And I disagree, UnknownLocket. Dumbledore was so insistant about the downfall of Voldermort that I think he would do anything he felt justifiable to bring it about. LEt us consider the timeline of things. Snape overheard part of the prophecy, he told Voldermort about it, and within 18 months James and Lily were dead. So within that time Snape realized he was wrong and switched sides. Not knowing exactly when the Karkarov hearing was ,which we saw in GoF, we learn that Snape had been working for the Order for about a year. This would imply that it was within about 6 months after hearing the prophecy that Snape had changed sides. And on many occasions Dumbledore had said that he trusted Snape completely. Now perhaps Dumbledore is such a good reader of persons that he could take Snape at his word. But Occam's Razor would suggest that the reason Dumbledore trusted Snape so fully is because Snape took an Unbreakable Vow when he changed sides seeing at it is the simplest reason to trust someone who formerly served the enemy.

And great leaders have had to make terrible decisions for the overall good before. Winston Churchhill once had to sacrifice an English town because, if he had done anything to protect it, the Germans would have known that the Allies had captured one of the decoder boxes.

If you believe that Dumbledore would sacrifice himself, as I do, then it is not hard to believe that he would ask another to do so and even ensure it.

Hats off to you Ginevra Potter (though i'd like to point out that Ginevra Potter is my nick at Hpana)
Anyway, that starting was awesome, though yes i think JK has definitely different views on the starting cos I am sure the Dursleys would not be overridden to let Ron live with them..lol..it'll be fun if they did, anyway! But, all that Ron and Hermione part was a good read. But i'd like to point out that in the first chapter we're supposedly going to also learn what Dudley heard when the Dementors attacked him and Harry. and Harry's presence is a must cos we see the story from his point of view, so he can't just apparate from there while just leaving a note.
Also, i don't know if it's a rumor, but Viktor Krum's going to be back and Hermione still likes him (well, she somewhat did in the OoP, i don't know abt HBP, though) so I'd like to see how Viktor takes Ron and Hermione (which i am not up for either.)

Interesting, but I still don't think that Dumbledore would make an Unbreakable Vow with anyone, let alone Snape.



Yeah, but I don't beleive that he would force someone to sacrifice their lives, especially for him.

I don't think DD would have made and unbreakable vow with Snape. It's not his style. He wouldn't do something to bind Snape. Though I would.
Snape could have made the unbreakable vow with Narcissa for two reasons I can think of.
1. He likes her.
2. He didn't want to blow his cover. Bellatrix doesn't like him and probably tattled and it would hve been worse for him if he hadn't. I'm not saying he's good but he doesn't want Voldemort to think he may not be truly loyal to him.
buckwert I like your idea of Harry and Ginny taking care of orphans.
I still like the idea of Hermione and Viktor.
I still hate Snape.
I still think malfloy may turn good.
Some things never change.

Who says it was by force? I'm sure Dumbledore left the choice up to Snape. All I'm saying is that it is the most logical reason how Snape could go from Death Eater to being "completely" trusted by Dumbledore is such a short period of time. The vow could be something as simple as "I will never betray the mission of the Order of the Phoenix." Dumbledore knew that he only needed Harry's word to get Harry to do something he otherwise would not. It would take more than that from Snape.

How many hear would trust Snape "completely" if all he said is that he was sorry?

But still, whether by force or not, Dumbledore still wouldn't take the vow. Sure it may explain why Dumbledore fully trusted Snape, but I still can't see this happeneing. Also, saying something as simple as that, leaves flaws in the vow that can be easily broken without really beaking it. You know what I mean? Like loopholes.

Oh, and even if Snape volunteered to save Dumbledore's life, Dumbledore still wouldn't have accepted it. Same thing with the vow.

My friend had this theory that Dumbledore could be evil. I'm not even sure what her reasons for the theory is.

I know a heck of alot of fans love Dumbledore.

But it is a possibility.

I think it could be possible for stupid reasons:

1)Dumbledore has trusted and awful lot of people who turn out to be bad (so we think). I know that trust is a sign of a good strong person. But could it also be a sign of one of the 'bad guys'?

