i belive that snape is betraying voldemort.
i think its all part of a plan that he and dumbledore had.
dumbledore trusts snape and even though dumbledore is human and can make mistakes i trust dumbledores judgement.
snape was put in a spot where he either killed dumbledore and make voldy truly believe that snape was on his side, or he could not kill dumbledore and then the whole story collapses.
i think that dumbledore knew there was a chance that snape might hav had to kill him. he was prepared to die. but he just didnt want to die right then and there.
i think that snape is going to play an important role later on and because of him harry is able to kill voldemort.
even though the prophecy states that either harry kills voldy or voldy kills harry, voldy is definetly going to kill harry unless harry has a lot of help.
thats why i think snape is really betraying voldy

The question of Snape's loyalty is an extremely interesting subject... i can just imagine JKR sitting in her study laughing her head off while we ponder this...

I think the answer is simple. as we see in the books, there is no question among the survivors that snape is truly working for voldemort. harry wants to kill him. and it is our natural instinct to believe him. but when has snape ever been what he seemed? i believe that snape is truly wanting to be a decent person. someone who is brave, loyal, and just. in short, someone with the qualities he has never been able to hold. Snape hates harry, his parents, and dumbledore (to an extent). but not for the reaseons harry believes. snape hates them because they all have something that he doesn't have. (remember snape's bitterness at the fact james saved his life)

what i'm getting to is that snape wants to be good, but it never works for him, because his own cunning and greed gets in the way. he is working for dumbledore, and there is a reason why he killed him.

the reason is not because snape hates dumbledore, or because dumbledore could not stand the pain of the potion (as some people have thought). it is because of dumbledore's devotion to the students intrusted to him. his topmost priority is the saftey and wellbeing of his students.(remember his protection of marietta on Ootp). dumbledore was fearing for the life of draco malfoy.

if you remember back to the section in the HBP where harry learns of the row dumbledore had with snape, you would remeber that snape had a job to do, and he wanted to back out of it. he said that dumbledore was taking him for granted. i believe that snape was referring to his task of finishing draco's job if draco failed, and refused to turn to the good side. dumbledore meant for snape to kill him, because if he did not, snape would have died(because of the bond) and malfoy would have been killed by voldemort along with his family. i think dumbledore would much rather die than let draco, his family, and snape be killed. this way, snape will still be able to thwart voldemort and draco will be relatively safe.

But one question remains. how could a man like severus snape be able to lie to such an accomplished legilimens like voldemort?

because of his heart... severus snape in my opinion is a tarnished and unwhole individual, haunted by a ghastly past. i believe that a cunning wizard like snape, would be able to hide behind his hatred for harry and his parents. i also think that he somewhat hates dumbledore, although he holds a large amount of respect for him. note that voldemort as well hates dumbledore, but respected him as well. it is on this, that i state my claim that snape is in fact dumbledore's man, and not voldemort's.

O man o man o man! see, that is exactly what i thought at first too. but then, i got to thinking, she probably put it like that, thinking that we would think about it differently than it actually is and therefore we will be in for a huge shocker! i truly believe now that snape is working for voldemort and that he killed dumbledore because it was his orders, and if he was truly working for dumbledore, he would have died from the unbreakable vow rather than kill his leader! dumbledore's not normally an idiot (i cant believe i just insulted a dead man, never thought i would do that!) but he was very stupid indeed to trust severus snape. in other words, i think jkr is putting the truth and the answer and the proof to it right under our noses, and we just cant see it because we are looking too deep and looking for the wrong explaination!

You know, I've been struggling for a long time against the evidence to try to find some way that Snape is innocent as I believe him to be, and it always warms by cynical old heart when I see people arguing for him

I don't think I've heard that particular defence before, Margherita, and you've made a good point there - I hadn't thought about Snape's words in this context before, but you're right, it does make sense now, doesn't it? People always speak from experience and they recognise their own faults in other people, as I think, Snape sees his faults in Potter. Perhaps that's one of the reasons why he hates him so much - people always hate the reflections of things they like least about themselves in other people.

I still firmly believe that if Snape does turn out to be evil after all, then JKR has made a serious misjudgement and she's going to disappoint an awful lot of people. Snape being guilty=Dumbledore being an idiot...I just can't see her doing that to Dumbledore.

Dumbledore is not an idiot, whether or not Snape serves Dumbledore or Voldemort. If Snape is on Dumbledore's side, then he is clearly not an idiot, but if Snape does serve Voldemort, then that does not automatically make Dumbledore stupid. We know that Snape is a very intelligent person, we also know that Dumbledore is a very trusting person. My point is that Snape could create a story that Dumbledore would believe, because he wanted to believe Snape. Dumbledore has trusted a lot of people that most people wouldn't, because he looks for the good in everyone. That's how Snape could convincingly lie to Dumbledore.

Right, and that's all well thought out and said and all, and you have great reasoning on that, but what i believe is just the futher result. if snape is really betrying voldemort, then he just would not have killed dumbledore. he [dumbledore] was a very very important leader in the order and now i think that the order is going to just fall apart without dumbledore!

Okay, maybe idiot was a little strong, but my respect for Dumbledore would plummit to below sea level if he made such a collosal, clanking, huge error of judgement based on "emotions" that would likely threaten not only his own safety, but the safety of the hundreds of children who were in his care. Great men don't make mistakes like that - there's nothing wrong with trusting people and having faith in them, but surely you have to excercise at least a modicum of sense and intelligence and not give a potential traitor the key to the kingdom, which is essentially what Dumbledore did - if Snape does turn out to be evil.

I fully understand that there are many people out there who think that Dumbledore's mistake, if he did make one, was understandable and should make us feel sorry for him, that his vulnerability was exploited. I have no problem with that, to each his own. It's just that for me, the books will have lost all credibility and JKR would committed the biggest character assassination I think I've ever seen. It's not sweet, and it's not endearing - it was stupid and I don't think Dumbledore attained that level of respect by being stupid.

I honestly don't see how Snape could possibly be guilty and Dumbledore ever come out of this being anything other than a doddery, weak fool.

