I've asked this question before and got no reply. I think it's significant and since I can't find the right place for it, I'll start a new topic. If I was wrong in doing so, please just place this where it's most fitting. But I'm re-listening to OOTP and something Aunt Petunia said stopped me. I can't think of the exact quote and maybe I'm reading too much into it but when she talks about the dementors (sp?) she says something like "I heard that awful boy tell her about it." Now Harry says "If you're talking about my Mum and Dad, why don't you say their names?" But Aunt Petunia took a bit to say "her" as if she had to think on what to call her. Now nothing about James makes me think "awful". Why couldn't she have just said "him" like she said "her" for Lily? Maybe I'm taking it too far but in support of the Lily/Snape theory, I think she was talking about Severus. From what we know about him when he was younger, he was a scrawny, greasy haired boy and into dark magic. That would constitute "awful boy" don't you think? Just the way she said it, I don't think she'd call James "awful boy" when she could easily call him, "him". What do you guys think?

Not to be rude, but no way, Jose.

It can't work. Jo wouldn't introduce such a huge idea in the last book. It'd be too startling, too hard to do unless the book was uber-long.

And James is Harry's father. We know that. I mean, he looks like Harry.

Sorry,
~Gerry's Gurl~

Well Harry is James' son, that is unquestionable. But I don't think that that was what MsProfSnape was suggesting.

I really don't think that she was talking about Snape though. Petunia hates magic, and that's why she called James "awful"

I really don't see this - and after all, in any of the books has she ever referred to either Lily or James by their names? I think she just held them both in contempt...

And another more important question --- how would Aunt Petunia even have been in contact at any time with Snape? Especially since she doesn't like wizards. Oh wait, that theory, no, I don't buy that theory anyway.

Besides, I think I read at Jo's site something that hinted strongly that it was James she overheard.

Well the more I think on it, the more I could be wrong. But firstly, I in no way meant that James isn't Harry's father. Of course James is, I know that. But I just meant that maybe Snape had come to visit Lily one holiday or during summer and Petunia had heard them talking. JK herself has hinted strongly that Snape had feelings for Lily and it's possible they had something going on for a bit, whether just really good friends or leaning toward something more before something unknown happened to stop it. Maybe Lily finally giving into her feelings for James. Although Snape yelling at Lily in his memory proved he might have started being angry at her first. Or maybe it was just a secret crush. Just a theory.

Snape couldn't have visited Lily, he hated her. But I see what you mean that could be a reason for Snape hating Harry and James, James married Lily and Snape got angry. He probably joined the Death Eaters to kill them (James and Harry I mean) and that could be a reason for them going into hiding, Dd might have known that Snape wanted revenge. It's possible, I guess.

Petunia would have referred to James as 'that awful boy' because he was the very symbol of magic, wizardry, and what happened in her sister's life that scared her and left her to jealousy. And we know that she owuldhave not mentioned them by first names because they are the 'unmentionable' in the household. I don't think that this part was a reference to Snape.

I think it's an ok idea. And one reason why. Agent 0042 said that Petunia doesn't like wizards. How do we know she didn't like them back then? Until Lily got her letter I seriously doubt they even knew the Magic Community existed. And just because she was jealous of the attention Lily got doesn't mean she immediately started to hate all Wizarding kind. And with that said, I do think it's likely that Petunia was talking about Snape. We don't know when Snape started to hate Lily, we don't even know when she started to hate him. All we know is he might have had feeligns for her. So whats' to stop him going to her house in the holidays? I reckon he would have donned Muggle clothes to see her if he trully did like her. And Petunia, growing more and more jealous as the years went by, also became jealous of the boys fighting for Lily and so when Snape visited - or even James - she had it in her head that he was awful and so from that day forth called him that. Or them that.

Hell, Petunia could be talking about someone completely different. We don't know that, so to say it's unlikely for it to be Snape is silly. We have no idea who it could have been. Yes all clues point to James but we could be wrong. It's a 50/50 theory and I doubt we'll ever find out who she was talking about.

