I was really interested by something that cereberus mentioned in the 'Is Harry a Horcrux' thread and as it was drifting slightly off topic in there, I thought it best to move it over here.

Anywho, this is what cereberus said (slightly abridged ):-



Whilst I'm not entirely sure about Dumbledore choosing to die because he suspected that Harry was a horcrux, I do think that Dumbledore knew he was going to die.

We have the mutterings of Trelawney as she wandered along the corridor which alludes to a card reading she did - personally, I think that it was probably Malfoy who had the reading there because I don't think that either Snape or Dumbledore would have put faith in such a shaky thing, but it does show that JKR is using cards to predict things.

Hence, the imagery from 'The Lightning Struck Tower' is simply far too strong to be ignored, even though JKR doesn't directly refer to it in the chapter itself.

Take a look at this. When I first read HBP, that was the image that immediately leapt to mind. Given the name of the chapter too, I think that JKR definitely was making "anvil" sized hints about the meaning of this card.

I don't know a great deal about tarot, but I do know that The Tower card is a very bad card to find in a reading. It indicates some sort of huge loss, possibly a major disaster. All security as far as 'the questioner' is concerned is going to be destroyed and what has always been familiar will change. Illusions are going to be shattered and truth about people and situations will be revealed at last. Well, Harry certainly had a rude awakening in that chapter and change certainly did come. This would seem to point towards possibly a truth about Snape being revealed and certainly doesn't bode well for those of us who believe he's innocent. Sadly. Or, of course, it could simply refer to Malfoy - revealing *his* true motivations and not hiding behind his "mask" of respectability he's maintained so far.

At the very least, it symbolises a new beginning, probably for Harry, and so does sort of prepare the way for the rather different book I think the seventh one will be.

Any thoughts?

I've read somewhere in the Development of Snape's character in the Mugglenet that the Tower is taken form Tarot but I don't remember the discussion. I know that there's a card entitled "Hungman" or something like that which reminded me immediately about "Levicorpus" spell (the man on the Tarot card is hanging upside down by the ankle)...

Dana, I've just looked at the link in your post to the tarot card of 'The Tower', and I am gaping at it! Like, WOW!

I'm going to go through my entire tarot deck now, thanks for opening my eyes a little further. I'll be back once I've had a squiz at them to post deeper views!

Interesting stuff.

I don't know much about Tarot myself (really, almost nothing!), but I was under the impression that each card has two readings, depending on which side is up. I've seen decks where the tower card is either being struck by lightening (right side up, positive change), or already destroyed (inverted, negative change). Anyone know more about the meaning of whether the card is right side up or inverted?

A few weeks after HPB came out there was a girl that either made a topic simular to this or just posted in a topic. Anyway, she was fluent in tarot and was talking about what the card meant and how it could have two meanings. They were not at all the same, but both could be applied to Harry in his situation, meaning that what would happen to Harry next (assuming Rowling is actually going with the tarot cards) is goign to be 1 of 2 things that is easily predicted by the cards.


Hmm, maybe that girl will show up here again

OK, I was searching for the Tarot Tower meaning and what I've found:

Basic Tarot Meaning

With Mars as its ruling planet, the Tower is a card about war, a war between the structures of lies and the lightning flash of truth. The Tower, as Wang points out, stands for "false concepts and institutions that we take for real." When the Querent gets this card, they can expect to be shaken up, to be blinded by a shocking revelation. It sometimes takes that to see a truth that one refuses to see. Or to bring down beliefs that are so well constructed. What's most important to remember is that the tearing down of this structure, however painful, makes room for something new to be built.

It seems it's ambiguous still and the events could be good or bad...

But look at this:
The Tower represents sudden and sometimes shocking changes in events ...
Snape good or bad? but read further:


negatively The Tower represents unecessary suffering. You may be falsely accused of something and suffer some form of imprisonment or isolation, or you may be the one causing the shock and change with a rebellious attitude
It fits Snape perfectly, I think, as the one who may be falsely accused and he'll be inprisoned and isolated because he killed DD

the main thing to remember with this rather unpleasant card is that this phase will pass and that a new direction or new opportunities can be created from it
I hope so!!!! It's not that bad card as it seems...

