I remind you that at the middle of OotP, Harry thought that he, Voldermort possessing him, actually attacked Mr. Weasley. Ginny ask:

“'Well, can you remember everything you've been doing?' Ginny asked. 'Are there big blank periods where you don't know that you've been up to?'
Harry racked his brains.
'No,' he said.
Then You-Know-Who hasn't ever possessed you,' said Ginny simply. 'When he did it to me, I couldn't remember what I'd been doing for hours at a time. I'd find myself somewhere and not know how I got there.'”

Well now, flash-forward to Chapter 26 and Prof. Snape.

“Harry opened his eyes. He was flat on his back again with no memory of having got there; he was also panting as though he really had run the length of the Department of Mysteries corridor, really had sprinted through the black door and found the circular room.”

What is Prof. Snape really doing during these lessons? Is that last passage meaningful?

[size=18]ASC

I had a thought about that. What if Snape is trying to unlock HP's mind and find out what he knows? We know he's supposedly teaching him to block his mind but what if that's just a cover? For all we know Voldy could have created a new spell that can get around Occlumency and he cast it against Snape to make him find out what HP knows about the MoM and the DoM. You could argue that Voldy was there but he wasn't in the DoM was he? Think about it.

Yes, well I was aiming more along these lines: Prof. Snape is not on Harry's side. Prof. Snape learned a lot of what Harry was dreaming during the lessons and never once do the books say Prof. Snape told Prof. Dumbledore. Maybe Prof. Snape is not on anyone’s side but his own. Lord Voldemort plants the images in Harry's head; Prof. Snape extracts them. Prof. Snape now knows what each side is doing, and Voldemort is none the smarter of what Prof. Severus Snape is sneaking around in.
ASC

How could it be?? Whan Aldus Dumbldore trusts in him so much?? :idea:

If a person is trully evil then trust has nothing to do with it. We know that DD's been wrong in the past and there is a chance that he's wrong about Snape.

Fry: Then there's characters like Snape, who are bad but there is a certain ambiguity about him. Something very lonely. We're slowly (after five books) getting the idea that maybe he is not so bad after all.

JK Rowling: Yes, but you shouldn't think he's too nice. Let me jsut say that. It is worth keeping an eye on old Severus Snape, definitely.

After this, I really do believe that he will go back to the Dark Side. I don't want him to, and I sometimes think that he won't.

There is also the rumor of Snape being redeemed. This rumor has been around a long time, and the longer, the more likely to come true. I believe that this means he will be redeemed on Voldemort's side.

He switches around. He is too bad to be good, too good to be bad.

And with Dumbledore trusting him - this is one of Dumbledore's greatest flaws. He is too willing to trust everyone and believe everyone is good just because they say so.

When has Dumbledore been wrong in the past?

I think he hasn't been wrong??

Dumbledore has been wrong before>>
crouch jr. | prof. quirrel
-ASC

DD beens wrong a few times. Mainly the ones ASC pointed out. He was also wrong with not telling Harry everything. There are a few times when he admits he was wrong but I can't be bothered to check them out and put them here.

But maybe, (unlikely, but possibly) Dumbledore KNEW about Quirrell and Crouch Jr. Perhaps he doesn't want to interfere. If he were to always shield Harry from Voldemort, then Harry would never get his chance to defeat Voldemort. And the sooner Harry defeats Voldemort, the happier everyone is. So maybe Dumbledore knew about Quirrell, he just thought "Gee, if I stop everything, I'll be interfering with the prophecy. The boy is supposed to face Voldemort, let's give him those chances."
Hmmm... I think I have a quote about that somewhere.

Brilliant Laura. I change my post to what Laura said. I am in total agreement with her!!!

There we are, I found the quote I was looking for (Philosopher's Stone, chap. 17) first Ron suggested that Dumbledore was setting the whole thing up for Harry by sending him the invisibility cloak, and hermione says that it sounds terrible, Harry could have died.

"No it isn't," said Harry thoughtfully. "He's a funny man, Dumbledore. I think he sort of wanted to give me a chance. I think he knows more or less everything that goes on here, you know. I reckon he had a pretty good idea we were going to try, and instead of stopping us, he just taught us enough help. I don't think it was an accident he let me find out how the mirror worked. It's almost like he thought I had the right to face Voldemort if I could..."

Why would he let Harry face Voldemort? Because he thought maybe this time, Harry will kill Voldemort off. I'm not sure, I just think that it makes some sense.