Karsh - there are so many arguments being made around your point and it has been discussed quite a bit before, but it's not as black and white as I think you're trying to make it. There may have been a very good reason why Snape did what he had to do - just because we don't know it yet, that doesn't mean that Snape should be hung, drawn and quartered. What if Dumbledore was dying anyway? What if there was an arrangement whereby Dumbledore traded his life for Malfoy's or Harry's? Just because the reason isn't obvious, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

michelle, you just hit it on the nose there...

as i have already said, i am sure that dumbledore traded his life for malfoy, harry, and snape. I understand why we all think that dunbledore is stupid, that he messed up, and that his fault is seeing the good and not the bad in people. until recently, i agreed with that. But, there is a reason why he is portrayed in that manner. JKR, as clever as she is , spent the last several chapters building up our minds to think that dumbledore is a fool. think about it... harry thinks snape is truly evil because of trelaweny, he think malfoy is going to do something and Dumbledore doesn't know. then Dumbledore is wounded, which has not happened in previous books. all these signs of weakness we have never seen before are clearly playing with our minds, to JKR's advantage. i believe we are meant to think that dumdledore is a fool and snape is evil, which of course is what the order of the phoenix and harry believes.

First of all, there is no doubt that Snape is on the side of good. I'm not sure how deeply this next theory has been discussed, but it fits too perfectly to not have some basis in truth.

Now. i read somewhere (im not sure where) that JKR hinted that Lily's, Harry's mother's, past was going to be very important in book 7. If this is not just a fabricated rumor, then listen to this.

I believe that Snape was in love with Lily Evans, and loathed James for winning her. This would explain why he first joined voldemort- to have his chance to kill James himself, or simply because he couldn't stand to be so close to the potters. It would also explain his deep remorse over causing Lily's death. It would also explain why he hates Harry- everyone says how much he is like his father. It would also present an "iron-clad" reason that Dumbledore would trust Snape for, but never tell anybody else. Also, this could also explain why Snae is so reclusive... he's been burned bad once and can't stand to get close to anyone else. Truly sad actually if it's true.

yeah there is a whole other discussion on that idea, what role lilly played to snape and what there reltionship was.
i too believe that what you have said is the case. the fact that harry is the result of lillies love for james and not snapes, it could be that snape doesnt hate harry because he is like james but instead because he represents what snape wanted but could never have and will never have!

I just can't believe that Snape could possibly have loved Lily. Snape isn't an idiot. I mean, what kind of guy deliberately uses one of the most offensive words possible against the girl he loves? I really don't get this whole "Snape loves Lily" theory, and I just can't buy that that's the reason for his actions. It would certainly fit his actions well enough, but there could be hundreds of other ways to explain his actions. I really don't think Snape loved Lily. Possible... but in my mind, unlikely.

Haven't you ever heard the phrase that we hurt the ones we love the most? Okay, that's trite, but true. Sometimes, people do weird things like that - if their feelings are not requited, then like can twist to something else that causes pain and that pain can lead you to say or do things that hurt others.

I don't think it's such a remote possibility that maybe Snape had a thing for Lily. I'm not saying it's the love of the century or anything like that, but considering that they were both good at potions, it's conceivable that they would have spent a lot of time together and maybe Snape developed a bit of a fixation. It's also conceivable that Lily was genuinely hurt by Snape calling her a mudblood - he hurt her badly, so what did she want to do? Hurt him back just as badly, how could she do that? Attacking him as his greatest enemy did, call him Snivelly. Whatever friendship they may have had probably disintegrated at that time which maybe is the reason we had the whole Snape's Worst Memory chapter. That was his worst memory, remember. Not anything to do with the DeathEaters or not getting the DADA job or anything that happened with his parents. I don't think this is a bad explanation for his behaviour at all and I concur fully with Quidam. I don't want to take this discussion down that route though because there is a thread on Snape/Lily in the ships forum where this can be explored, but so far as an explanation as to motivation goes, I think this is as good an idea as any.

Jerry - again, I totally agree. JKR certainly did manipulate Dumbledore in this book into being a bit of a doddery old man and that could be for many reasons - maybe he was sick, maybe he was tired or maybe he'd somehow seen into the future and knew what was going to happen. But Snape's behaviour throughout the entire book remains frustratingly ambiguous and I guess that's the genius of it. JKR has proven herself capable of manipulating her readers into following a particular train of thought many times and then whipped the rug out from under their feet and I really do think that's what she's done again this time. She wants people to believe that Dumbledore is simply a kind and generous old man and that Snape is an evil, nasty piece of work and that's exactly what legions of fans have done. But looking at it from an adult perspective - that there may be good reasons for doing bad things - and looking at a wider picture, there is far more reason for believing that the only person Snape has betrayed is Voldemort.

I mean, look at it like this - I guess it's pretty obvious that I'm a huge 24 fan. I don't know how many of you watch it, but basically there have been many, many times when Jack Bauer has had to torture and kill people in order to extract information from them that could potentially save the lives of millions of people. Does that make what he does right? No, of course not. But sometimes, the needs of the many have to outweigh the needs of the few. Plus those people didn't need to be killed or tortured - they could simply have told the truth and backed off. They didn't - they made a choice to be difficult, knowing that Jack would have to take the action he did. It's an ugly world and sometimes bad things are the only way in which good things can be accomplished. No one says they are right - they're necessary, which is an entirely different thing.

I believe that what Snape did was necessary for a far greater good. No doubt, he'll die for it in the end as I think he now must, and I think he hated having to do it - hence the look of anger and loathing - but he knew that he had no choice.

