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Dominique
Hey everyone! smile.gif

Okay, I know that on the Ginny Characterization thread, a lot of the discussion was getting into Hermione vs Ginny, so I decided, with permission (wink.gif) to open this thread. Now here we can talk about both Ginny's and Hermione's personalities, and compare them!

My opinion, Hermione and Ginny are two completly different characters, but yet they keep a decent friendship going. They contrast eachother, so maybe that's what makes it work. But now, for the first time in HBP, they really get into a heated discussion, and are actually upset with eachother. What are they fighting over? More like, who are they fighting over. Harry. Each of them has their own view point of the issue with Draco and Sectusempra (-sp?) Hermione believes it was wrong of him to do it, and keeps telling him that.. She cares for Harry in the long run. Ginny, tells Hermione to give it a rest, and cares for Harry in short term.. Two very different types of people..

Well, let's get the discussion started!
-Dominique
Dreama
well,I think Hermione and Ginny are two completly different personalities..I like Hermione's personality more,cause she always tells Harry what she thinks,even if that's not what he wants to hear..and Ginny,on the other hand,tells him what he wants to hear..example:when they start fightin' for the first time..I mean,Hermione was right,and Ginny was just cruel..I think they are friends just because they have 2 persons,who they love,in common and cause they're spendin' their holidays together..if they were on a same year,they wouldn't stand eachother..they just don't have anything in common..Hermione's focused on studying,studying and just studying..while Ginny's priorities are,at least it seems like that,boys..I know all this seems like I don't like Ginny,but I really do..I just like Hermione more..which is completly normal,cause I know so much more about her than about Ginny..
Hermione_Resilda
I'm glad to see that you started it, Dominique.
When you said that they're friends because they contrast, that reminded me of the term, opposites attract. That saying can't only be used for lovers, but for friends as well. They're personalities are different, but they're willing to help each other out in any way they can. Hermione's a bit like an older sister to Ginny..

Hm, I don't think they were actually fighting over Harry, but just his well being. Yeah, Hermione and Ginny have different ways of how Harry should handle the new spells he's learned and the old, new potions book ( tongue.gif ).
Hermione cares for Harry in the way that a mother would, while Ginny in a way a sister would. Hermione's the kind who wants Harry to be safe, not do anything even more dangerous than he already has to. While Ginny, who of course wants Harry to be safe, wants him to be even more extreme than he is.. Since Hermione's goals are basically to do well in school, get a good job, and raise a family. And for Ginny, it seems as though she would live life more of an adventure..

Dreama..that's a pretty good point. Would they be able to stand each other if they didn't have Harry and Ron..? Well, I think that they wouldn't be how they are without Harry and Ron. Ginny would be more of the Lavender and Parvati type while Hermione would follow Percy's footsteps.. Both Harry and Ron made them who they are today. With Ron's protectiveness of Ginny, she turns out to be more sensitive. And with Harry's dangerous life, Hermione learns to put other stuff before her schoolwork.
Lynn
good that you started this!
hmmm, my first thought at that fight was that Ginny was so harsh for 2 reasons:

1st,
it seemed some kinda jealousy to me. Because she saw hermione was once again concerned about harry, she advised him, she showed her (platonic) love for him. Ginny knows Hermione's opinions are important to him, no matter if he agrees with her. This time he clearly didn't agree with her and tadaaa, there was Ginny's chance to get Harry's appreciation, and disagree with hermione. maybe she *did* agree with hermione, but she didn't say that, no.. she said what Harry wanted to hear.
2nd,
Harry was at that moment interested in Ginny. And Ginny knew. That's why she could openly blew 'Mione of, she didn't need her anymore! Maybe she only 'tolerated' her al those years because she was a freind of her brothers, and of course, a friend of Harry's. She could use hermione to be in harry's prescence without a good reason. And no she didn't need hermione anymore, so why still trying to be nice to her?

