At the end of HBP when Ginny and Harry told everybody that DD was dead lupin lost control and harry didn't ask him why because he thought it was too personal. So what do you guys think???

It was probably because Dumbledore died. I can't think of anyone in the room at the time, (besides Harry) who Dumbledore had done more for.

Well, Lupin seemed very calm before he knew that Dumbledore died, so he obviously lost controll because dumbledore "supposedly died". I mean, Dumbledore was like the good sides leader, so who wouldnt be really sad?

Onthe side that DD is still alive, Lupin could have reacted the way he did in order to throw off suspisions that DD was not really dead. If Lupin knew about DD's plans (if he is really alive) than actin gnormal may have alerted some of the other teachers and students. For instance, didn't HArry question Slughorn and Hagrids remarks when they saw him dead, because they weren't overly grieved.

It seems to me that everyone sort of broke down at the news of DD's death. Rowling uses the word lose control to describe Lupin, but what he did wasn't any different from what anyone else in the room did, it's just described different. So I don't think there is anything special about it.

I think Lupin's reaction was a bit out of anger. You know the five stages of grief? I they're denial, anger, bargaining (i think there are WAY too many in the fandom that are stuck on this one), depression, and acceptance, not necessarily in that order, and I think Lupin was angry. The words "lost control" are significant because as a werewolf (and without the Wolfsbane Potion) Lupin really does lose control, but normally, he is quite a calm, cool character. He's relaxed, he takes everything in stride, but Dumbledore's death (at the hands of Snape, no less) is so shocking that is causes Lupin to "lose control" the way he does during his full moon transformation. Not that he transforms, but his mental state is similar.

I think that Hagrid's response in GOF helps put some perspective on this question. Hagrid says, "As long as we have him (being Dumbledore), I'm not too worried". I think that DD did so much Lupin and also that Lupin shares the same belief, that DD's death means that everything changes for the worst shows why he lost control.

Why shouldn't Lupin lose control? A person that did so much for him just died. If I was in Lupin's place, my reaction would have been far worse. I know that Lupin is always in control of his emotions, always calm and fair, but I think that this was just too much.

Yeah, I think its pretty obvious why he "lost control" I mean. Dumbledore let him into hogwarts, and did some much to hide the fact that he was a were wolf and all. AND he got Lupin his job, so its obvious why he lost control.

sorry if this wasnt the reacion you were expecting but yeah, what did you want to hear? Dumbledore was Lupins father?

Yeah thats what i thought too. I was just making sure and thanks for your replies!!

Well, obviously Lupin and Dumbledore were close. Not only as student/teacher but both as members of the Order. And I think such a big deal was made over it not because Dumbledore is secretely Remus's father or anything of the like. I think it was simply made dramatic to show that Remus really cared for Dumbledore, and that his death threw the normally calm and collected Lupin off of his feet.

He also knew that the loss was a LARGE loss for the 'good' side.

Before I even start my rant - I am going to share many views of my "lost control" and why it could have happened. I must state that I personally love JKR's character of Remus Lupin, and I think there's more to this man than meets the eye.

1. Let me explain - we first met his as one person in PoA, (which I must say, being a supernatural lover, my opinion that JKR didn't hide the fact he was a werewolf to well.) Because I am a werewolf lover (and also protest JKR's partake on them) I have read many stories of werewolves. Please tell me if I sound idiotic with this. In my favorite take on werewolves is the one where they can change at will, but are forced to change on the full moon - now, we don't nessicerally know if that is the case for our friend Mr. Moony, but lets pretend it is. He could have stayed human for a while (therefor his wolf side wants to come out) and this strong of an emotion, he probably had to fight to control a change that could have happened.

2. Now if this isn't the case, it may be what everyone else has said, over and over again.

3. Being what we know he may be, and what people think. (Only changing on full moons) It could be close to a full moon? Wolfsbane is a power thing my friends. In ways, it is close to adrenilne. It surges when we get emotional - hence wolfsbane. It could have started acting up, therefore not only being an emotional thing for him; but alas, maybe physical pain?

Tell me if you agree with anyone of my arguments. I would like to agree with option three, it's my best thought out one. Sorry if this doesn't make sense to anyone but me, just took my S.A.T. and I feel like I can tilt my head to one side and my brain will pour out my ear.

~ Mischief Managed ~

I like Michief's point of view on this topic.

A. Its different than what EVERYONE has been repeating over and over again.

B. It makes sense that the wolf inside him can show its emotion more than just on the full moon.

sooooo kudos to Mischief (yay)

One more thing~~~

Thanks for the support. Testing should die, it falls right into the legions of the Dark Lord *cough* He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named. *shift eyes* I'm not a DE I'm a DA!!

