This is a bit long but try to bear with me. As we all know the Half blood prince (Snape) invented the levicorpus spell- "Sitting up in bed, Harry turned the book sideways so as to examine more closely the scribbled instructions for a spell that seemed to have caused the Prince some trouble. There were many corossings-out and alteration, but finally, crammed into a corner of the page, the scribble: Levicorpus (nvbl). from here we see he must of invented it and he didn't just see it somewhere else because he was making corrections. Now a few chapters later Harry was asking Lupin if he knew anything about the HBP and Harry said he invented the spell levicorpus. then Lupin said " Oh, that one had a great vogue during my time at Hogwarts." then Harry said " My dad used it, I saw him in the Pensieve, he used it on Snape. Now my question is, if Snape invented it in his advanced potion making book - which was in his 6th year, how could James of used it in his fifth year?(we know James used it in his fifth year because they were taking their OWLs) I don't think you can say that maybe Snape skipped a grade because we don't see anywhere else that you can skip in Hogwarts, what do you guys think?

Well, we can assume the book itself belonged to Snape's mother before Snape used it.

If that is the case, it was in Snape's house his whole life.

At any point he could have picked it up and looked through it. We know that Snape always had his nose in a book, so he wouldn't have to be a sixth year to write in a sixth year book. You see what I am saying? Maybe he found the book when he was 14 and started studying it, and then started inventing his own material in it.

There is also the possibility that Snape did not invent the spell, but rather his mother did, if in fact (as Hermione believes) the book belonged to her. The moniker "Half-Blood Prince" may certainly have belonged to Snape, but that doesn't mean everything inside the book did.

I must agree with Czar, I think that the original owner of the book (his mother was the half blood prince - even though snape said he was, he was probably just refferring tho the fact that it was his book) was the one who invented the spell. We know that for Snape to get it it would have been a "hand me down". She probably invented them and Sanpe probably perfected them. His mother invented that one in perticular would make sense, because even if it was snape who made it in his earlier days, why would James know about it, i don't think Snape woul dtell him of his newly created spell. i think it makes sense that his motehr created Levicorpus and that is why it was so popular inLupin's day, because it had been around for a while.

In addition, I do however, beleive that Snape "took a page from his motehrs book" and started to create spells to, like septaseprum. He was just finishing what hi mother started sort of speak.

I don't see how or why you would think the book belonged to Snapes mother... he could have easilly just bought the book himself

I agree. There is no reason to believe that the book ever belonged to Snape's mother. Look at the Weasley family: all the children go and buy books every year, they never get Mr. & Mrs. Weasley's (or even Bill, Charlie, or Percy's) old hand-me-down books. They buy used copies in Diagon alley (see, e.g., their trip to Diagon Alley in book 2, and the description of Ginny's newly purchased used book which Mr. Malfoy sticks Riddle's diary in). Thus, even though the date in the book is from before Snape's time as a student, he most probably simply bought it used. Hermione never says that the book belonged to Eileen Prince; simply that she was right that the title "Half Blood Prince" referred to the last name and not a royal title. Snape's mom could not have been the Half Blood Prince, because--as far as we know--she was full blood.

Nope, I think we have to conclude: 1) Snape invented the spell. 2) Assuming there isn't an unmentioned explanation, such as this potions book used to be used for 5th years, or that Snape had skipped a grade (perhaps just in potions), this is a simlpe inconsistency by JKR. Well spotted, Moviesareruininbooks.

Hm.. I was under the impression that it was Snape's Mother's book as well, but I don't think she wrote the notes. I'm pretty sure Severus did that, but just because he wrote it in the book doesn't mean he invented it, sure he made corrections to the potions and possibly invented some of the spells he wrote in there, but some of it may have been found information as well, stuff from books in the restricted section, stuff he learned through watching LV or the Death eaters, maybe even learned it because James did it to him and he wanted to know what it was and then wrote it in his book.