But Triad has a point. Dumbledore was certainly very wrong in not telling Harry everything in book 5. Unless he was just pretending he was wrong (Although he was even crying so that's REALLY unlikely.)

well dd wasnt gona tell hary abt the whole prophesy voldemort thing till he got older and wen he understood more.

maybe he thought hary had to find out a bit more abt voldemort and himself. and then he could hav told him.

but dd made too many mistakes along the way and he just draged the whole thing on to the point to wer he HAD to tell

ya well on page 590 bottem of the page following on to the next snape explains what hes doing he is trying to teach harry occlumency the fact that part of what ginny was saying is happening could just be from the fact that snape has to teach him to eventualy fight off the possetion so he wasmost likly merly preparing him for the worst wich in this case is the possestion so any way hats my opinion :roll:

or maybe snape wants to enters harry´s mind to know about all the dreams that he have had, ant to inform Dumbleldore and all the guys from the order so they can know all the evils plans of voldemort and know how to defende themselves against him, because i dont trust completely snape, because he hate james, and harry also.. so i dont he wanted to help so much :!:

i really dont think snape's with voldemort

the whole occlumency thing how harry says it makes him feel like his mind even weaker...harry has been wrong way more often than dumbledore

and harry has a grudge towards snape
often when u have a grudge towards someone you dont have as much trust towards them or as much of an open mind

yer well i think snape is good,
but i got a feeling he will muck something up for the order OR voldemort figgers out that snape isnt on his side and kills him

I thought Prof. Snape was pretty strange in book 5....did you guys get the impression that Prof. Snape was weakening Harry's mind rather than strengthening it? That's what I thought, and Harry talked to Hermione and Ron about it too. We all know that he hated James and Sirius and Lupin because of their days back in school. He obviously hates Harry as well. Dumbledore trusts him, but he was wrong with Crouch and Quirrell. My question is this: Where was Prof. Snape when Harry and company went to the DoM at the end? Where was he?

yes snape may be a DE or yeah he might be loosening harry for voldemort to access his mind easily.

i dont think/never thought that snape would go back to voldemort.

I figure that Dumbledore does make mistakes, who doesn't? But I also believe that since he *does* know most, if not all of what is going on at Hogwarts, he likely knew they were mistakes when he made them. I mean, it wouldn't be something new for a person to avoid doing something just because they didn't want to do it. Even if they knew they should (or vice versa).

I'm betting that Dumbledore wants to give Harry all the chances he can get to face Voldemort, in order to prepare him for all that is to come. He's never going to be ready for the final battle if he never gets any experience...

I'm guessing that Albus has a pretty good reason for trusting Snape (which we're supposed to find out about in the upcoming books). It sucks that we don't know what this reason is right now... but lets face it, if we already knew whether or not we could trust Snape (and what he was up to) the books wouldn't be half as interesting as they are without us knowing! JK obviously knows this too, so I doubt we'll really know whats going on inside Snape's head until the end of book seven.

Though gotta say, I'm dying to know.

Snape has been invited into too many conferences and important meetings to be a bit suspicious in DD's mind. I think the reason why he is DD's friend is ver important to the story/plot

Mmm... I think that the 'no memory of being there' type stuff is just, well... side-effects to occlu. But I won't let this theory be completely scratched! I just hope that Dumbledore's making the right decision in trusting Snape.

I just think that Snape hates everything to do with the Potters but has no choice but to follow DD.

Yeah, I think you're right, Wednesday. I think that Dumbledore does acknowledge his decision to keep the prophecy from Harry may have been wrong. Personally, I think he was probably right to do so though, because I think it's a very heavy thing for a 15-year old to deal with - that he has to kill or be killed. Something like that is bound to mess with your mind in some way...who knows what effect that type of thing could have?

Getting back to Snape though, yeah, you're right about that too...he was off trying to do his best to check things out for himself...although he must have already done that by the time the Order got to the DoM....So Snape's absence from the actual fight is still something of a mystery really...unless he had to remain at the school for some reason....maybe Dumbledore told him to...maybe he's too important to the Order for some reason....**shrugs** I don't know...it's weird....

Although I have to say, I do think it's possible that Snape might not have moved quite as quickly as he could have done - why would he care if Sirius was in trouble? Yes, he has to be seen to be doing the right thing in front of Dumbledore...and he did, eventually...but who knows if he coudn't have maybe acted that little bit quicker and then he could have caught Harry before he left Hogwarts?

But then we wouldn't have had a story I guess, would we?

I agree! I think that Harry has always been a bit prejudiced towards Snape. But that does NOT mean that I agree with Snape

They're both prejudiced towards each other, but at times I think Harry's prejudice towards Snape is more harmful..