2)(this is a fair point made by Tom Felton)Why would Dumbledore let Harry get into danger? e.g. Philosophers/Sorcerors Stone - Why did Dumbledore let Harry chase 'Snape' down to the stone-facing lots of danger? It doesnt make sense if he is 'helping' Harry.

I know that there are only 2 reasons and that they arent very good reasons.

But I had never thought of it until my friend mentioned it.

I also know that there will now be alot of angry people because I've just raised a possible theory that Dumbledore is evil.

Sorry.

That would really suck. But he has taught Harry so many things, like how to defeat Voldemort, so I don't think that could be possible.



Who has Dumbledore trusted that have turned out bad? Besides Snape becuase there are still questions about whether he is loyal or not.



Well, possibly so Harry could find out things for himself. It wouldn't be very fun if evertime Harry landed into trouble, Dumbledore always jumped in. Also, how would this appear to other students. Some already think that he is being favored, that would only make matters worse.

I just cannot see DD as a bad guy. I picture that right along with Harry becomming a death eater. Just not very likely. I feel that Snape does like Narcissa, although I think that like most of the women that he has fancied she is out of his class. I think that he liked Lily but I think he liked power better. and I think that he wanted power so that if people did not like him then at least they would fear him, which sure beats having people make fun of and ridicule you.

ok i really don't think that DD is bad... i mean after all he did to protect harry AND defeat voldemort..i mean...he did sacrifice his hand to destroying one of the horcruxes...i mean why would he do that if he was on the bad side...

and ok about the whole trust thing...i mean that is just his personality...and its not a bad thing...

and if harry can't trust dumbledore, he really can't trust anyone

I can give many possible examples of what the vow could have been, some with more wiggle room than others. The exact wording of the vow is less important here than whether or not one was made, which I believe there was. As I explained in the other thread, it is my view of Albus that is so different. He ain't Mr. Rogers.

QUOTE -- (by jennypotter)
NEW THEORY!!!
Snape did a binding charm with narcissa malfoy to protect draco (in HBP beginning) so no harm would come to him, while doing work for old voldy...
what if snape did the same charm all those years ago with dumbledore to protect harry? Maybe after he 'converted' to dumbledores side (as proof to dumbledore of his new allegiance) and thats why dumbledore trusts him???

Just a thought........ any comments......

wow guys.. think I may have opened a can of worms with that one....
Here's a few thoughts tho...
1) what if they did make the vow and were NO loopholes within the wording of that vow.

2) Maybe this way snape can repay his debt to james potter by protecting his son harry.

3) Thus satisfying dumbledore with his new allegiance and keeping him out of azkaban??

NEW THEORY
Dumbledore knew what draco was upto in HBP, maybe he knew he would be killed (and his vow with snape protected harry) as snape could of sense harry was there at the top of the tower as he's a skilled legilimens!!!!--but he had to kill dumbledore for malfoy as part of the vow with draco's mother narcissa!

I think dumbledore knew he was going to die! as in the HBP dumbledore asked harry to keep carrying out his orders to get the horcrux kill voldy etc even if DD died....

I heard that the last chapter of the last book was summarising on what happened to the chracters who survive ... hopefully, it'll involve Harry becoming a world famous auror, Ron and Hermione getting married, Fred and George becoming millionars from their joke shop, Mr Weasley cecoming minister for magic, and Umbridge getting beaten up by centours!

But one things cirtain ... i hope Harry survvives ... it won't be the same without Harry ...

I'm not sure whether or not Dumbledore would have made the vow, but I'm leaning towards him not doing it. But I posted earlier, and on the INvisability cloak thread, that I think Snape made an Unbreakable Vow with James just before Lily and him were killed, and in this one of the points could be for Snape to follow all Dumbledore's orders. This way it is up to Dumbledore what he askes Snape to do (such as the end of GoF) and what he orders him to do (i think he does that in HBP when Hagrid over hears them).

It just seems to convienent doesn't it, we all know Snape is a right £%*$ but yet for some reason Dumbledore trusts him completely, and the vow is the only solid reason we have so far.

