Hello everyone;

I'm not sure how much coverage Hurricane Katrina has got in Europe and other places around the world, but I do know that it's been on the news non-stop in America.

Basically, a Category four hurricane hit the Gulf Coast a few days ago, completely flooding New Orleans and destroying countless towns in Mississippi and Louisianna.

New Orleans actually survived the Hurricane well, not taking much damage because it was west of the eye; but after Katrina had passed, the dams and levees broke, flooding New Orleans. Pictures of the suburbs show water up to the roofs of the one story buildings; 9 -10 foot deep.

The conditions in New Orleans are hell on earth. Above ground graves, sewage...you can imagine what it's like. These people need help.

Many estimates think that the death toll, cost of repairs, and length of repairs, will be worse than the 9/11 attacks were, and those of you that remember that will know how terrible this is going to be.

Mississippi has had entire towns disappear. In one county alone they have eighty dead.

The Red Crossis the main relief effort to help these people get medical attention, food, water, transportation to Texas, rescue efforts for those who were unable to evacuate, etc. If you can, donations are helpful; if you do a Google search, I'm sure you could find a relief effort that is based near you that you could donate food, clothes, water, anything and everything for these people.

I also ask for your prayers, for the people that have escaped, that are still trapped in New Orleans and other places, and for their families who are unable to contact them by any means except HAM radio.

Katrina has definitely taken it's toll--a tragedy by anyone's definition. The worst part for me, as I looked through pictures of New Orleans, was that amidst the horrendous destruction and disaster, there were pictures of people looting stores. What's wrong with people?! To imagine that people would take advantage of a bad situation and make it worse is just a travesty.

Now they're reporting that people are shooting at helicopters taht airlift people to safety, or they're hijacking buses that are evacuating people. What causes people to lose so much of their humanity?!

But, on top of the vileness demonstrated by a few (I hope it's only a few), the tragedy and loss caused by Katrina are beyond belief. I feel guilty because my life is relatively unaffected by the hurricane. My thoughts and prayers go out to all affected, and especially to those who have lost loved ones or their homes.

Thank you for your post, QQS.

Having frequented New Orleans almost yearly for a long time, I must say that I am devastated. It is so sad to hear the stories of the people trapped in thier attics as the flood waters rose. That is a beautiful city, filled with history and a culture all thier own.

But there are so many more cities affected. Being in the south, we recieved "bands" of the hurricaine. Heavy rains and winds. But nothing like they did.

Those southern states are in need of help. I was just wondering last night wether or not this made it to the international stage yet. So many people dead. So many homeless.

Yes...keep them in your prayers and if given an opportunity to send help, please do so. They need it so much right now.

Katrina was horrible...I feel like I have a personal connection to the south because I grew up in a town in Southern Mississippi that got hit bad...very bad. If you're in the States, and watch the news, and see a town called Hattiesburg Mississippi...that's my home town, but I moved a while ago. But all of my childhood friends remain....

It's terrible what happened. I'm glad you posted about it, to give it some more attention.
Here in the Netherlands we pay a lot of attention to it, I'ts on the news everyday. I was stunned when I saw the images and read articles about what happened there, ecpecially the plundering stores, not to mention all the people who lost friends and family.
I think the Dutch government or some Dutch help organisation will start up a project to help the people over there.
I'm really sorry for everyone who lost someone or something because of Katrina...

This has been an awful year for natural disasters. I've been watching the news updates on CNN.com, and between the tsunami and Katrina, it's frightening to see the horrific losses of life that are completely beyond human control. And I'm just sitting at my computer looking at pictures! - I can't imagine how hard it would be to uproot my entire life and abandon my home as quickly as those people had to, and in that respect, I doubt that I can fully appreciate the magnitude of the hurricane. I extend my sympathy to anyone who has been affected by this tragedy, and I hope that everyone you know is okay, Kat.

The hurricane was unbelievable! I have family members who live in the South- they've had to move about four times because hurricanes destroyed their homes. At our high school they're collecting a relief fund for the victims- I think that's a wonderful idea, and am more than happy to make a contribution. I'm wishing the best for all the victims, and hope there is something we can all do to make their lot easier.

it's really horrible how people are suffering the moment i'm writing this.. i watched the news for an hour today and read the newspaper and it made my heart ache for those people.. there's people who have had no food or water for three days, people stranded on their roofs, and people whose family members are still missing

i saw this one scene where a dead body was on the floor and another was on a wheelchair and there was just a blanket over them, people think americans have it lucky sometimes, but if you look at the pictures, it's like the same thing that happened over in asia last december..

my prayers are with those victims and hopefully they will be able to live normally in a couple of months

Thank you QQS for bringing this to the forum.
In a world context, these peoples who have suffered so much in the tragedy are still suffering THREE days later. Why have we as a country let them down?? New Orleans was a beautiful city full of life and spirit and it is now in wreckage. But the affluent had somewhere else to go and left when they could, the poor and the ill have been left abandoned. These groups of people lost everything. These people lived day to day out of their gardens for food and with their own chickens and livestock. They now have nothing.
Please, if you can at least pass the message that the Southern US is now a disaster area on a scale that will probably never recover...
Thanks for listening - PCG

I wouldn't say that America has let the Gulf Coast down; there's no way to stop a hurricane.

