Ok, I was just listening to the audio version of HBP and I noticed a strange line that I haven’t noticed before. Chapter 28 “ Flight of the prince” I am not sure what page number because I don’t have the book in front of me, but it is near the beginning. After Snape kills DD and all the DE and Snape go back into the castle Harry realizes that he is able to move again. He performs the petrificus totalas hex on the one remaining DE and then after he runs into the castle down the steps after Snape. Now pay attention to this next part. Harry is thinking to himself.
<Narration>
“He had to get to DD and he had to catch Snape somehow the two things were linked together. He could reverse what had happened if he could get them both together. DD could not have died.”
How does Harry know this?
I have never noticed this line before. This is a very strange line indeed. I have no idea what JK could be trying to hint at here. I think this calls for closer examination. I wouold like to hear your thought process on this.
Full Version: Chapter 28 "flight Of The Prince"
well all dis really is a bit of a strange part i fink dat it really is somthin linkin to dd not dead because in her interview JKR said dat a very imp character is not going to die in book 6
Either Harry was simply in shock and believed that if he'd been able to turn back time, everything would've been all right, or... hmm... Harry didn't take the Felix potion which "tells" people what to do... or I don't know 
I think Rowling has just done a very good job of mimking the way ppl actually think. Harry is very angry and confused at the time. He thoughts are jumbled. He's thinking he has to catch Snape and he has to get to DD. These two things are linked because Snape killed DD and he's probably thinking there is no way DD could really be dead so I can make things right and get this all figured out if I can catch Snape and get to DD.
or something like that
or something like that
| QUOTE (bubotuber_pus @ Sep 14 2005, 02:57 PM) |
| Either Harry was simply in shock and believed that if he'd been able to turn back time, everything would've been all right, or... hmm... Harry didn't take the Felix potion which "tells" people what to do... or I don't know |
Ok but even if harry was to turn back time, why would he need Snape And DD together? Why are they somehow linked? I Don't thin JK would write something like this if had no meaning in the future.
| QUOTE (Obliviator @ Sep 14 2005, 01:19 PM) |
| Ok but even if harry was to turn back time, why would he need Snape And DD together? Why are they somehow linked? I Don't thin JK would write something like this if had no meaning in the future. |
Because they were together in the final scene? Because all this happened betwen them two? (I mean the killing). You know, I feel it's a relevant quote but right now I can't tell why she put it. I have to think about it...
Time-turners maybe... But it's too simple.
I know this is a difficult one. In POA Harry and Hermione went back in time to save Sirus and Buckbeak but they were in the hospital wing when they turned back time, so why would Snape and DD be together this time?
And you are absolutely right. A timeturner would be way too simple. JK would not use the same thing twice in her books.
And you are absolutely right. A timeturner would be way too simple. JK would not use the same thing twice in her books.
Rowling has said that you dont mess around with going back in time to undo a death. Preventing a death from occuring is one thing, but undoing an already completed death is another. SO i dont think time turners have anything to do with this.
I think you're taking the words too literally. I agree with Solorund here. JKR was simply describing Harry's mindset in the wake of this horribly momentous event, which had just utterly shocked Harry's world. For the narrator (JKR) to describe Harry's thinking in this situation is not at all uncommon to third-person limited. In this instance, the narrator (JKR) is speaking exactly what is going through Harry's mind, which at this time is a jumbled mess. His mentor has just died. The teacher who Harry hates and that hates him but that his mentor constantly assured him was perfectly trustworthy (wow, that's a mouthful) had just killed him. Harry is finding himself unable (not surprsingly) to cope with DD's death and is thinking irrationally that somehow he can make it right if he can just get the two together. That he can somehow fit these broken pieces back together like a puzzle if he can just get those pieces in the same place. It is nothing more than Harry's irrational thinking. I don't think it has any significance beyond showing us Harry's mindframe at the moment.
Right now I'm still ambiguous: it can be like this that Harry simply was in shock and thought that if he could put the two people together, it wouldn't happen. I'm more for that. The hidden meaning can be that something more could be revealed if he put the pieces of the puzzle together, having (or thinking more of) Snape and DD.
