OK guys, welcome to VERSION 5 of the official forums R.A.B. discussion! As in the previous versions of the thread (v4, v3, v2, v1), all talk regarding R.A.B.'S IDENTITY goes here. In addition, please try to confine your discussion of R.A.B.'S ROLE to this topic -- I've noticed a bunch of "How will R.A.B. influence the plot of Book Seven?" threads springing up as of late, and I think we would do well to consolidate those separate conversations as much as possible (and reap the added benefit of creating more fertile ground in this thread, as the majority of fans seem to be in a state of general agreement regarding R.A.B.'s identity ).

If you are new to this thread and/or the forums, something to think on as you jump in -- while we obviously do not discourage opinions and new voices, please bear in mind that some members have been involved in this discussion for four months, and many arguments that you've seen throughout the entire HP fandom have already been voiced. If you have new evidence that Regulus Black is R.A.B., by all means go ahead, but the observation that there was a mysterious locket that might be a Horcrux in Grimmauld Place in Chapter 30 of OotP is not going to be received as such, to be perfectly honest. While I know (and completely understand!) that none of you all have any interest in reading four 20+ page archived topics, I encourage you to at least have a look through the first two or three pages of each thread, where the basic ideas up until that point are summarized.

If you have participated in this discussion before, please be patient with new members who are trying to get involved. There's nothing that pleases a new user more than some friendly conversation to get things started.

The last post was made by vulturemort:

who the [MOD EDITED] is R.B.A? [MOD EDITED] you R.B.A! Because of you, Dumbledore died!!! And if Harry can't find the Horcrux because he don't know where to search only because Dumbledore died and if Harry can't defeat Voldemort because Voldemort have a Horcrux, I will kill you R.B.A! AARRGGHH!

MOD EDIT: Please do not use caps, netspeak, or profanity. See Snapelover's post below. Your post has been edited.

In the previous thread I was all but convinced that Regulus Black was R.A.B... and that Kreacher accompanied him.

But now... after reading and rereading my notes... and a few of yours... I am beginning to think that it may very well be Mr. Borgin.

In the Pensieve Memory of Caractacus Burke... the Co-Founder of Borgin & Burke we learn that:

HBP(ch.13) Caractacus had purchased a heavy gold locket from Merope Gaunt-Riddle and he knew it had once belonged to Salazar Slytherin, paying her only ten galleons even though he knew it was priceless.

HBP(ch.20) Caractacus hired Tom Riddle when he was fresh out of Hogwarts to research and "persuade" owners of powerful, valuable magical objects to sell them to Burke. It surprised Burke that Riddle vanished one day without leaving word.

This is important!! It means that Borgin not only knew Tom Riddle, but knows of the locket and that Tom stole it !! He might also suspect that Tom killed Miss Hepzibah Smith.

As a collector of antiquities and of rare objects and it would be safe to assume that not only would he be aware of the historical value and purpose of each one... but that he is extremely well traveled and well read and therefore may also have knowledge of Horcruxes.

He may have also known that Tom Riddle was an orphan and had gone to the orphanage to look for Tom after he vanished. We don't know much about the man... but if he talked to Mrs. Cole or even Amy Benson he may have accidentally discovered the whereabouts of the cave.

We don't even know what his first name is... do we? I think J.K. Rowling is purposely not telling us.

In CoS(ch.4) When Harry goes "diagonally" and ends up in his "curiosity" shop he sees Draco and hides. I do not think Borgin knows Harry is there but Lucius seems to make Borgin extremely "nervous"... even before he steals back one of the gold galleons. Why? Is he terrified of Lucius... afraid of being associated with a known Death Eater... or does he know something we don't? He does see something in the box that intrigues him... excites him.

In CoS(Movie, Deleted Scenes)
He lifts the object out of the box... which Lucius immediately reclaims out of his hand... Borgin covetously mentions its "unique qualities... one wouldn't want to see it falling into the wrong hands".

Either way I found his behavior suspicious... and again in...

HBP(ch.6) When Draco visits his shop on some mysterious business... he leaves Borgin visibly shaken. Didn't Draco mention the Dark Lord... and show him something... his "Dark Mark"? Why would that bother him... unless...

I am sure that there is more to be revealed about Mr. Borgin.
We'll see !!

My only other thought, was that the "locket" that fell out of Dumbledore's pocket was actually the one Dumbledore meant to place back into the stone basin after retrieving the real one... but was distracted rescuing Harry from the inferi, and as ill as he was... simply forgot !! Then my idea that R.A.B. stands for "Remember Amy Benson" could be right !!

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Hapy Posting!

Wow, Tatesha, you certainly give me food for thought. I hadn't even remotely considered Borgin, but you make his actions sound worth investigating... he was certainly well poised to know what happened to the locket. He could also have been extremely interested in what Riddle was doing and where he had gone.
Good theory! I have to mull over it a bit now.

I think that Borgin is a great possibility. I've been thinking about this and trying to come up with a reason that he would do this. Does anybody have any ideas as to why Borgin would doublecross Voldemort.

The one thing I did note was that he was in on the Death Eaters entry into Hogwarts through the cupboard in his shop, so he seems to be at least cooperating with Voldemort. It's possible that he was forced to do this or afraid to show that he was a traitor. The other thing is that he is still alive, but I suppose that doesn't absolutely rule him out.

Good theory

Vulturemort:

You just said that the potion could not be changed that it is fact. DD says it cannot be Transfigured or Charmed or made to change its NATURE. Replenishing itself is changing its nature. It's nature was made to be DRUNK to empty the basin, and eventually kill the person. It was Voldemorts safe guard since he can't FEEL or KNOW when a horcrux is destroyed. If someone drinks the potion Voldemort is assured that the potion will kill someone. That someone, the ONLY one LV ever feared, was Dumbledore! He was afraid that DD might learn about his horcruxes and LV would want him dead, dead, dead! Voldemort was confident that only a great wizard who could possibly find the cave WAS Dumbledore.