Oh, this is a really good topic!

Since we all seem to be sharing various interpretations of the Lightning-Struck Tower in Tarot here, I wanted to point out another article that I've read about it, which suggests that Dumbledore's death is not so much a death of all, but rather a shift in ideals -- click.

I particularly like this section from that page:

I think we are going pretty deep into meanings here but since the Tower card is also under the planet Mars it probably also predicts the coming war.
The centaurs have been talking about Mars being "bright tonight" since Book One ( we even went out to the country to see it for ourselves).
Besides the lightning having reference to Harry's scar and a great loss, striking the "Tower" and/or Dumbledore surely is the signal to LV that the war can actually begin in earnest. I don't think he expects Harry to be able to come at him without Dumbledore's assistance.
How much has JKR already predicted that in Book Seven that we'll all shake our heads and say "oh that's what she meant..."
PCG

Here you have a good link to the explanation of the Tarot cards: the Tower and the Hanged Man:
http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=65784
If Rowling used these as symbols (and I believe she did so, as she even showed Trelawney with the Tarot cards), I think that we can still have faith in Snape's redemption

Fascinating bit about the shift in ideals and the security blanket analogy. I, too, tend to think in terms of Harry needing to come to terms that, ultimately, he must face Voldemort alone. JKR is slowly ripping away those who could lend Harry significant assistance (i.e.: fight his battles for him...): Sirius, Dumbledore...

There's some very interesting speculation about the tarot links being discussed here. I am not at all familiar with the intricacies of tarot reading, but it ws also my understanding that each card has many menaings, depending when and which way they show up in the reading. To be sure, I am hoping we still will see Severus as a good guy in the end!

Cheers!

This theory is based on the pivotal scene in HBP, set in the astronomy tower. JK Rowling refers to the lightning struck tower. The Lightning Struck Tower is a tarot card, it depicts a tower being struck by lightning and someone falling off the battlements and another person lieing at the base. Harry is 16 years old when he enters the Tower and the Lightning Struck Tower is the sixteenth tarot card. Lightning in tarot is known as the fire of heaven, heaven in christian beliefs is were you go when you are dead, this ties in with Dumbledores death on the tower and falling from the ramparts, as depicted on the card. If we look at the previous tarot card, No.15, it depicts the rise of the devil and his followers. The card No.14 is the nun, a brief summary of the nun goes 'In short the Nun expresses the production of any combination, the result of the action of the ascending or creative forces, and of the descending or destructive forces figured by the star of Solomon'. Card No.13 is the Mem, depicting a skeleton and stating that all life is the has sprung from destruction. Peter Pettigrew sprung from the ddestruction to return. On to No.12 and we enter 2nd sectum of tarot. No.12 is a hanged man, expressing personality and a search for the divine immortality, believe or not! Is this a foreshadowing of the horcruxes? The 11th Tarot, does it depict the events of PS/SS. The 11th tarot card is strength, showing strength in adversity and a certain vitality. It is also a refletion of No.5 in the tarot system, so what is No.5? No.5 is the Pope. He depicts the Liberty to do good or bad, the Idea of life and being and of reunion. So these all fit but what about No.17, what will happen in year seven according to the tarot? No.17 is the Stars. This depicts a woman pouring the Water of Universal Life from one jug to another. This shows the eternal renewal and that we live in an endless cycle. The girls head is shrouded in butterflies and the best bit of the whole tarot card is there meaning-'Here we find the symbol of immortality. The soul (ibis or butterfly) will survive the body, which is only a place of trial (the ephemeral flower). The courage to bear these trials will come from above (the stars)'. That could be the key to the whole series. Immortality and the courage to bear the trials ahead. Harry may have to look to the stars, as Firenze said 'All is written in the stars, Humans do not see much of it'. Mars the bringer of war is bright, and therefore there will be war. Harry is a Leo and is ruled by the Sun, so we look at the meaning of Leo and the sun in relation to the Tarot cards. Here it depicts the suns meaning-'Following the sign of Cancer in the zodiac, Leo signifies the move away from home and family to be an individual in one's own right. This could be an issue for you if your birth chart has any planets in Cancer, as when you are affirming your right to live your own life, you may feel the retrogressive pull of family responsibilities (real or imagined), and perhaps actual pressure may be applied by your family of origin which may not like anyone stepping out of line. Compatibility in love relationships may be an issue here'. Therefore i ask you is it possible JK Rowling may have based the series on the Tarot, i do not believe she used The Lightning Struck Tower by chance.