However, I've got a new far reaching consequence of this Hurricane, which is not as immediate or pressing as the nearly a million refugee's, but is still pretty bad.

Gas prices have sky rocketed in the past day or two; I read that in Atlanta, Georgia, it hit six dollars a gallon before the Georgia governor called a state of emergency and stopped gas prices from being raised any further. The economic effect this could have on the entire nation is barely comprehendable.

At the same time, President Bush is taking measures to make sure that the entire nation isn't shut down and crippled because it can't afford/get enough gasoline; dolling out the oil reserves, etc, the wonderful Governor of North Carolina is telling people to panic because it hasn't recieved a shipment of gasoline since last Sunday.

That makes me mad; at a time when leaders are needed to help get their states enough energy and coordinate the biggest relief effort in history, they're instead telling people that all's lost, when in fact it's not.

Another economic effect of Katrina is in Louisiana. New Orleans was a city of some two million people, in a state not much bigger. We're going on five days in which no taxes were collected there; sales taxes, import/export taxes, etc. The entire state of Louisiana could go bankrupt because of this hurricane, making even the areas that survived the initial physical devastation uninhabitable because of the lack of money. The whole state could become a ghost town.

I just read about these, and it surprised me that a storm could cause so much damage beyond knocking down buildings.

I am hoping that an internation relief effort similar to that of the tsunami will be mounted to help us out.

Owh god, I'm so shocked about everything I hear on television.
The Dutch government wants to send troups and help to New Orleans, everything is ready for take off, but apparently the American government hasn't send out some sort of official request for help, so we can't send the help yet, believe me this makes me so angry

And then the best part, we (the dutch citizen) were told by our government that we don't have to collect money, because some sort of American organisation told them that they have money enough so it isn't necessary.

And then we get to see news from the American television who are saying that they are disappointed that other countries aren't sending any help. I'm so confused about everything.

Luckily our government has already sent ships with supplys to New Orleans, hopefully they'll be alloud to sent help soon

This situation feels so wrong...

Hi,
I am really sorry that this happened to New Orleans and the other cities around it.
We in Switzerland are all aware of this horrible catastrophe, it's all over the news. I've seen pictures and I'm really shocked. Here they say that there are even rapes...I just don't know how people can do that.
Krieltje, I'm just as mad as you are. Switzerland wants to help but the goverment also said that the US didn't ask for help so far. I really ask myself why is that?! We in Europe can help, and we really want to. So please know: we think about you and won't forget you. In times like these the world has to stick together and forget all the proplems that countries have with eachother.

My thoughts are with you!

I am Canadian myself, i have been watching our local news (CBC union workers are on strike, so i can't watch that)

But its devistating.

The worst thing is, that the National Guard who what i believe are suppose to be people that are suppose to help them in a crisis such as this, yet they are fighting in Iraq.

I cant imagine what the poor people on the Gulf coast must be going through right now, with there lives turned upside down, home destroyed and talk of some areas being flooded to the extent that they will not be built on again. It must be completely devastating!

I can only hope that the people who are desperate for help get it sooner rather than later, and that we all learn lessons from this tragedy, so that scenes like this can be averted in the future. I think the large scale media coverage of this should be a wake up call for all us, as to the possible disastrous effects of National disasters, especially as this is barely 9 months after the Tsunami disaster in Asia.

The stores of people shooting at rescue helicopters, was shocking to say the least, I cant believe that people could possibly be that callous and use such a disaster for personal gain is beyond me.

As for the financial support I’m positive that the international community would be only more willing to help if it is required (which from the little I’ve seen of it the after effects of the Hurricane it is). The most important thing has to be helping those people worst effected.

I've been watching the news about it too. It's terrible. What's even more terrible is that people are taking advantage of a horrible situation and looting stores. That is wrong. I can understand if you steal food or water, but if you are stealing jewelry or a T.V. just to make a profit, that is a criminal act. I thought that it was amazing of how when the Deputy of Police said something like, "If I had it my way, we would shoot the looters on site, and put a sign over them saying that this is what happens to looters", and then right after that the mayor or New Orleans said that that was completely wrong, blablabla. Desperate times call for desperate measures, is what I say. If you are taking advantage of a horrible situation to do a criminal act, what kind of person does that make you? Have they declared marshal law there, anyways? Because that is how it used to be done, you loot in a disaster, you get a bullet. I know it sounds terrible, but it teaches other people not to do it, and it's fair punishment, if you can believe that.
I think that it is so incredibly awful that when Firefighters and Police went in there to help, looters shot at them. They shot at them. One Police Officer was shot in the head and died. How could you do something like that? Kill people trying to help just to cover up your stealing? And then people were shooting at the helicopters that were trying to help. Those kind of people that shoot at police officers and Rescue Helicopters in an emergency really do not deserve to be saved at all. In my opinion we shouldn't shoot them, but just lock them up in a cage down there and forget about them. They deserve as much.
Just my two cents.