I posted similar content to another thread.

I imagined a theory and I'm very fond of it.....
Remember in OOTP at the ministery when LV possesed Harry's body and dared DD to kill Harry? I think (imagine)of the same situation in reverse.....What if Harry somehow possess LV's body and Nevile ( as the "could have been chosen one" prophecy) utters the killing curse and only LV with his last Horcrux dies but not Harry. It could be Snape instead of Nevile who could through the killing curse. Twisted, isn't it?

expelliarmus
Sorry i just still dont think that would work how you are explaining it unless harry commited suicide. Though im not saying that this isnt a possiblity, it dose seem like somthing harry would do. In the chapter you are speaking of though i believe LV was just taunting DD because he knew DD would not kill harry evin to get to him.

Thank you Snuffalupagous'. DD didn't fall for LV' taunting but it does gives us an idea how to kill LV from within. Harry survived killing curse twice already, third times a charmed. I do want to see Harry alive.....

Im pritty sure Harry only survived one killing curse. If you are referring to when harry battled LV in the graveyard as harry surviving a killing curse, Harry acctualy blocked that curse he was not hit with it. I am sorry if there is another time that harry got hit with the killing curse i do not remember.

But i do think that harry may die while killing LV.

Harry Blocked the 2nd time and I will count as sirviving since it is Voldemort we are talking about. To Vanvquish LV from within by heroic Harry is a superb fantasy of mine..... It may or may not happen but JKR likes to play wicked tricks and she might left us clues in her previous books about Harry/Voldemort dire consequense, we just can't see them. When the final book comes I'm sure lots of readers gonna sigh "so that's how it happens......!" Til then we all are just having fun exploring all kinds of MAD therories.

Interesting idea expelliarmus, but I don't see Harry possessing anyone. Maybe LV will posses Harry and one of his friends would kill Harry killing Voldemort in the process.
If Harry dies I think he would die at the hands of Voldemort or maybe Snape.
If R.A.B. is evil but doesn't like Voldemort I can see him/her killing one of them, that is if he's still alive.

Thank you 'X-Girl'. Harry hasn't posses LV yet but LV accidentaly transfered HIS few powers to Harry, so Harry has to pick up all the power that's left in him which he hasn't used yet since it's the last book and who knows my fantacy might come true. R.A.B. is still a John Doe....As rumored R.A.B as Regulas....he is DEAD......so we need to find who R.A.B is to find the connection to Horcrux/death of LV.

expelliarmus
Now that makes a little more sence that harry would have to power to possess LV because of the exchange of power LV gave harry when he was a baby. Im also sorry if i have sounded rude when asking you about your theory i just like to get all of my facts straight . yes finding R.A.B. is going to help in the fight againced LV of corse. When harry finds who he/she is then we can see how many horcruxes he has found and/or destroyed. All and all there is alot going to be happening in the last book.

The first time I heard the R.A.B. is Regulus it made sense but now that I've thought about it more I'm not sure. I'm wondering if R.A.B. is just a pen name but that will leave Harry basically nothing to go on.
The locket in the house is suspicus though, 'also a heavy lockeyt none of them could open,'.
J.K. could have just been making a list or it could have been a clue.

If RAB is Regulus though the locket isnt destroyed as it is in Grimauld place (well it was who knows where it is now).

And if that is the case why didnt he destroy as soon as possible as he said he was gonna do?

It would be nice if this was the case as then at least one of the horcrux's whereabouts is known but it could just have been a red herring - I know that the horcrux's are supposed to have a lot of charms protecting them but surely Regulus would have found a way to destroy it rather than leaving it in the house - and aren;t the black's supposed to be on LV's side?

I think that the entire last book will be about finding the horcrux's and destorying them with a little side story to tie up all of the loose ends - HBP left too many questions for the final book to be a story on its own.

If the locket at Grimauld place is the horcrux, it could still have been distroyed as a horcrux. What i meen is the locket itself could still be whole but it could no longer be a horcrux. Evin if that is the case it is a big possiblity that aberforth now has the locket anyway.