I'm sure I've said it before, possibly about Snape, but I don't think JKR would be so obvious as to write a character in terms of "Ahh, he's mean, but he's a good guy, OH NO FOOLED YOU, he was bad all along, you're so smart have a cookie", you know? She doesn't do things so plainly black-and-white as that...I think that Snape is fallable *sp?* and will at some point make a mistake that'll cost the good guys, a lot, but....I honestly don't think he's a DE anymore...

As for the occ. classes, I agree with Wednesday_Adams, about it being much of a strain, and also with Laura about Dumbledore letting things happen...after all, he never seems all that suprised every time Harry saves the world, does he? I mean, I know DD's cool and all that, but he's almost never *oh Harry, I wish you hadn't done that, it wasn't safe, you should stay in your bed like a good boy*, is he? He constantly has faith in Harry's abilities, and...I forget where I'm going with this. Bother.

But yeah, I don't think in this instance Dumbledore's wrong in trusting Snape's loyalties...and...yeah...

Well occlumency was messing with Harry's mind, it was bound to have some side affects. but maybe snape was trying to see how much harry knew.

He could've been trying to find out how much he knew for Dumbledore also though, even if that is true. No one really wants Harry to know that much, not unless it's necessary. If Harry knew something that Dumbledore didn't think he should know, I'm sure he'd want Snape to tell him... afterall, DD wouldn't be able to look at Harry and see himself would he?

The curious thing about Snape is that Dumbledore trusts him, but doesn't trust him enough to give him the Dark Arts teaching post.

As far as the occlumency training: Snape is the best occlumency teacher (that's got to be important in the future), but he also hates potter -- that is why he is so tough on him in the training (just like potions class)

I can't wait until Harry gets his OWL's back with an excellant on potions.

(quote) did you guys get the impression that Prof. Snape was weakening Harry's mind rather than strengthening it? That's what I thought, and Harry talked to Hermione and Ron about it too. (quote)

I don't think that Snape was weakening Harry's mind. I think that he was strengthening it. Snape was hard on him because when Voldemort would go into Harry's head he wouldn't be like "ok Harry, are you ready? I'm coming into your head now." He would just do it. That's why Snape didn't wait for Harry to be ready or anything.

I agree with you, quidditvhqueen281. Even though Snape´s never been nice to Harry(and I don´t think he´ll ever be), that doesn´t mean that he wants him dead or handed in to Voldemort, so I guess that´s just the way to really teach him, not letting him be all prepared and ready for somebody breaking into his mind.

I think Snape is a complicated character, but I genuinely believe he is now a spy for thed order and is spying on Voldemort. Which brings me to my next point; I don't think Snape was absent from the Death Eater's circle that night.


I also think that Snape was not at the Department of Mysteries Battle because if he showed up and started fighting Death Eater's it woulod revealed his status as a spy. I mean he can't stun them one second, and then ask for confidential information the next, can he?

SiriusLupin - you brought up an interseting point. you did not think Snape missed the night that Voldie was brought back. I always just assumed that he was one of the 6 missing ones.
Which also means that he probably comfirmed Harry's verisons of the night.

Hmm. I too think that Snape was one of the 6 missing. But like SiriusLupin said "I also think that Snape was not at the Department of Mysteries Battle because if he showed up and started fighting Death Eater's it woulod revealed his status as a spy. I mean he can't stun them one second, and then ask for confidential information the next, can he?" is very true too. If Snape was at the DoM it would've thrown it all away because as Snape told Harry "that is my job" finding out what the DE are saying to each other. He and Lucious are pretty chummy (in the foreground anyway) so i daresay that it would have caused the Order and the DE lots of trouble if Snape started hexing Malfoy.

I also think that Snape was just being his normal self during the Occulmency lesson. He was giving Harry a hard time as usual. I think Harry is also very prideful so he probably wanted more than anything to stop Snape from reading his mind, but as we know Harry wears his emotions on his sleeves which makes him a very easy victim. Harry not wanting Snape to penetrate his mind made it a lot easier for snape to actually do it. Thus making it more taxful on Harry which then accounts for his weak and exhausted feeling afterward.

I think Snape was trying to help Harry and his (for the moment) on DD´s side, but maybe(and this is just IMHO) what JK said has something to do with the reason why DD doesn´t give Snape the DADA post. I guess(and profoundly hope) that we will find out what this reason is at some point. Maybe Snape is too bitter and inclined to the Dark Arts and DD doesn´t want to give hiom the chance to fall back there again.

if dd knew then why did he not stop q hahahahahahahah

Remedial Potions was the excuse Harry was told to give to anyone if they asked why he was having private lessons with Snape. I don't think we have to debate whether or not Snape is good or bad at this point, which is what most of this thread is about but in order to revive this thread, I thought we could discuss maybe more in depths the Occlumency lessons with Snape.