Hey everybody. Thank you for making this topic, Mason.
I'm not here to describe the horrific stories being told, I'm not here to predict how the destruction that once was the Gulf coast will ripple into other parts of society. Nor am I here to complain how effectively the government is juggling the humanitarian aid surging south.

I am here to describe an opportunity. This catastrophe is our opportunity, average people, from all walks of life, wherever you are, to make the world a better place. In the midst of our grief and uncertainty, we all have a choice to make acts of kindness towards people in need. Raise money, volunteer, give clothes, start food drives, give donations. Please be charitable; for many victims had their possessions, livlihoods, and health swept away. Indeed, the citizens of New Orleans and southern Mississippi have dire need for assistance; but if you can't because of international issues, please draw attention to other people that you can reach. The unfortunate refugees in the Sudan, the tsunami survivors still need help, as well as the homeless and poor in your community.
Have hope.

It's times like these that really put us, humanity, in our places. Society gets so caught up in our materials that we sometimes forget the simple pleasures of life. Going for an evening walk, eating ice cream on the back porch, a nice warm shower, and our comfortable beds. I can't even begin to fathom what these poor souls in New Orleans, Mississippi, and Alabama are going through. They are saying, unofficially, that the death toll is to be greater than 9/11. We read the papers and we watch the news, and we see the sheer desperation of this situation. I live in New York and I remember the chaos of the 9/11 aftermath, but this, Katrina reaked complete havoc. It's very humbling, and all my prayers and warm thoughts go out to those effected and their families.
A second thought is, please, all of you, don't let a day of your lives go by without letting those close to you and those you love know it. Cherish the time you have them. Also, the kindness of a stranger is never forgotten, so if the opportunity reveals itself, take action.
I do appologize for my tangent there; once I begin, I have to force myself to end. At any rate, take care everyone and God Bless!

I agree that you cannot stop a hurricane but when you cut corners in the expectatation that "something of this scale couldn't happen" you do let a population down. The levees didn't hold and Lake Ponchartrain flooded the entire region. Why weren't resources rallied sooner? The Mississippi river was still travellable so why weren't there barges full of food and water and supplies making there way to the stranded survivors in the first day of the tragedy rather than waiting to see if the mayor and governor would ask for help??
Nobody has the answer and if I seem mad and frustrated it's because I feel like I'm living in a nightmare where all the worst things happen...PCG

I just hope people start to realize how wrong this is. No, you can't stop a hurricane, it's true, but you can help the survivors by not waiting for five days until it's decided a very small amount of food and water should be delivered. It makes me quite angry to watch the television and see exactly what is not going on. It's ridiculous how much worse you are treated by the government if you are not a white collar businessman, in fact it is predicted that more people will die than from 9/11 . . . oh wait, it's not like the government could've done anything, all our resources are invested in Iraq which of course is a direct result of 9/11[/sarcasm].

I plead with you to make some sort of contribution to the people who have no food, no water, no electricity, no medical care, and no decent place to stay in the gulf. If not for them, do it for yourself.

Here in Australia we are getting coverage ever time the NEWS comes on. I can't believe the damage! Is there anyone form the forums living there in New Orleans? Two years ago some scienctist predicted this down to the realif effort. Bush arrived there today but it has been a couple of days since it has happened and realif has only just happened. They need to be better in helping. I don't mean to dis the American government but they need to be quicker.

Its horrible to see what this hurricane did to a nice city. Its also weird, because a country that is so well developped and high-tech, is not able to maintain discipline in this city.

Our country (Belgium) is givind 45% of his strategic oil reserves to the US, and there are already people collecting money for the victims.

I hope everything will come fine for those who survived.

I too am appaled at the looting and pilliging that is going on in the southern states right now..I am from Canada in a city right across the border from Detroit Michigan (no where near where the storm hit but none the less we get almost all American news here) people must realize it isnt the falut of just the american government, at times it was near IMPOSSIBLE to get into the city...helicopters would try to touch down and take people but they couldnt get close enough because the people were hording the landing pad..Truckers have been interviewed who were going through the area at the time and tried to stop and help but the highways were devestated and they could not get in..Police men and quiting left right and center because they cant handle the devestation and people are shooting at them for no reason...we have a limited amount of troops due to the war in Iraq...I think it is terrible for people to have to live in the state of life they are in..its terrible..but we must understand the WHOLE picture and not just the view from one side...
Before my head gets bitten off trust me if I were in that situation I would probably be angry and think no one is helping like those people but unfortunately they cant know the whole picture..because they have no power or electricity to be told about what is being done to help them...
My heart goes out to all the people in the southern USA..but please dont think that people arent trying to help because they are..there are just some situations that cant be helped unfortunately...especially with a natural disaster of this magnitude

i think its horrific at what these people are going through. i only pray that people are going to get through this. my grandmas friend said it was a wake up call from god. shes really religious. im religious but i dont know what to believe i just hope and pray that it stops and that everyone is safe.

of course it was a nature disaster and one can't do anything against nature. But we here in Switzerland are very shocked that the US which we admire here as the most organised country in the whole wide world with the most powerful army take five days to help in a proper way. We are really shocked. I think that there should have been help earlier. I really don't want to offend anyone here, but these are my thoughts. Still, my thoughts are with the people who have to suffer, and I hope that they will get out of there soon.

