The other thread has, yet again, grown to immense proportions and so has been locked and archived, along with the other four threads which can be found via the following links.

Thread 1
Thread 2
Thread 3
Thread 4
Thread 5

I understand that there are an awful lot of posts there to wade through and it's not reasonable to expect people to read through them all, but I would strongly encourage you to at least read through the last few pages of thread 5 to be aware of the current trend in the conversations.

We've had a lot of people presenting arguments one way or the other, but I think we've gotten to the stage now where a lot of things are being repeated and there isn't so much debate going on anymore as a collection of ideas. Perhaps if the Snape supporters and Snape haters were to turn this into more of a debate thread, it might encourage some new thoughts on both sides.

Maybe if we start with some questions to think about and see where we go from there.

• Is there any way that Snape can be guilty and Dumbledore come out of the situation with his reputation intact? In other words, if Snape is guilty, does it necessarily follow that Dumbledore is a bumbling idiot?
• If Snape is innocent, is there any evidence that the whole thing was planned?
• How significant is it that Snape's face appeared in the Foe-Glass in GoF?
• Do you believe that Snape knew exactly what Malfoy had been asked to do?
• Do you believe that Dumbledore knew that he was Malfoy's intended target?

These are just to start with - obviously, feel free to introduce any other relevant ideas that might encourage a debate, which I know, plenty of people here love to get their teeth into...

I am not sure about Snapes innocence! When DD and Draco where in the lighting struck tower together. Draco said

What DD knew and did not knew concerning Snape and his Vow is impossible to tell, but if the death was staged\faked, DD must have known about the Vow. The Vow plays an important part in DD's death and whether Snape is guilty or not.

If Snape is guilty, it is clear that Draco is correct and that DD has been fooled by Snape.

A thought came into my head while peeling potatoes and as far as I remember nobody told about this possibility...

The question is: what did DD need Snape for?

We know that DD drank the potion and the last words while drinking it were: "KILL ME!"

And so this happened.

Then I ask what this potion caused as DD said the protection had been well designed and that LV wouldn't want the person who drank the potion to be dead immediately. If it was Regulus Black, the cleverest thing he could do was to make LV, (the letter was addressed for him) plead for death as he was scared of it so much. And then DD was asking harry for Snape and was pleading. For death?

I believe - if we follow the theory- that DD didn't say why he asked Harry for Snape as he was afraid that when Harry knows the true reason, he'll refuse. And he had no time for explanations afterwards because the Death Eaters were around Snape. I believe that nobody knew that the Daeth Eaters could be there.

What do you think about it, I wonder.

to me, it just is common sense that snape would betray dumbledore. otherwise it would be too confusing. it shows that dumbledore is only human, who just like any of us, makes mistakes, and, for harry it makes it harder without dumbledore. jk wants to show that its not going to be easy for harry.

Do you believe that Snape knew exactly what Malfoy had been asked to do?

personally i don't think snape knew exactly. he only joins the fight at hogwarts when he is informed by hermione. even after the necklace and the poisioned drink i don't think he knew that dumbledore was the intended victim. first of all noone knows that the necklace is intended for dumbledore because katie is too ill to say, and secondly only a few people know about the drink all of whom are griffindors or ex griffindors except professor slughorn and dumbledore. i don't think dumbledore would tell snape that the drink was intended for him. snape may have known that it involved finding a way of getting death eaters into hogwarts but only realised that the task was to kill dumbledore aswell right at the end of the fight at the school and then makes the final decision about whose side he is really on. he sees dumbledore in his own eyes as weak and pathetic unable to defend himself and decides that going back to voldemort on a permanent basis will keep him alive longer because his seems to be the stronger of the two sides at the moment especially with dumbledore gone. this is something he has been contemplating for a while especially since the incident with dumbledores hand- this reinforces that dumbledore is only human and that one day he will die. death seems to be something that snape may despise. sorry for going off the point as i was saying i think snape realises on the spot that dumbledore is the intended target.

this seems to answer the question regarding dumbledores knowledge of malfoys intended victim as well as snape being guilty and dumbledore's reputation staying intact. sorry for not answering them separately i think they all overlap to some extent.

This post is from - iamnotharrypotter
Please direct any replies to them

Well, as everyone here discusses about the death of Dumbledore. I have this theory that Dumbledore wanted it him self. Here's why: At that time, He is wandless, he had been surrounded by Death Eaters and, and a student of Hogwarts was there , this of course was Malfoy.

It was Malfoy's job to kill Dumbledore as evidenced by one, the poisoned wine, and also the fact that he lead several Death Eaters in to Hogwart's. It was MALFOY's job to kill him. Though, Dumbledore could not harm Malfoy for he was his student and that he knew that Snape and Malfoy are both bounded by Unbreakable Vow.

He asked Malfoy to change his sides and that his father and mother will be protected. He assured the Malfoy's security. But then Death Eaters came into scene. Dumbledore's mood changed from kindness to angst. He was wandless yet he spoke with strong arguments for his words were always powerfull. He answered the death eaters firm straight.

Yet, his mood changed again when he saw SNAPE, he begged and wanted it. he better wanted it for Snape to do it that let Malfoy kill him. He would not want a student to kill Him, and since Dumbledore knew that they were bound by Unbreakable Vow, anything Malfoy cant do will be done by Snape, and so he did it that way. He let Snape killed him.

Dumbledore's a very great Legilimen's himself, he knew at the very first time if ever he had been lied by Snape or not. And he trusted Snape so much, just a simple fact that HE KNEW what he was doing.