MOD EDIT: Please do not double post, even in a thread you started. You secon post has been deleted and I copied it to this post. Use the EDIT button next time please.

Your second post:

Anyone is free to comment on this theory and if you want tarot site adresses then i can give them to you. I may update this theory when i decipher the end of book seven acording to the tarot, but that will require a lot of work!

This theory has been brought up in the forums before. I can't remember if it was a topic unto its own, or if it was discussed inside a different topic, but I do remember seeing it. If you do a search you could probably find it and see what other people thought of it.

I searched Tarot and it came up with no results so i went ahead and posted this one. There might have been one that was deleted, i haven't seen one since i came, but it was probably before my time.

Woooooooow, how long did that take you? Very deep!
I think that it is unlikely that JKR bases her books on the Tarot, but if she did, it would fit in well. The use of the lightning struck tower, maybe she looked at it and thought, well that fits in, lets use it. Basing a whole series of books on the Tarot would be pretty crazy.
There are so many amazing convinsing theorys that all provide an outstanding insight to book seven, but knowing what to beleive...

She might have incorporated the tarot cards into her story. I don't think she thought of the lightning struck tower card and then looked at the others and figured they'd just fit, that would be very coincidental!

If she did it this way, using the tarot cards as her basis, would also be extremely confusing, yet simple at the same time...like calculus.

Great find NickHilton, likewise for anyone else who brought it up. Your definition of the tarot cards are your interpretation or are they really those definitions?

My further examination has arrived. If we consider the card The Stars to be central to the plot of Book Seven we must delve even deeper into the tarot readings in order to predict the out come of this book. Upon examination on Tarot astronomy i observed the Leo the Lion, and Harry's star sign, fall under the topic of strength the card which falls eleventh in the tarot readings and first in my theory. The astronomical planet of The Stars is Mercury and the constellation is Andromeda and The Fishes. Mercury adopts the approach of retreat and reform. This means that when beaten they will retreat and reconsider before reforming and going again. Could this foreshadow an event in the seventh book? Amongst my searches i stumbled across a numeric values site, attempting to decipher the bible. It catalogues the numbers and presents there biblical meaning. Seventeen it says stands for Victory. So thus considered it seems there will be a difinative outcome to the seventh book. Another Tarot sight refers to the Number seventeen as ' A time of quiet strength for the Seeker'. Could JK Rowling have seen the Seeker? Could she have opted for the spirtiual truthes within Tarot, to form her novels around? Here i have devised a list of events for the seventh book:

1.) Harry and co will fight and lose a battle. It will not spell the end for them and they will retreat and devise a new plan.

2.) Victory will come to Harry or Voldemort. The Pope decides that we have the liberty for good or bad and Mercury decrees that we can choose to harm or stand up strong.

3.) There will be another victory for Harry, even if the prior victory is not his. It will not be an election campaign or lottery, it will be a quiet victory. I suggest he may find love, or in the case of his death find peacce with his parents.

It sure we must trust Trelawney sometimes lol....
When I read the book, at this moment, I was sure something was going to happen....

and just to add, edit exist...

Even though, I highly doubt JK has written an entire series of novels based off of Tarot cards, I don't think the Lighting Struck Tower was a mere coincidence. I wouldn't look too deeply into them, but I think it's safe to say that she meant to put in the LST to foreshadow the end of the 6th book. She may also be saying something about Trelawney, maybe there's more to her than meets the eye. Everybody has been saying how she's just a phony but maybe she'll prove to be more accurate than some may think...