I do admit that I don't know the whole picture either, and I do think that someone probably screwed up with all the evacuation plans and stuff, but we are helping, and have been trying to help. I heard people complaining on the news about why they don't drop food from the helicopters, its because people would start killing eachother to get it, and it would be chaos. Anyone seen the newest War of the Worlds movie? When something terrible like that happens, you'll do anything to survive.
In my opinion, we should get the national guard to every area that needs help, organize everything, then pass out food, and if theres trouble it should be easily surpressed.

I'm in Missouri, and my family and I have passed those cities that are now flooded for vacation. It's just...horrible's not really a strong enough word, to see those cities how they are now, because once you were there before all this happened, it's hard to imagine that anything could happen to them. My father always puts it to the weather channel, and so does my teacher when we're at school, so it's impossible to escape what's happening. Not that I would want to, it's better to know what's happening..

As people have said, the great thing about this is, that people can unite even more to help each other out. I heard on the news yesterday, that this one man from Florida had gotten tons and tons of supplies for people down in Mississippi, I think, and he only volunteerd. It's just so..calming to know that people are there for each other..

First, Let me say that you have to understand the culture of the people in the Southern US. Especially New Orleans people. They are a proud and deeply traditional people. That city had stood for hundreds of years pretty much the same.

The people were in fact warned, as were we in Florida, about Katrina’s course. The people that could evacuate, did. The others either could not afford to, or chose not to. If they chose not to, they did so out of tradition. See, New Orleans people believe that since the city has stood all that God has thrown so far, there is no reason she won’t stand further. Arrogant? Maybe. But that is the way they think.

Apparently, some high standing official somewhere in DC made the prediction that a hurricane like Katrina would hit, damaging the levee systems and causing havoc. Why then was nothing done before? Well, that goes back to the people of New Orleans. The city itself operates under completely different codes as the rest of the US. Napoleonic code to be precise. The city itself can not change any structure (i.e.: building, color, levee or roadway) without consent from city officials. In addition, the new structure must be in accordance with existing structures. Meaning, they can not build a Starbucks coffee shop next door to the St. Michael’s cathedral. People must gain a permit before painting the outside of their homes for God’s sake. So…this means that it was the city’s misjudgment that lead to the levee system not being upgraded to code. It was in fact rebuilt a few years ago. But making it withstand a category 5 hurricane would create an “eye sore”.

Now you must understand that I love New Orleans. I was there once for a Tropical Storm. I was in a bar and we watched patio furniture fly past us through the air. The local just laughed and said, “That’s the way it is down here!” I was stranded there for a further 3 days due to flooding. In that time, I was welcomed into people’s homes for meals, parties and an all around grand time! Even went to a Voodoo ceremony. (but I will save that story for another time.) I love that city like no other. I have danced in her streets, eaten in her finest kitchens and have life long friends who are there. Even they will tell you that the people living there are partially to blame for what had happened.

The other part? Well, like I said, we were all aware f the hurricane coming. No one, on the other hand, was ready for the levee to break and flood in 20ft. of water! Nobody could have foreseen that happening. Even if they did, (see above) no one locally believed it could. When it did, it took time to get proper materials together. Could they have moved faster? In a perfect world. Should thousands have died? No. But they chose to stay. Sorry to sound harsh, but do not blame the American government. You must understand that each state runs things differently. Louisiana especially. The federal government was forced to act after the fact. Not proactively. Sorry for the long post, but this is a very sore spot with me.

The American government did issue mandatory evacuations. But people still refused to leave, and unless you expect the government to make people leave their homes, that's about all they can do.

A radio talk show interviewed a man whose family was missing; he said they had decided not to leave New Orleans because New Orleans has had many scares in the past and never been hit directly. These people were told it was going to be deadly to stay in that region, and still chose to say.

I'm not trying to say it's their fault that they stayed; but neither is it George Bush's fault that people have died.

I also heard that one of the reasons things have got so crazy inside New Orleans is the abrupt halt in all drug traffiking.

New Orleans was one of the most dirty cities in America before Katrina hit, many parts were chock full of addicts and other forms of low lifes. Then, all of a sudden, a Cat 4 hurricane hits, not hard, but hard enough to ware down the old levees, and all drug traffic stops faster than a tax cut in Congress.

You can bet more than half the people that didn't get out were druggies who might not have even known Katrina was coming. Without any way to get a fix, they started going through withdrawl symptoms, which makes people go crazy. Desperate drug addicts will do anything, maybe even shoot at helicopters. For all we know, they might have thought America was under attack.

As for getting supplies in; can anyone here think of a way to get people and supplies on a scale large enough to make a difference into a city that's ten feet underwater? As soon as the hurricane passed, they had helicopters and boats going through and pulling people off roofs and out of attic's. Nothing can be done until the levee's are fixed, which the Core of Engineers are working on, and the city drained to a level that can make it passable by vehicles on a regular basis. It'll be months before normal cars and trucks can travel through all of New Orleans.