Yes, maybe, he commits mistake. But I guess, DUMBLEDORE TRUSTING SNAPE IS NEVER A MISTAKE.

Two things: Since book 1 one Snape promised to be a complicated guy. Do you think that by simply betraying Dumbledore we see his true colours? Somehow I was hoping for more. That's what makes me think that he must have had some other agenda (in other words - not outright betraying D), which I hope means that he'll have another big role to play in 7.

Secondly, I just remember being absolutely stunned by the fight between D and LV at the end of 5. I can't wait for the movie!! But wasn't that awesome?! Is it a fact that Dumbledore needs a wand to perform magic? He might not use magic against Malfoy in the hope of letting him convert himself, but somehow D seems so powerful that he could even take on Snape without a wand. Obviously then, he had to know about the vow AND for some reason think that Snape would be more valuable to Harry's mission (?). I just can't figure out which is more plausible: that Dumbledore(!) can't do magic without a wand, or that he STILL thinks that Snape could be worth something to Harry (who, I guess, would be the last person ever to trust him). As Fred would say of my contribution: what a waste of parchment!

Very interesting post, HP_Fan

This has been my main problem in believing that Snape is guilty, see...I can't understand how Snape could be guilty and Dumbledore look anything other than a bumbling fool, but you put forward a good argument there.

I've been swings and roundabouts about this for months, but Snapelover's post in the last thread and your post there are bringing me back around to the Snape is guilty camp again.

I don't want to believe that at all, but I'm beginning to think that I'm going to get labelled "delusional" again if I don't start getting over this little Snape is good obsession I have I keep desperately looking for proof of his innocence, but the truth of the matter is that most of the evidence so far is very vague and could place him in either camp really, depending on your point of view.

I remember that interview and I remember her saying that and I know that, at the time, I saw that as evidence that Dumbledore had made an emotional mistake in trusting Snape, but I didn't want to believe that because it did substantially weaken him as a character in my eyes and I was sorely disappointed in that. Of course I understand mistakes, but this was a pretty big one as mistakes go. A potentially lethal one not just for him, but for his pupils, his staff, the Order and, of course, Harry. Dumbledore didn't just trust him - he allowed him access to the most precious inner sanctum and I couldn't believe that someone so intelligent could do something like that. The only type of emotional attachment that could be that strong, to my mind, is that between a husband and wife or parent and child...something extremely strong that leads you to blindness when it comes to regarding the faults of those you love. I don't see how Dumbledore could have shared that type of closeness with Snape. He saw through Voldemort from the first moment he met him - why couldn't he see through Snape?

I do think that Dumbledore may have had doubts about the intended target though, but I'm also fairly sure that he would have figured it out eventually. I'm sure someone of his intelligence would be foolish to think that he could get away with these horcrux expeditions of his and Voldemort, who supposedly has spies everywhere, wouldn't get to hear a word of it. Particularly if Snape really was on his side - Dumbledore went to Snape when he was hurt by that curse - Snape would have realised the type of curse it was - surely he would have told Voldemort something so important?

If he did, why didn't Voldemort act more strongly against it? If he didn't, why didn't he? Was it because he didn't know? Well, he must have - Dumbledore confided in him. He appeared to know what he was talking about both at Spinners End and with Draco. So what's going on here? Does Voldemort know that Dumbledore and Harry were on to him or not?

I think these things are fairly important in trying to figure out what's going on because if this were purely an emotional argument, based on gut instinct, I would say he's innocent, but the evidence does seem to point to the contrary. And I looked too deeply into these things before and got stung, so maybe things really are as simple as they appear to be on the surface.

Oh man, I'm so confused...

I don't know... the more I read, the more I'm convinced that he's innocent, not vice versa. I believe that Rowling turned many of the characters in HBP upside down and so was in Snape's case: everybody thinks that he was turned upside down too as a traitor but remember that everyone of the people who were changed features of character a bit (Harry, Ginny, Ron, Hermione etc.) still fight for the right case. I think Rowling made an evil and fake twist in HBP.

The chapter "Spinner's End" doesn't convince me that Snape was the Death Eater. He had to be convincing to make LV and the Death eaters believe him, but in fact I see some inaccuracies in this chapter, and so I see them in "The Flight of the Prince", so I don't care about Rowling's confusing quotes .

What do you guys make of the fact that DD gave Snape the DADA-job?

- Both Snape and DD knows that the job is cursed, even though Snape has been after it for long.
- Why would Snape want the job when it was cursed?
- Why did DD give Snape the job this year?
- They must have had a discussion about the subject before DD made the desicion, what would they talk about?
- Would DD have given Snape the job to see if he could last a year, or did he realise that he would not last in the beginning, if so, how could he?
- What exactly is the curse? Quirrell died, Lupin resigned, Lockhart lost his memory, Mad-Eye was fake and...I forgot the last one, but still, seeing as none of those who had the job could be able to take it on the following year, DD must have had a reason for giving it to Snape this year.

Yeah! Louise jumped in! Now, I am faced with the same horrible and painful dilema of my Snape loyalties. I so want him to be innocent that I fear that I am being blind to the obvious.

That being said, can we now understand how Dumbledore made the same mistake?

As for the Foe Glass, I was under the impression (because Moody aka. Crouch said so) that it shows enemies or dark wizards nearby.