So all in all, interesting theory but I don't think the Tarot cards have anything to do with the entire series and I don't think you'll be able to predict the ending of the series.

I dunno, I'm pretty unknowledgeable on Tarot, I'd have to look more into it.

The strange thing is that JKR did know that the LST was a tarot card, so she must know some. She wouldn't just look up that card for a simple statement, I mean its not that big of a deal. Its just something small that Trewlawney said.

So maybe...

What exactly are tarot cards? Card that can spell out the future or something?

This is very in depth and detailed and I am quite impressed with the amount of thought that you put into this. While I highly doubt JKR based the entire series on it. I do however agree with your probable plot for the seventh book, it seems highly likely.

All in all, keep up the good work, I'd like to hear what else you have to say on the matter.

~TheTwilightPrincess~

An intresting theory... but it is getting a bit complicated
like said before, i think jk incorporarted some aspects of the tarot in but not basing the entire series on them

I don't know whether this has been posted or not. I checked the search but I found nothing. If it has, then mods just close it. But if it hasn't, please let me say what I want to say.

We all know that Harry has a lightning shaped scar. And we also know that Dumbledore died (if he's dead) in the Astronomy Tower, which was called in the chapter "The Lightning Struck Tower". Do you see a connection here?

Why is it that this tower is called "The Lightning Struck Tower"? Could it be that if Harry wasn't there, these events wouldn't have taken place? Maybe it is a clue to point out that the lightning scar makes these events happen. Maybe that is the curse that lies in the scar.

It boggles my mind as to what is the significance between "The Lightning Shaped Scar" and "The Lightning Struck Tower".

On to your thoughts...

I'm not sure of the connection between the two. That is a good question. But as for the scar causing things to happen. I dont see how a scar can cause events to unfold.

I never really saw the significance until now...its possible they are somehow connected though..because most references from book to book are connected..if not its a really weird coincidence...

Not only was the tower the lightning struck tower, but that was the card Trelawney told Harry to be wary of.
I think it probably has a connection.
Steve, you say how you can't see how a scar can make events unfold, how have you been reading Harry Potter, obviously things you don't expect, such as a scar, can make things happen, we've learned that throughout the novels.

very interseting i neve made a connection between the two till now. Knowing JKR it is very possible. I have noticed little things here and there about refering to something lightning but really no significance. Who knows maybe it will all play out in the 7th book.

I don't think there's any connection. It seems too impossible for the scar to do anything but sit there and be a scar. Sure if once told Harry how Voldy was feeling but those times are long gone now that Voldy knows about it. So unless it acts like a nonverbal spell there is no way it could cause anything.

Well, I wouldn't exactly say it couldn't do anything. You guys have to remember, we're thinking in the Harry Potter world, not our own reality, and we all know that in the realm of HP, anything and everything can happen. Although a scar couldn't cause any events in our lives to happen, J.K just might see fit to somehow make it something like what an ancient rune would do. Maybe it kind of generates some power like runes do? I'm just throwing stuff out there, but always keep an open mind to things like this, since J.K can always be unpredictable.

Personally, I feel that it is very reasonable that they are somehow connected, although I know not in what way.

I like it, the fact that there could be a connection. Maybe it is just because of the AK-curse. That must be the symbol (rune maybe?) for that curse.

So Harry's scar is like that because it touched him and the tower is called that because the headmaster of Hogwarts was killed there. So it's like Dumbledore symbolises Hogwarts, so by striking him with 'lightning', it's the same as striking the tower.

As I recall-

Trelawney was walking ahead of Harry, and she was shuffling cards. Suddenly she came to "The Lightning-struck Tower" then she exclaimed "disaster!"

So basically she got a prediction right without going all trippy, and Jo used that chapter title as the indicator of disaster...I can recall I sat up in great interest [well...even more interest than before] when I saw that chapter title.

If you check out my signature that is the actual words Trewlawney spoke.