But supplies are getting in. The first convoy was eight miles long heading towards New Orleans, and hundreds of buses were running non stop to ship refugees to San Antonio and Houston. I would say that's more than a little.

What really agrivates me is that some people are saying that we didn't give the people of New Orleans enough time notice because it is an 80% black population and apperently our country wants to kill African Americans.

I am not making this up, it was on the September 2nd episode of the bill oreilly episode on fox news. Some guy came on and complained about this. And when bill orielly asked him about what he thought of the looters, the guy said that they have every right to sell the tv's they were stealing to buy food for their families. Bill Oreilly said that the only stealing people should be doing would be from clothing or food stores to get neseccites. And the guy responded with, "Well if you are so upset about thelooting, arrest the police officers and medical personal stealing medical supplies from flooded pharmicies."

Again i am not making this up. This really makes me mad, because first of all, we had a disaster down there, and this guy is trying to say america is trying to kill african americans! that is absolutly ridiculous, and it absoltly discusts me that no matter what happens, people always make up stuff like this, and turn a tragidy into a bunch of racial polotics.

Also, it is ridiculous to blame medical doctors who are doing their best to save people's lives. And there is no reason for people to be stealing tv's and ipods. There is no electricity down there, so i don't think to many people are going to be concerned with buying tv's when their house is flooded and half their familyis missing.

What happened in new orleans is horibble, and i saw a segment on the orielly facor, when one of the reporters was down there interviewing people, and some guy was holding a babyand the reporter was asking him about his kid and the guy said, "This isn't my kid, it is some lady's who passed out over there." I feel so bad for all of these people, and i hope we can help them all.


To cait in australia, i am kind of offended that you are saying that the U.S. goverment should work quicker. We are doing all that we can, in trying to get people out, but most of the people we are trying to evacuate now don't even want to leave their homes. And where are we going to put all of these people?

To be perfectly honest i've almost stopped watching the news covering Hurricane Katrina. When it first struck i emptied my bank account and sent $200 for the relief aid. But now im getting madder and madder at the people there.

I commend those worthiwile citizens who are helping save people. i saw these two men in boats who were rescueing people out of their trapped homes. I wish my money was going to people like them. But in fact my money may instead be going to the people stealin guns, t.v.'s and shoes. I agree with vincent... food, water, medicine, blankets. I can understand the looting of those things. I'm also sick of watching ten year old girls screaming into the camera that their going to die. that the government has let them down. Blah, blah, blah. In my opinion those who stayed behind when they had over three days to leave let themselves down. And obviously your area was not so badly affected that you can loot stores.

Don't take this the wrong way. i feel horribly sad for the loss these people are going through. Those who left, or went to the super dome must be terribly distrought. but in my mind they are the smart ones. They took government advice. Also those who couldnt leave like elderly and infants. i feel terrible for them. The releif effort wouldnt be moving so slowly if more people had left. No one seems to understand that not everyone can be the first evacuated. And thats the risk you take if you dont heed government advice.

Also National Guard troops, supplies, and rescue operations just can't appear at nation disasters at the drop of a hat. They need to be stationed in a safe area so they are not destroyed in the wake of the hurricane.

Yes, the governemnt (all stages from the president to governors to mayors to releif teams) fumbled the ball a little bit. But its no good pointing fingers in my opnion.

Chiron

Ok, I'm sorry, I don't mean to directly convict the government of being racist (even though 94% of the casualties so far have been African Americans). It just the burocracies that hinder the process of providing aid. I read today that the Texas national guard as well as various groups such as UMCOR (which I'm proud to say is one of the only organizations that gives 100% of your money to relief effort) were in Louisiana before, at the time, and after the hurricane but were not allowed to provide aid because the governor had not signed to allow them to. I guess it's just the way it's structured in Louisiana but all the same, it's pretty absurd.

On the subject of people not evacuating errr . . . it's really not as simple as hopping in your car and driving away. It was estimated that it would take about 48-72 hours to evacuate the 1.2 million people living in New Orleans alone. But yet another problem arises, 30% of the population of New Orleans lives in poverty. It is not to my knowledge that more that a few buses and helicopters were available to pick up people who had no transportation and bring them to camps.

To remind you, it was a handful of people stealing TVs and shooting at helicopters. I have no more idea than the next person why they would do this but the reaction of a few people saying the hurricane was planned to kill black people and calling to burn down the city doesn't mean we should leave everybody else to die.

As for the levee break being unforeseeable, I completely disagree. Both government officials and Engineers have said that the levees need some attention but the Louisiana government (I'm not sure if the federal government was involved) not only denied the required funding but also cut it. This had been foreseen and really has no excuse, unless they said they were just waiting for it to break to repair it.