"He had to get to DD"
"he had to catch Snape"
Maybe that's an idea for the book 7. To get to DD (whether he's dead or alive, f. ex. on the portrait) and then catch Snape (for some information or - if you believe that Snape's evil- to hurt him).
"He had to get to DD"
"he had to catch Snape"
Maybe that's an idea for the book 7. To get to DD (whether he's dead or alive, f. ex. on the portrait) and then catch Snape (for some information or - if you believe that Snape's evil- to hurt him).
| QUOTE (marire @ Sep 16 2005, 04:24 AM) |
| I agree with Solorund and traz-ak, Harry's just confused, and don't want to accept the truth that Dumbleore is dead. I don't want to accuse any personal but some of these topics sound like that people are just trying to invent something mysterious in every sentence of book. Although there migth be some meaningful sentences, you shouldn't mix the panic and confusion Harry had after he had witnecced DD death into something bigger. Sorry if I made a lecctured, but I was bursting to say this |
FYI
I was in no way trying to invent something mysterious. This line has been brought up recently by some very big potter fans I know. You already sound like you have it all figured out that all it is is panic, but the truth is that YOU DO NOT. Nor does anyone else. I was simply just asking for comment on this line. By no means did I make any claim as to what my original post was implying. Maybe you ought to read these posts more carefully next time before you go bashing someones post. I thought it would make for interesting discussion but it is obvious that some people are so narrow minded that they cannot find the mystique in certain discussions. I have read some pretty far fetched ideas on this site, things that are blantley obviously no way going to happen but never once have I harshed on someone just for posting a thought or theory. I respect anyones opinion on anything. Anyway I will leave this at that and get back on topic. Now we all know JK puts lines in her books that are of very importance (Hidden Clues) Maybe this could be one, maybe not. That is why I posted this thread to get your opinion not to be bashed. Usually when Harry is confused and just thinking at random, usually the narration will convey this, but this time it did not. Once again I am not favoring one idea over another. I am still up in the air over this mysterious line.
Oh and by the way I DO accept the truth that DD is dead but I have drawn my own conclusions to why he is still alive but that is another topic. This is NOT why I made this post.
Oh and BTW I am sorry if I made a lecture out of this but I was bursting to say this.
@Obliviator: you're right with many too far-fetched ideas. This one you put isn't so far-fetched as the other I've read. The quote you put may mean something, but it doesn't have to (like almost all quotes from HP books we use).
I'm for the idea that Harry was stressed and shocked, that's why he was thinking like that or that it's a bit of foreshadowing that he will have to contact DD and Snape in book 7.
Edit: I see that marire changed his/her post and there's only a smilie here now. I'm not a moderator or something but one liners are not allowed...
I'm for the idea that Harry was stressed and shocked, that's why he was thinking like that or that it's a bit of foreshadowing that he will have to contact DD and Snape in book 7.
Edit: I see that marire changed his/her post and there's only a smilie here now. I'm not a moderator or something but one liners are not allowed...
Bubotuber,
You are absolutely right when you say not all quotes in the books don't nessesarily mean something, but it was a very interesting line and you may be correct about him just being confused and shocked and I accept that, most likely this is the meaning behind this line, but still is interesting.
Thanks for your opinion.
You are absolutely right when you say not all quotes in the books don't nessesarily mean something, but it was a very interesting line and you may be correct about him just being confused and shocked and I accept that, most likely this is the meaning behind this line, but still is interesting.
Thanks for your opinion.
I see where you're coming from with the idea, and I often find myself as an advocate for the validity of discussions of these theories, whether I agree with them or not. In this case, I believe it is as straight-forward as I put it in my post. However, I enjoy discussion and am curious what precisely you think the line could mean if it does have hidden meaning. What possible implications are you suggesting it has exactly? What happens, then, if Harry can get DD and Snape back together? What important effect does this have toward the ultimate conclusion? I know you'll just be guessing to answer any of these questions, but that's exactly what I'm asking for here: just a guess.
Well you see the main reason I had started this post is because this actually threw me for a loop. I really didn't know what to make of it. I wanted to hear what others had thought about it. I am usually pretty good at this stuff, but this time I am at a lost for words. Sorry. Right now my only speculation is perhaps when Harry was thinking he had to somehow get snape and DD together, there could be some way that the "Priori-incantatem spell would possibly cause something to happen, but i don't even think that makes sense because for all we know is that priori-incantatem is a spell that performs the last spells that a wand performs in reverse order. I don't know I am just rambling. Sorry. I need to think about this some more.