Remember one thing - Dumbledore was pleading for something. Can anyone here honestly put their hand on their heart and seriously believe that a great man like Dumbledore would plead for his life? "After all, death is but the next great adventure." No, of course he wasn't. So if he wasn't pleading for his life, what was he pleading for? Surely, there's only one possible conclusion. He was pleading for his death - for Snape to do what he had to do.

yes, definitly.
Dumbledore was pleading for his death, and for snape to do what he had to do.
It may be well that dumledore commtis mistakes, he says "great men commit great mistakes" or something like that.
but it can't be that he would plead for his life...six years that we have been knowing dubledore as the wisest, the cleverset and most skilled wizard of every time...and what? he pleads for his life...
no way...i respect other's opinion, but i just can't force myself into believing this...
I also am a "huge" 23 fan.. and i would have never expected this from dubledore...i had actually to read through the death passage four or five times before resigning myself to accept what had happened.
i said: ok dumbledore is definitely dead...
(but i was getting used to the idea since the beginning of the book.. all this talking about dumbledore being old and weak and paying harry all that attention as it was trying to catch up with the time lost, and telling him eveything he knew,like a sort of will... gave me a strong feeling that he was going to die)

then i sadi ok. snape has actually killed him....
but it can't be that he' is really betrying dubledore's trust

Snape stared to grow on me since his worst memory, and the occlumency lessons, which gave away a lot about snape true identity...
and i think that those chapters weere there for a precise purpose: jkr wanted us to think that after all snape was human, was weak, was sad..and that there had to be a reason if he had become like that, she wanted us to feel never the same again about snape. And she surely has managed to do that for the most attentive readers..obviously kids won't pay to much attention to this details, they simply see in snape the wicked teacher, which they hate, that's all.

but here we aren't dissucssing like kids do: they think that evil and good are just two separate ends with nothing inbetween.
snape, in my opinion is exactly inbetween.
he is human.

I want to play a little devil's advocate on this. I want to bring back my theory that Snape could be betraying everyone except himself. Wouldn't it be possible that his reaction to his responsibility of killing the only person he would ever love was to go utterly evil. It would be the perfect opportunity to use Dumbledore. I would argue that it wouldn't diminish Dumbledore as a great man. The suprise is that Snape was a greater wizard than we ever expected and that he is up to the challenge of deceiving Dumbledore. It would be a tragic failure to be sure, but it would be based on the best interests of everyone involved. If it all worked out in the end, which I'm sure it will, then Dumbledore would have done the right thing, in a round about way. Snape was necessary to push things in the right direction to achieve the end goal. Just because his reasons aren't honorable, doesn't mean that his actions don't affect things in a positive way. It is similar to Gollum's role in The Lord of the Rings.

Yes, I do believe that Snape has a certain tendency towards solipsism, and that he regards his own needs and wishes before those of others.
Solipsists go a few steps further than people who are merely selfish or self-centered. They are what you may call the opposite of "sociable".
Snape is a loner, he does not share, does not rely on others but uses them as he feels he must, believes that he is alone, takes responsibility for no one except himself, accepts only his own judgement.

But solipsists believe that the only thing that exists is themselves, and so the only thing that matters is themselves. They believe that there is no Good and Evil, they believe that the universe only exists so that they can live in it and experience it. Voldemort is perhaps a solipsist, but Snape is not.

He may regard his own needs and wishes before those of others, but this is a necessity to survive as a functioning human being rather than a conscious choice.
Snape might even be a nice and sociable person ... if he only knew how. He is like an autist, his ability to relate to other people is locked in a cage. But he is not a "natural autist"; the cage is of his own making, necessary to shut out the bad things that happened in his childhood and to keep his own vulnerable, personality safe. Such a cage is hard to dismantle later in life. There is always a barrier between his true feelings and his behaviour, so that his sensitivities remain protected. He won't let anyone get close, he keeps social appearances to a minimum, and has attained some kind of equilibrium between his hidden needs and the controlled person he wants to be. But we've seen through Harry's eyes how sensitive Snape can be when the control slips. Harry doesn't really understand what he is seeing at such times, he doesn't take the time to wonder why. Maybe he would have sussed it out if Voldemort hadn't returned, but Dark times were upon them and Harry and Snape do what they must do. They don't have the time to understand each other.

All the clues we are given in the books suggest that it is Voldemort that Snape is betraying. We have to look at the times that Snape's control is slipping. There are many layers to peel away before you get at the truth. Voldemort is satisfied peeling away just one layer; he doesn't believe anyone could have more than simple selfish motives. He'll just see Snape's hatred of weakness and interpret it as he interprets his own. He'll see that as an advantage rather than a threat. He'll see Snape's detestation of Harry but won't see the reasons why. These things help protect Snape against Voldemort's Legilimency, which is a real threat. So it is Snape's strength as well as his weakness that are crucial to Dumbledore's plan.

Mmm...that's an interesting way of looking at it. I completely agree that the closest we get to who Snape really is is when he loses control and shows anger - very rarely any other emotion. But then, attack is the first line of defence and Snape is certainly used to having to defend himself, so I suppose that's no great surprise.

The trouble is that Harry is young and younger people do tend to see things in black and white and life just isn't like that - it's why we're at a disadvantage in seeing other character's through the filter of Harry.

I also think you hit on something important with Voldemort not understanding Snape's motivations or feelings. Voldemort is actually quite a two dimensional character really, he's very easy to figure out. That's probably why Snape is able to manipulate him and the situation - he's a far cleverer man that Voldemort could ever hope to be.

All that being said, I don't think Snape found any of this easy - that's probably why he was arguing with Dumbledore. He was trying to protect Malfoy, of course, but don't forget that he was also supposed to be working for Dumbledore - his loyalties were very torn and it's no wonder he was having such trouble figuring out what to do. He had no choice in making the vow because if he hadn't, Bella would have killed him - or, at the very least, he would have given himself away. But in making it, he knew what he might have to do. Maybe that's why he was arguing with Dumbledore - he didn't want the headmaster to find out who was trying to kill him because he knew that he would likely be forced to fulfil Malfoy's task. He was protecting them both. Maybe he thought he could control the situation, but clearly he couldn't.

Also remember that he left Harry alive. He didn't have to, not anymore. Why did he do that? Why create your own worst enemy, and a formidable one at that? It just doesn't make sense to me any other way.

Well, remember, none of the Death Eaters weere supposed to harm Harry.

Well, all this is sort of confusing..
At the end of GoF, Dumbledore asks Snape to go somewhere, and we now know clearly it was to Voldemort.
But one line puzzled me the most...the strange glitter in Snape's eyes when Dumbledore asked him to return to Voldemort.
Was it because he was waiting for Dumbledore to say this and wanted to return to the Dark Lord?
Or was it because he felt important as his position was of a spy, the most dangerous tasks bestowed on him?