I am currently reading OotP. (Trying to read it without the rose colored glasses on. ) When Harry and the group first explored the RoR there is a Foe Glass in there. It says, "There were dark shapes moving around in it, but they were not clearly defined." Not word for word there, but you get it, don't you? Dark shapes....DARK Shapes....Severus always wears black. That would come across as a DARK SHAPE...wouldn't it? I know, I know, sort of reaching there, but I felt it is important to bring up all these subtle hints.

Besides my favorite line that addresses (in my humble opinion) the reason Snape killed Dumbledore. Put very simply by Phineas Nigellus:

Maybe he cared about saving his neck, maybe he didn't.

After rereading of "The Spinner's End" chapter (not the entire one, though) I have something to say in this case:
1. When Snape explains why DD didn't give him the Defense Against The Dark Arts job:
"he wouldn't give me the DADA job, you know. Seemed to think it might, ah, bring about a relapse... tempt me into old ways".
Guys, it's a big lie! later in the story we know that DD knew that the job was cursed. It's not that DD was worried about the tempting and so on, he just didn't want to give Snape the job as he wanted to have him at Hogwarts... Of course we may assume that what Snape said is true. But why then DD would be so stubborn in repeating: "I trust professor Snape?"
2. Snape also says "My orders were to stay behind. perhaps you disagree with the Dark Lord, perhaps you think that DD would not have noticed if I had joined forces with the Death Eaters to fight the Order of the Phoenix?'
I understand it this way that Snape knows that DD knows he's a spy for the Order, and he uses this clue which is good for Bellatrix and the Death Eaters. This clue doesn't work in opposite direction as DD knows he's part Death Eater! He wouldn't be surprised seeing him fight with the Death Eaters, he'd thought that he had to pretend.

[/QUOTE]Dumbledore told Harry that he had a strong suspicion that Voldemort could not detect when a horcrux was destroyed. [QUOTE]

If that is the case then how did Voldemort find out about Regulus?
Everyone says that is why he was killed. That it had to be him who stole the horocrux and he was killed for it. Why would Voldemort track him down if he didn't know someone took the locket. I think Voldemort does know when someone has gone to the cave. And I think it was a trap set for Dlumbledore.

I've always felt suspicious when DD was saying that LV doesn't feel when the Horcrux is destroyed. I simply don't think that LV wouldn't ensure him in this- important and crucial for him -case.

If he felt that the Marvolo's ring was destroyed then it makes sense why he wanted DD to be killed by someone he shouldn't suspect- Malfoy! LV didn't appreciate Narcissa and Snape! Snape could know about what he swore using Legilimency, and with Draco's attempts people could guess whom he wanted to kill (it was easy to guess after the poisoned mead for DD). It could be a trap for DD indeed, to weaken him, maybe even kill him by drinking the potion.

Also:
If DD told Snape to tell LV the first part of the prophecy and LV made attempt to kill Harry and he didn't manage, DD has his iron clad to trust Snape, as Snape could have lead LV to his downfall. Trelawney doesn't go out of the trance while saying a prophecy!

I believe that it was like this and DD accidentally caused the death of James and Lily as LV chose to kill James and wanted to spare Lily (why? :conf: ) and what he saw in the cave was very similar to what Harry heard when the dementors were attacking him. It was a huge remorse-this what happened in the cave. It makes sense- if the potion was to cause somebody's terror or remorse, it would be a great idea of R. A. B.

This is the first time I've posted and I admit I haven't read all the threads, BUT I would like to start off by saying that Snape is not guilty of "killing" DD as in "forever gone." Some strange things I have run across:

WHY in the chase scene from the castle to the gates does Snape use Harry's first name? Yes, reread it. It's there. Snape yells HARRY, NO! Not "Potter" as he has called him for 6 years previous to that incident. This suggests a familiar, not an opponent. Rowling hides word clues everywhere and I think this is one othe biggest in favor of Snape. He tries to get Harry to stop chasing him and I think Rowling purposefully chooses Snape to use his first name out of exasperation that Harry will not give up the chase and thus lets us see something hidden beneath the exterior.

In Goblet...Mad Eye Moody says DD wants the students to SEE what the Killing Curse does. Why? Everyone knows that Avada Kedavra kills. But rereading EVERY instance of the use, I see people (and the spider) just dropping dead where they are (untouched). Reread the Snape DD scene and notice he is literally BLOWN off the tower! What gives? It can't be because he is one of the most powerful wizards, because at the time he was desparate and weak...saving Harry being the utmost importance. He should of just dropped dead where he stood.

Interstingly enough....It is Snape who teaches Harry in book 1 that he can "put a stopper in death". And if I'm not mistaken one of the potions first mentioned in HBP is The Draught of Living Death. Hmmm? Could that be what was in the bowl of the first horcrux? Could all of that been part of the whole plot by Snape and DD...to teach Harry the dangers that may await him in searching for the horcruxes while setting up events for later, although that would mean that DD and Snape would have to have figured out Draco's plot by then. Remember Harry is not very good at Occlumency so he must believe everything that happens unquestionably if this is truly just a plot to hide DD for now. Any doubt that DD is not dead could work against him in a meeting with Voldemort or Snape(if he really is still riding the fence or just plain bad) at a later date.