Aunt Petunia always talks about james being a weirdo, drunkard, unemployed and what have you, so i'm sure that she's have no problem sinking so low as calling him awful, it's not like an uber-offence to be called awful, and i would think that that is what Petunia thinks about James, that he was awful.

I doubt Snape would even talk to Lily Potter. Although some people say he did love her, I would think that he would keep it a secret if he did, since he's in Slytherin. Have you noticed that Snape likes to keep his pride intact? Now if he went around talking to a "mudblood" like Lily while being in Slytherin...that'd be a bit...errrrr...

He could've been talking to her in secret, yes, but after that pensieve incident after he called her a mudblood publicly, would she want to anymore? They probably weren't at Hogwarts while they were talking, and I honestly don't know why Lily and Severus would meet up outside of school. Unless there's something I missed in the last six books...heh. That would be kinda cute, admittedly. Keep in mind that James Potter was an "awful boy" because, uhh, Aunt Petunia pretty much hates all witches and wizards.

I totally agree with this theory and i do not think that all the clues point the boy being James.

Why does Petunia not reply when Harry says 'if you're talking about my mum and dad just say their names' or whatever she says. If I remember rightly Harry notices that she is unusually pale ..i can't remember the exact quote on this one but I'm quite sure she is not herself straight after that comment from Harry.

In addition Aunt Petunia is saying that she found out about Dementors, through a boy explaining what they are to Lily.

This is the evidence that convinced me. Lily only started liking James in her 6th year. She detested him before that. So for the boy to have been James, it must have been in Lily's 6th or 7th year.

But this does not corrolate. Would it really have taken Lily 6 years to realise that such things as Dementors exist? The answer is no.

This conversation would have taken place in her lower years, 1st or 2nd, when she had not yet heard of Dementors. She did not even talk to James then. Therefore it is highly unlikely that the 'awful boy' is James.

It is much more likely that Snape, living in a muggle town would have been having a conversation with Lily about what Dementors are.

Thats how I see it anyway.

the boy is james because petunia says (i says on italian)
"l'ho sentito dire da quel ragazzo"says petunia
"se intendi il mio papà e la mia mamma puoi usare i loro nomi"
so isn't piton but james for me no??

mikipez, I appreciate you taking part in this discussion, but I'm afraid that I really must insist that you try to use English. If you're having trouble translating, you might try using an online translator such as Babelfish before you post. It's not ideal, and the translations are far from perfect, but the vast majority of the users of this forum will not understand you if you post in Italian.

I'm almost sure that the boy was Snape. When Petunia speaks about James, she uses his surname. Young Snape might have been described "awful' by her. I have my theory that Lily and Snape might have known each other before Hogwarts (maybe they lived in the same neighbourhood), that's why she defended Snape in SWM. I don't believe he hated her. He never tells bad things about her, in fact he tells nothing about her. That's suspicious. Besides, I guess he's the spy who told Dumbledore that the Potters were endangered and came to him with remorse. Not because of James that much: much more because of Lily.

I think everyone is being far too harsh on this theory. In fact, I think it's great! Here is the exact quote:
*after Petunia told Vernon what Dementors were, Harry asks her how she knows that. Petunia answers*:


Now, why oh why would JK put that small, seemingly insignificant sentence of "If you mean my mum and dad, why don't you just use their names?" said Harry loudly in there? Perhaps, as MrsProfSnape suggested, Petunia was not referring to James at all when she used the term "that awful boy". Perhaps she was referring to someone else. Whenever Petunia has referred to James in the past, she has referred to him as "that Potter boy". Why all of a sudden is he "that awful boy". I don't think he is.

Is it possible that Snape and Lily knew each other outside of Hogwarts? Let's think about this. Snape lived with his muggle father and witch mother. His father was clearly the dominant parent in the household (as can be seen in HbP in 'Snape's worst memory'). Therefore, we can assume with great probability that Snape and his parents lived in the muggle world.