The blacks did were not on LV's side per se, they were a pure blood family and they supported pure blood. They thought LV had the right idea, they were all for the purification of the wizarding race, getting rid of muggle-borns and having pure-bloods in charge. but besides regulus they would not put there hands to it.

I'm not sure how it will end. I had previously thought that Harry would be the final horcrux and that he would have to die in order for Voldemort to be defeated. But I have just realised that Harry can't be a horcrux, because Voldemort has been trying for years to kill Harry. Why would he do that if Harry was a piece of a soul?
However, whatever the ending is I get the feeling that there will not be a happy ending. The last 3 books have ended with a tragic death and I'm sure that book 7 will be no different.

I think Ginny and Harry's love protect's each other some how. A lot of people are going to die. I think Fred and George are going to survive.

Harry's Aunt Petunia will survive, but I think Dudley and Vernon will die.

Ron and Hermione will die protecting each other.

Mrs Weasley, Tonk's, Remus and Moody will survive.

ok, i know i'm going against the crowd here, but i just don't think that harry is gonna die! i mean, all his life he's been losing people, and there has been no way for him to ever really have any kind of parent figure. no one to care for him. and he's had to live with that his whole life. so i think that he won't die, simply because everyone he's ever really loved is dead. in a way, his whole life he's kinda been preparing to be alone, you know? as slowly one by one, everyone who has ever loved him has passed away. i think harry would refuse to die! voldemort has destroyed everyone he cares about. so, harry's not gonna give up! even if he knows he's defeated him. death is too low for him.
but i am afraid that like, ginny or ron or hermione <<or maybe all of them>> will die and that will be like harry's last test. voldemort will pretty much hurt him and offer to kill him, making it sound so good by telling him that he'll finally get to rest and see his loved one's again. and it'll be the hardest thing for harry to refuse, because he knows he wants to but he can't...because no one else can stop voldemort.

I dont want harry to die!!!!
I think that the prophecy is supposed to confuse us a lot but JK always says to just read the prophecy. It could be interpretted in so many different ways... but i dont want harry to die! it would be so weird, all of the books are written from his point of view..
ginny wont die. it would be way to cruel. the books would then just be pure torture for harry. his parents, sirius, dumbledore. geez... i dont know.
of course voldemort and bellatrix have to die. and lucius malfoy. what about draco...?

If Bellatrix doesn't die I just might chuck the book out the window.
Anyway that's interesting claireelizabeth.
Harry will probably end up fighting Voldemort alone like in Labyrinth where Sarah leaves all the others outside and goes to confront King of the Goblins alone.
If he's not alone then there will be a huge battle between him and his friends against the Death Eaters. Maybe he'll fight Voldy with his friends all injured or dead around him. It'll make him angry enough to kill Voldy.

jooles quote;
I dont want harry to die!!!!
I think that the prophecy is supposed to confuse us a lot but JK always says to just read the prophecy. It could be interpretted in so many different ways...

I agree with jooles, the prophecy can be interpreted in many different ways. The most obvious being 'neither can live while the other survives'. (Implying that voldermort and harry must both die).

I'm not sure what to believe, but JKR says lots of contradicting things...so maybe harry will survive after all...

Also I'm looking forward to the wizard war and the final showdown between harry & voldy. I'm sure the dementors from azkaban will side with old voldy, but who's side, will the giants and goblins be on, i wonder??......

I really don't care who dies(actually I do), but if the series ends in a way where Harry's and Ginny's love or anyone elses saves him, then I will chuck the book out my window and sell all of my Harry Potter stuff on Ebay. I mean, that is so Lily Potter-ish, using your love to die for someone else. And I too don't want Harry to die, but I got this really bad gut feeling that JKR might end it that way.