Another issue is HOW or WHEN Snape would have been alerted to Draco's plot. In the scene where Snape figures out that Draco has been taught occlumency, how is it he knew that? If Draco excelled at it, Snape would not have known he was using it right? So was there a crack in Draco's Occlumency, Surely a wizard of Draco's age couldn't master over a summer what Harry (unsuccessfully attempted) over almost a whole school term being taught by someone of Snape's talent (only second to Voldemort if we read correclty). But this is the weakest of my arguments due to the obvious (strangely enough) dislike of Snape by Draco in the days leading up to the tower scene.

Another interesting tidbit:
There are too many references to PHOENIX throught the books for there to be any doubt that (in some form) DD will be back. That is, phoenixes (sp?) are reborn anew as babies.

I don't know... am i blind or what because I can't see where Snape called Potter by his name "Harry"... i'm almost blind of staring at the computer screen but I can't see "Harry, no!' anywhere..

Hiya! Nice points all of you so far. However, I am going to trudge along and point out something else I read that umped out at me.

OotP, Chapter "Occlumency" harry and Snape are talking and Snape is explaining things to Harry. I read it and after I did I went..."whoa...there it is...another subtle hint."

Harry just used Voldemort's name and Snape barks at him to never use it. The he asks how they knew that Voldemort became awae of harry seeing through Voldemort's snake.

bubotuber_pus: Sorry you're right, I reread the chapter when I got home...I was confusing two lines, but:

I also stick to the theory of familiar versus enemy
He says...No, Potter! as Harry is attempting another spell. Obviously Snape is using Harry's lack of skill in occlumency against him....OR IS HE? Why in that scene does Snape say NO instead of just stupefying Harry or using petrificus totalus... YES, YES he says to someone else that arry is for LV, but why not stop Harry from pursuing him at all? Why does he simply deflect any spell Harry tries to use? Snape does not seem want to hurt Harry (although he does at one point for a tiny bit) ...or he could have Crucio'd him for an extended time, while he was still escaping. There are so many spells Snape could have used to stop Harry but didnt. There is something there...whether Snape is playing double-double agent or whether he still owes Harry something. He just said NO! Nothing but No. Think about it. Snape, who has just (seemingly) killed DD, Harry's biggest/most powerful ally, is running for his life, with Harry throwing unforgivables at him(whom Snape can tell is out to hurt him, legilimens remember) doesnt' stop Harry from pursuing him and stops someone else from hurting him....That is just too bizarre an incident to overlook.

Hermione, Ron, and Harry were just sneaking out for the night and used a Pertificus Totalus on Neville to keep him from following/getting in the way. And here's the betrayer Snape, evil and dark, Harry and James Potter Hater, and all he does is deflect a few spells and yell NO, Potter when Harry tries to use the same spell that James used to humiliate Snape (Levicorpus). Don't see it that way? Why does he even bother to taunt Harry about not keeping his mind closed? He could have chosen his words more carefully... It almost seems like parting advice "Blocked again and again and again until you learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed, Potter!"

I have reread the chapter from both points of view...Which one holds more weight after you reread it from my point of view?

@Snapelover: the scene you write about was after when Harry felt as if he was a snake and DD was talking about it to him. "I saw it all from the snake's point of view", harry said and DD was somehow angry. No wonder. It wasn't hard to guess that Harry can read LV's mind and that LV penetrates his mind to use him to take the prophecy. Did LV realize that Harry was in his thoughts? he could realize if Weasley was at St Mungo's afterwards. I just don't think that LV couldn't realize the connection... but you can be right, of course.

ok i happened to read the discussions........and mostly i feel that snape is acting on the orders of DD. as per the unbreakable vow snape helpted draco to finish the work draco undertook.

but i happened to re-read order of the phoenix to know more about occlumency. there snape has stated telling harry that "The mind is a complex and many-layered thing, Potter - or at least, most minds are.'
He smirked. 'It is true, however, that those who have mastered Legilimency are able, under
certain conditions, to delve into the minds of their victims and to interpret their findings
correctly. The Dark Lord, for instance, almost always knows when somebody is lying to him.
Only those skilled at Occlumency are able to shut down those feelings and memories that
contradict the lie, and so can utter falsehoods in his presence without detection.'"
now in HBP lupin is stated saying that snape was a very accomplished occlumence and this would hv helped snape to gain trust from dark lord and instead i feel he's the spy on DD'S orders.
although its pretty doubtful but may b snape loves dark arts so much that he must b as accomplished as LV.

I now have the ultimate proof of Rogue goodness

In the book, i will not put the exact term in english because i have the book in French but i'll try to do my best.

When Harry and Dumbledore are coming back to Hogwarts with Rosmerta's broom, Harry think about a lil something really important.

Did Ron, Hermione and Ginny luck of Felix Felicis had gone?

That's an important line because later in the book, after the death of Dumbledore, Hermione say to Harry

We went to see Flitwick, we let Snape go away!

So if Felix Felicis was still working, the potion was telling them to go let Snape go.

What do you think about that?

Dumbledore knew the plan
Rogue kill Dumbledore from his order

Is there any way that Snape can be guilty and Dumbledore come out of the situation with his reputation intact? In other words, if Snape is guilty, does it necessarily follow that Dumbledore is a bumbling idiot?