Maybe this is a bit off topic, but it seemed to me as though hermione's charactre in HBP had changed too since Ginny came in Harry's life. As soon as Ginny's there, she seemed to have replaced Hermione. We don't see Harry caring for 'Mione anymore, all he thinks about is Ginny. When he comes back from the whole adventure with DD, he immediately thinks about Ginny. he cares for no one but Ginny and is forgetting his other friends. Plus, it's Ginny who tells him to leave DD's side. If I were JK, I would have let Hermione do that. But since I'm Lynn it's Ginny who does that, and I'm just sitting here at home behind my comp nagging about it. *Sigh*.

cheers,, Lynn tongue.gif
Dominique
Glad that you guys think this is a good idea for a thread, I was a bit nervous tongue.gif
QUOTE
We don't see Harry caring for 'Mione anymore, all he thinks about is Ginny.

I can see what you mean by this, and I too thought that Hermione was cast in the shadows a little bit when Ginny came. dry.gif She sort of got pushed out of the way, well her character did anyways. I think that this changed shocked me a little bit as well, because it was Hermione who was always there.. And then in HBP, it shifted a little bit...

But I don't think it's true that Harry only cares for Ginny.. Even though this is getting a little shippy.. I think he displayed that he cared about Hermione when Ron was being awful to her and she was in a classroom alone.. He comforted her.. And Ginny in the book.. she just sort of popped in randomly, and Harry stared at her hair..
QUOTE
..if they were on a same year,they wouldn't stand eachother..

Hmm.. Interesting.. Yeah, I wonder if they would have nothing in common would they still be friends? They are really different, I agree, but would they be so different as to being friends? Maybe it would cut down on their friendship together.. But I mean, I don't think they are that close to begin with.. They're just friends because they have common friends like you guys said. We know that Hermione is best friends with Harry and Ron, but who are Ginny's best friends? I don't really know.. It wasn't actually described very much in the book and backed up.. Maybe Luna or Hermione? I dunno.. unsure.gif

-Dominique
dualcool
ya you all are right that ginny and hermione have got different personalities but still i think ginny didnt fight with hermione just to impress harry but she didnt like the way hermione was yelling at harry about the potions book and ofcoarse she was glad that harry didnt become the victim of that killing curse by malfoy. hermione was talking about the potions book when ginny yelled and at that point harry too was frustrated by the way hermione blamed the prince and the book instead of considering malfoy's killing curse on harry. ginny was glad that harry was safe but hermione was angry that he used the prince's invented spell and got detention.
Dumbledore's Widow
Hermione and Ginny certainly do have different personalities.

Hermione, being an only child was probably sheltered by her parents, not necessarily pampered. She was initially awkward in her attempts to make friends at Hogwarts. I got the impression that her intelligence and bookworm ways may have alienated her from her peers at her old school, before attending Hogwarts. Her "Miss-Know-it-all" attitude didn't help her win friends at Hogwarts either. But, since the Troll incident in the Sorcerer's Stone, she became a loyal and true friend to Harry and Ron. Her friendship with Ron brought an added bonus in that she was befriended by Ron's sister, Ginny. The girls are not at all alike, but they like each other like sisters. Hermione has always been the voice of reason for impetuous Harry. Harry realizes that she is right in many ways, but there are times that he just wants to blow it off and just have fun. I guess you can say that Hermione is a very serious individual, who on occasion, can loosen up and just have fun. Like when she played quidditch with Ron, Harry and Ginny at the Burrow. It isn't her thing but she wants to belong.

Ginny on the other hand is the only girl in a family of several boys. And, she's the youngest to boot. She has Molly for a mother, and I can well imagine the coddling Molly has given Ginny! Her brothers seem to be a bit over protective of her and this coupled with Molly's coddling has made her into one feisty girl. She is adventurous and a bit of a dare-devil, and in my opinion, she can be reckless. She also shoots from the hip, so to speak. She is blunt, to the point of being unkind. Such as in the "give it a rest" scene with Hermione. You could cut the tension with a knife in that scene. She also seems to have a horrible temper. Hermione does not. In fact, in my opinion, Hermione seems to go out of her way to avoid confrontations. Ginny, seems to cause them.