Well I am joining this discussion in a hopeful attempt to decide who Snape is truly betraying. I have never liked Snape and I definitely would not be sad if he were to die in book 7. Yet when Snape-supporters give a good argument I really start to think that Snape is good. Michelle's point that Dumbledore is not afraid of death - it is the next adventure to him - really makes me think that Dumbledore planned his death for some wiser and grander purpose that we cannot yet conceive. I do not think that he would ever plead for his life, so I must assume that he was pleading for Snape to remember some plan that they had concocted to assure Voldemort's trust in Snape. If Dumbledore had planned his own death, then it would make sense that he suddenly wanted to teach Harry about Horcruxes and about Voldemort's past. Voldemort's lack of ability to see that death is not the worst thing to happen may shroud his judgment that Dumbledore might give up his own life for a great cause. Snape should now be highly favored in Voldemort's eyes since he killed the Dark Lord's greatest enemy, and that might enable him to learn more about Voldemort's secrets. Then Snape would be able to assist Harry in his quest to discover the Horcruxes and destroy them. I really hope to get to the bottom of this soon... the character of Snape is so confusing!

In an interview Jk answer in a very mistery way.

What would see Dumbledore in the mirror of Erised?

I can't tell you that.

So, if he was in front of a boggart, what shaoe would it take?

Neither I can't

So that help my theory Dumbledore didn't fear the dead, only pleading Snape to stay on the good side, pleading Snape this, maybe was the biggest fear of Dumbledore. Being betrayed.

I want Snape to be good.
But I know he's not.

You know? Aw, come on now, no one can know anything at this point

JKR's answers could mean absolutely anything - she's deliberately ambiguous for a reason. I do appreciate what you're saying, about Dumbledore pleading for Snape to be good, but that alone is open to interpretation. If, by your argument, he was pleading for Snape to do the right thing and not kill him, then he's pleading for his life. Conversely, if he was pleading for Snape to be good and yet still be unafraid of death, then maybe he was just reminding Snape, in his final moments, to remember whose cause he is really serving. But to be honest, I think that interpretation is way too complex and I don't think JKR is really all that deep. She's ambiguous, yes, but I don't think her logic is that complicated.

iamthe7thhorcrux, welcome to the conversation! Always nice to see a new face! Well...to see a new poster anyway... I think that's very important - Dumbledore seemingly offloading this huge amount of information on Harry all of a sudden. It really is as though he's planning for his own death, isn't it? Tidying up his affairs - it's exactly what someone who knew he was dying would do. I really don't think that's something that can be ignored. The only question is, of course, if he knew he was dying, does that mean he was sick? Or does it mean that he knew that someone was trying to kill him? In which case, did he really have no idea who it was? I just can't believe that...he must have known it was Malfoy and he must have known about the Vow. If he didn't, then why all this preparation for death?

Bhavya, that's come up before and I don't think we reached any conclusions about it, to be honest. It's a tough one, that. I honestly don't know. At the time I read it, I thought that maybe Snape was just sort of steeling himself for what he knew would be a difficult task. That doesn't make him good or bad though - it would be difficult to get back in with Voldemort no matter what side he was ultimately on because he'd spent so long with Dumbledore and didn't return the moment he was called, so whatever the case, he would have some explaining to do. Obviously, whatever he said, Voldemort bought it, so I don't know.

stonesorcerer - Yeah, it's an interesting point. But I would still argue that Voldemort is exceptionally stupid for making such a daft order. Surely it wouldn't matter who killed Harry ultimately, so long as he was dead? It's just so cliched that the big guy always wants to kill the hero himself because it's *always* the way these people come to an end. Give the hero an opening and he takes it - it makes me so mad sometimes, honestly...why are the bad guys always such idiots?! Anywho, I don't know about this either. I would have thought that it doesn't matter how Harry dies, so long as he does. I'm sure that Snape is high enough up with Voldemort after offing Dumbledore that he would get away with the small secondary matter of doing away with Harry too.

At the end of the day, we could talk about this until the cows come home and we won't get anywhere - this whole thing is meant to be deliberately vague, ambiguous and open to interpretation and ultimately it comes down to how each individual decides to look at what they've read.

It's just that personally, Snape being ultimately good is the only way that this whole thing would make sense. Otherwise, I fear for book seven and the series as a whole because it's going to be a very weak and cliched ending. *sigh*

I mean, it's going to be Harry stampeding all over the Death Eaters like a bad Chuck Norris film, wiping them out one by one, Snape is going to be the mini boss, then Voldemort will be the big one. Dead, dead, dead, game over. Whoop-de-do. I may as well have bought the Die Hard books...

I have a few pointers about thinking that Snape hasn't betrayed Dumbledore.
1.When Dumbledore said "Severus...please"I don't think he was begging for mercy.I think Dumbeldore uset Leggilimence to give orders to Snape.Can you imagine Dumbledore begging for mercy-I can't.Didn't Dumbledore say that for a good mind death was just the next big adventure.Many people say that Sirius is a double agent.Well I think Snape is pretending to be a double agent but actoally is loyal do Dumbledore.
2.Again by saying "Seveus..please"he mend that Snape should protect Harry in his quest for the Horcruxes.Dumbeldore (I'm sure)knew that he was going to die very soon (afterall he is 157years old,see www.hp-lexicon.org)so he discused with Snape everything he should do after the his death.