Yeah, this really isen't a racism issue. It was a pre-existing problem that the majority of poor people in New Orleans were African-American. Most of the White people could afford to get out of there. This isen't racism folks, it is just financial statistics. Did anyone else see the news thing where Kanye West said "George Bush doesn't care about Black people". I like how when anything goes wrong, even though we are trying to help, it must be Bush's fault. I'm not saying some things aren't, but I don't personally see how you can blame Bush for a Hurricane when relief is already being given. I admit, I'm not sure why it took so long, but I highly doubt that was Bush's fault. Maybe Government officials wanted everyone to get to safer places, like the SuperDome even though it turned out to be a nightmare. And we probably weren't counting on all of the gunfire, rape, looting, etc. Maybe the looting, but I doubt we foresaw people shooting at helicopters.
You don't steal T.V.'s and iPod's to survive. In response to the one guy on Fox, where are you gonna sell them at?
About the Kanye West thing, at another forum I go to, someone agreed with him, and said that Bush brought it about himself because he never agrees to go to NAACP meetings.
I just want to say that the NAACP doesn't really have much of a place in this world anymore, sure it was great for getting equal rights, but now it is a bit useless. Also, the leader bashed Bush over and over, and over, and bashed his whole administration, and then after that he made a huge whiney fit when Bush declined his invitation to join them. Unbelievable.

Thats the thing, the NAACP is turning this into a racial issue. yes, most of the people stranded and dieing are AFrican American, but thats because the majority of the population is. Also the vast majority of the people who didnt evacuate are African American.

Anyone here who has ever debated with me knows im no fan of bush. But to me he has done an acceptable job in this releif effort. Not fantastic but ok. There are only a limited amount of resouces to use, and noone knows what the damage will be until after the storm passes. After that they need to organize. They had specific plans on who and where to evacuate first. They can't get to everyone. They also thought that most people would be smart, or else plan for the worst. Some people did neither.

They had three days to leave. hitch a ride, get on a bus, go to the superdome, pawn your tv for money. they gambled and they lost. And now they want to blame the government, doesn't some blame lie on themselves?

This post was written by PADFOOT'S avenger and transferred here as it has since been closed down.
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look i know this isnt a politcal site but i believe this needs to be talked about and can be talked about because from what ive gathered from forums and chats, the people who frequent this site are intelligent

the fact is that hurricane katrina looks like it will have killed 10000+ people before this is over with and i dont believe there is enough being done by the pople who run this country. its taken 6 days to get help down to the population of new orleans and mississippi and that is way too much. i know smaller organizations are collecting money and sending help but it can only be done on a big enough scale until the gov steps in. i know that the U.N. has offered help but i dont think the problem in new orleans is a shortage of blankets and freeze-dried strawberries. you can be sure that if a tragedy like this happened in auburn hills, michigan then it wouldve been postively combed to make sure everyone was out of there before the hurricane hit. of course hurricanes dont hit michigan im just saying this to make a point that a problem with this country is that the people who make decisions apparently think that the population of new orleans is expendable because their income rate is terribly low. the point is that these people need help and they arent getting near enough of it.

i opened this forum to raise awareness and im aware that this has nothing to do with harry potter so if it gets shut down...i understand.

please, its good to talk about things like this and i think that is exactly what we should be doing.

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The people who were in the superdome have been getting aid since day one. They followed the governments directions. also they were among the first to be evacuated. These people i am talking about are the ones who stayed in their homes. Also they did not properally prepare. They could have had water and non-perishable food ready. But they chose not to.

Also i've been watching the news reports. Have you noticed what some of these "so called poverty ridden people" are wearing? Air Jordans, Hollister tanktops, Timberland shirts. if they can afford these things why can they not afford to leave?

They could have lugged blankets up to the attic, carried gallons of water from their sinks, taken crackers,bread, paenut butter, thousands of other non-expensive items. They chose not to prepare.

These is an area between rich and poor. Can iask where you got the statistic that they only made $5000 a year. People of welfare make more than that. my sister who is 15 makes 5000 a year and she works at baskin robbins....

The superdome was where most of the suffering was occurring. The shootings and rapes took place there. Col. Tim Tarchick described it as "total chaos. No food, no water, no bathrooms, no nothing." There was no giant stock pile of food and water at the superdome and so even when people were plucked off their roof tops and brought there it didn't really do them much good. As for the people who did stay in their houses, most were elderly who had no means of getting to the superdome and decided to wait it out which very unfortunately for them didn't turn out to well. I doubt any of these people thought that they would be stranded in their houses for at least 3 days but even so there were people who did as you said, went up to their attic with a bottle of water and some bread or something but water levels continued to rise for about 2 days after the hurricane completely engulfing some housed and obviously ruining whatever food and water they had.

I just watch on Democracy now, and interview with the New Orleans Mayor. He said that the people who ARE stealing are mostly people trying to survive this ordeal. The small amount who are doing bad things and taking advantage are drug addicts trying to get something to help there pain.

I am currently crying right now because of these people who need help. And the bush administration are not doing A THING! They were waiting for the Govoner (sorry for my spellin) to give the go ahead when she already did before it struck.

I just don't understand why the reporters are disturbing the police and people, and not helping out.

A group from my city of Vancouver Canada finally got permission from toronto to go down and help everyone out...and guess what! THey were the first group down there.