I think a main idea that people are ignoring here is Snape is a Slitheren. Slitheirn’s are known to be ambitious, cunning and Sly. The sorting hat said,” Or perhaps in Slytherin
You'll make your real friends,
Those cunning folks use any means
To achieve their ends. “

The main idea we should take from here is the last two lines. Those lines infer that the Slitheren mentality is to put themselves and what they want first before anything else. I think that in the beginning of the book Snape knows or at lest guesses that Draco is being asked to kill either Harry or Dumbledore. He also knows if he refuses to swear the unbreakable oath that Bellatrix Lestrange will surely kill him or at lest expose him to Voldemort which would leave him as good as dead. In this moment in time Snape finds him self at a crossroads. I believe as Draco’s head of house he feels responsible for the boy and he also highly values his own life. Snape is fighter, just look at his past with Siruis and James. So I think Snape chose to save his own life thinking that he would be able to find a way out of killing either Harry or Dumbledore before the event takes place.

Draco unfortunately refuses to give Snape a good idea to the means he is using to achieve his ends in killing Dumbledore which is why Harry hears them arguing.

At the end of the book when Snape is again faced with the choice of killing Dumbledore or saving his own life I think he chose to save his own life. Notice the side he has chosen seems to be getting the upper hand in the ongoing war so he is choosing the winning side. He is slyly picking the side he thinks will give him the most advantage or at lest let him retain his life the longest.
Dumbledore on the other hand I doubt was ever a Slytherin. He lacks the same world view and philosophy as the Slitherin’s do. By world view I mean mentality. Dumbledore puts others before himself and puts great trust in people. I don’t think it’s a question as to weather he is a bumbling idiot or not, I think its more of a matter that because Snape’s and Dumbledores worldview and philosophy are so different that Dumbledore can not understand that Snape’ s world view and philosophy are complelty different from his own.. Dumbledore would gladly put his life on the line for the greater good of all and he feels that other’s especially those others who are close to him would gladly do the same. Snape on the other hand sees his life as being more worthwhile than the fate of everyone else. So Snape chooses himself and Dumbledore dies.
Id rather Snape was really doing it on Dumbledore’s orders but I just don’t see that as real possibility at this time.

Well see.

For me desiding whether Snape is good or not is a mind boggler! Al of the points everone has come up with are as equally logical and believable. But the one question no one has asked is Why didnt the fake Moody appear in the Foe Glass??? After all he was really a DE and so if it shows dark wizards he would have poped up as well as Snape. Maybe it was a fake? I dont know but it just doesnt make sence!

First off, I wanna say that I think everyone, whether for or against Snape, are making fantastic arguments; however, I strongly believe that Snape is working for Dumbledore and the Order.

Anyway, HP number one Fan...I thought that the Foe Glass just shows the enemies of whoever owns it, and at the time, fake Moody owned it. That is one reason why I consider Snape innocent...Snape, McGonagall, and Dumbledore were in the Foe Glass because they were enemies of the one who owned it (fake Moody). If Harry owned the Foe Glass, then fake Moody's face would've appeared in it. I may be wrong, but that's what I think.

Unfortunately, the fake Moody said that he hated the Death Eaters on the loose...


I'm for your opinion, Quality Quidditch Supplies. I also think that DD's iron clad was something what must have been kept in a secret and his talking about that he wouldn't give Snape the DADA job was a small talk for use of everybody. I suppose that in fact this clad couldn't have been revealed for everybody. Why? I believe that DD invented the DADA story for LV and the magic people and in fact he was trying to hide the real reason.

Why DD trusted Snape? I believe that Snape had proven he's believable. In fact, I think that the iron clad may have been that DD asked Snape to tell LV only half of the prophecy, which was meant to lead to LV's downfall, but they had no idea about the Horcruxes. I can't say if Snape heard the whole prophecy or not and if DD lied to Harry again (he often doesn't tell Harry the whole truth). Actually, how DD would be able to tell everyone, even Harry, the true iron clad if it was connected to LV and Snape's lies? LV could read Harry's / whoever minds.

My conspiracy theory? many people after reading HBP were saying that the Order seems so weak in this book. A weak Order, no DD, Snape on LV's side= a false sense of security for the Death Eaters. We saw that deaths can be faked. I've searched for more about Vance, but unfortunately as we can assume that Madam Bones's death could be faked, there's not much information about Vance and Snape said that he helped in killing her. Jo does it on purpose to keep us suspicious which means she in fact knew which way our conspiracy theories will go

About the thought that Snape is evil and would rather save himself, because he was a Slytherin at school, is unlikely. I was thinking about who has betrayed their house's tradition. (Gryffindor, bravery, Ravenclaw, cleverness etc.)

Then it hit me, Wormtail! Wormtail was a Gryffindor, they are supposedley brave, and would sacrifice themself for their friends. But no he betrays his friends to save his own neck. (A trait of Slytherin) Well Snape could have done the same but in reverse, what do you think?

Ok, this is in response to what people are saying about the foeglass and how Snape must be evil because he appeared in it and it's supposed to show enemies/dark wizards nearby. The thing is, It was the Imposter Moody who was using it and he said that there's nothing he hates more than a death eater that walked free so regardless of if Snape is innocent or guilty, he is still an enemy to imposter Moody because he's a death eater walked free! I don't think that it can be used therefore to say that Snape is evil.

Snape is a good guy, but by killing Dumbledore he obviously did something wrong as seemed by the people, but it was as his last order by Dumbledore.
What Im saying is Snape killed Dumbledore because he was ordered to by Dumbledore.