Am I making any sense here at all? Dominique, what do you think?



muggleview
Dumbledore's Widow, I like your posting. It makes good sense. Hermione and Ginny are products of different worlds as well. Hermione from Muggleworld, Ginny from Wizarding world. Since POA, they have shared summers in the same room, at least for one night.
The only question I have is your last remark:
QUOTE (Dumbledore's Widow)
In fact, in my opinion, Hermione seems to go out of her way to avoid confrontations. Ginny, seems to cause them.

Hermione was ready to confront people who oppose her idea of SPEW. She even dared to confront Mrs. Weasley for that. Fortunately Mrs. Weasley didn't go into it further. Hermione started the confrontation about Firebolts and Half-Blood Prince's potion book. She could have done it in a more friendly way. Thus, I don't think Hermione went out of her way to avoid confrontations.
Ginny actually prevented one potential confrontation caused by Hermione during the first DA meeting, using her imitation of Umbridge's voice. She prevented the confrontation between Harry and Hermione + Ron during the winter in OOP. To me, the real confrontation Ginny caused is when she accepted to be Harry's girlfriend, although at Hogwarts, she seemed to be in good term with her love rivals.
Again, the rest of the posting is great!
Nimbus
Hermione and Ginny both want whats best for Harry. However, what they feel is best for Harry is different. Hermione, who has more of a short term pain long term gain train of thought, instructs Harry to do what she would do. That is, think about the situation as a whole and not just the here and now. Ginny, however, who is more short term gain long term pain, instructs Harry to jump right in to what he feels he should do without really looking at all the pros and cons of the situation. Obviously Ginny feels this is an ok thing to do, as she is hexing and jinxing ppl left and right, so this is what she instructs harry to do.

I guess in the end it comes down to they both tell Harry what they think is best to do, but Hermione tends to be the one who actually has a valid reason for feeling the way she does; not just, "Well it felt like the right thing to do" like Ginny.
muggleview
Solorund,
I don't understand why you can say:
QUOTE (Solorund)
Obviously Ginny feels this is an ok thing to do, as she is hexing and jinxing ppl left and right

Let's compare Hermione and Ginny in hexing and jinxing throughout the series:

Book 1: Hermione hexed Neville, casted fire on Snape's robe (who was helping Harry at that time)
Ginny hexed: 0
Book 2: Both hexed: 0
Book 3: Hermione almost hexed Draco (and hit him instead)
Ginny hexed: 0
Book 4: Hermione hexed unprepared Draco on the train
Ginny hexed: 0
Book 5: Hermione jinxed Marietta, hexed DeathEaters in DOM
Ginny hexed Draco during the fight at Umbridge's office, hexed DeathEaters in DOM
Book 6: Hermione confunded McLaggen, sent birds to Ron.
Ginny hexed Zacharias Smith.

Hermione hexed/jinxed: 7
Ginny hexed: 3
Unless you have strong canon backup, the statement: "Ginny is hexing and jinxing people left and right" is a cruel false accusation.

Lynn
OK muggleview you're right... smile.gif but it seems as though Ginny is hexing around because everyone is always talking about her so-called bogey bat hex (sp?). she seems to be hexing people without a good reason. when hermione hexes someone, she does have a reason..
Nimbus
Yes, as Lynn mentioned I picked up on the fact that we are told Ginny is good at hexes and performs them often. I can't remember the exact book or part of the book it is in but I think I remember Lupin saying it once, and now that I think about it it might actually be stated in more then just one book.