I don't think Bush is the only one to blame. Every level of democracy is. FEMA has been turning away aid. Bush didnt give the go ahead for a while, the governor didnt ask for aid enough. This is not just the president's problem.

Even if they were unemployed they would still be getting welfare. Which is more than 5000 a year. Also the people who were stranded in their houses were not just elderly. Why do we hear all these reports about "our children are dying". Children are not elderly.

As for the superdome, they did have food and water. otherwise no one from there would have lived. The majorty of the casualties are those who did not follow proper evacuation plans.

Just a question...how does stealing a tv help a drug addicts pain? These people are stelaing for personal economic gain. The police are not worrying about people stealing food. Also the areas where looters are, were not as badly hit. they were looting. In ankle deep water. Pushing shopping carts.

I dont understand what reporters are supposed to do. If they give out something they will soon be bombarded by peeople looking for handouts. Potentially putting there own lives in danger.

Overall these people chose to live there. Plain and simple. They weighed the odds. In california if you live on a cliff during fire season, your car is always ready to go. Just in case. When i lived in illinois we always had supplies in the basement in case a tornadoe came. Thats just how it is.

Everysingle tier is to blame. From the people who didnt prepare, to Bush. EVERYONE! People are saying they had no warning. They saw what it did in cuba, what it did to miami. Thats warning enough. Now there is another hurricane forming...do you think more people will evacuate?

EDIT:~ This is from a report comprised by the Center for American Progress

*Median incomes in New Orleans and the other affected areas are significantly
lower than the national average. Median household income in New Orleans was
$31,369, well below the national median of $44,684. (Well above 5000)

* About 9 percent of households in New Orleans did not have a vehicle
available. (more than 9% of the people stayed. so most did have means to leave)

Bush administration means Bush + his administration. But don't think that Bush should have any less blame just because he is the president . . . oh wait that doesn't make any sense. There are a number of things Bush could have done such as federalizing the National Guard.

First off i am not stupid. and i think that is a very offensive thing to say. Also this is a debate not an insult match. The mods don't approve of things like that to be posted.

Moving on, the actuall pverty rate is 27%. Also yes only 9% of household don't have cars. But a hosuehold includes children who cannot drive. Also that average is from the entire population. 27% is a big precent. And their income in included in that number. Thats why it is an median. Because it takes all numbers into consideration.

Actually alot of the reports i have seen are of people still in their homes. Waving down helicopters from apartment balconies. People being cut out of their attics.

I'm not saying Bush deserves no blame. But everyone involved deserve some blame.

Actually alot of people live of welfare. Thats one of the biggest problems with it. People milk off the system. They use their children in order to get more money.

As for the fact that they have no choice but to stay there? every single immigrant into America does not have the monatary means to live comfortably? Those people have more than many immigrants do coming into our country. And those immigrants make it just fine.

Also the money for the Army Corp does not just appear. Our country is in a state of huge national debt. Mainly because of the war. But we are taking out bilion dollar loans from over seas. The money was not there. They're are many other budgett breakers like homeland security that are priority right now. How can we as a nation afford to protect ourselves and also give payout to people who dont have jobs.

there is the common misconception that these people were opressed and in poverty, and this was not their choice. There are always jobs. Just some people dont take them. We always needs garbage men, janitors, people to work at fast food chains. Just because someone is unemployed doesnt mean that they are by force. More than liekly it is choice.

EDIT: I'm not going to debate here anymore since i just seem to make people mad. Off to my politics forum where i can rant and rave! J to the K

Chiron_wp, as keepstar1331 has said, this is a discussion forum, but that doesn't mean we don't have to show respect towards the other members. I don't think any of us like to be insulted, so please avoid insulting other members just because you don't agree with what they say.

Tolerance and respect mates.

I know you are not stupid. You are, judging from this debate we've had, quite the contrary. I merely meant that if you did understand what I said before, which I had no doubt you did, you shouldn't pretend to misunderstand me or if you didn't reread it because I was quite clear. It is very annoying when people do that as I dare say you will find out at some point. And I hope you will reconsider not debating any more, I enjoyed this one very much .

I don't know how to argue when we have conflicting statistics so I'll move on from the car issue.

Those reports and footage are from the first five days as most if not all have been moved from New Orleans by now.

I do not say that Bush deserves all the blame either as I said in my last post, but there are things he could have done to help but which he choose not to.

Welfare fraud is a very difficult crime to commit especially since Bill Clinton reformed it.

Immigrants are also born into the mindset that says, "well, if I move to America everything will be better for me" these people already live in America and instead have the mindset of "well shoot, what now?" They don't really have anything to look forward to except their next crack vial.

The damage done will be much more costly than it would've been to keep the levees in good repair. Fun fact time Why the dollar hasn't dropped lower than it is now is because the middle east especially the Saudis have a huge investment in it. If they were to get rid of all their stocks and invest in another country the dollar would go down a little over 60% and our economy would plummet. Fortunately, this probably won't happen too soon as we are their number one oil customer. We've gone from a record surplus to a record deficit in record breaking time all due to Bush's ingenious tax cut plan paired with the spread democracy plan, if he didn't have enough money to pay for levees and such it was certainly no ones fault but his and his economists. We really don't take that well of care of our poor and the numbers do show. Welfare, food stamps, and other such programs have gotten less and less funding for years.