Yes this sounds very weird but it is. Througout the book Dumbledore thought Harry all he needed to know, of course through really hard guesswork, he thought him how Voldemort is, how he acts, what he needs to survive, and how to kill Voldemort. The other only thing he could have done for Harry was protect him in Hogwarts and help him find the Horcruxes. But the real good person to do that is Snape, and Snape could do it because he is alined to be more important to Voldemort now that he killed Dumbledore. By killing Dumbledore, as Dumbledore ordered, he was ensuring Draco's life to be safe, and Snape's (as Snape made the Unbreakable Vow, by Dumbledore's orders... somehow). The Death Eaters had come to the tower so Dumbledore could no longer help Draco, as he says "It is not your mercy that matters now, but mine". Snape killed Dumbledore, but just so he could stay on Voldemort's side, so he could help Harry, I believe to protect him a little and to help him kill the second to hardest Horcrux to destroy, Nagini.

In the book, Hagrid mentioned to Harry and Hermione that Dumbledore and Snape argued, saying that Snape said Dumbledore took to much for granted. This was it. Dumbledore had told him he would have to kil him, Dumbledore is very wise and knew this was the right thing to do. That he would have to kill him so Harry could kill Voldemort, Snape said he took to much for granted by saying that Harry would be able to kill Voldemort if Dumbledore died, that he was assuring too much and would be bad if he was wrong because he would be dead. And as we know, normal people make mistakes and its bad, but when Dumbledore makes them its incredebly larger.

Dumbledore is not a fool for trusting Snape, in all the books he mentions he trustes Severus Snape Completely. In the sixth book Dumbledore said he didnt trust Voldemort when he was a kid and suspected him of a lot of things, his powers, his doings, and his way of being. He also said he didnt hate nor disliked Voldemort just that he was not trustworthy, and he was right, but he did trust Snape completely no matter what he did. So his trust in Snape is well founded.

At the end when Snape is fleeing he is smirking, and acting as though he didnt care he killed Dumbledore. But that was his orders, he couldnt be all sad in front of Death Eaters, but he was teaching Harry. Because those are the weapons he most needs besides love. To be able to keep his mind closed, meaning controling Occlumency. If he could do that he would be able to perform silent spells which is a great advantage. If you read the books you can see Voldemort and the Death Eaters perform the Killing Curse in their mind. Snape obviously could not teach Harry no more so he did it in this last seconds. That is why Snape became Defense Against the Darks Arts teacher. Harry needed someone with great experience on the good and dark side to teach him this kind of subject.

All this comes to the conclusion that at the end, Dumbledore did NOT plead to Snape so he wouldnt kill him, he pleaded to him so he would kill him. Dumbledore trusted him 100% he wouldnt plead to him so he wouldnt kill him, he knew Snape would never do anything bad to him, ever. The last thing everyone should remember when asking yourself if Snape did kill Dumbledore out of an order by Voldemort is this..... Dumbledore trusted Snape completely and that should be enough for us.

[Why, exactly, is that? Voldie didn't appear to hesitate for a second in killing James, so why would he bother to let Lily live? Why would a creature that heartless, that full of supreme evil bother to offer an enemy, who has challenged and escaped him Three times, a chance to stay alive when it would be just as easy to toss an AK at her and get on with the rest of his evil, heartless life?]

This post make me think about a lil something. When Dumbledore drink the potion he say to have pity and everything like that but If he was like entering in Snape soul and pleading Voldemort not to kill Lily and after he's pleading Dumbledore about the regret he has.

This would make me think that this is one good reason why Dumbledore trusts Snape. Because Voldemort killed Lily. And when Dumbledore drink the potion he says: I would do anything....

Maybe, at this moment or later (later could be 16 years after...) he asks him to kill him, when the time will come up, when Harry will have to find the Horcruxes...

Another reason's that make me think about Snape goodness is because of what I already said, the Felix Felicis. Some of you may think that the potion had already lose his power when Dumbledore died, but it did not.
When Snape kill Dumbledore, he starts running and in the castle Harry saw Ginny fighting with the Death Eaters, but all the spells where missing her. She says after that the potion make all the spell to got miss. So, Felix Felicis was still in action when Snape did go kill Dumbledore. So Hermione did what she think was good, let Snape go kill Dumbledore.

Rogueisgood that is a very good point about the Felix, the Felix was working at the time which makes everything that happened, happen how it was best. So it does prove that Dumbledore did tell Snape to kill him as an order, making it happen was the best thing then. Of course Dumbledore's death is still something complex that we will probably understand more later.

Don't know if this has been mentioned, but I dont feel like reading all of the posts so, I'm sorry if it has been posted already.

I believe Snape betrayed Draco and Dumbledore or just Draco. Draco was ordered to kill Dumbledore but found that he could not. Snape made the Unforgivable Vow and was forced to kill Dumbledore when Draco couldn't. This is where he betrays Draco and Dumbledore, but not for the obvious resons. I believe Draco was betrayed because he was given the order to kill dumbledore and couldn't so he may be killed by Voldemort for being a coward or disobeying him. I also believe that he betrayed Dumbledore because Dumbledore wants Draco to kill him because he believes that Draco will be killed by Voldemort if Draco does not kill Dumbledore himself. Dumbledore would rather die than see one of his students killed by Voldemort. Snape knew that something along these lines was running through Dumbledore's head and hated to cause something that Dumbledore was afraid may happen.

Well, i'm not sure that he really betrayed Dumbledore
Dumbledore didn't want Drago to kill him because he knew Malfoy was on the good side and he ordered Snape to kill him and not let Malfoy do it. But that's the way Snape is betraying Drago, to bring him with him. Because he know Voldemort will kim him.