When it comes down to it, the bottom line is that they both may hex people but the reasons they do differ greatly. 99% of the hexes and or jinx that hermione has done to people have been for the good of people, as a whole. Yes, she hexed Neville, but perhaps you think she should have spent an additional 10 minutes or more explaining to him exactly what they were doing and why they had to do it...meanwhile leaving Quirell down with the stone. Or maybe she should have let snape/quirell continue with jinxing harry's broom? Ginny, on the otherhand, seems to be doing hexes because it makes her feel good. Sort of a quick revenge.
Dominique
Dumbledore's Widow, Yeah, it does make sense! smile.gif I like how you seperated both Ginny and Hermione.. The thing that I totally forgot is that Hermione is an only child! It completly crossed my mind! Do you guys think that since she is an only child she is more loyal to her friends because she wasn't really that 'close' to anyone before, where as Ginny is overshadowed by people, and wants to break free... I dunno what to think really..

As for the hexing bit.. One has the same reputation as the other. They both hexed people. Period. It doesn't matter how many times, when or when, they both did it, and sometimes for unjust reasons. I think the reason why we see Hermione jinxing more people is because she is one of the main characters, and the main action is focused on her, Harry and Ron, and Ginny isn't one of the main characters and we don't see/read about her jinxing people.. But she could still be doing it for all we know.. Or not doing.. Could be both ways.. Tricky.. wink.gif

-Dominique
muggleview
Lynn, this is what worries me:
QUOTE (Lynn)
OK muggleview you're right...  but it seems as though Ginny is hexing around because everyone is always talking about her so-called bogey bat hex (sp?). she seems to be hexing people without a good reason.

Ginny only hexed one guy in HBP. However, the rumours which started with it "seems" become bigger like snowball rolling from the hill, and suddenly "Ginny hexing people left and right" without it "seems" anymore. You see, this is the danger. We are deviated from canon, into a virtual truth of gossips.
One, two, three people are not "Everyone". As Solorund tried very hard to recall:
QUOTE (Solorund)
I can't remember the exact book or part of the book it is in but I think I remember Lupin saying it once, and now that I think about it it might actually be stated in more then just one book.

It's true that Bat Bogey Hex has been mentioned in two consecutive books, OOP and HBP. It was first mentioned by the Twins to Harry. Then, Ron reported Ginny casted it on Draco in their escape fight from Umbridge's office. At the end of OOP, the people saw the hex were the Inquisitorial Squad members, Ron, Neville and Luna. Harry never saw the hex performed and neither did Hermione nor Umbridge.
In HBP, the hex was performed to Smith, most likely in the presence of Dean and at most 3 other students in Ginny's compartment (usually for 6 people), and Professor Slughorn saw it when he passed by. Until the end of HBP, Harry never saw the hex and neither did Hermione. Harry heard the reputation and worried that Ginny may cast it to Ron at the Quidditch field. This was at the time Harry was not Ginny's boyfriend yet. Harry respects Ginny's power so much that he conveniently forgot Ginny restrained herself from hexing Ron, despite the near-miss after kissing Dean incident (Harry had to restrain Ron for hexing Ginny once more, whereas Ginny didn't attack at all). Although Ginny has a forceful personality, she doesn't hex people without reason. In the huge tension with Ron, where Ginny lost her cool and said too much unnecessarily, she could restrain herself not to use hex to attack nor to to defense herself. In fact, the reputation of Bat Bogey Hex reduces the need of using it and prevents those who dislike Ginny (the Slytherins, I mean) to even think of doing something to her.
I cannot find reference stating Lupin saying something about Bat Bogey Hex. Please help.
So now hopefully we can see the facts and the whole facts and nothing but the facts, and refrain ourselves from spreading malicious false rumours which will ruin our fun in discussions.

Hermione is one of my favourite characters, so I cannot effectively say bad things about her, even when she made mistakes. In this, I very much agree with Dominique that "They both hexed people. Period." Since we don't see Ginny doing it more, we shouldn't just assume she did it more. If she did and this is significant, we will read it in the canon. Otherwise, it's baseless rumours.