I would say that you are making the assumption that the liquid replenishes itself with no fact to back up your theory. My fact is what DD has told us. If Voldemort made it to replenish itself as you say, then what was the point of putting the potion in the basin in the first place? If Voldemort were to come back and check up on his horcrux as DD says and at first glance see the green glow, wouldn't he think the horcrux was safe and have no reason to investigate?

When Voldemort did come back to retrieve the horcrux he would have no idea that the locket was stolen until he reached the basin and took away the liquid himself. Kind of shooting himself in the foot wouldn't you say? If the liquid was gone he would instantly know, even from a distance, that the green glow was gone and so was his horcrux. He would instantly know that something was wrong.

That's WHY it was ment to be DRUNK and the basin EMPTIED.

It would make sense that no one was there before Harry and DD. They were the first to arrive, the first to drink the potion and empty the basin, retrieved the REAL locket, and the switch was made some time as DD body was at the clock tower.

You are correct that Snape killed DD and that that was their prior arrangement, but DD knew from the last time he destroyed the ring horcrux that each time a horcrux was destroyed that that person would also be destroyed in the process. Snape saved DD last time and the arguement in the forest was that he might not be able to do it again and that DD expected too much of his powers.

With the possiblility of DD knowing that he would be killed retreiving this last horcrux he told Snape that should this happen he should kill him since he was dying anyway. DD knew that Voldemorts safe guards didn't just mess someone up since he almost died the last time. They were ment to kill. As Harry says "This is Voldemort were talking about"...

This way Snape killed two birds with one stone, the vow and keeping his cover with LV. Snape hated to have to do the actual deed of finishing DD off but he made a promise to DD in the woods and DD was pleading with Snape to go through with their plan.

Because of seeing what DD went through, actually loosing his life, Snape realizes that he will be killed destroying the locket horcrux.
Snape did the switch. I think DD told Snape mentally that he had it and must destroy it. Thats why he wanted Harry to bring him Severus Snape. Harry dosen't know how to destroy a horcrux and DD knows this. He dosen't know enough dark magic. Lets be realistic here. How else would DD be assured it would indeed be destroyed if he knew he was dying. His assurance was Professor Severus Snape who he TRUSTED.

Thats why there is no Regulus or Mrs. Black. RAB Is a Code name for Snape that only Voldemort knows.

As far as BORGIN are you forgetting that Borgin HAD to let the death eaters in because of Malfoy? Yeah, he was FORCED to do it I'd say.

Voluturemort - I'm sure that you agree that we will agee to disagree...

Lilly

I have to hand it to you. You are the most fun to argue with around here. We both seem to be stubborn enough to never agree on anything. So.....


I still say that we don't know enough about the potion to say what it's nature really is. The fact that it can't be removed other than by drinking is definitely part of it's "nature". That only refers to how it comes out of the basin. I would argue that it could be made to refill itself automatically and that would also be in it's "nature". What if someone only was able to drink a portion of the potion? Wouldn't Voldemort want it to fill again so that it wasn't easier for the next person that came along? The argument that Voldemort wouldn't check the basin is a bit rediculous in my opinion. If he was going there to check it, I would think that he would want to physically check it. Do you really think that he would go through all of the trouble of getting to it to just say, "oh the basin is full, that's good enough for me".

Also, could you explain why, if Snape is R.A.B., did he write the things he did in that note? Is Snape going to be dead long before Voldemort reads the note? I also would like an explanation for why Snape would leave the note at Hogwarts. How is it ever going to get to Voldemort? The note is a personal note of revenge. Why would he put it in a fake locket that Voldemort will never see? Is he hoping that someone will bring it to Voldemort? Here are some more while I am at it. How did Snape escape from Buck Beak to come back to switch the lockets? How did Snape explain that he needed to go back after they clearly had everything they came for, from his fellow Death Eaters' point of view? Wouldn't that be suspicious? How many code names will Snape have in this book? What is Snape's favorite color? Sorry. I'm getting carried away.

I know that is a lot of questions. I'm interested in hearing some thought on this from everyone. I can't count Snape out, I just find that this R.A.B. solution needs more explaining.

Hi guys! I think that Lilly P, Vulturemort and Illuminetti bring up good points. Perhaps I can bring something to the table too!

Illuminetti brought up a good point about the potion being in the basin to guard the real horcrux not a fake. I think that the real locket would still have to be in the basin for the liquid to replenish itself not a fake. If someone only drank half of the potion they would also have to drink the water which would alert the inferi and the inferi would kill the drinker. I think the potion is only one part of Voldemorts safe guard of the locket.

I think Lilly P brought up a good point. If Voldemort comes to the cave to check up on his horcrux he would be able to see the green glow from the waters edge of the cave as Dumbledore and Harry had.
He would know that his horcrux was safe before he actually reached the basin to check on it.

If someone gets away with stealing the real horcrux and the basin replenishes itself then from a distance, before getting to the boat, crossing the lake and getting to the basin to check his horcrux, Voldemort would have no reason to believe anything was missing. He wouldn't find out until he took the liquid away himself. And what a shock it would be to find the locket missing!

But if the basin never refills itself, then from the waters edge before getting into the boat, crossing the lake and checking the liquid himself, Voldemort would see instantly that something was terribly wrong with his horcrux.

I think that is why I have to agree with Lilly P that the potion was made to drink so that the basin would empty and stay empty, as Dumbledore had explained. That's why if RAB had been to the basin before Harry and Dumbledore it would have been emptied by him but it was not. It makes sense that Harry and Dumbledore were the first ones there and got the real locket.