Anyways, yes, brought forth my werewolf obsession, I am going to believe my theory that the wolf inside him was playing with his emotions through either adrenilne or wolfsbane. It just makes sense. I mean, sure, DD was really close and of course that had a huge percent to do with it, but also, I can't picture Remus Lupin "losing control" in front of people - it's just un-lupinish. It must have something to do with the wolfsbane.

he cares about him and he helped him when he was at school and he has lots of people in his life that have already died(james lily sirus). he could also mean that harry isn't really safe with out him.

Being new myself, I know how you feel about posting Lilnikkijr, but that was the SAME EXACT thing that everyone else said.

Where is the individuality in that? Anyways, come on people, give me opinion on my theories above, good, bad? Stupid, reduculos, awesome, realistic? What?

xOx Mischief Managed xOx

Hiya xOxMescheif_ManagedxOx!

PLease try to be a little more respectful with other members, wether they are new or not. They're opinions are just as valuable as everybody else's. And please be a little more patient with other members if they don't give straight answers to your posts, their discussion may be headed somewhere else than where you'd planed.

Also, could you please reduce the pictures in your signature? The SPELL badge and the Sirius siggie add up to 200 pixels in height, and the maximum allowed is 150.

If you ever need anything, you know where to find us Prefects and the Mods.

Thanks

Yes, sorry. I've been studying for my SAT for a long time, and finally got them over with! w00t w00t! Anyways, sorry Hallia, I have been on edge all week (seems like and opertune time for me to join eh??)

Anyways. I am still supporting my wolfsbane ideas. I have a map here (not a real one, a lit map) and it corrosponds to what I have already said. Please tell me which of the three you think are more realistic to Remus's case.

xOx Mischeif Managed xOx

P.S. I love how in the books he refured to as Lupin, and most of us call him Remus. (Or atleast I do, I hate calling him Lupin - my mum has Lupus disease and it's way to close for comfort Lupin-Lupus)

I guess it was because Dumbledore gave him a school and a home even though he knew he was a werewolf and also gave him a job. He was undistracteed this time unlike when Sirius died and he was fighting, and if he broke down then he would be killed.

I really think it's just because of his grief. Dumbledore had been a very good friend to Remus. No other wizard had done so much for him aside from his friends. I'm sure it was a rather hard thing for him.

Yes, Lupin did have a particularly extreme reaction to the news of Dumbledore's death, didn't he? Almost as if he'd lost a relative or something...

Well, Dumbledore was one of the kindest people to him, and obviously the news would be shocking. It could also be that Lupin thought that Harry of the rest of the OotP wouldn't have a chance of killing Voldemort if Dumbledore was gone. It could be to Lupin that all hope had vanished for any of them.

Ok, this might be a little bit but oh well...
I don't think werewolves can change at will, because then Greyback would've attacked many more people. Think back to what Lupin said in HBP page 335 American edition:

"Yes. My father had offended him. I did not know, for a very long time, the identity of the werewolf who had attacked me; I even felt pity for him, thinking that he had had no control, knowing by then how it felt to transform. But Greyback is not like that. At the full moon, he positions himself close to victims, ensuring that he is near enough to strike. He plans it all. And this is the man Voldemort is using to marshal the werewolves. I cannot pretend that my particular brand of reasoned argument is making much headway against Greyback's insistence that we werewolves deserve blood, that we ought to revenge ourselves on normal people."

If werewolves could change at will, Greyback wouldn't need to position himself close to victims at the full moon, he could just change and bite them any time.

Yes, tennismasters2, exactly.

If you want to see a bit more of my theory about werewolves, I'm writing it into my fanfic, which also deals with Fenrir's background and Remus Lupin's early years (before he went to school), and how everything is all really connected to things that happened long before Remus was born. The link is in my signature.

I also believe that Remus Lupin's grief at hearing about Dumbledore's death stems from the pivotal role that Dumbledore has played in his life. Without Dumbledore he would have been an outcast like the other werewolves. Without Dumbledore he would not have been able to go to school. It is fair to assume that he had hopes for Dumbledore to champion the cause of the werewolves if and when Voldemort gets defeated, and that he now doubts that the werewolves will ever get a fair deal now that Dumbledore is no longer there.

Because without DD he wouldn't of been able to go to school, have the friends he did, so much of has made his life a life goes back to Dumbledore. He was a mentor of his, just like Harry.