Hi Everyone, I am new here to this post. I was thinking about what all you guys said about the idea of who is Snape really betraying. I really don't know which side he is on. When I read that part in the book I wanted to kill him myself. After I read the rest of the book, I re-read that part of he book and came to a different conclusion. We all know that Snape was loyal to Dumbledore because at the end of book 4 Dumbledore asked him if he is ready for the job he must ask him. Snape said yes which means that Snape would pretty much do anything Dumbledore asked him. I really think he switched sides to the good after he found out who Voldemort was going to kill, I don't think he was truly sorry for Harry's parents death. Not his father's anyway, but maybe his mothers. We all know that everyone inHogwartss at thatparticularr time liked andrespectedd Lily even Snape. He might have even loved her, who knows, that should be in another thread. Sorry for going off the topic there. Back to the questions.
We all know Dumbledore doesn't fear death, he told us in the first book that he doesn't right at the end. I don't know but it seemskind ofa strange to me that Dumbledore would plead for his life, that just isn't how he was in the books, yes he was getting on the years after all he was over a hundred. But I don't think he was a fool, or an idiot. He knewsomethingg about Snape and knew he would never betray him. If it's different in the 7th book then I deserveeverythingg I am about to receive on return posts. I just think that Snape is truly on the side of good because even after he kills Dumbledore and is making his escape. After Harry was trying to get back at him, he started using his own spells against Snape, and also called him a coward. He knew he did the most noble thing by protecting Harry and Draco and someone calls him a coward. I know he is mean and suppose to be a bad guy. But then why does he try to teach Harry after this all happens. Saying something to the effect that Harry's spells are blocked so easily because he isn't trying to close his mind.
It all reminds me of the part in the 5th book during occulmency lessons when Snape was trying to teach him. Would he try to teach Harry if he was really a bad guy, no. If he is a bad guy why teach him. He would be an easier target for LV if he doesn't know how to close his mind. But he is still trying to tell him he needs to learn to close his mind. JKR is not stupid she would not give us all these subtle hints if things really play out like this. It would be a really bad ending to her fantastic series. I personally like the plot twists and neck-breaking detours in the books. I think things will turn out to be almost exactly opposite to what direction it is going. Well not really exactly opposite, but the thing about Snape is going to be opposite. What do you guys think about that. LOL Hope you guys like it.

All of your points could be argued in the exact opposite direction. He obeyed Dumbledore because Voldemort could use him in the same way that Dumbledore could - as a spy.

your very right, but don't you think its weird that he is still teaching him after Dumbledore is killed. I think it is. That is what I am gonna discuss until the next book comes out. I always have different ways I can look at it.

Snape is trying to make a point. In his opinion, Harry won't have a chance at all against Voldemort if he can't close off his mind. Snape believes that the only chance they have will rely on secrecy.

What he is forgetting though, is that Harry's guilelessness is working as well as secrecy against Voldemort, because Voldemort is completely blind to this kind of thinking.

I hope that Harry will remember a crucial hint he had been given during his Occumency lessons with Snape, which will give him a powerful weapon against Voldemort ... if he can only remember it when the time comes to defend himself against Voldemort's Legilimency.

Yeah... *she begrudgingly admits*...I have to say that the mockery is far more in keeping with Snape's character than his still teaching Harry. I would love to believe that he was trying to offer pointers to Harry even in the eleventh hour, but as far as Snape-being-good evidence goes, that isn't the strongest piece.

I still think that the fact that he stopped Malfoy from torturing Harry with the Cruciatus (which I'm assuming he used) was significant though. Yes, Voldemort's orders were to leave Harry to Voldemort, but the intention of torture isn't to kill - it's to hurt and punish, ultimately leaving him alive. I don't think that a few minutes of a schoolkid's Unforgivable would do any lasting, long-term damage, so why didn't Snape allow Malfoy just a tiny bit of revenge for six years worth of enemity? All we do know is that Snape, for six years, has consistently done everything he could to keep Harry safe. He hasn't made life pleasant for him, obviously, but he has never, ever, gone out of his way to hurt him. There were always occasions when he could have gotten away with it - during the Occlumancy lessons, for example...or during the numerous detentions. He could have come up with any number of ways of provoking Harry into doing something that would have made a reprisal justifiable, but he never did. Not even when Harry 'stole' his worst memory.

iamthe7thhorcrux - the trouble with that conversation I see though is that it's clear that Snape doesn't want to do something. His supporters say that it was killing Dumbledore - implying that Dumbledore knew all along that he was the target. His critics say that he was refusing to make investigations into Slytherin because he knew it would put him into an impossible position with Draco after he'd sworn to protect him - implying that Dumbledore didn't know he was the target. Which brings us right back to where we started - if he didn't know he was the target, then why this information dump? But if he was pressing Snape to make investigations into his house, it seems that maybe he knew something was going on and knew that Snape was hiding something - perhaps Dumbledore was testing him? Perhaps he knew that Snape had made the Vow and was seeing if Snape would admit it?

The biggest problem is, of course, that the only source we have for this information is Hagrid - who only heard half a conversation and isn't exactly the most reliable person anyway. Remember that Snape only heard half the prophecy - he missed the crucial half, leaving Voldemort to act on faulty intelligence.

It's so confusing because sometimes, Dumbledore seems to know exactly what's going on and then at other times, such as this reported conversation, he doesn't and he's still fumbling for answers.

One thing we should remember though - Snape is not a man who openly displays emotions unless something touches a very sensitive nerve with him. Harry touched it during the Worst Memory thing - evidently, Dumbledore touched it during this conversation too. Snape was angry - he was yelling. How, when control during occlumancy is so important, did Snape manage to lose his temper? If he was hiding his thoughts from Dumbledore then, he couldn't have been doing a very good job of it, eh?

My thoughts exactly - Malfoy did not perform the Cruciatus Curse on Harry; it was either the brother, the sister, or the enormous Death Eater. I think it was most likely the enormous Death Eater.
In my last two posts I have gone with the theory that Dumbledore planned his death with the help of Snape, but then I re-read the chapter Spinner's End in HBP and am having second thoughts. There are a few facts that I noticed, and I am beginning to lean toward the Snape-hater side of this thread again.
1) Snape kept pressing more and more wine on Narcissa - was he trying to calm her? or was he trying to inhibit her awareness of what was going on and being said?
2) Snape talks about "Dumbledore's greatest weakness: He has to believe the best of people. I spun him a tale of deepest remorse when I joined his staff, fresh from my Death Eater days, and he embraced me with open arms..." (pg.31, U.S. edition) Later we find out that Snape told Dumbledore that he was sorry that James and Lilly were killed by Voldemort and that he was sorry that he was the one who passed the information about the prophecy to Voldemort. Snape confirms this in the quote, but is he telling the truth? or he is lying to Bellatrix to gain her trust?
3) Snape talks about his bitterness that Dumbledore did not let him teach D.A.D.A. "He wouldn't give me the Defense Against the Dark Arts job, you know. Seemed to think it might, ah, bring about a relapse . . . tempt me into my old ways." (p. 27, U.S. edition) Is this a foreshadowing, since Dumbledore does allow Snape to be D.A.D.A. teacher the same year that he seemingly betrays Dumbledore and possibly reveals his truly evil intentions?
Hmm....
Yet if Snape was betraying Dumbledore, then why did he give Harry advice about closing his mind to Voldemort? I can't remember who said this, but it was a very good argument stating that Snape saw himself in Harry. The person said that Snape used to be very emotional and wallowed in his past until he learned to close his mind against Voldemort. Then he became angry with Harry for wearing his emotions on his sleeve because it reminded Snape of what he used to be like.
Also, I am very intrigued in something that is stated at the very end of the 6th book. "'Don't - ' screamed Snape, and his face was suddenly demented, inhuman, as though he was in as much pain as the yelping, howling dog stuck in the burning house behind them - 'Call me coward!'" What is the source of his pain? Is it his hatred for Harry? Is it his guilt from killing Dumbledore? I don't know really what to think. The further I think about it, the more confused I become.