Vulturemort makes a good point as to the note. Why leave the note at Hogwarts? Actually why leave a fake locket? He could have just left a note. Why in a locket? Because that person knew Harry would be looking for the locket he and Dumbledore just stole. Harry wouldn't be looking for a piece of parchment paper. Who else knew that Harry and Dumbledore were going to look for a horcrux? Snape knew that.

But why leave a note that Voldemort may never see? Why leave it at Hogwarts? Who else is going to somehow get this note to Voldemort? Harry? We won't know that answere until book 7 I think.

Snape knows of the sacrifice that Dumbledore made in trying to stop Voldemorts evil. Dumbledore chose to hunt and destroy Voldemorts horcruxes even if it ment death. Better death to him than to Harry. Snape has taken the horcrux to destroy it he knows he most likely will be killed in the process. As you say the RAB note wants revenge.

If RAB is Regulus, what was the purpose of his revenge? If it is Mrs. Black then her revenge could be the death of her son. If RAB is Snape then I say his revenge is tying to help bring down Voldemort for the death of the Potters and to redeem his soul.

I am stumpted on how Snape got back onto Hogwarts grounds tho. And what if the black huddle mass is a bunch of Hogwarts students around Dumbledores body?

The potion in the basin is a very good item for discussion because we know so little about it. We really can't say what it does or doesn't do. I don't think the locket was switched at Hogwarts, so I argue that it would refill. Lilly P and Illuminetti think the locket was switched at Hogwarts so they argue that it couldn't refill. There is nothing, regardless of what Dumbledore says about what is possible for removing the potion, that states for a fact that the potion does or doesn't refill on its own. We will have to wait to find out on that.

To further my point of view, for discussion's sake, I would argue that we don't know if the potion knows what is real and what is fake. We know that it was put there to guard an object. It was never stated that it knew what object was in the basin. Maybe that is the point of a fake locket. Perhaps the potion will not refill unless a locket is placed back in the basin. That is why a fake locket was placed there. It would make sense. The person that stole the locket could have simply put a note in the basin. Why put a copy of the original horcrux in there. Voldemort would instantly know it was a fake, since it isn't an exact replica. That means that they aren't trying to hide the fact that it was stolen. So then, is it possible that the locket triggers the potion?

This line of thinking brings up a question that may undermine what I'm arguing. Why is there a fake locket at all? If they wanted Voldemort to know that they had stolen the horcrux, why would they conceal it in the potion? Why would they put a fake in to make it look like it is still there? This is becoming more and more confusing. I really don't think it makes sense, due to the note, for the locket to be switched at Hogwarts, but I'm starting to wonder about the cave too. Perhaps illuminati is on to something with the accidental leaving of the horcrux.

I think that this discussion is great! I feel that now, at last, it is not just Vulturemort and I arguing back and forth. We are discussing something that hopefully we can get to the bottom of as best we can with the information we have from the books so far.

The thing about the fake locket and Voldemort knowing instantly that it was a fake, is that he would have to go to the basin and take the locket out as Vulturemort says. See that it was a fake and that all of his safe guards, the spells, giving of blood, drinking the potion for a slow or quick death, the inferi, the boat, the water etc. ALL of his safe guards were - well, STUPID, for a lack of a better word. He isn't as great a Dark Wizard as he thinks he is if a young Regulus or old Mrs. Black could get through it all. Which keeps bringing me back to the part where Dumbledore says Voldemort would think only a great wizard would be able to get through his defenses and to his horcrux. In my opionion I think he is right.

I just thought of something!!!! If Regulus had drank the potion to get to the locket and also drank the water (as that was part of what had to be done to get the inferi after him) then why wasn't Regulus' body with the inferi? Or Mrs. Black for that matter. Either of them would have become inferi. But Regulus was killed by the DE and Mrs. Black died 5 yrs. after Regulus. Harry was saved from the inferi by Dumbledore and the ring of fire.

Which brings me back around to thinking that Voldemort feared DD because he knew he was the person who would figure out where the cave and locket were. He was the one who had the knowledge of the cave. And DD was the one who defeated the Dark Wizard Grindlwal (sp) who had split his soul in two. DD already knew how to destroy a horcrux because he did it before. Thats why DD was adamit about no one speaking or reading about Horcruxes at Hogwarts. He didn't want history to repeat itself. But it did when Slughorn told Riddle about what Horcruxes were. If Slughorn hadn't of done that then Riddle wouldn't have known how to make them. Thats why Slughorn feels so guilty.

That's why I think Voldemorts cave trappings were set up with DD in mind. HE was the one Voldemort was safe guarding his horcrux from. Not Regulus or anyone else. I don't think LV would ever dream DD would bring an underage wizard like Harry with him because the boat was set up to recognize only one person. Dumbledore.

Illuminetti could be right about Snape going back to place the fake locket in the basin. That would certainly help my theory that the real locket was taken by DD and Harry in the first place.

But why would Snape do that? If someone else found out about the locket being a horcrux and found the cave and got to it before Voldemort then Snape would be risking another person getting killed by the potion, water and inferi. Why would he do that? Why would he want to be the cause of yet another death?

TRIWIZARD if I remember correctly Harry didn't see Snape leave Hogwarts grounds. He was too busy picking up twigs looking for his wand that he droped on the ground and thinking that it was too late that Snape had probley left the grounds by the time he found it.

Harry says that he saw Buckbeak circling the gates and assumed that Snape had apparated beyond them. Remember when DD and Harry were flying into Hogwarts after they saw the Dark Mark, DD took all the enchantments protecting Hogwarts off. And Snape also knew those enchantments when he let Harry in after Tonks brought him to the school.