Rogueisgood, I have really been looking into your point about the Felix Felices, and I must say, it is flawless. Unless JKR forgot this minor detail, it seems obvious that Snape is good. Why, if Hermione was under the influence of Felix Felices, would she have let Snape walk right past her? We know from Harry's experience that the potion gives you little hints inside your mind as to what to do next, so if Snape going to enter the battle that night was a bad thing, then Hermione would have known to stop him somehow. (Unless she is evil... moohahahahaha)

Is there any way that Snape can be guilty and Dumbledore come out of the situation with his reputation intact? In other words, if Snape is guilty, does it necessarily follow that Dumbledore is a bumbling idiot?
No, DD isn't an idiot, of course. His all life proved he was great, even if he made 1 mistake, he's still a great wizard.

If Snape is innocent, is there any evidence that the whole thing was planned?
I've been writing about it in many threads but... first of all, DD's left a kind of testament to Dursleys, even saying that they can meet again, he let Snape teach DADA knowing the job was cursed, he argued with snape in the forest and I can't imagine that it was a quarell about "I'm-sorry-I'm-going-to-the-Death-Eaters-camp" Snape. I believe it was a similar situation to this which Harry had in the cave. And Felix Felicis was still working after Snape killed DD, because Ginny was fighting the Death eater successfully, also Snape behaved in non-Snapeish way after the AK curse, showing no pride he killed DD (but maybe he did it for his own purposes).

How significant is it that Snape's face appeared in the Foe-Glass in GoF?
In my opinion it's not significant, as fake Moody said that he hated the Death Eaters on the loose.

Do you believe that Snape knew exactly what Malfoy had been asked to do?
I think that he knew it, at least before the killing of DD.

Do you believe that Dumbledore knew that he was Malfoy's intended target?
Yes, because of the mead- Slughorn said it was for DD.

I would be interested to know from Snape defenders, by what process do you decide which parts of the text—most notably portions of Snape’s dialogue in Spinner’s End—to dismiss out-of-hand as false? It isn’t reasonable to expect someone to believe that some statements made by Snape are true while others are false. In that case, someone else can say, for example, that Snape tampered with the memory in the pensieve that Harry saw in Snape’s Worst Memory in OotP to show Sirius & James in a bad light. How can you dispute that? I can say that I believe it to be true and there is no refutation because it does not exist in the text. That does not make it a valid argument to put forward as support for an idea, because we know there is no canon proof to support that idea.

It’s the same situation when someone contends that Snape is lying to the Black sisters in Spinner’s End. I have not read anything in the text of HBP that would lead me to conclude that Snape lied to them. It would be a completely different matter if someone can post canon evidence to support the idea that he lied to Narcissa & Bellatrix at Spinner’s End.

Speaking for myself, I tend to accept everything written as true until I read the proof in the text that it is false. I am referring specifically to Snape telling the Black sisters that he knew what Draco’s mission was. As I didn’t read anything in the book later that proved his words false, I tend to think they are true. If in the last book I read something that proves it false, then I will believe it is false. As it stands, this is a fact stated by Snape and no amount of wishful thinking on my part will change it.

The red herrings in the books seem to support a pattern (for lack of a better word) of being proven as such at the end. As an example:

1. Snape was not the bad guy in SS, it was QuirrelMort proven at the end of that book.
2. Draco was not the bad guy in CoS, it was DiaryTom proven at the end of that book.
3. Sirius was not the bad guy in PoA, Wormtail was proven at the end of that book.
4. Moody was not the spy in GoF, Barty Jr. was proven at the end of that book.
5. Voldemort was not seeking a weapon in OotP, he was seeking knowledge of a prophecy proven at the end of that book.

I think the majority can agree to these. All were integral to the plot of each respective book. The red herrings of the plot are dealt with in each book. If that is correct, I think the pattern in HBP should read as follows:

Draco did not fulfill Voldemort’s mission in HBP, Snape did proven at the end of the book.

This type of deduction is what I would deem as support without confirmation for my theory of Evil!Snape. I have no proof of the truth or falsity of this pattern for the books, only suspicions and beliefs. Vastly different are the deductions I can make with the text, right? What is the point here, you might ask. Just this: The canon support for the deductions I’ve made using the text are much stronger evidence than the supposition about the red herrings. Those are refutations that depend on the canon in the book that back up the argument that Snape betrayed Dumbledore. Can Snape supporters find the same kind of evidence in the canon to make deductions that refute those?

Oh, such a long post Unfortunately I don't have much time to answer it, but I'll manage to write quickly how I read "The Spinner's End".

When you read it this way that Snape's LV's spy and explains the events to bellatrix, almost everything suits 9except his judgement about Harry as he knows that he's a parseltongue and can conjure a corporeal Partonus), and except this part about DD's injury maybe because it seems like Snape suggested that DD got this injury in the battle with LV or something like that (in the Ministry), but:

when you read it thinking about Snape being DD's helper, you see that what he says can be easily explained another way (these aren't strong points, it can work both ways), and I always have a laugh that Snape sounds like a politician (you know, empty words, much talking). I can't only explain what happened to Vance and why he claims he helped in killing her.

I think we've been running out of new arguments over whom Snape's betrayal lays on. It all has been said!! DD or LV? Who knows?? Only JKR does. But of course it's ok for anyone to express their opinion.
Only thing is: will you discredit JKR if she doesn't share the same opinion? I mean, if Snape turned out to be the good guy, would those who'd bet their bottom dollar on his being a filthy slimy git say she lost her grip? Or if they could satisfy their thirst for justice at Snape being (suitably) tortured to death in the 7th book for his despicable betrayal, would former Snape's admirers think JKR went down.
I wouldn’t, ever! Cos JKR is so brilliant that we can stand whatever will happen, can't we? (Should I speak for myself? ) I mean, there are too many evidences on both sides, depending on the interpretation certainly, even though it's JKR's final word what really matters.