iamthe7thhorcrux -- Let's assume for a minute that Snape is on Dumbledore's and Harry's side, but has to keep that a deep secret in order to fulfill the role of agent for the Order of the Phoenix planted at Voldemort's side. He has been a double agent before, pretending to spy for Voldemort at Hogwarts but in reality working for the Order and passing Death Eater information to Dumbledore. There is evidence in GoF that he took up the double agent role again the moment it had become clear that Voldemort had returned -- this was the scene where Dumbledore instructed Lupin to become his spy in the camp of the werewolves, told Sirius to rally the members of the Order, and asked Snape if he was ready to do what they had agreed, and Snape left, answering the summons of the Dark Mark a little bit late but with a ready excuse.
Two years later, at the end of HBP, Snape's position at Hogwarts has become untenable. More is needed to convince Voldemort of Snape's Deat Eater loyalty, the little bit of information he has been passing is hardly enough to justify Snape's absence from major Death Eater battles. Dumbledore knows this.
Let's now assume that Dumbledore decided that his time on earth was coming to an end soon. There are many hints in his words that support this: he tells Harry that his blood and his life is less valuable than Harry's, for instance; he wishes to sacrifice himself in order to advance Harry's chances. Harry understands that it is his task to fight Voldemort, Not Dumbledore's, and he accepted it. Dumbledore is passing his knowledge about Voldemort to Harry, and is getting ready to let go.
The death was foreseen, of that I am sure. I'm also sure that Dumbledore discussed it with Snape and instructed Snape to keep his cover at all cost and never be seen to help Dumbledore, and kill him if he must do it to maintain his cover.
Dumbledore trusted Snape, but also knew that Snape had come to hate this task. Not only had he abjured the Dark side, he also knew that his self-control was not as strong as it had been fifteen years ago -- he had reacted badly to the presence of Harry Potter and the reopening of old wounds, and he feared that his weaknesses would not be unnoticed by the enemy. Maybe he was even beginning to doubt whether he could pull it off. And on top of everything, he hated having to kill the only man who ever believed in him, the only man who ever saw the true Snape and loved him.

He knew he had to do it. It was the hardest thing he has had to do in his life. It was designed to convince everyone on both sides that he was evil, and the only one who knew the truth would be dead. It would plunge him in the greatest darkness he had ever endured, and the greatest danger if his true motives were discovered.

And the person he was pledged to help in this way was none other than Harry, the boy who would never see why Snape had to do what he did, the boy whose unjust hatred Snape has had to endure for so long, the boy who had arrogantly refused to learn the only things that had helped Snape to withstand Voldemort, the boy who had made mistake after mistake, including the one of not seeing how they were both on the same side. Snape was laying his life and his soul on the line for Harry, and Harry would never know.

And Harry of all people accused him of being a coward.

i like how you put your own opinion Bumblebee. I like what you wrote, very interesting. I also thought aong those lines but never got around to putting them on here. I got other stuff on my mind right now. I just wanted to know if you were influenced by what other people wrote on here. Or is that your honest opinion in it.

I try to keep an open mind, so that I am able to listen to other people's theories.
There are many people on VTM who feel that Snape is on Dumbledore's side and will betray Voldemort in the end. Some of the arguments that have been made for that theory do happen to coincide with mine.

Am I influenced by them? How can one honestly say that one is not when one sees something that seems to corroborate one's own thinking, or that one is not when one sees something that seems to be completely off the mark? I am influenced by what is happening around me every second of the day. I aim for it to be so, because that makes me feel that I am fully conscious.

My theories about Snape are based upon a psychological profile I made quite early on (at the end of CoS). So far, nothing he said or did gave cause to change my mind. With every book, the character was enriched in detail, but his motivations were essentially true to that same profile. I really have to bow to Jo Rowling; Severus Snape is a masterpiece. The torture of his private hell is so exquisite. The way she writes of it is quite stunning in places, and very powerful.

Not everyone will see this, though. It all depends on your own experience how much or little you can see at first of what Jo Rowling is trying to tell you. All people are flawed. Everyone is given a start in life, some get a good start and many advantages, some get a rough deal. Everyone has a chance to make something of their life or ruin it, depending on the choices they make and the responsibility their take for their choices. Some succeed, some fail. No one is purely black or white, purely happy or purely miserable, and everyone makes mistakes, and mistakes are never completely bad. This is not a simple fairy tale in which everybody lives happily ever after and the good guys don't have faults. Through following their journeys, the reader may understand a little more of their own choices and that is not a bad thing.

im still not sure who snape is betraying but in the halfblood prince dumbledore tells harry that since he turned the post of defence against the darks arts teacher away to voldemort himself they havent been able to keep one for more than a year but yet he still let slughorn have potions and put snape as defence against the dark arts teacher even though he knew this. Now dumbledore might have done this for a reason to test his loyalty or for him to be a more active spy and planned the whole thing so its weird its just a thought please could i here other views on my comment please thankyou

xnickyx535 -- as for your first point, I don't think Dumbledore planned to put Snape in the DADA post to test his loyalty. Snape's loyalty did not need to be tested in this way, Dumbledore's trust was unconditional and the others trusted Dumbledore so they accepted this.
Snape had applied for the DADA post again and again for many years, but had been refused. Why? Because I believe that Dumbledore thought it unwise to reveal too much about Snape's personal views on the Dark Arts, and preferred to keep him in a post where Snape's personal defences against the Dark Arts could be kept hidden.
But now both Snape and Dumbledore knew that the moment was approaching that Snape would have to do something big to convince Voldemort he was still a faithful Death Eater, and he wasn't expected to stay at his Hogwarts post after that. It didn't matter so much any more what the post was, and giving Snape the DADA post made it look for a while that Snape was achieving something against Dumbledore's will. It was a diversion, and at the same time it achieved another goal: to bring Slughorn (and Slughorn's memories of Voldemort's school years) safely out of Voldemort's reach within Hogwart's walls.