Snape could have appriated back onto the school grounds.

Gotta go now and do homework. UGH!

This is all good stuff, I believe it was regulus more than burke or borgin, but u made a good point of it being burke. I believe it was regulus because in ootp, they mention the whole backround of how he was a death eater and how he backed out and was killed. They also mention a heavy un-openable locket when they were cleaning grimmauld place. They use the same word in hbp, a "heavy locket," plus they kinda give a hint of mundugus maybe selling it to aberforth. They also mention regulus in hpb, and ootp, which makes me believe that he might be the one. I've had a theory, but it's prolly not true:

Regulus might have been present at godrics hollow the night of the Lily and James murder, and i think it might be a possibility that voldemort asked him to kill james and lily, so voldemort could just get straight to harry. But Regulus fled, he might've already known about voldemorts secret, that's a mystery to me how he knew, but i think he found out and went to the cave accompanied with kreacher. They got the locket, but regulus might've been killed once voldemort told his followers what he did, or voldemort might've killed regulus himself. But kreacher took the locket, because he would be dishonoring the blacks, and brought it back to grimmauld place.

Well that's my theory, but I have a feeling that it's knowhere near being true in the end.

I like the idea of Regalus being at Godric's Hollow. It forces Regalus to make a decision about who he will side with. It would also be a bit tragic that Sirius held him in such low regard. Sirius said he had heard that Regalus got cold feet when he was asked to do something that he didn't want to do. He fled the Death Eaters and was killed. That would be a great direction for the story. The full explanation of that night is what I am most looking forward to in the new books.

From that point, the story of Regalus could go in a lot of directions. Maybe that is all there is to Regalus's story. Maybe he knew he was going to be killed by Voldemort, so he went after the horcrux. Maybe he went home to mommy and she did the dirty work. Who knows. It's an interesting thought none the less.

I would also like to dispute the fact that Regalus is Draco Malfoy's age. I have heard that his age could be anywhere from 15 to 19. There is quite a bit of difference in that age range and I don't think we know for sure that he is as young as some have said.

At first i didnt give Regulus Black any emphasis, but now I am afraid I have to think twice. But its not because of Regulus himself, its because of his company: Kreature. Why? Because of the nature of the adventure. You see, when DD and Harry went to the cave and to the island, DD told Harry to make him drink the potion and keep doing it even if he denies to drink it. Harry wanted to do so, but he couldnt because at one point DD's condition was severe and he wanted to drink some water for which made Harry fetch some water from the lake and as a result they were attacked by inferies. You see, even Harry, being a trustwarthy agent of DD could do exactly what he said. At last he had to go and fetch some water. Why? Because Harry was a human being and it is impossible for a human being to keep stuffing poisonous potion into another human being's mouth against his will. So, who else can do it without any hasitation: someone who is not a human being, like a house-elf like Kreature! As simple as that!!

So, from that we can make some conclusions:

1. Whoever RAB was, he was not alone, there was exactly two person in that adventure.

2. And those couple can be any of the following catagories:

A. One normal adult wizard/witch and one house-elf or any other magical creature.
B. One extraordinarily powerful wizard/witch, like DD, someone who is powerful enough to drink that very poisonous potion and can kick out of it to fight a bunch of inferies and one underage wizard like Harry.


But then again all these conclutions is based on one vital assumption: The haorcrux was switched before DD's beath, not after DD's death which is a completely different story.

Curious Question !!

In my version of the book there is no period after the "B".


Look here...


If it were indeed someone's initials wouldn't it be R.A.B. ?

Since I have the US version... would someone who has another PLEASE... look it up to see if there are just 2 periods or 3 in your version !!

Thanks... that would help me w/ my theory that it is a code and not necessarily a person.

MOD EDIT: I edited your image down to a link to save on bandwidth. Please keep this in mind next time you are putting up images. Thanks!

This is a good discussion!

lilly_P and Triwizard -- perhaps the potion's replenishment is one of those things similar to what happens to the Diagon Alley gateway -- after using it, reverting to its original state. I tend to agree with vulturemort's ideas on the nature of this type of magic and that the potion wouldn't know that the locket was fake as long as it satisfied the general description of what it was supposed to guard. So that could also explain why the basin didn't refill after the fake locket was taken out; it wouldn't refill until something was put back in it, perhaps...
My guess is that Voldemort wouldn't know if the locket has gone until after emptying the basin himself. Being the maker of the potion he may know how to neutralise it. The replacement locket and message becomes all the more poignant if the liquid seems undisturbed and Voldemort would have to drain the basin before finding out. The thief wanted to give Voldemort a painful blow, one that would come at the crucial moment of him actually needing the Horcrux, with as little advance warning as possible. The thief didn't care much about how long that would take either, he expected to be dead before Voldemort found out.

Was Borgin the one who stole it, I wonder. What reason would Borgin have had? If Borgin managed to hoodwink Voldemort in this way, would he not have hidden it in his own shop? He might even have been able to convince Voldemort that it had been left there when found out, that would have been easier than hiding it with the Blacks... besides, Borgin seems to be the kind of person who could not keep a major coup like that a secret after Voldemort was safely gone in 1981... and he was certainly greedy enough to have sold the locket again to a collector like Hepzibah Smith... no, I do not think it was Borgin after all, it must have been someone who died before Voldemort murdered Harry's parents, which points again at Regulus Black.