I made an entire theory based on this it was called The Lightning Struck Tower Theory, and can be located on the theory masterlist as Tarot Theory.

i think the great revelation and shock was DDs death and the illusion is that he will stay dead, let shope for this because i really cant stand see such a powerful, respectable wizard die so undignified

I think there is definitely a connection. And as to the replies that the scar can't actually cause that stuff to happen- ok, understandable thought; however, take away the scar from the tower, you're taking Harry away from the tower, meaning Malfoy doesn't succeed in disarming DD because DD doesn't have to use his last seconds to freeze Harry, he can properly defend himself. So, without the connection and without Harry and his Lightning scar on that tower, DD is still alive, Snape still is/appears to be loyal to DD, Malfoy can be hidden and protected by DD because the DEs will think DD killed Malfoy. As I said, IMHO there is definitely a connection. Kind of like flipping over the tarot card

I started this topic eons ago and completely forgot about it until I was kind of cleaning house a little this weekend. Unfortunately, the link to the original image is broken, so I was looking for another to replace it when I came across this article and I thought....wow. Mega-wow, actually You have a read, see what you think Particularly in reference to the whole fool thing...oh dear, doesn't bode well for Snape's innocence *sigh*

Ooh, and here's the link to the image of the card.

Merlin! No, Louise, it doesn't bode well... at first glance.

I've given this some thought though, and this is what I came up with.

The tower card is, like you said, about lies eventually coming out and that the reader (or person the cards are read for) will have his world turned upside down because it was built on lies.

Now, the obvious conclusion seems to be that Snape really did betray Dumbledore, and that Harry's world crashes down because it turns out that Dumbledore was not so wise in the end and that all he stood for in terms of trust was a lie and a mistake. The Fool could either be Harry or Dumbledore...

But there's an obvious flaw here - it was Trelawney reading the cards. (I just spent an embarrassing amount of time - for a confessed HP addict - looking for the spot where she talks about the 'dark young man' to establish that she was indeed reading the cards for Harry, so I'm in an itchy mood. )

Anyways, Trelawney. Now, the whole theme of divination is very, very interesting, seeing as Jo once said herself (can't remember where, sorry) that she didn't believe in fate, or chance - only in choice. It's funny, Trelawney is a fake, no doubt, but she has a great Seer for a great great Grandmother, and that gene seems to have come through twice that we know of. However, she is herself wholly unaware of those times. I love the irony.

For the rest though, her methods of divination are awfully... mechanical, methodical - not spontaneous at all. She uses tea leaves, crystal balls and cards, and the weirdest thing - a prescribed textbook teaching one how to see into the future. She tells Hermione that she doesn't have what it takes, but what really happens is that Hermione can see through the rubbish.

For all this, Trelawney has a funny measure of success. She saw the black dog in Harry's cup, but failed to see it's true meaning. She often predicts things that come true in roundabout ways, leaving her looking like a joke. That part where Harry and Ron make up predictions about themselves, and it coming true (see bajab's post here) is a wonderful example of how these methods have some bit of truth in them, but it is almost always misunderstood and therefore pretty worthless. It's all a joke. Misinterpretation.

Firenze then comes and teaches something else - but essentially the same message comes across - there are signs, but they are often misread. He basically teaches Harry that it's all guesswork. He scoffs at Trelawney's 'human nonsense'. The scope of Trelawney's brand of fortune telling is much smaller than that of the Centaurs, but unlike them, she refuses to acknowledge that she can be wrong. The small piece of truth concealed in her predictions is trivial - so what if Saturn means that people should not handle hot water, or whatever? Yes, Saturn does indicate fire, but Trelawney fails to interpret it so that it has any meaning. At first glance it seems to make sense, but when all is revealed, you realise that what she saw was just the (unimportant) tip of the ice berg - think Sirius. At first, yes, it was very ominous that Harry might be dying soon, but measured against the (positive) impact of Sirius in his life, the Grimm starts to look very silly. Trelawney took the dog at face value, making it all very melodramatic, and it was just so much more than that.