I'm also pretty sure that the Weasley's did use hand me down books, didn't Ron say in first year that ALL his stuff was hand me downs? His robes, his rat, his wand, his books... I think they buy new (used copies of) books when the teacher changes the list, (like with Lockhart, they all needed the same books even though they were in different years)

Let's see, Eileen PRINCE, the half blood PRINCE, wow, these thing seem to click somehow huh. Ok, so maybe she may not have invented them, but I highly doubt that JK made a time line error, blaming her means a lack of imagination on the readers part. No there is a purpose for the book to have spells that were used by snape and everyone else. He invented them becasue in HBP he says something like Potter, using my own spells agaisnt me, yes I am the HBP. So they are his alright, at what point in i=his life he created them, no one can be sure. I believe that the book did belong to his mother, or atleast belong to someone else who was knowledgeable in potions (i think anyway). But if he bought it used, then all the spells are either his, or the shopkeeper did a poor job making sure none of the books had any dark magic in them. However, the hand me down on efits better, then he could have created the spell in his younger years, or atleast learned a spell that was similar and my changing the pronunciation and spelling he created an even more powerful version of the spell.

#1 Devox, Snape for sure invented the spells b/c he says at end of 6th book, "how dare you use my own spells against me, it is I the HBP" (not sure if i got quote excatly right)- so he obviously invented em him self
#2 Padfoot313 u write - [QUOTE]I think this is an unjust, incorrect and absurb conclusion, because you can't conclude anything without hard and efficient evidence. (I dont know how to put in blue quote) So speaking of hard evidence, what hard evidence do U have that the book was Snapes mother?

i knw hiddenhorcrux said this last thign also but i just wanted to say it again......

also, there is the fact that all the notes in the potions book are in 'small cramped writing'. If you look back in other Harry Potter books (namely in the OotP penseive flashback, when young snape is writing in his OWL exam) - they refer to snape's writing in the exact same way. As soon as I read that the half blood prince's handwriting was 'small and cramped', I immediately assumed that it would have to be Snape.
So I think that all the notes in the potions book are definitely Snape's. I don't think that he was perfecting his mother's spells, because there is only one style of handwriting throughout the book. However, Snape may have been perfecting spells his mother made that weren't necessarily written in that book - but my gut feeling is that Snape created those dark spells. JKR has spent a lot of time building his character to have a lot of mystery surrounding his history - and I wouldn't be surprised if these 'levicorpus' and 'sectumsempra' spells he created are a HUGE part of starting to understand more about his character. I don't think that JKR would have dedicated a massive portion of HBP to Snape and the Potions book, if it were not an important part of the last book - of which we can be certain to find out a lot more about snape.
I think this is a really good topic and we should be discussing it more and bringing up more theories on why James was using it, and how that particular spell came about to be such a fad at that time, if snape did indeed invent it. Good question!

I think that Snape got the book somehow before 6th year. It could be possible that he found it in his house, but i think that it was Snape that invented the spell and definetely not his mom.

Ummmm..... Maybe as many have said the book belonged to Mrs Snape(me haha joking) Snapes mummy. However remember Snape is very advanced in potion making so maybe he got it off Slughorn or maybe he bought it himelf just for "fun" like Hermione does.

why do you assume that the spell was made during Snape's 6th Year at Hogwarts?? He could have invented it prior to that year! Did it say in the book that it was made when Snape was a Sixth Year???


Anyway, I would like to know how James learned the spell in the first place, if Snape invented it!! Snape must have used it on somebody and gotten into big trouble! from there, everyone must have found out sounds like a juicey story hahaha





_daviD

We can only speculate on how the spell became all the rage at Hogwarts, but I would suspect that it was something along the lines of the following: Snape invented the spell (maybe around his third or fourth year, I'll guess at) and at one point used it on somebody, probably one of the Marauders. It was probably in a place and time where a number of other people could see it, and many probably then inquired Snape about the spell. He's invented it, so he's proud of it, and he wants to impress them with this, so he tells them. From there, it could spread quite easily. There's no basis to believe that this is how it happened, but it could have been, and it's pretty plausible, I think. Either way, it's not really all that important as far as information goes, so we probably will never know unless somebody asks JKR directly about it.

In any case, the spell had to have been made before the fifth year, of course, because that's when James used the spell on Snape. My best guess is that he invented it in his fourth year, since that would give plenty of time for him to have the knowledge to be able to invent such a spell while also giving plenty of time for the spell to become known and used by others beside Snape.

I believe that the book was originally Snape's mother's, as this is pretty strongly implied (if not flat-out determined, I can't really remember properly) in the book. Remember, the book was originally published around the time that Snape's mother would have been going to Hogwarts, and Hermione gives us the scoop on her. It was probably her book, which would explain how and why Snape could have had a copy of a sixth year potion book before his sixth year. Sure, he could have just bought himself a copy early, but I think it more likely that when it came time for Snape to go to Hogwarts, he was given his mother's old books, so that he could find his required books among them. I think that this is the most plausible explanation (maybe not the only one possible, but I think it makes the most sense).