There is a good chance that Dumbledore had been weakened by his duel with Voldemort and the destruction of the Horcrux. It's even possible that the attempted to neutralise the Horcrux rather then destroy it; if such a thing were possible he would certainly have chosen to heal Voldemort's rent soul rather than destroy a piece of it irrevocably. That would also explain why he sought Harry's help: not only because Harry had to learn about the Horcruxes and had to learn the difference between a bad choice and deliberate evil, but also because Harry's innate power would have helped.

illuminetti -- You make good points. Snape could have a thousand names without flinching, he is a master at dissemination. However, it seems out of character for Snape to have written that he'd probably be dead soon. Even in a seriously Occluded state he had always maintained himself in a powerful position rather than cowering about. He had about just as much opportunity as Regulus Black but he was more in the public eye as well, it would have been harder for Snape to disappear without being able to give a good account of where he had been. Regulus, on the other hand, seems too weak and cowardly to pull of the theft but the picture changes when you consider his upbringing and the fact that a person reconciled with his own death can become quite fey.

Wow... lilly_P, where does it say that Grindewald had split his soul in two? Please tell me... I'd love to know more about it, and Grindewald's defeat by Dumledore! Did Jo Rowling say something about it in an interview?

vulturemort, I agree with what you said about Regulus's age. In my mind, Regulus can't be more than three years younger than Sirius. He'd have to be older than 17 in 1981 in any case to be a fully fledged Death Eater, although it is still possible that he was accepted because of his usefulness against Sirius, in the same way that underage Draco was accepted to do a special job. That would be a nice touch in the story too, I admit, but since I believe that Regulus is R.A.B. it does seem too young if he'd still been in school at that time of the theft. Personally, I think he was eighteen at the time of the prophecy in 1980, and died when he was nineteen.

Bumblebee I agree with you that Regulus was 19 at the time of his death.

I am fond the Regulus "Arcturus" Black and Kreacher Theory too. (Arcturus means "Run Away Star")... but his age does concern me.

Even though Regulus was in Slytherin while Slughorn was the Potions Master at Hogwarts... and a member of the Slug Club... I seriously doubt thet he learned of Horcruxes from Slughorn himself.

Slughorn made the mistake of telling Tom Riddle about them in c.1945... and I doubt he would have repeated that mistake... he may have told Mrs. Black tho... if she attended Hogwarts.

My difficulty with Regulus or Mrs. Black really doesn't concern the Horcruxes... tho he does seem a bit too young to know how to destroy one... Phineas Nigelus' Portrait could have helped out there. It has to do with locating the cave.

Dumbledore may have discussed the whereabouts of the cave with the Headmaster's Portraits... but I doubt it was prior to Regulus' or Mrs. Black's deaths... so Phineas Nigelus wouldn't have known about it yet.

Locating the cave took Dumbledore awhile... and he knew of its existance. The idea of an invisible Kreachure "Elf Tailing" Voldemort might explain that. But then if Kreachure helped Regulus or Mrs. Black destroy a Horcrux of Voldemort's why would he help Bellatrix betray Sirius knowing she is serving the Dark Lord?

Granted if Kreacher was the one who drank the potion that might explain why he's "nutters" ! And he did want "his" house back.

You asked "What reason would Borgin might have had?" I think he knows that Tom Riddle was NOT a PUREBLOOD... and he knows that Tom Riddle is Lord Voldemort. He may have felt that the 20 year old Tom Riddle stold Slytherin's locket away from him. He did in fact tell Riddle of Miss Hepzibah Smith and sent Tom to her home to charm her out of her heirlooms.

I think he had every intention of retrieving "his" stolen goods. I do not know that he expected to find that the locket contained a Horcrux. The cave may have been warded only to those seeking a Horcrux... like The Mirror of Erised.

You say he would have it in his shop... if he had indeed stolen it back. Well... maybe that is why I find his behavior so suspicious. Maybe it is in his "private collection"... and every time a Death Eater walks in... he expects to be discovered.

I am not convinced that it is either the Black's or Borgin. I am still considering the possibility that the locket that fell out of Dumbledore's pocket was the "fake locket" Dumbledore himself meant to put back into the stone basin... and Harry just assumed that it was the one they had retrieved. I believe that the real locket is still in Dumbledores pockets... and is buried w/ him in the White Tomb !!

I see flaws in every theory. And I am still waiting to find out if there are 3 periods or 2 in RAB !!

before i forgetR.A.B. is the american version, initials have periods after each letter

The theories I have read here are very intriguing. I wish I had more time to develop and include my own. (school takes up way too much time). And some questions I had for myself, well the answers I have found here are so obvious, especially who did Black take with Him?
Admittedly, i haven't spent time analyzing the potion in the basin. I think eveyone has debated their view almost flawlessly.
My point, or question...going on the theory that snape was able to take the real hoarcrux and replace it with the fake is this...how did he apparaiteback onto school grounds to take the real one after DD's fall?
Hermoine is well known for reminding Ron and Harry that no one can apparate or disapparate on Hogwarts grounds. DD lifted a charm/spell to allow himself and Harry to fly onto the grounds, not to apparaite. MOM and staff went to great lengths to strengthen the security of Hogwarts for student's safety. "..defensive spells and charms, and a complex array of countercurses..." as reported by the Daily Prophet.
It would take more than one simple spell to remove the protections that have been placed there. Especially in DD's weakened state flying as fast as he can to return to Hogwarts.

and now that I have typed all this, i recall that the spell was lifted in the great hall during apparation lessons., oh well...
hangs head and goes quietly back to her corner

I always had one question in my mind. Why will RAB be expecting to die?!!?

Well may be its that LV himself had made sure that he is going to die, and thats why he wants to take revange. If thats true than I can see only one man as RAB: D. Malfoy. Because in the HBP we saw that LV is furious with malfoy and has given him a task in which he was supposed to be killed. We, dont know wheather or not LV's intention was successfull, neither that we know what that task was (it can be other thanbringing DEs into Hogwarts), but we do know, LV wants D. Malfoy dead. And that makes him a possible suspect for RAB.