Hmmm... Well, I don't know how Priori Incantatem cound do anything. It only shows an echo of spells cast. It doesn't actaully reverse them or even recast them. It only shows what they were.
Maybe if he could put all the links between DD and Snape together, it all would work properly? Something that would made Harry understand what really happened?
doesn't priori incantatem require shared wand cores?
the prior incantato thing (or whatever it was - i know it was something like that
) that Mr Diggory used in GOF sounds more like what you're talking about.
and even that only creates a shadow of the last spells cast, so i can't see how that would really help much. unless you're saying that if Harry could perform this, he could watch what happened again to get answers...is that what you mean?
IMO, what Harry says here is just shock. i mean he's just lost his guardian and friend hasn't he? his greatest of protectors and everything, so this part is just a clever insight into Harry's state of mind that JK has provided for us. it could have hidden meanings though, and i'm quite intrigued as to what they could be...hmm, let me have a think about this...
the prior incantato thing (or whatever it was - i know it was something like that
) that Mr Diggory used in GOF sounds more like what you're talking about.and even that only creates a shadow of the last spells cast, so i can't see how that would really help much. unless you're saying that if Harry could perform this, he could watch what happened again to get answers...is that what you mean?
IMO, what Harry says here is just shock. i mean he's just lost his guardian and friend hasn't he? his greatest of protectors and everything, so this part is just a clever insight into Harry's state of mind that JK has provided for us. it could have hidden meanings though, and i'm quite intrigued as to what they could be...hmm, let me have a think about this...
I'm of the same opinion as traz and solorund: JKR was most likely wording things this way to depict the turmoil and confi=usion Harry is going through at the shock of Dumbledore's death. Somehow, in his mind, if he could catch Snape and get to Dumbledore, everything would be right. Dumbledore, after all, had instructed Harry to Get Snape and only Snape. Furthermore, Dumbledore always has made things alright for Harry in the past, the shock of the death and Harry's confusion may well have had him wanting Dumbledore to make things right...
I do enjoy your ine of reasoning, however... Makes for interesting discussion...
Cheers!
I do enjoy your ine of reasoning, however... Makes for interesting discussion...
Cheers!
Well DD nas to be dead like JKR said an important character dies in book 6 and the only peeps that have died are DD and Aragog the spider and I dotn think he was very important lol
oh, i had completely forgotten about that. she did say an important character would die in 6 didn't she? but then JK's really sly, so when she said an important character would die, there was nothing to say he won't come back again.
do you think she'd be that mysterious? it would fit in with her style of writing wouldn't it?
do you think she'd be that mysterious? it would fit in with her style of writing wouldn't it?
There's a possibility that DD didn't die... And Rowling twists some things in her interviews. If she didn't intend to kill DD, she'd be able to say: "But I told you he'd die in the sixth book and didn't he? You got the impression he died".
yes, that's what i was thinking too.
it seems like the kind of thing she would find highly amusing
Interviewer: didn't you say in an interview that an important character would die in book 6? well...
JKR: yes but he did die didn't he? and everyone thought he had died, but i never technically said there was no way for him to return...
or something like that
that's not to say it will happen like that, i mean DD could actually be dead like she said he would be. but this is JK, so we shouldn't take what we hear from her at face value
it seems like the kind of thing she would find highly amusing
Interviewer: didn't you say in an interview that an important character would die in book 6? well...
JKR: yes but he did die didn't he? and everyone thought he had died, but i never technically said there was no way for him to return...
or something like that
that's not to say it will happen like that, i mean DD could actually be dead like she said he would be. but this is JK, so we shouldn't take what we hear from her at face value
Definitely 
So like Obliviator said: there's a line he/she noticed and it seems a bit weird for him/her. It may mean nothing and it can be a clue...
Rowling also said that HBP answers many questions. In my opinion not so many, but if we take her literally, it will be understood as she answered the question about Snape's loyalty. Not so fast, darling, hehe!!! In this book we get the impression we have answers for Snape's loyalty and it's true then we have questions answered!
