, which can be just as powerful. However, it still isn't visual because he never saw anything but the flash of green light. As for him being too young to understand what happened, well, that may also be a part of it.

Jo has admit to other flaws in the books so I don't necessarily doubt her when she tells us that the Thestrals were thoroughly thought through and planned out well. Plus, as she said, it would have been too much to just introduce the Thestrals at the end of a book. In my opinion, it was a wise choice. It left her a really good amount of room to explain them through Hagrid's classes. It also gave us insight into other characters that could see them as well.

But as for Harry seeing the Thestrals finally in Ootp, I do think that when Harry left Hogwarts he was still in so much shock from not only Cedric's death, but the fact that Voldemort had actually returned that he just couldn't focus on one thing. This is why during the summer when he had more time to mull things over and really let what happened sink in, he finally is able to see the Thestrals in Ootp. Think about it. If you had just witnessed the death of someone you knew, plus seen a man who wants nothing more than to kill you come back, you'd probably be a little distraught as we all know Harry is.

That's what I was wondering. I thught perharps though it's because he couldn't really remember his mother's daeth. He was a lot older when he saw Cedric die. But someone posted that it migh thave to do with belief aswell which I thought was a reasonable explination.

~.:Hogwarts.Bound:.~

but shouldn't have harry been able to see the threstrals(spelling?)even before that? Didn't he wittness his parents die?(sorry if someone already said that. I only read the first few :( )

firstly i know most of this stuff has been mentioned before but heres my theory on the whole topic...
i think this is a confusing topic to explain because we have to use our imaginations to explain why harry did not see them on his way back from hogwarts in year 4 but did see them in year 5 (even though cedric died in year 4)

it is complicated because JK never fully explains to us in detail why some people can see them, all we learn is that you see them if you have seen someone die (luna tells harry this in ootp) but this does not explain why harry hasnt been able to see them all along

we can only assume that like other people have suggested, the death has to sink in first and harry has to come to terms with it, which we know he finds very hard as he does not believe that cedric is dead at first then refuses to let go of him/give up hope - whereas we can (again) only assume that luna could come to terms with her relative dying because of her character and the type of person she is

as for harry seeing his parents die when he was younger we can again only do guess work as there are so many different anwsers to this such he may have not directly witnessed his parents dying even if he was in the same room and also because he was so small he did not realise what was happening (which again means it did not sink in) but we would end up going round in circles

i think there are loads of answers as to why he does not see them earlier but we can only guess these as we will probably never officialy know, so i think that its all down to what we believe and our own conclusions

-i know that was a bit long, i hope anyone who read it understood it, i couldnt really explain what i was trying to say!-

i agree that the death probably has to sink in. but maybe if it doesn't have to sink in maybe he just didnt realize that he had seen them. he could have been thinking of other things. i mean he has never seen them before so he probably just didnt realize that they were there.

I also agree, the death has to sink in. Also, Harry at the time may not have known that his parents has sies, because he probably didn't know what was going on. So Harry at that time has no conception of death.

Yeah... It's probably because he didn't really realize the impact of his parents' death becoz he was just a kid then.

Then again, it could mean something else... Maybe it's a clue to something we'll find out later. I considered the thought of Harry not being in that room after all so he didn't see it but then I remembered that the book said he remembered some parts of when his parents' were killed so... scratch that thought.


But I still think there's a possibility that it means so much more...

the death didnt have time to sink in on harry and he was so much in shock but the real question is where did snape and malfoy go after they killed dumbledore?

I can't remember which interview it was, but JKR said that when going out on the grounds and going home, Harry was still in disbelief. He was in his own little world and had not fully accepted Cedric's death.
It was only after the summer had past and he was trying to put it behind him did he begin to see the thestrals.

i guess that he might not have realized them in GOF but i dont think he would have seen them any time before that because he was only in his crib when Lily was killed. all he remembers seeing was a flash of bright green light. i have to read PS/SS again though. maybe i am just making things up.