Alright.. *** SPOILERS ABOUND!!*** (sorry for the caps)

If you don't wanna know who is RAB.. don't read any further!

In the Dutch version the name of the family Black is Zwarts (this means black) and as you probably know if RAB is Regulus "Arcturus" Black than the initials in the dutch version would be RAZ.. and guess what...

it is.. so don't bother if it is Regulus "Arcturus" Black.. he is the person that stole the horcrux.. I think that we should discuss about what he was doing.

sorry if you didn't want to know but I warned you..

cya R.

RJ, I know.. bought the book today and IMHO the Dutch translators took an enormous risk. No way that JK told them to change the initials, that woul've leaked out and we would've known by now. It probably won't take long for us to get an explanation why they changed the initials.

And yes, there isn't anyone else in the Dutch book the initials could refer to, so it's a huge and unresponsible risk if you ask me.

I don't know if I posted this here or not, but I have been looking for the translation of the initials for some time. I am glad to see that it does in fact fit with the Black family name. Keep in mind that the initials could stand for both Regalus and his mother. We still don't know what her name was.

Regardless, the evidence is starting to pile up for Regalus or his mother. I really doubt that the note would be a code, as I have said many times. It just doesn't make sense for someone to leave a note and then hide their identity. A code would negate the purpose of the note, which was to claim responsibility for stealing the horcrux. If they were going to hide their identity, they would simply not leave a note. So, if we know that the name should directly reflect the persons name, and we know that the initials match the Black/Zwarts family name, then we have some good evidence to R.A.B/Z's identity.

Just to cover our bases, can we get the translation for some of the other prime candidates?

Borgin
Bones

By the way, I don't think that it was irresponsible to change the initials. The names change in translation and so the initials would also have to change. What else can they do? It wouldn't make sense otherwise to any Dutch reader. I'm sure JKR is well aware that the initial change would be a clue, but what else can she do?

illuminetti

I brought this theory up on page28? of R.A.B v4 and in other threads...

RJ_Vanna_sen- good point. Also the Norweigen translation had the same result. Black is translated to Svaart and the initials are R.A.S

Tatesha,

I have a feeling that Amy Benson would translate to Amy Benson in other languages. It is a name. Regalus Black becomes Regalus Zwarts because the word Black is translatable. It is not just a name, but a description and an english word. Someone can correct me if I am wrong about this. Does Amy Benson translate to something else in the Dutch or Norweigan versions?

If Amy Benson is Amy Benson in any language, then it would no longer fit when the initials change to RAZ or RAS. We have definitely been given a clue that will eliminate some possibilities.

Well I'm just going to throw something out here. Maybe the potion in the glass was the horcrux. DD, knowing he was going to die somehow, wrote the note. I know there are like a hundred holes in this theory, but I'll try and fix them and post back later.

I mean, it's not like we actually know what the horcrux was.

Now this thread is getting out of control. All the peole is saying that RAZ in place of RAB ensures that the RAB is Regulus Black, why dont we go for any easier explanations, like, printing mistake!!!!

And Volturemort, do you really think JKR will tell the Douch editors who RAB really is. Dont you think if that happens it will be more than just a change in the initials. Come on! If JKR had told even a vagabond who RAB really is it would have bursted out into open air in 24 hours! Do you think JKR will risk that just because it helps the Doutch translators! If RAB was Regulus Black, I dont think even then the Doutch translaters wont have any problems putting RAB as initials. If RAB turned out to be Regulus Black, they can just write down that in english Regulus A Zwart is actually Regulus A Black. Thats it! Its not like readers wouldnt accept it. I have read a detective story of Agatha Christie once (in my language) where a similar thing happaned and thats how they solved the problem. After all, no matter in which language you are reading, you have to be aware of, which language it has actually originated from.

And Volturemort, you have another problem, you dont read too many posts, for which you are coiled up with a question which was explained long ago. You keep asking why RAB has left the annonymous note to Harry. I allready have explained it, not once but twice!! Even if you go to the first page of this thread you will find it.

No need to get worked up Illuminetti. I've read your all your posts. I'm just asking for an explanation that I can agree with. Giving a theory doesn't make it so. I apologize for not stating that specifically.

Now, as far as the initials go, you guys are just being stubborn. There is absolutely no way that it is a printing error. That it is completely ridiculous. Do you think they accidentally changed all of the Dutch and Norweigan translated versions of the book incorrectly? No way. That was meant to be done. It isn't necessary for the translator to know who R.A.B. is, they could just be given the information that it should read R.A.Z in their language. No reveal is necessary. There is no way they are going to write a little explanation into the book. How would you feel if you read the book and spent a lot of time trying to figure out who R.A.B. was only to find out that it was actually R.A.Z. in some little aside in the seventh book? I would be mad.

Beyond all of that, the fact is that the initials were changed and we have not gotten a mass R.A.B. information leak. It is not a typo. This doesn't guarantee anything as far as R.A.B.'s identity. What it does is help us eliminate some explanations as being false and give further evidence in favor of a popular theory. We may have not even touched on the right solution yet.

By the way, your spelling of "Dutch" is getting a bit close to a feminine hygiene product that I don't think the "Dutch" editors would be happy about.

gaiamama, Thank YOU for answering my question about the periods !! However... my "scholastic" version which is typeset differently from the rest of the text has just 2 !!

RJ_Vanna_sen, Vulturemort and TXD23... well what can I say... in my opinion that just complicates an already complicated topic further... and I thought we agreed in an earlier thread that the "typesetting" in the British version was the one we would base our assumptions on... did we not? English is Jo's spoken, written and creative language... and a lot gets lost or added in translation !! She is a wonderful "word wizard"... but I truly believe she meant to cast her spells in English !!