I hope that JK will make a good unique and interesting ending that none of us could of forseen. I'm sure w.e. ever ending she decides on it will be a good one

From all i have read it seems that Jo is going to tell us alot about the back story in the 7th book. I am really shocked that she says it should be shorter then OotP because there is so much more to tell and so much more to the story. I really cant wait to find out if we are right about half of the things we talk about on here or if we are dredfully wrong. Though i am going ot be sad for it to be over. I for one hope that the magical world is in full blown war and and there is alot of excitement. I for one know im going to be surprised.

yea i agree with snuff..hence my name..i'm not sure what will happen after this last book..there will be nothing left to talk about or ask..but i think that it will all end alright..not completely happily ever after but maybe for some characters..this book will hopefully fulfill all our questions though..if not she better write another one haha..whether harry dies or not

JKR probably won't answer all of our questions, and that will tear me apart becuase I will still be trying to figure out some things even after the series is over. I can tell that the ending is going to be really good and horrible at the same time with somewhat happily ever afters for a few of the characters.

It's gong to be shorter than the OotP? She better be writing in extremely tiny print or have another book coming out.

Yeah she was quoted saying that the 7th book should be shorter then OotP. But that was also a while ago. Alot has changed in the book from then to now. she has killed 2 people she didnt think she would.

Im almost clueless as to whos gonna die but im guessing that either ron or hermione (i think ron) will die because jk said she was going to kill of a very important character in the 7th book (and i dont really have much evidence supporting that theory).
But also lots of people think that hagrid is gonna die because hes the only close (adult) person to harry that is living that the dark lord (or followers)hasn't killed and i understand that but i doubt it. All of the people close to harry was killed by the dark lord (once again- or followers) for a reason- harry's mom, dad, dumbledore, sirius...etc. I dont think that the dark lord himself will go out of his way to kill hagrid just to make harry suffer- the dark lord would rather kill harry and he wont waste his time on someone that isnt even important to him nor is hagrid really a threat towards a powerful wizard like voldemort (although i love hagrid all the same).

"Neither can live while the other survives" in no way implies that both must die. From everything we've seen we know that the intended meaing of the word "live" in the prophecy cannot be "to continue in existence" because both have existed at the same time for over two years now. And that's not counting the nearly one year that it took for Voldermort to track the Potters down in the first place. I think it is meant as "to experience or enjoy life to the full" owing to the fact that both of them have been basically consumed with the other ever since the prophecy was told.

Exactly Anglar. Furthermore, what it means is that neither one of them can go on until they are sure the other one is dead. This is the "cause" in a cause/effect relationship. It was written effect first, cause last (This will happen because this other thing).

The cause (written last): "For neither can live while the other survives." Harry can't go on living while Voldemort is alive. Voldemort can't go on living while Harry is alive.

The effect (written first) "One must die at the hands of the other." One of them is going to kill the other. One (that is, One. As in One. You know? One?) must die (has to die, is going to kick the bucket, is fated to bite it) at the hands of (be killed by, the death will be caused by, the person most directly responsible will be) the other (the other one, the other of the two of them, the one of the two of them that caused the death of the "One" we are talking about).

I get (finally) where this interpretation is coming from, I think. People are reading the word "can" as imperative, as a "must" the prophesy is declaring. In other words, "Neither one will live," "Both must be dead," or something like that. Ok, I can see that. Neither can live. Ok. but what about the rest of that clause? "while the other survives." "Both must be dead while the other survives?" That makes absolutely no sense. The word "while" indicates a temporary situation. It indiates that what comes after it is only going to happen for a period of time, and that the condition set by the first part of the phrase (that comes before the word "while") only needs to be true while what comes after the word "while" is happening. In other words, what the prophesy would be saying would be "Both must be dead, but they only need to be dead during the time when the other survives." Ok, that doesn't make sense. Who is "the other" refering to? Not harry or voldemort. They can't survive. they are both dead. So "The Other" would need to be some third person that is introduced at the last moment. I can see you getting excited. "OOO! What if _________ is the other...." Wait. hold your horses. I'm not done. Let's put this interpretation with the first part.

One of them is going to kill the other, because they both must be dead while "Person X" is alive. Wait... what? That makes no sense. It doesn't work.