When his parents died he dint actually remember anything and therefore wouldnt see the Thestrals and JKR said in an interview that after Cedric first dies he couldnt see them because it hadnt sunk in and he still didnt believe it.

So the only reason Harry couldn't see the thestrals was because he didn't believe Cedric had died? I don't mean to sound like I am contradicting JKR but Harry was right there. He saw him die. He knew Cedric was dead. Now if she meant to say that Harry was a bit numb at the events that happened that led up to and eventually contributed to Cedric dying, then I can believe that. Numbness is a very real thing when trying to deal with death and grief.

The other thing I wanted to bring up was does it actually say in canon that Harry was awake and saw his mother die? We know that he sees a flash of green light, but at this point, that light could have illuminated the entire room so Harry would have seen that. Did he actually see her crumple to the ground and lay there lifeless? If not, Harry could have been protected from death and not truly have witnessed it. Maybe that is why he wasn't able to see the thestrals in the first place.

Sorry - I know most of this stuff was probably already said once or twice (probably more), but, stay with me...

Many people have been saying that 'the death has to sink in' to see the Thestrals. Doesn't Harry think, 14 years later, that his parents might actually be dead? He isn't in denial about that.
But now comes the guesswork ... we have no proof that Harry saw the actual death of his mother, although it is likely. He only remembers her screaming and a flash of green light.
As for the flash of green light (coming from the Avada Kedavra curse), the only way it could maybe have lit up the whole room so greatly that it was blinding is the simple reason of Voldemort being extremely powerful at that time, making the curse more powerful than it is meant to be.
Some people have also said that because Harry was a little kid when this happened and maybe didn't realize that his parents had just been killed, he still saw it happen, and later on in life he knew.

I'm sorry if I'm contradicting any of you, because I may be wrong (most of you have very intelligent arguments).

If I remember correctly in the english version Harry explained his parent's death in his mind, whether it was a dream I cannot remember but the book defintely notes sometihng along the lines of this:

'There was a flash of Green light that hit his mother, but he misinterpretated it andthought the man that was cloaked was his father and there were just putting on another display of pretty lights for their son, he thought his mother would stand up laughing and his father would pull down his hood and laugh with his wife'

So that is evidence that Harry indeed saw his mother die. I am not saying that this is exactly what the book said but that is vaguely what it was in my memory, I couldn't find it in my book because I wouul'd have to reread every chapter and really didn't want to.

~Zach~

JK Rowling said something like you have to have come to terms with the death in order to see the Thestrals. Maybe Harry had never fully come to terms with his parents death and therefore was unable to see them?

I was re-reading GoF and it said that Harry had his eyes closed as Cedric was murdered. Therefore how could he have seen him BEING killed. He would have only seen the dead body. Therefore why can he see the Thestrals at all?

~ Potters Phoenix ~

Maybe Cedric wasnt the death J.K. refered to. His parents are dead, although he only saw his mother die, but I believe Cedric wasn't the death you should be thinking of.

I reckon you have to remember it. Harry doesn't remember seeing his mother actually dying, or Quirrel for that matter. I'm sure it has something to do with it sinking in, but I think you have to have seen it happen.

But then Crucio is right, I think I remember Harry seeing that too! It was when he'd broken into Voldemort's mind and Voldy was remembering.

It comes back to remembering what Harry, himself saw. It wasn't Harry's memory, it was Voldemort's. Harry didn't remember it and it was even through his own eyes.

But then there's what Potters Phoenix says, and I also remember that...

Now I'm confused, can anyone help me out? Hahaha!

I think harry should have seen them from the moment the carriages were mentioned in the books because it says that one can only see them if they have witnessed death and he did that on halloween night when he was one. regardless if he can not remember(which he did in the third book) or the death has not "sunk in" he has witnessed death first hand and should have seen them. this point about when he should have seen the thestrals is hard to argue because the whole thing in the book was not accurately explained and the loopholes were not clearly stated. till then i will believe that he should have seen them before and i shall wait till jkr takes the time to explain this more.