[/QUOTE]
The red herrings in the books seem to support a pattern (for lack of a better word) of being proven as such at the end. As an example:

1. Snape was not the bad guy in SS, it was QuirrelMort proven at the end of that book.
2. Draco was not the bad guy in CoS, it was DiaryTom proven at the end of that book.
3. Sirius was not the bad guy in PoA, Wormtail was proven at the end of that book.
4. Moody was not the spy in GoF, Barty Jr. was proven at the end of that book.
5. Voldemort was not seeking a weapon in OotP, he was seeking knowledge of a prophecy proven at the end of that book.

I think the majority can agree to these. All were integral to the plot of each respective book. The red herrings of the plot are dealt with in each book. If that is correct, I think the pattern in HBP should read as follows:

Draco did not fulfill Voldemort’s mission in HBP, Snape did proven at the end of the book.
[QUOTE]

That was a very interesting comment.. And I agree with u. The previous 5th books support a pattern. But... I don't think as much of the 6th. What if it has come to change that pattern? It is possible. After I finished reading HBP I realised that it differed a lot from the other books. It’s there where Harry no longer gets all the attention. We witness a new character arising and turning out to be an incognito one. It’s not all about how Harry is going to kill LV anymore. Now he’s got Snape to contend with. And we can’t forget the horcruxes. Who’d ever imagine one Voldemort to kill was not enough? I must admit, HBP came as a delightful turnaround. As you can see, it all revolves round interpretation.
However, I really (wanna) think Snape's good. Particularly, he's my fave (after Harry of course) and his being on the good side makes perfectly sense. Nevertheless, if he's evil, I'm totally agreeing with JKR cos this wouldn't come as surprise. In any case the plot would keep "fitting together like a wondrous jigsaw" (GoF back cover).
I'm sure JK will be able to explain successfully all the reasons leading up to Snape's actual allegiance. Besides, with all she can extract from these posts I think she won’t have to spend much more than ten seconds. All she’ll need to have in mind is www.veritaserum.com/forums

hı! my name is yamur.I'm Turkish.I'm snape fan.I think snape is good.snape is dumbledore's orders.
exp. snape didn't kill harry in the end
everything is plan.everything is dumbledore's plan
see you soon!

Here is the thing, I think that it has been made clear, from the beginning, snape is bad.

Harry unlike dumbledore, can see the bad in people, he has a special gift, he senses when danger is near, remember when harry first came to hogwarts, when he looked at snape, his scare hurt.

Snape did switch sides till he found out that voldemort was back, and because he is the only legilemense that can shut voldemort out of his mind, voldemort could not tell if he was lying.

Snape, hid pettigrew, and didn't keep a good enough eye on his slytherins throughout his years, and didn't control malfoy. Snape did the unbreakable vow. If any good person was in in position, they would have not done this. Plus, we know a great deal about the killing curse, remember moody? He told us about deaths, truth is malfoy could not have killed dumbledore, even if he had tried. Snape, also could have wounded him, and put DD close to death, had he wanted to.

I could go on for pages, but I will stop now.

Has anyone thought that there could be more to the prophecy than what Dumbledore (and JK) has told Harry so far? That he and Snape knew the "whole" prophecy. That it was foretold that Dumbledore "could", "should" die. (I say "should" because as DD has said, you choose to make the prophecy so) "The choices we make, make us who we are".

Snape made a choice. He had to kill DD because of the unbreakable vow. or Dumbledore was already dying from destroying the previous horcrux. (Didn't DD say somthing to the effect "because of Prof. Snapes quick action his hand was saved) It could be that Snape and Dumbledore were arguing because DD was telling Snape that he was close to finding the thrid horcrux. Snape telling DD that he helped save his life the last time he went to destroy the ring horcrux. ( Snape using a potion or whatever to stop the curse that blacked DD's hand from spreading to the rest of his body) Arguing that DD took it for "granted" that Snape could cure a curse and he might not be able to do it again. (As Hermonie said" there are old curses that cannot be cured")

This last potion that DD drank "was no health drink". And DD was weakened from the previous horcrux and this one that he was dying anyway. I think DD told Snape that should it come down to it, he had to go through with the unbreakable vow thus saving Malfoy, and his cover. I think DD was reminding Snape of their plan when he said "Severus please". Reminding Snape of the thing that he wanted Snape to do, (kill him) although Snape was against it. That is why Snape had this revolting look on his face. Not hate for DD but hate for the position that he put himself in as a double agent.

I do think that DD will become more powerful now that he is dead. He had to get out of the way so Harry can battle LV with Snapes help.

That's a very good idea, Triwizard! I mean what you said about Snape who said that maybe DD took too much for granted... maybe DD told him that he was going to destroy the next Horcrux and Snape didn't want him to die and was afraid he couldn't cure it...

I think that Snape could've known the whole prophecy. Why? because R. A. B. wrote that he hoped that when LV met his match, he'd be mortal once more. The word "match" is what makes me think R. A. B. knew the prophecy. Maybe Snape told him. There wasn't told in the first part that the match 'he'll have powers LV knows not"...