It seems to me that the publisher's did take some liberties, "Black" as a last name should remain "Black" as a last name... "B" should remain a "B"... with or without a period !!

When I travel... my last name remains the same... and so do my initials !!

Just another opinionated opinion !!

OH... and
illuminetti
Vulturemort's is just one other opinionated opinion!!

Slow down, ENJOY !!

I'm in a provocative mood today so let's put the cat amongst the pigeons!

Is there any way in which RAB could have been able to steal the horcrux without drinking the liquid? Would he have been able to simply pluck the locket from the basin if he possessed - the dark mark!

The force-field that keeps the order from rescuing Dumbledore and Harry could only be passed through by wearing this most sinister of tattoos, I think it's entirely feasible that any death eater (as I think RAB is likely to have been) would have been able to retrieve it in the event of Voldemort's incapacty.

FAO MODS

This may well do better somewhere else, please feel free to move as necessary - thanks.

Darth, I like your idea. Voldemort clearly thought himself far superior than even his own death eaters. It wouldn't shock me to learn that someone possessing the Dark Mark could simply take the horcrux without having to drink the liquid as Dumbledore did.

The only thing I still can't get over is I can't imagine Voldemort simply mentioning it in passing to one of the death eaters. I mean, if any one of the current death eaters knew how to bring him back through the use of a Horcrux, or even knew of their existence, they'd know that he wasn't dead and would definitely try to bring him back. The fact that they didn't leads me to believe none of the current death eaters knew of the Horcruxes existence.

Additionally, even if someone had figured out that the horcruxes existed, to wind up at that cave they would have had to do serious investigation into Voldemort's past, something else I can't imagine him mentioning to a death eater. Every time I try to figure out who RAB is, all this conflicting information makes my head hurt.

I dont think VL will ever reveal his horcrux-secret to anyone, not even his faithfull DEs. Because, this little information is the end of everything. VL's power depends mostly on his horcruxes. Tell me, will you ever have told about your horcruxs to your DEs, if you had been VL. Its his invaluable possetion, how can he take the risk of revealing about it to other people. Yes, I believe that there may be a few most trusted DEs of him (like Snape or Wormtail), to whom he might have revealed this secrets but that number is very few.

i think there is nooooooooo doubt about the fact regulus is rab also please could some one verify my spelling of regulus. It was a dark day sluggy told riddle about horcruxes. a very dark day

i dont think R A B is definitly male or even human. They could be a goblin a hag a hobgoblin a vampire a ghost or a (Crazy disobedient) house elf. Though it would not be an inferi as they are dumb dumb dumb also thier Iq must be like -10

Also are you saying that the locket change was made after harrys excursion because i thought it was fake when dumbledore found it he was just to potion drunk to noice. I also renounce my claim of regulus being R a b and rab is an anagram of B.A.R as in bar of gold but that may be quite stupid. what if RAB got old voldy knock knocking on there door before they had the chance to make the horcrux go boom boom boom a doom boom yo

*Sigh* I have a few theories on R.A.B.

Regulus Black, as many people suggested. It is the only logical answer, as JKR said she didn't want to add any more characters; she wanted to end the story not begin new ones.

However, if it is not Black, it would have to be a nickname of some sort.

The Dark Lord appeared on the letter, therefore it is probably an old death eater.

very good arguments but rab may not be human. followers of voldemort can be anything like werewolves and stuff

WOW! Everyone is certainly passionate about this thread!
(By the way, I LOVED, LOVED, LOVED the movie. It was fantastic)!

Vulturemort, please don't correct other peoples spelling, they could be from another country and doing the best they can in writing the language. The "Dutch" remark to Illuminetti backfired on you, you didn't come off as being superior to him/her but quite the opposite.

Now, if we can get back to the discussion of RAB. As I have mentioned before what if the RAB inititals mean nothing in finding out who RAB is? I think that the body of the note explains everything. RAB could be a name only Voldemort knows.

Snape was a death eater, he passed info to Voldemort, perhaps that was his code name to Voldemort when he was in the DE.

Forget that he called himself the HBP, Voldemort didn't know that and that was when Snape was a kid in school anyway. In school, my girlfriends and I pass notes. I used a code name for a guy I liked, just incase someone got the note they wouldn't know who I was talking about. Also I use a code name for myself. I sign my code name and then she knew it was from me. Same as we do on this site. We don't use our real names. We use our code names.


Same thing with Snape and Voldemort. I think RAB is Snapes code name to Voldemort and only he knows it. Snape was a DE, he wanted revenge. "To the Dark Lord". Perhaps his revenge was for the Potters death and his revenge is trying to make things right again by destroying the horcrux.

I have to say one more thing about listening to HBP on tape performed by Jim Dale. I listened to this over and over again. He said (talking as DD) ONE OF "THEM" COULD NOT HAVE DONE IT.
This is when DD is talking to Harry about getting the horcrux from the cave.

Does this mean that Dale made a mistake? There are only three people who see a copy of JK's script before anyone. JK, the publisher and then Dale to perform. If anyone out there has his CD of HBP check this out.

He may have let that slip. I think he may have more background of the story from JK so he has an understanding of the "whole" picture of the series and for his narration of the characters. Maybe there IS more than one person to RAB. Maybe it is a name of a group.

Which would bring me back to my first theory. Amelia Bones, Emmeline Vance and Snape.

I don't think LV would reveal his horcruxes to anyone. I think it was Snape who may have alerted DD that this is something he thought LV had done. Especially if he was the one who was at the Potters house the night they were killed. He could have seen what LV had done to Harry and knew Voldemort was making horcruxes.