For some reason, I've always assumed you can see thestrals if you've seen death.
Isn't that what they all say in the books. I also just assumed that you have to remember it.

In the third book, Harry hears his mother and father's last moments. He doesn't actually hear them dying. He only later finds that he had seen it because that's what Voldemort was seeing at one stage and Harry was able to see it too. So from what we can gather from Voldy's memory, Harry saw Lily die, but never remembered it.

When Quirrel dies Harry wasn't able to see because of the pain in his head - he was about to pass out. He didn't know that Quirrel was even dead until Dumbledore told him after he woke up.

When Cedric died, it was much the same story. They pain on his forehead 'blinded' him, he heard a thud on the ground, then afterwards he saw Cedric's body.

My take on this information is that Harry never actually saw/remembered actually seeing the death occur, so I don't really know why he could see thestrals at all. After all that time I firmly believe that Harry had accepted his parents deaths, and he would have easily accepted Quarrels I can imagine.

I have one other theory though that could explain it, maybe it's not necessarily seeing someone die, but seeing their body. It's still seeing death, right?. I mean, Harry never saw James or Lily's bodies, or Quirrel's. But he did see Cedric's, so after he'd gone home and come to terms with it all, he could see the thestrals.

Just an idea, what do you think?

he could it mentones it in PoA it says something like harry thort that he coust see something pulling the carrages

Actually, all it says is that he assumes the carriages are pulled by invisible horses. I just looked it up.

I see what you are saying, and the fact that Harry actually brings Cedric's body back from the grave yard with him, then the death would be more imbedded into his mind. I feel like it would take some time, to come to grips with seeing that before he would actually be able to see the thestrals. Even if he had seen his parents murdered by Voldemort, at the age of 1, I donot think he would be cognitively mature enough to realize what he actually saw. By the age of 14, and by bringing back the dead boy's body, cognitively he would know what he had witnessed. As far as Quirrel's death, he did not see him die, he had passed out before that death, so he did not actually witness what happened. Like said above, it would take some time to actually come to terms with what he witnessed, and what he had gone through before his mind would be accepting of it all. I know when my grandmother died, I did not accept her death until I saw her body, so perhaps your theory is correct, the actually seeing of the body would make the death more concrete.

Ok, Maybe because he didnt really realize it. He was soo sad that Cedric had died, and what had happened that year that i guess he really didnt notice it. Or maybe he just didnt really care. But I dont really know. I guess he just had to have it sink in. Cause Cedric died right at the very end, and than like a couple weeks after Cedrics death he goes back home. Maybe he needed it to sink in for a while. Not just to have it automatically come to him. Well I dont know. Oppinion...

im pretty sure harry couldn't see the thestrals because he hadn't accepted the fact the cedric was dead. he was still in disbelief, so in his mind he never really saw death happen because he didnt believe it himself.

omgg you're right! that's weird. and what about like...before that. He sawhis mom die I thought!?

right....

harry did not see his mum die...
he was in his cot and it was to big for him to see out of..

he did not see quirrell die because he was unconsiouse

he didn’t actually see Cedric die, he just saw him dead. Here’s the exact part straight out of my book:
“And then, without warning, Harry’s scar exploded with pain. It was agony such as he had never felt in all his life; his wan slipped from his fingers as he put his hands over his face; his knees buckled; he was on the ground and he could see nothing at all, his head was about to split open.
From far away, above his head, he heard a high, cold voice say, ‘Kill the spare’.
A swishing noise and a second voice, which screeched the words into the night: ‘Avada Kedavra’.
A blast of green light blazed though Harry’s eyelids, and he heard something heavy fall to the ground next to him; the pain in his scar reached such a pitch that he retched, and then it diminished; terrified of what he was about to see, he opened his stinging eyes.


he had already seen the Threstrals before Sirius died because he saw them at the beginning of the Order of the Phoenix. Sirius died toward the end of that book. Cedric died at the end of the Goblet of Fire, so Harry should have seen the threstrals at the end of that book. The carriages were there at the end. I read it again to be sure.



