I think this one's different enough from the other Snape threads to justify a new one but the mods are more than welcome to disagree with me!
Snape says in Spinner's End that the information he provided Voldemort with led to the murder of Emmeline Vance. If we take this as true (which, in the absence of further information we may have to) I ask:
1. If he is truly good, why would he do this?
2. If he is truly bad then why choose her specifically?
I am in the 'Snape is good' camp and cannot justify it; those in the other camp may question if he has an old grudge against her from Hogwarts?
Full Version: Emmeline Vance
Yeah, I think the only reason he specified Vance was because we had just seen her death reported in the Daily Prophet. He is just making reference to the most recent killings, claiming (truthfully or not) that they happened because of him.
I really don't think she has any significance. No more so than Sturgis Podmore or Dedalus Diggle.
I really don't think she has any significance. No more so than Sturgis Podmore or Dedalus Diggle.
| QUOTE (Darth_Oz @ Oct 6 2005, 03:22 AM) |
| Snape says in Spinner's End that the information he provided Voldemort with led to the murder of Emmeline Vance. If we take this as true (which, in the absence of further information we may have to) I ask: 1. If he is truly good, why would he do this? 2. If he is truly bad then why choose her specifically? |
This is the same question that I get hung up on when I try to see Snape as good. Perhaps he was just taking credit for Emmeline's death when he wasn't responsible, but, as an Order member, he certainly would have had the information which would allow the DEs to find her.
Because we met her as part of Harry's rescue party in OotP, she became a real character to us much the same as Amelia Bones did although Vance was not as important. For her to be a part of that group, she must have been one of the more trusted members of the order. This is a death that I cannot justify under any circumstances and it keeps pulling me back to the Evil Snape side.
Perhaps Snape can justify it as supplying information to Voldemort to prove his dedication since he seems to have little or no use for women involved in the war effort.
Well, if Snape really is on the good side I don't think DD would suggest killing people to convince Voldy that Snape is on the bad side. Forthat reason, if Snape is good then i don't think Vance is really dead. According to DD there are ways of concealing people to make others think they are dead, or something like that. I cant remember exactly what he says.
Ohh...great idea Solorund! 
However, I believe she is dead. I think it was a way for Jo to kill off a character that we knew, but were not emotionally invested in. Just to show us that the murders did happen. I mean, we saw glimpes of her throughout the series. herard her name, even met her (albeit briefly)in OotP.
If her death, as stated in HBP, was a direct result of Snape's actions, that does nothing but solidify my feelings that Snape is guilty. (But I will leave that there. That is for another thread.
) The Order members were not hiding in Headquarters any longer, for this was directly after Sirius' death. They all knew of the dangers. Even the Weasley's were aware and took steps to ensure thier safety. ( Poor Molly lugging around that clock all the time! 
)
Yes, I believe her death was a way for us to realize the severity of the situation. And also the dangers facing everyone in the Order (and non-Order members as well) during this time of open warfare.
However, I believe she is dead. I think it was a way for Jo to kill off a character that we knew, but were not emotionally invested in. Just to show us that the murders did happen. I mean, we saw glimpes of her throughout the series. herard her name, even met her (albeit briefly)in OotP.If her death, as stated in HBP, was a direct result of Snape's actions, that does nothing but solidify my feelings that Snape is guilty. (But I will leave that there. That is for another thread.
) The Order members were not hiding in Headquarters any longer, for this was directly after Sirius' death. They all knew of the dangers. Even the Weasley's were aware and took steps to ensure thier safety. ( Poor Molly lugging around that clock all the time! ) Yes, I believe her death was a way for us to realize the severity of the situation. And also the dangers facing everyone in the Order (and non-Order members as well) during this time of open warfare.
I only see a few possibilities here.
As others have suggested, Snape was just taking credit for something he did not do. He knows that Voldemort does not share a lot of information with his Death Eaters. Bellatrix not being told how Voldemort found Emmeline would be normal. If this is what happened it does not really conclude which side Snape is on.
If Snape did disclose her location to Voldemort then why did he do it?
One option is that he is evil and has betrayed Dumbledore. Emmeline was an order member that could easily be killed. Attacking someplace like the Burrow would have been a major undertaking.