Has all that just been a fortunate coincidence, or has it all been part of a complex, many-layered plan such as only Dumbledore's genius could have devised?

Bumblebee
Thank you so much for your responses! I feel like I'm straddling the fence on this one - sometimes I think that Snape betrayed Dumbledore's trust, while other times I think that Snape was just following Dumbledore's orders. Previously I have mostly argued that Snape is on Dumbledore's side, but I have never been able to put it into words so succinctly as you did.
My only doubt concerns why Dumbledore trusted Snape when he was fresh from his Death Eater days. I do not think that he trusted him only by Snape's regret that James and Lily Potter were dead. Dumbledore knew better than anyone how much Snape and James loathed each other, and Lilly and Snape never got along too well either. I think that there was something else that Snape did to prove his loyalty to Dumbledore. Anyone - any ideas on what that could be? Or perhaps Snape really was sincere when he said that he was sorry that his information lead to the Potters' deaths. Dumbledore once mentioned in Book 1 that the Severus/James hatred was not unlike the hatred between Harry and Draco. We all know how much Harry hates Draco, yet he was horrified when he discovered what his Sictumsepra spell did to his enemy. Perhaps Snape was the same. When he eagerly passed Voldemort the information about the prophecy, he was not aware that it involved the Potter family. So when James was killed, Snape realized what he had done and became repentant. He vowed to Dumbledore that he would help him do anything to help James's son Harry.
Snape's complex personality certainly is apparant ever since Book 1.

pg. 300, Book 1, U.S. edtion:
Harry - "Quirrell said he hates me because he hated my father. Is that true?"
DD - "Well, they did rather detest each other. Not unlike yourself and Mr. Malfoy. And then, your father did something Snape could never forgive . . . He saved his life . . . Funny, the way people's minds work, isn't it? Professor Snape couldn't bear being in your father's debt . . . . I do believe he worked so hard to protect you this year because he felt that would make him and your father even. Then he could go back to hating your father's memory in peace . . ."
Harry tried to understand this but it made his head pound, so he stopped.

And a quick thought on Dumbledore . . . I think that he did make an mistake due to his emotions when he delayed telling Harry about the prophecy because he cared so much about Harry's well-being. However the deal with Snape is a trust issue. I think that before DD would accept a former Death Eater as a teacher at his school, he would make absolutely sure that he/she could be trusted. His first and foremost concern is for his students; he would not make a gamble concerning their safety.

MDV
your are right about the instrutiveness of the book. but couldnt the message be that even the wisest of humans slip up and make mistakes. jkr could be explaining that noone is perfect, and that even the smartest can be fooled, and ron who we never thought to be the sharpest tool in the shed, could be right in his accusations of snape, he was still accusing him of helping lv up to and thru the 5th book.

Just a thought

hp6 -- yes, the wisest of people slip up and make mistakes. And so Dumbledore makes mistakes too. He is sometimes overprotective. He found it difficult to let go. But I don't think his mistakes extend to misunderstanding Snape's basic allegiance.

As far as I can see, Dumbledore is not all-knowing but his knowledge and his understanding is so much greater than that of other wizards that he cannot communicate his knowledge and wisdom to anyone in practical terms. He doesn't even try. Despite the desperate need of the Order for powerful spells, Dumbledore doesn't attempt to teach his powerful magic to anyone. There simply is no time for it and nobody is ready.
There are a few other things that Dumbledore found impossible to communicate to Harry or the other members of the Order. The reason why he trusts Snape. The reason why he must leave. The reason why he cannot reveal everything that he knows.

Dumbledore has been committed to protecting the wizarding world's chance to stem an outbreak of evil. It is Voldemort's evil that has to be combatted, not the human person Voldemort that might still be alive inside that mutilated body. I believe that in destroying a Horcrux the anchored portion of the soul is unchained, and that if all Voldemort's Horcruxes are destroyed and Voldemort's body dies, the soul may get a chance to heal and regain its humanity. Then evil will once more be without focus, without an agent to work its malice. This is the work that Dumbledore has undertaken: to destroy the opportunities for Evil to take root and abuse human weaknesses. At every turn Dumbledore has been there, guarding and guiding, suggesting and encouraging, allowing his pupils to learn through trial and error because wisdom comes with experience rather than through instruction. The wise know that the greatest good comes from letting individuals make their own choices, and will allow bad choices by necessity; nothing will last that is made certain by removing choice. So Dumbledore does not force Snape to do anything, whatever Snape does remains Snape's choice. It has to be so, or else Snape would be a puppet.

hp6,
yes you are right,
telling children that making mistakes is part of human natur eis surely one of the educational contents od these books.
But this message has been got across many time before, on less important matters than snape's ture loyality...( we have already been told that dumbledore makes mistakes)
but it is not a simple mistake that we are discussing here, here we are discussing a 16 year long mistake, dumbledore would never have made a mistake which would have theraten the safety of his students, and allow the corruption of their souls, by letting them be taught by a wizard of whose true intentions he was not sure)
Dumbledore was younger when he let Snape teach in his school, his mind was not weakend by years ( as he himself says at the end of ootp, when explaying harry why he had not told him before about the prophecy; "these are an old man's mistakes"), and he trusted snape since. for what? we don't know...yet.

Crikey, this thread moves quickly!!! Alrighty - I'll do my best to cover as many points as I can, but you'll have to forgive me if it seems I've ignored some posts - I haven't...it's just limitations of time, unfortunately...