Lupin could also be brought back to losing James, Lily, Sirius and Peter. His group of friends from school exists no longer. DD cut him a lot of slack when he was in school. It is likely that they had a lot of contact with DD checking on him. Lupin has also gotten quite close to Harry and so he could be mad that another one of Harry's mentors / protectors, etc. is lost (note: I also agree that DD is not dead...). For Lupin, the few people that knew his secret and accepted him anyway are now gone. That, in itself, is enough to make anyone lose control...

[This is Meschief Managed, I just lost my password to my last account]

I never said that JKR werewolves could change at will. I said that in other werewolf stories the werewolves could change form at will. I know for fact this is not JKR's werewolves, but my theory stemmed off that idea. The very idea that a werewolf has wolfsbane coursing through him at all times, and that he lives his life with this always hanging off his emotions.

~ Mischeif Managed (Maker) whatever.

dumbledore gave everyone so much and when everyone found out that he died everyone was very sad but lupin on the otherhand...

well for one i think it is because he was a werewolf and a partial outcast from the others at the time when he can to school and dumbledore helped by putting the whomping willow there so that when he transformed he could go there for protection. i also believe that dumbledore gave him a home at hogwarts like he did everyone else. he made lupin accpeted not of what he was but who he was and i think lupin was grateful fro that. dumbledore was a great person and everyone in that room had reasons fro reacting the way they did. these are just some of the facts and reasons why i think lupin reacted the way he did.

i think he is hidin something but then again i dunno why would he do that then

Hello talli_tastik!

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Happy Posting!!

Firstly, I get the impression that Lupin hides his emotions quite alot, and is actualy very emotional. Therefore, when DD dies--and I believe he's dead I mean come on this isn't a bloody soap opera! What's he going to do, walk through the door at grimmauld place and go 'Ha Ha! Fool'd y'all!'--he is unable to control his emotions--after, like, almost all his close friends have died, so it just topples all onto him--and it seems as such a big shock to us that what it really is.

I hope you understand what I just wrote because I just confused myself.

thoughi agree with baz on the fact that this isnt a soap opera i think that it is a little odd i mean lupin just excepted it when serious died! he was calm and he just took it for what it was he didnt loose control he just was almost fine with it which is further wierd i mean serious was one of his best frends and to find out that he was innocent and alive would be huge for him ya know to have an alli back on his side again sounless something happened between them either just prior to his going to azkaban or post escape then lupin should have heart broken over the los of his frend he should have been loosing it then and personally i dont buy the he was being strong for harry mumbo jumbo he was emotionless he was indiferent which makes me wander where he was hiding emotions or if one of the two is alive because lupin should have had a similar reaction at both deaths but that is a bit off topic ok the questions we need to ask are a. did something happen between remus and lupin? b. when did it happen? c. during which incodent did lupin hide his emotions? and finally d. why did he hide his emotions? im not sure but his two different reactions seem to me opposit and that amaizes me that two similar events can have the same effect on the same man. it makes no sence! and also if he really lost controll wouldnt he have done magic without meaning to? yea he has good controll over himself but if he was that shocked then he probably should have lost controll of his power!


again the questions

A. did something happen between remus and serious?

B.when did it happen?

C. during which incodent did lupin hide his emotions?

D. why did he hid his emotions?


what do you think???

Wait, from what I remember lupin wasn't as calm as you say he was when sirius died. He was pale, his voice was breaking as though he was going to cry, "every word seemed to be causing him pain" and besides Harry runs off taking us with him! Lupin might have broken down when DD had the DE all rounded up, or maybe when Lupin got back to HQ or wherever his home is he might have thrown a breakdown. We didn't see it, though. It was a gap/silence JK put in. It seems to me that Lupin was in great mental anguish, and besides he can't just lose it in the Dept of Myst.

I think Lupin lost control at the end of HBP because he might have been feeling different too. Maybe Lupin was in a state of shock at the end of OoTP and in HBP he went 'it's safe, I can break down now'.

yes but it seems to me that in the depmt o myserys that lupin would have been in a worse state yes his voice was breaking and he was pale but shouldnt he have had just a minute of loss of controll because he was pretty much on top of harry as soon as serious died he was right there it seems to me that lupin even though he is wise should have had at least some denial about serious because noone is that in controll of themself when one of there best frends dies weather it is safe to breakdown or not

Lupin could have "lost control" simply because he was grieving as many here have said, or because he had been given so much by DD or simply because he is so used to holding emotions in that they just burst out. Who can say for sure, but look at it this way if you were him when it is announced that DD is dead how would you react? I doubt any of you would be like, "meh, oh well what a shame"; I imagine you would be a bit distraught.