Wasn't Voldemort at Hogwarts 50 Yrs. ago? Could that book be Tom Riddles? Eileen Prince could have been in class with Tom and worked on spells and potions together. Became friends. Became lovers. Eileen Prince I think was pregnant before she married Tobias Snape because shortly after they were married Hermonie said one of the old prophets said she gave birth and then Harry interrupts her and says to a "murderer". And Hermonie never finishes her thought.

Could Tom Riddle be Snapes "real" father? Perhaps that is why Tobias Snape treated Eileen and Snape so bad. He found out the child was not his. Eileen taught the son of Tom Riddle (Snape) magic before he went to school. Perhaps that is why Snape is Voldemorts match because he is his son.

My thought is that it was passed down from his mum. she might have started inventing the spell then he finally completed it. we know that he was exetremely obsorbed in his work so he could have done all this before fifth year.

While I was reading HBP, I got the feeling the scribblings in the book were done during class, just like many of us did ourselves. Seems implied to me he invented the spell during 6th year potions class instead of paying attention (even though that conflicts with the 5th year OWL use)

About the scribbling, didn't one of the trio say that is resembles female writing or something. I'm not sure right now, but I think they did and that is why I think the book belong to Eileen first.

Nice to hear you agree with me, Padfoot313.
Anyway, there are other spells in the book too, possibly ones that Harry hasn't spotted yet.
Sectumsempra is a special case. I suspect that Severus Snape invented it and this spell took some time to perfect, and that we saw a less deadly forerunner of it when Severus used it on James in the scene of "Snape's Worst Memory".

im going to say that snape could easily picked up the book if it belonged to eileen prince.as J.K.R. says it was old and tattered but also snape would not have known to ask harry for his advanced potions book.and also how did james potter know the spell,snape didnt run around shooting the spell everywhere.or did he?

I think I have the answer.

Snape did NOT invent the spell, because of the timing that Moviesareruininbooks pointed out. It IS his writing in the book though.

Harry said the following to Ron and Herminone after hiding the book from Snape. He was talking about sectumsepre spell, but it is just as relevant:
"The Prince only copied it out! It's not like he was advising anyone to use it! For all we know, he was making a note of something that had been used against him!"

And that's exactly what happened. Snape had the spell used against him (by James) and his notes in the book are where he tried to figure out how to do it.

well thats true. But obviously Snape didn;t make the spell up. He could have just been writing it down in year 6 because thats when he remebered it. Unless he made it up before but had to write it in later? But i dont think he would tell people about it but just use it on them.

So far in this thread I have learned three hypotheses: One, the book was actually Eileen Prince's while she was in school and she passed her knowledge down to her son who also filled the book with things he picked up.

Two, he was a book worm like Hermione and just happened to buy it years before he needed it, learned a bunch of different spells and ways to improve the potions and scribbled in the book throughout his Hogwarts career.

Or three, he bought the book, saw all the notes scribbled in it and claimed the spells as his own. Do we have a handwriting analysis to compare the handwriting in the book?

We know that the alterations to the potions are the "recipes" (for lack of a better word) for Professor Snape's classes so obviously he is comfortable with the results. Is he the type to blindly trust someone else's word that a variation works better then what history's potion masters have said? Then again, was he that smart in school that he a mere 15, 16 year old boy could completely figure out the alterations?

If he didn't make the spells (Levicorpus and Sectesempra) then who did he test them out on? How did he know Levicorpus would hang a person by their ankles or Sectesempra was a slashing curse?

On a parting thought, if he was indeed responsible for the book, why would he be as so careless to leave it lying around with other spare potion books? Why didn't he keep it locked tightly in his office? Yes, Slughorn did take over the position but Professor Snape knew in plenty of advance that he would be teaching DADA. Why didn't he take his precious (precious, oh my precious! Sorry! Out of book experience!) book with him?

Thoughts?? Or did I cover what everyone else was saying?

More than likely Snape, being a potions whiz, was probably in advanced Potions already in his fifth year. I don't think you have to be in your sixth year to to take that lesson, I think you just have to qualify for it; just like it is at school for us. So, maybe we're supposed to just assume that he was ahead in Potions, and therefore had the book and scribbled spell ideas in it.