Do you think Occlumency lessons with Snape was a waste of time?

Do you think that any good came out of having Occlumency lessons with Snape?

Why do you think that Snape had such a hard time teaching Occlumency to Harry?

More importantly why did Harry have such a difficult time learning how to close his mind during Occlumency?

Let's see if we can get this sleeping thread going again.

Sweet questions neville's girl. I'm currently re-reading OoTP and have been pondering these same ideas. There are two facts pertaining to occlumency we have to keep in mind.
1. Kreacher informed Bella and Cissy all about Harry's snake vision a few days before Christmas, so the dark side knew before the light.
2. Dumbledore ordered Occlumency lessons with Snape only because Snape informed him that Voldy was aware that Harry had a connection to what he was seeing and feeling.

Questions asked in bold/answers standard "Do you think Occlumency lessons with Snape was a waste of time? No, I think Snape realized the dangers of Voldemort being able to access Harry's subconscious and sincerely wanted Harry to block out Voldy's images.

Do you think that any good came out of having Occlumency lessons with Snape? I think Harry grew to know Snape better by seeing his own memories - the battered mother and crying child, the Marauder's unpleasant deeds, his fight with Lily, etc. I also think had Harry been able to put aside his own negative feelings about Snape he may have been able to succeed.

Why do you think that Snape had such a hard time teaching Occlumency to Harry? Because Harry continued to let the Department of Mysteries permiate his dreams.

More importantly why did Harry have such a difficult time learning how to close his mind during Occlumency? Personal grudeges?! just my opinion. What do you think (asks audience in general?)

Do you think Occlumency lessons with Snape was a waste of time?

Do you think that any good came out of having Occlumency lessons with Snape?

Why do you think that Snape had such a hard time teaching Occlumency to Harry?

More importantly why did Harry have such a difficult time learning how to close his mind during Occlumency?

I don't think the Occlumency lessons were such a waste of time. I think that Harry made them to be a waste of time. If it was someone else, like Dumbledore or Lupin or someone else that Harry liked, then he probably would have been able to truly learn how to do Occlumency, but the fact that it was Snape who had to teach him made his experience worse. Harry never truly 'tried' to clear his mind. Granted, yes it was probably very hard for him to do that, but his hatred blinded him of what he should've been doing. If Harry had taken his lessons seriously, I think much good would have came out of it. For one thing, Sirius would still be alive. I think Snape had a hard time teaching Harry Occlumency was because of the simple fact that Harry looked like his father, James. That was the whole reason why Snape never really liked Harry in the first place. Harry's eyes are what changed things; Lily's eyes. The only reason why Snape agreed to do anything for Harry (including these Occlumency lessons) was because of the fact that Harry had his mother's eyes. Although, I don't think that made it any easier for him. He loved Lily a lot, and it must've hurt to constantly see those emerald green eyes every day. I image that during these Occlumency lessons, Snape had to look at Harry before using Legilimens on him. If every time Snape looked into Harry's eyes, and thought of what happened to Lily, it would spark a hatred in him. Maybe because of the fact that he couldn't protect Lily? Or that he never 'got the girl'. Add the fact Harry looks exactly like his father, giving Harry Occlumency lessons must have been extremely hard and hurtful, which is why it would be hard for him. And as I said before, I believe Harry had such a hard time learning Occlumency because of the fact that he couldn't set aside his hatred for Snape.

Yes, I think that Snape was trying to prepare Harry for the worst. Being prepared was a big issue with Snape, he has had a lot of experience.. He gave his potions tests hard to prepare the students for their OWLS which they needed to get.. It would not have made sense to be easy and nice on him at this point, besides which Harry was lying to him (which Snape knew) and not cooperating to learn.. He let his hatred on Snape get in the way, which I can understand how it can happen,but he was doing himself no good, and yes wasting Snape's time..I think Rowling wants us to watch Snape carefully for what is to come, but not be too quick to judge:

i had also given that a fair amount of thought, but i decided that snape was giving harry "tough love" to prepare him
as for the no memory thing of being on the floor, i understood it as he just fell onto the floor and didn't notice till the spell was taken off of him

Why do you think that Snape had such a hard time teaching Occlumency to Harry?
maybe because harry looks so much like his father, and i forget but weren't there memories of his mom and dad that snape saw? that would be horrible for him (snape) to see

I think snape was being so hard on him because it was dangerous. He was acting on dumbledores orders but it was dangerous because if voldemort pried into harry's brain he could see snape was on dumbledores side against him. if he were to discover that snape would be in danger. Also snape was probably seeing how deep the connection was and telling dumbledore how far into his mind harry is seeing.