Back to the comparison, Hermione being the only child has driven her closer to the Weasleys, similar to Harry. The big warm family always attracts lonely people (like in "My Big Fat Greek Wedding"). However, the major contribution to Hermione's character is the fact that she is born to Muggle parents, but has magical power. We can imagine how confused her parents are, and evenmore because both are dentists, thus tend to think scientifically. This fact already isolates Hermione from her common friends. She is different from "them". Her parents may try to isolate her, not to scare the other children and parents. We could see how happy she was when she saw someone was about to perform magic in the train (Ron!). Then, she found her world, where she can be what she is, a witch, without having to hide it from others.
The years of isolation has taken its toll to the little Hermione. Her social skill is pathetic. Until HBP, her bff is Ginny, her closest friends are two male classmates.
On the other hand, Ginny grew up with magic, the good and the bad. Even if her brothers love her, she still got some hexes casted on her, and the books indicated she took parts in the Twins' experiments.
However, without realizing it, Ginny was isolated as well. She lived in a protected "paradise". She was home-schooled until she went to Hogwarts, so she didn't have real friends until then. I don't think she knows Luna well beforehand, although the Lovegoods live not too far from the Weasleys. They may have seen each other during some events, but from afar. However, the warmth of her family that flows through her enables Ginny to make friends. Her wit that she carried from home can make her acceptable for many, although her poverty apparently prevents her to be in elite class (as she lamented in her diary in COS). Nevertheless, Ginny can be good friends to the pariahs of the society (Neville and Luna), and the commoners (not so popular people, like Michael Corner and Dean Thomas).

Westerly
So, you got your way Dominique.... wink.gif
Congrats.

Now for the question that you asked - how do these two very different girls manage to maintain a friendship?

My answer is - I'm not sure, seeing as most of this friendship is written in the 6th book and we're not really given all that much insight into what makes it tick. We see Hermione interacting with Ginny more in the 6th book than we have across the entire series which is interesting. We know that Hermione knows about Ginny's relationship with Michael Corner, before either Ron or Harry does, and that Hermione doesn't reveal this to Harry and Ron in OotP.

In HBP we also see that Ginny has insider knowledge about Hermione's relationship with Viktor (as she reveals to all and sundry in her fight with Ron in the hallway.)

So while they've obviously been sharing romantic confidences, and share a dislike of Fleur (though express it in markedly different ways), I don't see much in terms of common ground between them beyond their relationships with Ron and Harry. Seeing as they don't seem to interact much with any other girls (which is odd) its hard to say what kind of girls they'd normally pick as friends. But I honestly find it hard to imagine Ginny wanting to befriend the brain of the class, or Hermione being interested in befriending a sporty, popular type of girl. There's not much evidence either way though.

Once the respective pairings occur, it's interesting to note the tension and the almost adversarial shift that is signalled in some of their exchanges. It's as if they move from being allies united in a common cause, into oddly ambiguous territory.
Nimbus
QUOTE (Westerly @ Nov 8 2005, 11:29 PM)

To me, motivation is everything and I disagree that motivation 'doesn't matter'.

I totally completely 110% agree with this statement. Why you do something is everything! Ginny seems to be hexing people for revenge. In other words, she wants to cause them physical pain for the physical and/or emotional pain they caused her. Hermione on the other hand has completely different motives. She doesn't use hexing as a way to hurt, but to actually help the person, or to help the "good" people as a whole anyway. One example that immedietely comes to mind is Neville in the first book. Yes, she hexes him, but as Ron brilliantly puts it, it was "for his own good". The fact that Hermione hexes her victims will, in the end, bennifit them more then harm them. In other words, the ends justify the means. This is not so in Ginny's case. She isn't trying to hex them to help them shes hexing them to say "don't mess with me".

Hermione hexs to help her "victims"

Ginny hexs to hurt her victims.