I say it's different reaction for a differtn situation. Sirius died, he lost a friend. DD died, they've almost lost the battle.

i think that our dear old lupin knows more than he's letting on, Whatever happened on that dreadful night Lupin was in on it. I think he reacted that way because it didnt go quite the way DD had planned. I dont know, i just know that he knows something, and he's more upset from what he knows and isnt sharing. does that make sense?

Well, hmm lets think about this, Lupin, a werewolf, was but as a kid, has to go through a painful transformation turning to werewolf, to human every full moon, Dont you guys think you'd get some emotion built up? Especially working for Fenrir.

Proberly because Dumbledore had just died and that Dumbledore helped out at when he was at school.
Because when he was a werewolf dumbledore made it possible for him to go to school.
They must have formed a close bond.

I think that Lupin lost control because when he found out what had happened to Dumbledore it upset him greatly. It was because of Dumbledore that Lupin was still able to attend Hogwarts during his school days, DD provided Lupin's hideout in the Whomping Willow, and also DD gave Lupin a job at school. So after Lupin learned of DD's demise he completely lost it....

Question: when he collapsed into a chair and put his hand over his face, do you think he was crying, trying not to cry or was just cradling his head in anguish at the situation?

I just want to know that.

Not to sound arrogant, I thought it was pretty straight foward about why he lost control:DUMBLEDORE DIED!!! Might I add that, even though he collapsed into a chair and put his hands over his face, McGonogall and Pomfrey almost fainted and the rest were shocked beyond anything.

Is this such an issue because Lupin is such a reserved and ...er...emotionally controlled person and him 'losing control' is so out of character? because i don't think it is. it just seems like a...er...Lupiny thing to do.

(Delurking Remus fangirl here. Hi! Sorry to delurk with what's basically a major essay, but I think this is a fascinating subject and deserves focus. Hope it's okay!)

Yes, I think for many it seems ... if not "out of character," then at least rather shocking to see such an emotional reaction from a man as reserved and seemingly unflappable as Remus. Especially since Harry himself is taken aback, and of course we see everything from his perspective.

As far as why Remus reacts this way, I won't expound on the obviously accurate explanations that others have stated; Dumbledore's importance to the cause is a given, and more pertinent is Remus's obvious love and loyalty towards his former headmaster/protector.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned in detail here is the betrayal element. Look at history through Remus's perspective. Poor Remus has suffered through a lot of shattered trust in his life. First was Sirius's apparent betrayal leading to the deaths of the Potters and seemingly Peter back in 1981. (Actually, one could make a case -- I certainly would -- that Sirius actually betrayed Remus even earlier, back in school when he told Snape how to get to the Whomping Willow tunnel. But I'll set this aside for now, because although *I* think it was a betrayal, Remus's dialogue in PoA doesn't reveal his internal feelings on the so-called "prank." Maybe he didn't feel betrayed. Hard to believe, but okay.)

Then, thirteen years later, Remus's beliefs were shaken again when it turns out Peter was the traitor after all. Almost immediately after this discovery, Snape reveals Remus's secret to the Slytherins shortly thereafter, and while this may not seem all that surprising (given the emnity between the two), Remus had obviously trusted Severus -- he had to, of course -- throughout the course of the schoolyear.

Despite this, Remus seems to have trusted Dumbledore's assertion that Snape was on their side. In all their interactions as adults that we see, Remus is unfailingly polite, if not friendly, to Severus, trying to remain objective despite the taunts Snape flung his and Sirius's way during PoA. Even after Snape makes it impossible for Remus to stay as a professor, Remus continues to swallow whatever his own personal feelings are.

Why does he do this? Well, okay, one reason might be that Remus knows it seems to **** Snape off to have a werewolf presume to be gentlemanly to him. Another is surely that Remus simply is a gentleman, and he treats others well in general. A third reason is undoubtedly lingering guilt feelings over his inability to control James/Sirius's bullying as a child.

But I'd say the major reason he shows little antipathy towards Snape is due to a solid belief that Dumbledore Knows Best. For Remus, if Dumbledore trusts Snape -- and DD shows this continually, as we know -- Snape must be trustworthy. Q.E.D.