Look, everyone is entitled to their own interpretation, and I am a very open-minded person, so if you can read the prophesy how you want. However, the truth is that linguistically, the prophesy is not saying anything about both of them needing to die. Now, wait a second and let me rephrase that. It does not say anything either way. What I mean by that, is that the prophesy also does not say that one must live and one must die. The prophesy isn't saying that either. Jo said that she crafted the prophesy very carefully, and I posit that she did so to ensure that we know that one of them is going to die, but that they both might die. We don't know. It leaves open the possibility that Harry and Voldemort will both die. That being said, I think that harry will live. But that isn't anything based on the prophesy. It's just my opinion.

-Fish

'Neither can live while the other survives.'
That can't mean they literally can't because they are, so it's got to mean they can't be satisfied while they both survive.
I'm sure Voldemort will die, at the hands of Harry or someone else I'm not sure.
But what about the others who will die? More then two will. Personally I'm an awful pessimest sometimes and I'm convinced not all three of the trio will make it out that's not to say I'm happy about that idea, I really don't want to see Ginny, Luna, or Neville die either.
I'm convinced Snape is going to die. Maybe the whole Malfloy family will die.
I can totally see Book 7 being shorter then OotP. It's the quality not the quantity that matters.
I dunno what we'll all talk about after book 7 comes out and we're done gripping about how it comes out.
I still think it's possible Neville will kill Voldemort. And Bellatrix, I hope he kills Bellatrix.

not to b negative, but i really think that either ron or hermione will die in book seven. i don't blieve, however, that harry will die.. i also think that ginny and harry won't b together during book seven but they will end up together by the end of the book

Harry has to kill Voldemort and Voldemort has to kill Harry. No one else can do it because "one must die at the hands of the other for neither can live while the other survives."

Okay UnknownLocket my argument for that is the prophecy has been misinturperted. Besides remember DD says that it only has any relitivity because Voldemort believes it. If Voldy were to stop going by it then it wouldn't matter at all. Besides if someone else was to take a stab at it and had the power to do it what's going to stop them? Unless the prophecy is a magical binding contract whaich I don't think it is.
I also think Harry and Ginny won't get back together until the end of the book. Harry doesn't want Ginny to get hurt and he is going to stick with not going out with her until there isn't danger to her in it.

i agree that voldemort will die in the end and that harry will probably get back together with ginny at the end. the thing x-girl, im guessing no matter what, the prophecy would somehow have to come true. when trelawney made the prophecy about wormtail in the PoA, it came true, even though harry didn't tell anyone about it at the time. i think the only reason that is was misinterpreted was because snape didn't hear the whole prophecy. and even if it was so that if voldemort stopped believing in the phrophecy, than it wouldn't happen, but voldemort is too far into his battle with harry to change his plans about killing him and destroying the world around him.

The wierd thing is ,is that evey prediction Pro.Trelawney makes comes true.I have a feeling,though I hope it's not true,that Harry will die.But why would Jo kill off someone who has been in her life for 17 years?hmmm........

She could kill Harry off for many reasons. One main reason is so that no one can hmm wats that word...continue the series. Yeah, so that no one would continue it after she ends it. Know what I mean?

Yeah I could see her killing Harry because she wouldn't waqnt someone else to write about him when she's dead, I mean I wouldn't want someone to use my characters and make up stuff about them. Though I guess people could always bring him back to life.... Although it would be a miserable end to the series if Harry were to die. I mean we've been reading these books for years, I think we won't like the end one way or another.
About Voldemort believing in the prophecy, if it seems like he'll lose will he suddenly stop believing? And Voldy hasn't heard the whole prophecy yet, I'm guessing he will hear it at some point during this book.
Even if the prophecy is fufilled it may be in a way no one is expecting.

it is going to end with harry being a Horcrux so not only will voldemort die, but harry would have to die too. i think Harry kills voldemort, Snape kills Harry, Snape becomes the new Dark Lord

You really think that Harry is an horcrux? There is a thread about that, and if you don't mind, could you post your ideas there becuase I would like to hear more about what you think.

But anyways, I believe that there won't be a another Dark Lord though. I think that Snape is loyal to Dumbledore and will die after showing his true loyalty and going against Voldemort.