The other is that Emmeline was sacrificed to help Snape's cover. If this is what happened I would think it was done with her consent. I do not think Dumbledore would have done this otherwise. She would have been aware of the attack knowing her mission was to wait for Voldemort and then try to escape. A very dangerous mission but worth the risk if it placed Snape at Voldemort's side.
I think there is enough room here that Rowling can still write Snape however she pleases in the last book and make it believable.
Sort of off-topic but you should see Snapelover's latest fiction. It is very good and deals with the death of Emmeline Vance.
As others have suggested, Snape was just taking credit for something he did not do. He knows that Voldemort does not share a lot of information with his Death Eaters. Bellatrix not being told how Voldemort found Emmeline would be normal. If this is what happened it does not really conclude which side Snape is on.
If Snape did disclose her location to Voldemort then why did he do it?
One option is that he is evil and has betrayed Dumbledore. Emmeline was an order member that could easily be killed. Attacking someplace like the Burrow would have been a major undertaking.
The other is that Emmeline was sacrificed to help Snape's cover. If this is what happened I would think it was done with her consent. I do not think Dumbledore would have done this otherwise. She would have been aware of the attack knowing her mission was to wait for Voldemort and then try to escape. A very dangerous mission but worth the risk if it placed Snape at Voldemort's side.
I think there is enough room here that Rowling can still write Snape however she pleases in the last book and make it believable.
Sort of off-topic but you should see Snapelover's latest fiction. It is very good and deals with the death of Emmeline Vance.
| QUOTE |
| As others have suggested, Snape was just taking credit for something he did not do. He knows that Voldemort does not share a lot of information with his Death Eaters. Bellatrix not being told how Voldemort found Emmeline would be normal. If this is what happened it does not really conclude which side Snape is on. |
You know...that could be more plausible than I orst thought. Butthen...who gave them the information to begin with? If Snape s getting the credit, wouldn't there be another Death eater out there saying, "Hey wait a minute I told you that!". See...I can not get around the fact that Snape really was the one who handed than information over.
Secondly, can not, under any circumstances, see Dumbledore and Emmeline agreeing to allow herself to be captured and killed, just for Snape's sake. My mind can not wrap around that concept.
I would love it if someone could try and convence me though...anyone?
And last, Voldemort and all of the Death Eaters for that matter, would not be taking credit for a murder that didn't happen. I mean to say that if Emmeline faked her own death...then that could open a big 'ol can of worms. That would allow us to believe that Snape being attached to both murders (Emmeline's and Dumbledore's) and Emmeline being able to fake a death after a Avada Kedavra cruse...couldn't Dumbledore too?
But then agian...wouldn't they share that knowledge with everyone? Or would they have to preplan the whole thing? Oh man...I just seriously confused myself here...BTW Greg:
| QUOTE |
| Sort of off-topic but you should see Snapelover's latest fiction. It is very good and deals with the death of Emmeline Vance. |
That was very nice of you to say!
I think the only risk Snape had by bluffing Bellatrix and Narcissa was if one of them told Voldemort how to find Emmeline. Outside a few death eaters, I do not not think they really shared anything with each other. If one gave valuable information to Voldemort, I would think they would keep it to themselves. Now Lucius and Narcissa would share information, Crabbe and Goyle would (It takes them working together to equal one brain) and of course Narcissa and Bellatrix but that is about it.
Snape was risking blowing his cover only if either Bellatrix or Narcissa gave Voldemort Emmeline's location. Narcissa is not a field agent so I doubt she could have tracked down Emmeline. Since Bellatrix is about as close to Voldemort as anyone can get, I doubt she would be used to track down a lower order member like Emmeline.
Now I can see where Dumbledore or Emmeline could go along with a plan to use someone as bait. I think Dumbledore realizes that some may have to be sacrificed to win the war. I also think he sacrificed himself at the end of HBP to elevate Snape to Voldemort's side. I think Dumbledore used lower ranking order members to win Snape enough favor to enter back into Voldemort's trust.
I think this all goes back to the Wizard Chess that Rowling started the series out with. Emmeline would have been a pawn and Dumbledore the Queen. Dumbledore did not fear death and I do not think this is an uncommon belief in the older wizards/witches. I think Dumbledore has been moving pieces around and sacrificing some to place Harry (King) and Snape (The knight since your stories paint a noble picture of him) in a position to check-mate Voldemort in the end. I know this is a crude analogy but it fits since chess played such a big roll in book one.