Granted, Ginny has also hexed to help. i.e. deatheaters.
Westerly
Sorry Solorund. While you were posting I was editing out most of my first post.

This is what I'd cut out, and it still makes for one awfully long post. And yes, I quoted you too smile.gif:

QUOTE (Solorund)
Hermione and Ginny both want whats best for Harry. However, what they feel is best for Harry is different. Hermione, who has more of a short term pain long term gain train of thought, instructs Harry to do what she would do. That is, think about the situation as a whole and not just the here and now. Ginny, however, who is more short term gain long term pain, instructs Harry to jump right in to what he feels he should do without really looking at all the pros and cons of the situation.


Which is what I like about Hermione and what makes me incredibly wary about Ginny as a character.

QUOTE (Solorund wrote:)
When it comes down to it, the bottom line is that they both may hex people but the reasons they do differ greatly. 99% of the hexes and or jinx that hermione has done to people have been for the good of people, as a whole. Yes, she hexed Neville, but perhaps you think she should have spent an additional 10 minutes or more explaining to him exactly what they were doing and why they had to do it...meanwhile leaving Quirell down with the stone. Or maybe she should have let snape/quirell continue with jinxing harry's broom? Ginny, on the otherhand, seems to be doing hexes because it makes her feel good. Sort of a quick revenge.


To me, motivation is everything and I disagree that motivation 'doesn't matter'.

With Ginny, she often acts from a place of personalised motivation - it's not just the hexes - everything seems to take on a personal dimension for Ginny, while Hermione seems to be (usually) pretty utilitarian in her approach. For Ginny, she passionately defends people because she likes them and is equally vocal and aggressive towards those she dislikes. Her world (like Ron, the twins and Molly) seems to break down along black and white divisions where you have enemies and friends and those you like or loathe. That's how they think - in terms of like and dislike. In place of a more generalised sense of fairness, there is this clannish, insular morality that characterises them.

Hermione on the other hand seems to operate (or at least tries to operate) on more broad-based principles or moral guidelines, rather than simply acting out of the more narrow basis of like or dislike. I'm not saying that Hermione doesn't feel dislike, (or is never unfair, because she is) but that 9 times out of ten, she doesn't use personal dislike as her main guideline for acting. When Hermione hexed Snape to 'rescue' Harry from him for example, there wasn't a sense that she was doing it just for the heck of it, or because she was driven by personal dislike for Snape and was looking for some kind of revenge. There was no malice or a sense that it was lightly undertaken.

What I find even more interesting is the blackmailing of Rita Skeeter which showed off Hermione's more reckless and vengeful side. Make no mistake - she loathed Rita Skeeter and was clearly out to get her and took real satisfaction in outwitting her. What I love however is that despite her deep dislike of the woman, Hermione was able to act with restraint, and scheme towards fulfilling a much larger cause than just satiating her own, personal anger. This ability to think on a larger scale (imv) has allowed her to be a far more significant, influential and effective character than Ginny has ever been throughout the series.

Hermione wreaks personal vengeance on Rita - and it runs the risk of being purely personal, yet, it also goes beyond personal (and instant) gratification. She's not the only person who benefits from her actions. To me, Ginny's actions always seem to be more localised with less far-reaching effect. (When Ginny knocks back Zacharias Smith, she's the beneficiary there.) Her recent proximity to Harry has given her a degree of influence, but it remains to be seen what type of influence this is.

I don't think Hermione is always consistent with her standards (Fleur, McClaggen, Lavender), or always succeeds in being judicious but I can at least think of examples where she genuinely tries to be fair even with people that she doesn't necessarily like or who dislike her (Snape, Malfoy, Kreacher). Fewer (if any) examples spring to mind when it comes to Ginny trying to be fair in a similar circumstance. That to me is a hallmark of character - it's easy to treat people well when you like them and when they like you - but how about when you don't like them or they dislike you?
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