In capitalism it is impossible for everyone to have a job. In my experience from working at homeless shelters most of them do not enjoy living on the street but either have a very low paying job ($5.50 /hour is definitely not enough to live off of in this country) or cannot find one at all.

MOD EDIT: Please read the rules; offensive language, or using symbols to represent a swear word, is not allowed on the forums. Please be more careful in the future. Thanks, Mason.

Yeah, keep it a lot more friendly, folks.

As such, I'd like to say this: if you want to blame the government, try state and local.

Millions of dollars have been pumped into New Orleans and other cities to make them safer from terrorist attacks. You would assume that the canal levee's would be strengthend with this money, but they weren't. Where'd that money go? You're right, it didn't go to the Army Corp of Engineers. But lack of funding for the military I would place more of former President Clinton's obscene cutbacks, not Bush. Bush has had more pressing issues to fund, like say a war in several parts of the world? Homeland security?

People have been complaining about the National Guard not being called up enough. The National Guard is not called up by the President unless in time of war. It's called up by the Governor.

Today, word came out that the first time Bush was in New Orleans, the day after Katrina struck, he presented a plant to the Mayor of New Orleans and the Governor of Louisianna, for relief effort, rebuilding, etc. He had one already prepared. The Governor of Louisianna said she needed 24 hours to decide whether or not to run the plan. 24 hours to 'get her head around it'.

Also, even if the evacuations weren't completed, why wasn't the Superdome stocked with food and water? They knew it would be used as a shelter; they knew when they built it. Why wasn't the city prepared for this hurricane? It's not the Federal governments fault that New Orleans wasn't ready to weather the storm. It's the city governments, and the state governments.

EDIT: Just saw the next post.

Not to go off topic but there are many who would dispute that neo liberalism 'freeing the markets completely from state interference' would never work. If you did that then you relinquish control to the large multinationals which would continue to grow and eat each other up until there McDonalds has control over everything. Capitalism did not start with industrialisation, but with farming where larger farms began to out perform smaller farms because they could produce more, under cut the competition and had control of more assets. Smaller farmers went out of business while the richer ones grew in wealth. Neo-liberalism is good if your a big fish, but that’s about it, everyone else is destined to serve. *Shane quickly makes for the political thread* (please check there for what I believe capitalism is inherently evil, I think it's called veritas).

Now with relation to this topic I think Katrina may have highlighted a problem with the American economy it was a bit embarrassed about, that is the inequalities between the Richest and poorest US citizens. There is no doubt that it was the poorest New Orleans (NO) citizens who bore the brunt of this tragedy and I refuse to accept that this was because they where gambling with their lives or ignorant, unmotivated or anything of the sort.

The fact is that some people simply could not afford to leave their homes, This could have very well been because they had no where to go to. Assuming you had barely enough money to afford a tick out of New Orleans and managed to find a Bus or train to take you) what exactly should you do then? Where do they go? How do they get food? How do they get back? It's ok if you live in Middle America and can afford to leave your home at the drop of a hat, (and why shouldn't you?) but not everyone is so mobile and one of the tragedies of poverty is that it ties you down to the same place and situation, and is passed on from generation to generation (in many cases) If your born into poverty you will have significantly less life chances than a person who is not, this has been shown again and again in countless pieces of research.
So many people died in New Orleans that no one can guess at the death toll. The authorities knew what would happen if a category 4 or 5 hurricane N.O. still they did nothing to ensure the city had a competent strategy for evacuation.
The fact that 10'000+ of people died is unacceptable when this was so preventable. People should have been made aware of the dangers are required to leave their home (look at the example of the typhoon which hit Japan a few days ago, it was much smaller but look at how well the evacuation plan worked, it can be done, and it’s not beyond the wit of the US Administration to work out how to do it with the resources of the wealthiest country in the world behind them). It’s no good to sift blame from the government to the local officials. The fact is that the people of N.O. where let down badly and politicians are having a game of pass the buck, it's absolutely disgusting! Yes there should be political discussion about it few issues are as important as this, but for the elected officials, (particularly the high ranking ones) to be bickering and shift blame as far away from them selves as possible when there are people in N.O. yet to be found is beyond me.

And I'm sorry but it is absolutely laughable that Bush is deciding to carry out an investigation using his own administration (by doing this he’s IMO he’s absolving him self of any responsibility for the calamity, and how can he possibly do that as the most powerful elected representative in the US?). Where’s the objectiveness in that? Why doesn't the state have control over all the US's resources in the case of a natural disaster? Why did Bush say a couple of days after the disaster The US had the resources to deal with it when the obviously didn't It took tem the better part of a week to accept aid from the red cross and UN. This was foreseen years ago, it its a disaster which could have been managed far better than it was.

Ok. I am sorry Dana_Scully, but I know you probebly tried to not offend anyone, but your whole statment below offended me immensly.

(Dana_Scully)