Anywho...

M.Dessler,

Very nice post. I have always felt that the reason that Snape was so outraged by the fact that Harry called him a coward was that he had just killed the one man that trusted him. It just seems to make sense that it was part of Dumbledore's plan and that Snape had to go along with it, which would make it an act of amazing courage. All along he had been taking more risks than anyone in the order and now nobody would ever know it.

However, if we look at it in an alternate light, under the Snape is out for himself only theory, we can see an alternate motivation for this reaction. Snape has been tormented all of his life. He has always been made to feel inferior. He has used this as motivation to be the most powerful wizard of all time. He never again wants to be looked down upon. He wants to rule all. If this is true, and Snape has hoodwinked both Dumbledore and Voldemort, we can see that he has taken great personal risk. It would take courage beyond the understanding of most of the characters in these books to pull off what he had pulled off. To be called a coward, by Harry no less, would be enough to make him flip his lid.

As far as Dumbledore's mistake, I think that Dumbledore may not know how his decisions immediately affect things, but in the long run he has faith that they will work out. I have said before that even though Snape's motivations could be selfish, the results of his actions may end up creating something positive. I previously mentioned Gollum as a perfect example of this type of character. Although they are fighting against the cause of good, they end up being essential to victory over evil without realizing it. In this way, Dumbledore's mistake could be erased and we could see that he possibly knew all along that things would come out right.

Regardless of whether Snape is good or bad, he has to be a protector of Harry. He knows the prophecy and he knows that he cannot destroy Voldemort without Harry. Perhaps Dumbledore knows this and uses it to his advantage. If you think about it that way, it may not be a mistake at all.

I also think that the message of friendship will still be very strong in the 7th book, regardless of whether Snape is good or bad. It has always been most evident amongst Harry, Ron and Hermione. It will again be carried through by their relationships. The fact that Dumbledore made a mistake with Snape will not change them, in fact it will only bring them closer together. They now have only themselves to count on. I believe that in the end, Snape will unwittingly bring about Voldemort's demise, along with his own. Harry definitely needs help.

Thanks, vulturemort I do try - I'm pretty indefatigable in the defence of poor old maligned Severus

As I said, I am coming around to the idea that possibly Snape is in this for himself - to a degree (maybe a 60/40 split towards the good ) - and that would still fit within the boundaries of his apparent actions, i.e. getting bent out of shape because he's called a coward, protecting Harry etc.

There's one other thing that occured to me too last night as I was lying in my nice hot bubble bath () - that he hexed Flitwick. I wondered about that - why he thought it was necessary to hex the poor little chap at all. But then I thought, why didn't he kill him? He could have. So why didn't he? I saw a few possibilities.

1. That he is really evil, but has to maintain his cover for Dumbledore's sake. He didn't know what Dumbledore wanted him for, but he had to get Flitwick out of the way. For what reason? Who knows. Was Flitwick trying to stop him from doing something? Why were they even in the office when they were supposed to be patrolling the corridors?

2. That he really is evil, but knows that everything is shot to...the hot place...and so has nothing to lose. So he hexes everyone out of the way to off Dumbledore and rejoin the Dark Lord once and for all. So why hex and not kill? Don't know.... Mmmm....

3. That he really is innocent, but he has to maintain his cover for Voldemort's sake. He knows what Dumbledore wants, and doesn't want Flitwick interferring. So he hexes him because it's quicker than explaining.

Any ideas?

We already know that Snape didn't corrupt those he was put in charge of. I am almost positive that Snape was not on Voldemort's side. There are too many clues to the contrary. The only options are that he was on the side of the Order or that he was on nobody's side. If Snape is out to get ultimate power, then he would have no reason to try to get his students into the Death Eaters. He is simply biding his time and looking for an opportunity to kill Dumbledore. It would be very unwise for him to cause any trouble while he was in Dumbledore's good graces. It would eventually come back to Dumbledore and the whole thing would be over. He would have to be very calm, cool, and collected in order to get what he wants. We know that these are qualities that Snape has.

As far Gollum is concerned, there are some interesting comparisons that could be made. I'll try to keep this very short and sweet, so this is the ultra condensed story. Gollum is neither on the side of good or the side of evil. All that concerns him is getting the ring of power. Frodo (the good guy) has the ring and plans to destroy it, which in turn will destroy Sauron (the bad guy). Gollum helps guide Frodo to Mount Doom so that he can destroy the ring, simply because he needs time to figure out how to get the ring for himself. Mount Doom is a volcano that is the only place that the ring can be destroyed. In the end he gets the ring, but in his excitement, he falls into the volcano and dies. This destroys the ring and defeats the bad guys. So, without being on either side, he affects the outcome in the favor of the good guys. I think it is possible that Snape could be a similar character.

If Dumbledore makes a mistake out of good faith and love, which ends up causing the end of Voldemort, the mistake can be forgiven. The only person hurt by the whole thing would be Dumbledore, and we know that he is willing to sacrifice himself if it helps the cause. Perhaps Dumbledore has another prophecy that we don't know about that gives him evidence of this. I don't know. I'm just throwing all of this out there as a counter point to the Snape is good theory.

It would be too much of a letdown if Dumbledore, who represents the old, wise man in Harry's heroic journey, turned out to make a horribly foolish mistake. Dumbledore has always had eccentric ideas, but they have always turned out right in the end.
I think that there are possible parallels between Tom Riddle's approach to Dumbledore for a teaching position and Severus Snape's approach. Both wanted to be the D.A.D.A. teacher, and both had a history with the Dark Arts. Dumbledore saw right through Tom, and he had an annoyingly (from Voldemort's point of view) accurate knowledge that his fellow Death Eaters (Nott, Rosier, Mulciber, and Dolohov) were waiting for Voldemort at the Hog's Head.
Say if Snape were really on Voldemort's side. Then he would probably the second most evil and clever wizard during that time. Wouldn't Dumbledore be able to see through that as well? Yes, I know, I know, Dumbledore can also make mistakes, but as I have stated previously before, he would not make such a gamble for the lives and safety of his students. I do not think he would ever make a mistake where his students are involved.