I think either one of these ideas are possible as well as the one we Snape lovers do not want to see happen. While Emmeline's death does create a big question mark in Snape's true loyalty, I think there is enough room here to allow Snape to redeem himself in the end.
Snape was risking blowing his cover only if either Bellatrix or Narcissa gave Voldemort Emmeline's location. Narcissa is not a field agent so I doubt she could have tracked down Emmeline. Since Bellatrix is about as close to Voldemort as anyone can get, I doubt she would be used to track down a lower order member like Emmeline.
Now I can see where Dumbledore or Emmeline could go along with a plan to use someone as bait. I think Dumbledore realizes that some may have to be sacrificed to win the war. I also think he sacrificed himself at the end of HBP to elevate Snape to Voldemort's side. I think Dumbledore used lower ranking order members to win Snape enough favor to enter back into Voldemort's trust.
I think this all goes back to the Wizard Chess that Rowling started the series out with. Emmeline would have been a pawn and Dumbledore the Queen. Dumbledore did not fear death and I do not think this is an uncommon belief in the older wizards/witches. I think Dumbledore has been moving pieces around and sacrificing some to place Harry (King) and Snape (The knight since your stories paint a noble picture of him) in a position to check-mate Voldemort in the end. I know this is a crude analogy but it fits since chess played such a big roll in book one.
I think either one of these ideas are possible as well as the one we Snape lovers do not want to see happen. While Emmeline's death does create a big question mark in Snape's true loyalty, I think there is enough room here to allow Snape to redeem himself in the end.
i forgot who Emmelive Vance is. Sorry please remind. Don't get me wrong i love Harry Potter alot. But i forget these things easyily. Sorry for bother!
Excellent idea!
I really don't know if Snape is good or bad. I certainly hope he is, but I really do not know. I think one way this could have happened would be if he gave Voldemort information leading to the death of Emmeline Vance without realising it, similar to how he supposedly did with James and Lilly. It is also possible that he was bluffing, but I just don't see him doing that. He is a very good occlumence though, so it is certainly possible. It is also possible that it was planned by the Order of the Phoenix and all along he was supposed to give information about her, and if the plan wasn't for her to die, perhaps something went wrong. I don't know. I am just thinking of possibilities. I also agree that perhaps she isn't really dead, but that has already happened once and I am not sure how likely it would be that it would happen again. Great ideas, though!
I really don't know if Snape is good or bad. I certainly hope he is, but I really do not know. I think one way this could have happened would be if he gave Voldemort information leading to the death of Emmeline Vance without realising it, similar to how he supposedly did with James and Lilly. It is also possible that he was bluffing, but I just don't see him doing that. He is a very good occlumence though, so it is certainly possible. It is also possible that it was planned by the Order of the Phoenix and all along he was supposed to give information about her, and if the plan wasn't for her to die, perhaps something went wrong. I don't know. I am just thinking of possibilities. I also agree that perhaps she isn't really dead, but that has already happened once and I am not sure how likely it would be that it would happen again. Great ideas, though!
I think, as stated above, that the answer to this question beasty does depend on whether or not Snape is good. It is a very difficult question, and my view is not yet decided, for this very compelling evidence. If Severus is good, however, then this question that you have stated demonstrates a very bad problem; here is my theory.
I think that if Snape is good, he knew absolutely nothing about "the plan" to kill Malfoy, essentially, at all. I think that when Narcissa mentioned the plan, he preformed Occlumence to figure out what she was talking about. I mean, we never do hear him reference the plan, do we? He merely agrees with what other people say. I think, from his "mind reading," he got a rough sketch, and with her information, filled in the gaps. I think that, if he is good, he was able to "read" that Narcissa and Bella didn't supply the information, so he took a chance and tried to take the credit to gain their trust.
That's my idea, anyway.
I think that if Snape is good, he knew absolutely nothing about "the plan" to kill Malfoy, essentially, at all. I think that when Narcissa mentioned the plan, he preformed Occlumence to figure out what she was talking about. I mean, we never do hear him reference the plan, do we? He merely agrees with what other people say. I think, from his "mind reading," he got a rough sketch, and with her information, filled in the gaps. I think that, if he is good, he was able to "read" that Narcissa and Bella didn't supply the information, so he took a chance and tried to take the credit to gain their trust.
That's my idea, anyway.
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