As time went on and he started his career as a spy for the Order, Remus kinda had to believe Dumbledore Knows Best. He's agreed to enter his own worst nightmare -- living with the ferals as a spy -- on Dumbledore's say-so. If he allows himself to doubt Dumbledore's judgment, Remus could find himself realizing that DD's sending him into a year of hell with Grayback et al. was a horrific mistake. Remember how weak, exhausted and miserable (and as close to embittered as he gets) Remus is due to the spying mission? He's a remarkably strong man, far stronger than I think many give him credit for due to his mild demeanor, but at this point I'd imagine the main thing keeping him going is his certainty in Dumbledore's judgment and decision-making ability. He must be hanging onto this belief with all his might, or I'd imagine he'd snap completely.

So that's where we are when Remus hears not just that Dumbledore is dead, but that Snape killed him. A gutwrenching betrayal, one that destroys every precept Remus has believed in. Again.

How the heck could he not break down at this point? After a lifetime of losses and betrayals, he had to let loose with his grief and anger. Thank the gods that he ended up holding Tonks's hand at the end... Remus deserves to have someone help him through this.

Well, that's "all" I have. Sorry again for the length!

Extra comments --

1) I know that even now, there's the possibility that Snape could have been following DD's orders in killing him. I'm actually of that mind myself, or at least I'm about 60% convinced of this theory. But like the Whomping Willow incident, I set that to one side for the purposes of the essay. After all, I'm looking at this through Remus-tinged lenses, and what matters is how Remus would be assessing this situation.

2) None of this even includes the huge loss Remus suffered when Sirius went through the Veil. He was clearly affected by the loss, but shocked and somewhat numbed. Also, he had to keep Harry from diving in after Sirius, which meant keeping himself together in order to be there for Harry. Don't mistake this reserve for lack of depth of feelings, though. I'm certain that losing Sirius added to Remus's burden, but he stuffed the pain inside and threw himself into his spy work. When Harry revealed Dumbledore's death, it was simply the last in a massive mountain of straws already burdening poor Remus's back.

3) And how much more effective this breakdown is, coming from Remus Lupin! JKR's choice here was brilliant.

I totally agree that guilt plays a part in the loss of Lupins control. DD was probably one of the honest people that he knew and now he has gone and this was a little while after sirius was killed. He must be in bits!

A wild theory could be that DD knew about Malfoys plan as DD explains to Malfoy how he knew about the attempts to kill him. Perhaps snape told DD about the unbreakable vow he made and DD told snape to kill him. To save snape and draco. Now maybe lupin was told about the plan but didnt want DD to go through with it and at this point he realises that DD has gone through with the plan and is therefore dead.

Bit of a wild theory but what do u think?

Lupin was definitely going through major emotional stress pertaining mainly to Sirius, Tonks, and Dumbledore, so I don't think his breakdown was at all unwarranted. I enjoyed reading your essay, choie, as there was not a single bit that I did not agree with and go 'Hey! That’s right!’ Additionally, snape fan, that is a great connection you have made and I like that idea as it explains quite a bit...Although I don't completely understand your theory's first sentence, I do still agree with you on Lupin's further cause for sorrow. (At least until persuaded differently )

Sorry ill explain my theorys first sentence:

The cursed necklace and the poisoned butterbeer was supposed to get to DD and malfoy sent it. So perhaps DD suspected malfoy long before DD was attacked by him. So therefore with the unbreakable vow made by snape. DD could have know what voldemort was planning.

thats wat i think i meant

Ahhh, yes that's a good point because Dumbledore did say that he knew about the attempts and their purpose and such...he just never specified how he knew.

Exactly and so therefore it does seem to make the theory slightly possible however it is still more likely that Lupin lost control as he was overcome by grief as well as the betrayal of snape.

It was really interesting to read that the werewolf can voluntarily change over. I was unaware that it was something that they could do, but now makes total sense because at the last battle, I remember the evil werewolf who infected Lupin (and whose name completely escapes me right now) seemed to be growling instead of talking. Maybe that was just my imagination putting sounds and voices to text, but was he "partially transformed" at the time of the attacks? So would extreme emotion trigger a transformation in Lupin such as news of DD's death? Is this similar to what Bellatrix tells Harry in the MoM when she says "you really have to mean it" in order to perform an Unforgivable Curse? That one can learn to channel raw emotion like that to draw out the Unforgivable or the werewolf in us?

Dumbeldore brought lupin to school even though he was a were wolf and did many things to help luping and hence lupin has a lot of respect for dumbeldore.Even though lupin is normally calm,the thought of having lost dumbeldore just was too much for him

maybe because DD was the on who gave hope to everyone of winning the war against evil. He was the one that pushed on the order of the phoenix. He was the one with the most knowledge of the subject ( or was he???). Anyone freaks out in a situation like that!

besides, he was one of the few people that trusted and encouraged Lupin. He even gave him a job at school and all.