Oh, Snape. Genius.

<3

Does it mention anywhere in the series where someone is taking Advance Potions? Fifth year is a hard year because they are taking their owls. Surely someone would have said something about noticing that so-and-so is no longer in their class but in the Advanced class. Plus if there were such a thing, wouldn't Harry have been offered the oppertunity to take the Advanced DADA his 6th year? Surely he would warrant it considering he could do a Corpeal Patronus at 13? Not to mention Hermione with her abundance of knowledge. If anyone deserves to be in an advanced class it would be her.

However, if Snape did make the spells and then write them in the book, my question still stands; why would he leave it in the potions room knowing he would no longer be teaching there? Why would he take the chance of a student finding it and using the spells?

No---what I meant was, Snape was possibly ahead a year in Potions. When I was saying 'Advanced', I guess I got that from the fact that the book is called "Advanced Potion-Making." So...since he was great at potions, perhaps he was just ahead a year.

And I'm not really sure why Snape wouldn't keep the book to himself, maybe he wanted to help other people out. Psh. I don't know. There isn't really an answer to everything, I suppose.

<3

I had to laugh out loud on your last post Sirius.James. I'm not trying to frustrate you; just to see all of the angles.

No there's not an answer for everything; that's why this is pure speculation (I've been using this word a lot today).



I love Professor Snape like any loyal Slytherin, but do you really think he is going to leave some of his most valuable work behind for another student to find it? I mean, *gasp* Harry Potter might find it! Hee hee. Seriously, I don't see him doing that. Nor do I see him as being forgetful either.

However I just think that Advanced Potion-Making was the name of the NEWT class. Perhaps there were other potion classes for sixth years that weren't for NEWT's. I don't know; I don't think the book really went into all of that.

Haha, I wasn't being serious about Snape wanting to help people out. I was just trying to say maybe there isn't an answer.

Don't get me wrong though, you're right, it is strange that he'd leave it behind like that. It's a good question to bring up.

<3

It is very likely that Snape invented the above spells (including Levicorpus and Sectumsempra). However, the question is was he the only one?

I mean during his time at Hogwarts theer might have beens several other students with an interest in spell creation. We know that the marauders were able to become animagi by their fifth year and they designed the marauders map, a fascinating magical object. Lily Evans was considered by most teachers and peers alike to be one of the most brilliant witches. Like them there might have been other students at Hogwarts who were fascinated with magical exploration and would have ventured into experimentation, either with potions or spells or both.

That may also partially explain why Levicorpus-like spells were a vogue at Hogwarts in those days. I mean it's entirely possible that several people could have come up with smilar acting spells and since they were most -likely non-verbal, the incantations (silent) may not even be the same. It could be called "crurisinverto" (my attempted latin for inverted leg or something close). Different students could have come up with their own versions that they would have passed along their friends and this is how the spells may have spread.

The handwriting part was a good clue, to suggest that it was indeed Snape who wrote them in the margins. But then he was one of many Hogwarts students who were playing around with basic arithmancy to come up with newer spells, either for pranks or for deadly assaults. After all we did witness the death eaters employing a spell similar to Levicorpus after the Quidditch world cup. They might be using their own small variants. As far as Snape's claims of James using Snape's spells against him, it could just have been said out of spite and scorn towards both Harry and James. Snape is not the most truthful person in the books after all. Didn't Tom Riddle tell Harry that Hagrid rasied werewolf cubs under his bed?

This question actually opens a whole new door; If Snape did invent these spells, and there are other people doing it, then how hard is it to invent a spell?

I can see Snape doing it, and I can see the Marauders doing it, but I also think these people are well above their peers with their intellect.

However I am concerned with the concept of 15-17 year old boys (and yes they are boys) making such advanced and dangerous spells.

So if they can make these spells and make them work, whose to say there aren't adults out there making even more dangerous and complicated spells?

I would like to think that isn't possible; if people were walking around making up their own spells then why would we need Howarts, or Beaubaxtons, or Durmstrang? They could just make up their own spells and go from there.

So I'm going to actually change my opinion and say this; I believe Professor Snape may have written those spells in the book, but I also think he found them after extensive research. I am beginning to doubt he made those spells up himself.

Thoughts anyone?