Someone else was there that night. Who told DD what had happened at the Potters house? Hagrid was alerted by DD to go and get Harry. Hagrid pulled Harry out of the ruins of the house after it was blown up himself. How did they know this happened? Someone was there. Someone who couldn't get to the Potters in time to save them. Snape had a life debt he owed James, he failed in his attempt to save them. He would have failed with Harry too if Lily hadn't put a charm on Harry. The life debt is now transfered to Harry. That's why Snape has saved him so many times.

I think RAB is Snape.

This thread has really devolved. It has become a humorless fight, in which people have become so attached to their theories that they refuse to look at the evidence. How can we possibly just throw away clues like the translation of R.A.B.? We spent days and days turning our books upside down and looking for badgers, but something that hits us right in the face is simply thrown aside.

I know now that there is no point posting theories here because it is the same group arguing the same set of points over and over. Seriously, if you look back through the posts, they all just go in cycles of the same. We are now back to Emmeline Vance, Amelia Bones, and Snape. It seems like everyone is doing backflips to avoid the obvious clues in order to be "the one who figured out the twist". The more complicated and conditional the posts get, the more people enjoy them. However, that also reduces the possiblity of getting it right.

Illuminetti,

Sorry about the "Dutch" bit. It simply struck me as being funny in the context of your sentence. I wasn't aiming to belittle you. I was just trying to lighten up the mood here. Contrary to what Lilly P says, I'm not an arrogant jerk here to make myself feel important. I don't need to get into the hypocracy that is Lilly P (she doesn't seem to like me)

TRIWIZARD

I like the idea that Snape was at the house and alerted DD. I talked about this in another thread, but I can't remember which. I also agree that LV would not reveal his horcruxes to anyone. He wouldn't do it intentionally anyway. Could it be that Regalus overheard something about the horcrux and that is why he was killed? I know I've come up with about three or four reasons why Regalus was killed, but bear with me.

Lilly P

Are you a believer in the whole dropped note and locket scenario? I don't recall your explanation for why Snape wrote a note to Voldemort and then left it on Dumbledore. I'd be interested in what you think of that.

So........

I think I'll go on hiatus for a bit. I'll probably stop back in when we get back to the DaVinci font discussion. Have fun ripping me while I'm away.

Wow, I got away without a telling off there!

I'm with you on the importance of the initials - so far we have had no evidence whatsoever that RAB is Snape. Sure, there are a lot of theories that make it potentially possible but it's all wild and unsubstantiated speculation.

Ultimately we will not agree until Book 7 is released but in the meantime we need to go back to what we can say for definite which is, sadly, not a lot:

* RAB is not Harry, and probably not Dumbledore (see the numerous "Dumbledore swapped places with Wormtail/Fudge/Hagrid/Rosmarta" threads to eliminate any doubt)
* RAB stole the real horcrux
* Voldemort would kill anyone who discovered he had made a horcrux
* Regulus Black is dead
* RAB thinks s/he will die
* Death Eaters (including Snape) refer to Voldemort as the Dark Lord
* RAB knows that the locket is Voldemort's horcrux but, importantly, seems unaware of others
* RAB is an acronym known to Voldemort
* RAB is a member of the Black household... I'm kidding there!

So, in summary: RAB was at one time a death eater and discovered Voldemort made a horcrux. He/her/it believes this fact wil lead to their death and their initials are known to Voldemort.

This thread is at best amusing. It seems to me that everybody is trying to come up with the most twisted clever sounding reason that they can think of.

I think everyone is missing the point here that Harry Potter has always been a children's book, no matter how dark it gets. This isn't the Da Vinci Code so we should stop treating it like it is. I think we need to get back to basics when it comes to trying to work out puzzles like this. The character has some needs that have to filled for the theory to work.

1) The person is most probably someone already mentioned in the books.
2) The person is most probably a Death Eater who tried to escape ranks.
3) The person is probably someone who distrusted Dumbledore (otherwise they could have just gone to him for protection)
4)The person is most probably someone who is already dead.

Now with those points in mind there are very few characters who fit that bill. Regalus is the only person who I have come up with, that is credible. I know some people think that is far too easy but subtly has never been JK's strong point. Every major event in the books is hinted at strongly almost all the way through.

I know I could be wrong so that's why the probably's are there in the points and I am open to other suggestions. I just think everyone is trying too hard to make this more then it is.

After this over-120-page disscussion on RAB I have managed to be sure about one thing. RAB can be deducted by many means: by handwrting, by history, by the sorting of dark mark, by seeking the people who is closest to VL, by mesuring the wizarding power of different charecters, by trying to guess the numbers of the people who represents RAB and so many other ways of reasoning that has been mentioned by different members in this thread. Some of the reasoning is very strong, some are not very strong, some are ......well normal. But all of them are more or less effective. But there's one reasoning which I am preety much sure is absolutely out of of the way and that is Da-Vinci-resoning. I am absolutely sure that this has nothing to do with RAB. You dont believe me? Well, then, just wait two years untill the Book-7 will be released and then you will understand how right I am! I know this will upset a few mambers (not a lot of them, by the way!), but well thats how it goes.

Why you ask? Well, you see, sometimes you just have to prefer your emotions rather then logic. Although, I know, logic is the centre of everything , but there are excptions and this one of them. Just sit back and think, will JKR ever bring any code-breaking-thing in his book?! Is she that kind of writer. She is not Dan Browen; she doesnt write any futuristic code-breaking,science fiction story. She writes Harry Potter. Thats what she is good at. She is not going to bore the readers by any obscure coding system, is she! She is much more classier than that. If she brings Da-Vinci-font into Harry Potter, it will be the biggest upset of the century!!!!

So sorry, Volturemort, thats how I see ur argument.