:S someone help

im really confussed who did harry see die so he could see the threstrals ?

reply back soon

xxx

Okay, okay, this is what I think happened ...

Like I've already said in a previous post, I don't think Harry could have seen any death at all.



I then had an idea, it's pretty crazy but here it is:



If this theory works, Harry wouldn't have to have seen anyone actually dying. The only body he ever saw was Cedric's.

Harry took Cedric's body back to the school with him and a week or so later, he went home to the Dursleys. He was so mixed up about everything that had happened, (not just that Cedric had died, but the fact that Voldy was back and everything that he'd endured himself that night in the graveyard) that he couldn't take anything in and obviously hadn't fully accepted the fact that Cedric was indeed dead.
Over the summer, he had plenty of time to come to terms with what he'd been through, and what had happened. He understood that Ced had died and so on. When he went back to school, he was able to see the thestrals.

This is what J K Rowling had to say

Yes, these are true (said in an interview w/ JK Rowling). In that same interview, JK Rowling said that there is a delay before seeing Thestrals after watching someone die. So, then. Case Closed? Perhaps.

~Luna♥Lover

i think it is because that he didn't understand what happened to his mother or he was refusing this to happen but in the case of cedric he was completely concious and know what is happening and know about the curse avadakadavra so he could accept his death

Funny enough, my friends and I were discussing this topic.
We came to the conclusion that you have to know what's going on around you and the memory of seeing someone die before you.
Harry may have seen his mum die, but he wasn't very sure of what was going on around him. He can't even remember what is going on because babies don't have that type of memory.
But Harry saw Cedric die in front of him. He was fully aware of what was going around him and watching it with such great detail leaves an imprint on one's mind. Thus being able to see the thestrals. Something we didn't understand is when they go back to Hogsmeade Station how it goes unnoticed there.
But we came to another conclusion that it has to be impactful on us, and settle in. If you have ever noticed and had someone die that was close to you, it seems surreal and as if they're still here and suppose to walk through that door and they don't.
An example of being able to see the thestrals is in Luna's case. She was nine when she saw her mum died and it made an impact on her thus seeing the thestrals.
Hoped that helped!

I like how you put it, JSB 073. After the fifth book I had wondered why Harry couldn't see the thestrals earlier, but then just figured he was too young when his parents died to remember or even understand. Great explanation!

Hmmmmm, I'm still not entirely sure about this guys....



I think that by the time he's 15 he would have understood that his parents are dead. It's not like he's expecting them to 'walk through the door' because he knows that they're dead, let's face it, he's never known any different. It wouldnt even seem surreal to him because its what he's grown up with, you know? Even before he was told he was a wizard he knew that they were dead. He'd accepted it a long time ago.

This has been really confusing me. I thought you had to see a person dying for you to see the Thestrals, but in GoF, Harry closes his eyes and sees a flash of green light. He looks at Cedric after he was killed. But i'm not sure if this counts. Maybe i didn't read it right, but that's what i think... Anyone else?

Well, I don't know. I thought he saw the flash of light hit Cedric, and then he closed his eyes, knowing what it must mean. That this guy, who had became his friend over the trial that was the Triwizard Tournament.

I always thought he should have been able to see the Thestrals since the beginning. His mother was standing over him, shielding him, when Voldemort killed her. Wouldn't you assume that Harry could see her? Maybe you have to realize that you're seeing death. Baby Harry wouldn't have been able to know that yet.

Hmm, this is good thinking. Actually that is a great assumption! im gald someone actually thought of this because i have been wondering this. The only thing that i think may have caused it may have been that he was so young that he may not have been looking at this mother when she was killed. But i dont think that is the case. I personally think that he should see the thestrals. But JKR must have a good reason!