That's a distinct possibility. He could have found the spells elsewhere in some obscure texts and then noted them down since he thought them to be useful. But it is entirely possible that modified the spells he found to make them his own. This could explain why so many people knew about a Levicorpus-like spell, they may have found it in similar texts and modified it slightly to suit their interest.



If agree that's a legitimate concern, but if we recall Tom Riddle at the age of 16 was able to create a Horcrux, far more difficult and complex magic compared to inventing spells. Hermione was able to master protean charm, a NEWT level spell in her fifth year. Marauders became unsupervised animagi. There are so many examples. But for every Hermione out there, you have a Harry, a Ron, A Neville, a Malfoy etc who need proper instruction before they learn something. it is but obvious that in a population of school kids, there will be a few who are extraordinary and would like to explore beyond the curriculum. It is debatable whether they actually require instruction, but then over 90% of the students would require some instruction to harness their magical potential. Schools like Hogwarts and Beauxbatoms were built to teach children with magical essence, the means to harness and regulate their magic and that included anyone who was magical (humans at least). So to say that just because a few kids were able to learn and experiment on their own does not mean that the schools have become redundant. You don't learn just magic in these schools. They also teach you how to live in a magical community and interact with your peers and help foge connections. There may be few kids who take up home education, but then they would be few and far in between

All of these points are correct but these people were using spells advanced for their ages. They weren't making the spells themselves. Horcruxes already existed before Tom Riddle made his first one.

There were already protean charms before Hermione put on on the fake galleons.

And the Marauders were not the first to become Animagi.

My point with Professor Snape actually making up the spells is what I'm talking about. Spells that have never existed before he made them. The fact that he was 15-17 years old 'birthing' a spell for lack of a better term concerns me greatly.

If it were that easy to do, then what kind of horrific spells have the Death Eaters concocted?



And for every Hermione we have a Tom Riddle. Very dangerous. Very psychotic.

Lets not underestimate Snape here. He is obviously a very talented wizard. He is the first person Dumbledore went to when he alomst dies collecting the ring horcrux, and Snape is the first person Dumbledore asks Harry to get on their return from the cave. He is also cunning enough to apear to be working for two sides at once - Dumbledore and Voldemort. Both show a lot of trust and respect for him. I do not doubt that he had the ability to create spells such as levicorpus and sectumsempra, as well as find his own methods for potion making.

I don't doubt that he's intelligent enough to pull it off either, what I'm concerned with is if he did make those spells up, and he did rewrite the potion 'recipes' then how many other people were able to do it? Was Lucius? Was Tom Riddle? Is Hermione?

We have no evidence of anyone being able to pull this off, except Snape.

I've said it before, the concept of 15-17 year old people making up their own spells is quite scary to me.

This is why I am clinging to my hope that he didn't write them; that he found them in a book, found them interesting and wrote them in his potion book for future reference. Perhaps he had them memorized which is why the book was still at the school.

I think snape had to have inveted it

I think that this spell was a popular spell at the time, but was band by someone. I don't think Snape invented it because it doesn't say he did, and because at the end of HBP, when Harry tried to use that one spell on Snape, Snape had a tantrum and wouldn't let him, so why would he let James?? He hated James!

It is a bit strange to me that there is apparently nothing more to using a spell than working out the words to use. We have evidence in other contexts that there is more to casting a spell than simply saying the words. For instance in GoF Mad eye moody (actually crouch i guess) says that if everyone in the class pointed his/her wand at him and yelled 'AVADA KADAVERA' then he would probably not even get a bloody nose.

This concept of spell-casting makes sense to me. The implication is that there is A LOT more to it than just knowing what words to say. Presumably these nuances are only mastered later in life after years of practice.

But the way that JKR depicts spell-casting in HBP is not consistent with the depiction in GoF. Harry does not learn any nuances at all about the spell. He simply reads it. I guess we might say that Harry is a naturally gifted wizard, and that raw ability allows him to pull it off. But it really seems to me like anyone could have just read "Sectumsempra" and made it work.

I think that even though JKR makes it seem really easy to cast a spell, she doesn't make it seem easy to invent a spell like that. On the contrary, I got the impression that almost no one else could have invented that spell at that age (both levicorpus and sectrumsempra). Snape is portrayed as super-talented. Not like hermione---he is miles above hermione. The only other two wizards in my opinion who are shown as being able to invent spells at that age are voldemort and dumbledore.