And all this mechanical fortune telling is also thrown into sharp contrast to the real predictions she makes. It's very clear that Jo has made a definite distinction.

The Centaurs, too, have a better perspective on divination and their ability to predict the future, because they know more. Like 'a little bit of knowledge gets you into a lot of trouble' sort of thing - they know enough to realise that they know very little.

So what does this say about Trelawney's Lightning Struck Tower prediction? I say it's simply the tip of the ice berg - the unimportant one. At first glance, and without knowing more, it does indeed look as though she predicted Snape's betrayal. But she wasn't in a trance when she made this prediction - she was again busy with her trivial pursuit (no pun intended) of desperately trying to see into the future. (Which is something that Dumbledore, McGonagall and Hermione laugh at - pretty damning).

The only logical conclusion is that she has it wrong again. Yes, a man did fall off a tower, and Harry's world came crashing down, but this is not the important bit. Yes, it seems dark and treacherous - ominous, like the idea of the Grimm, but in the end, it will be exactly like the Grimm - a means to a better end that is yet to be revealed.

Bottom line - thank goodness it was Trelawney. I'm not worried at all.

(Just a comment on the Goat God bit in that link you gave, Louise. The goat constellation is the Capricorn (yay me! ). It might be interesting to note that Snape is a Capricorn himself (9 January), and Aberforth also has this goat connection. The goat symbolises temples, lodges - safety? Let's hope so...)

Firstly, just want to say, WOW to Nickhilton - great work. This thread got me looking through my own tarot deck, and I found something else. Card #1. Keep in mind what happened when Harry was 1 year old as you read the following:

Card #1 is the Magician, and the definition is: Traditionally, this card stands for a person of great power and prescense with a mastery of the surrounding environment and personal will. There is purpose here perfectly aligned to the moment and in tune with the forces of nature in all their majesty. Not someone to be dismissed lightly, but held in respect and even some awe.
Reversed, this card indicates someone who will use others for selfish purposes, or that an ill-conceived plan will founder.

I'm a little shaky here, first post you know. Why has it not been considered ( I have not seen a thread on this), that DD is not dead? Would it not be a shrewd move on his part to arrange with Snape to appear to be dead? How better to trick Voldemort into a false sense of security. At DD's advanced age, he would surely know spells and hexes that could simulate death. Snape would know these too.

Hello I believe in magic, it is discussed on these forums the possibility of a faux death on Dumbledore's part. I myself was (am ) a contender to the theory that Dumbledore will return. However, on August 2nd **ducks to avoid tomato for flogging this quote** JKR said that Dumbledore was definitely dead and would not pull a Gandalf. In all fairness though, there are still some theories that allow for Dumbledore to return, although the geneal concensus is that he is dead for good. But hope isnt a bad thing, and we will have to wait until Book seven to be entirely sure beyond a reason of a doubt.


Here is a quick list of links to the Discussions:

The Death
Rowling is framing Snape and Dumbledore
Dumbledore's Horcrux
Will Dumbledore return? If so how?
The Last Night of Dumbledore

~Albus

interesting theory i have two ideas, one the ighhting struck towner means dd the tower of support in hary's life will die or that harry causes that tower to fall (harry=scar=lioghting

It was obviously a simple foreshadowing of what was going to happen later in the book.

This is interesting--it would bear out my speculation on the DH horcrux thread that Harry may have actively sucked in a bit of LV at the time of the rebounded AK, making himself by his own natural magical action the horcrux that can do in its owner.

Harry does have a relatively unselfconscious magical power that seems particularly well-described as an alignment or attunement with the forces of nature themselves.

this one is a little big for me. I doubt i would have something to truly say here other than I think The Lightning Struck Tower is an important name. I think HArry will return there in DH for some reason, amybe clues.

Trelawney will figure into the last book in a big way. I think people have largely over looked her in the topics on Deathly Hallows so far. I think she will find out that she made the Voldemort (?) Harry Potter prophecy some how and that will push her to help Harry in some way, if she can. There are those who say she is useless, but i think otherwise