So like Obliviator said: there's a line he/she noticed and it seems a bit weird for him/her. It may mean nothing and it can be a clue...
Rowling also said that HBP answers many questions. In my opinion not so many, but if we take her literally, it will be understood as she answered the question about Snape's loyalty. Not so fast, darling, hehe!!! In this book we get the impression we have answers for Snape's loyalty and it's true then we have questions answered!
wow that is a very strong line that is if he could get snape back he could reverse what happened how though i though a tie turner could not undo death but then again they stopped buck beack fro getting beheaded so what does this line mean??
The time-turner idea is definitely out for more than stylistic reasons:
In PoA, the 'future' Harry and Hermione were always actually following the Harry, Ron and Hermione of the 'past'. Because of the way the book is layed out, it's easy to forget that they were always going to save Sirius.
If Harry were to use a time-turner to save Dumbeldore, he would have seen himself do it at the time - the fact that he didn't renders the situation impossible.
In PoA, the 'future' Harry and Hermione were always actually following the Harry, Ron and Hermione of the 'past'. Because of the way the book is layed out, it's easy to forget that they were always going to save Sirius.
If Harry were to use a time-turner to save Dumbeldore, he would have seen himself do it at the time - the fact that he didn't renders the situation impossible.
But Hermione smashed all the Time Turners.
Ahh a common misconception. All time-turners in the Ministry Stock were destroyed. That does not mean that every time-turner in the world is destroyed. Plus, with such a stock of time-turners, the Ministry must have placed some importance on them, and would acquire a new stock as quick as possible. So in my opinion, there is still Time-turners out there.
~Albus
~Albus
I have to agree with Albus-this hardley happens alot but there are times-Not all time tuners could have been completely destroyed it would make no sense to make abunch then never make any agian, but with this therory it could be very well related to my therory on DD's death but this is not the place for it you can find it Here this might acully help with your theroy about how Harry was thinking that night but it might not either way I'm trying to help.
~Serverus Snape
~Serverus Snape
QUOTE
“He had to get to DD and he had to catch Snape somehow the two things were linked together. He could reverse what had happened if he could get them both together. DD could not have died.”
I didn't really understand this part either. I wasn't thinking about going back in time, what I was thinking of is that Snape had healed Draco when Harry used Sectumsempra on him. Maybe, in the heat of the moment, Harry thought that Snape could somehow heal Dumbledore. Of course, we know that no one can return someone from the dead, which is why it was spontaneous. Harry wasn't thinking straight because he just saw what he described as the greatest wizard he ever met or will meet, die.
Perhaps thats just it. 'Dumbledore could not have died.' He must've been thinking along the same lines that a couple of us here do, respectfully. How could he have died if he was so great, so kind, all of the above? Since he was in such disbelief that Dumbledore was dead, he must've been thinking that Snape had merely hurt him and if he got the two together, he could force Snape to heal him.
Just my opinion
I believe JKR only created timeturners to make the plot of POA work, she said that they had all been destroyed at the department of mysteries so that readers couldn't ask why wizards couldn't just keep going back in time to stop deaths or events.etc.
i thibk he was just in denial, i mean we all are when someone dies right? i didn't think it was strange at all.
This could mean alot of different things, like he was in denial, or that he was still following DD's orders and trying to get Snape like DD has asked. But I think that it was just Harry following DD's orders, because DD made Harry promise that he would. Harry even said that DD never stop following his orders eventhough he died, so Harry was just following DD's orders even though he is dead.
I think they are linked because when DD
told Snape "Severus do it get it overwith." or sonethin like that I think that
DD was telling Snape to kill him and still protect Draco.
told Snape "Severus do it get it overwith." or sonethin like that I think that
DD was telling Snape to kill him and still protect Draco.
I think hat this line is just Harry clinging to any last bit of hope there is left becasue he just doesnt want DD dead and coulnt bear it if he was and therefore because he is in denial that he is dead he thinks if he finds Snape then he can reverse the spell and make DD OK again because he isnt dead and therefore the spell can be reversed.
i'm not sure if that makes sense but it makes sense to me
i'm not sure if that makes sense but it makes sense to me
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