Now, we know that Lily and her parents lived in the muggle world. So, is it possible that they knew each other before Hogwarts? Yep. Is it possible they talked on summer vacation (or interment vacations if Snape bothered to return to his home)? Yep. That would make total sense. And ofcourse with Snape's lousy attitude and wierd looks, Petunia would think that Snape was an "awful boy".

I simply love discussing this Snape and Lily thing in the Snape Loved Lily chat. I am such a believer that there is way more to the two of them than meets the eye!

Yes, i think it's highly significant that Aunt Petunia looks 'horribly flustered'. Thank you for the direct quote Lily Potter. Why would she look so flustered otherwise. The only explanation I see is that the 'awful boy' cannot be James Potter. Maybe Dumbledore's letter said not to tell Harry about Snape....maybe there's more to Dumbledore's reminder 'Remember my last'.

I think that there is actually more to it than that. I have a quote of J.K. Rowling's...

David Moulds for the News of the World - How does Aunt Petunia know about dementors and all the other magical facts she knows?

JK Rowling: Another very good question. She overheard a conversation, that is all I am going to say. She overheard conversation. The answer is in the beginning of Phoenix, she said she overheard Lily being told about them basically.

Is that true?

JK Rowling: Yes. The reason I am hesitant is because there is more to it than that. As I think you suspect. Correctly, but I don't want to say what else there is because it relates to book 7.

You know how JKR writes, she's always throwing in things that we look at, make assumptions, and never think of it again. I think that this may be one of those times. I'm not saying it was Snape, I'm just saying that this was a good theory.

I think this makes perfect sense that Snape would have feelings for Lily. It would also explain why Tom said "stand aside silly girl" I can see it as "snape give me the prophecy and you will have the girl" kind of thing. It could also explain some of the dislike of Harry, he is hte product of one who he detests and the one he loves

i think that 'awfull boy' is snape and not james because i think that therer was a secret relationship going on between them, remember she defended him in OotP, Snape's Worst Memory!!

Excellent point moonflower. I had never thought about that before. Brilliant!


Yes, and as other people have pointed out, why would that have been Snape's worst memory? Presumably the Marauders had duelled with him before. In fact, we're given the idea that this happened regularly. So which part of it made it the "worst"? I always had wondered about that title, and at first I just thought that it had been because it was cut off before the worst of it happened, like maybe his pants were taken off in the end. Which in retrospect doesn't give enough credit to JKR as an author. There must be more to it than that.

I might be getting completely off topic, but Aunt Petunia hated her sister. Jealous was my presumption, and it still is. Lily was allowed to go to Hogwarts, got a letter and everything and Petunia didnt and got jealous. So all those years she harbored hate for Lily and James. I'm guessing at one point or another Petunia met him. He's a wizard too, and anything related to wizards, in Aunt Petunia's book is awful. There are many theories on why Aunt Petunia holds grudges against Lily and never calls her by her name, its always "her", but I think it goesthe same way with James. Petunia would just call James "him" or in this case "that awful boy." Awful because, thats what she thought he was....

Now if that made absolutely no sense, please feel free to tell me so and I'll try and be a bit more accurate about my facts and such. Thanks.

For me, it is likely that the awful boy is Snape. As it has been pointed out, would Lily only hear about dementors in sixth year? And, moreover, I don't think James would talk of Azkaban and Dementors to Lily, doesn't he?

I mean, if I talk with a girl, I won't talk about a murderer and a horrible jail. But Snape could be the kind of guy talking about that.

No way do I think that Snape is"that awful boy."
Aunt Petunia probably called James that because she disliked all wizards.And you never will know what Lily and James did and didn't talk about.They could of discussed dementors.Harry talks to Ron and Hermione about everything,even the bad things.

This theory is fascinating and opens up to many suppositions. But me too, I don't think Snape was the awful boy. Petunia said so because maybe she hoped that her sister would settle with a muggle, normal boy. This kind of marriage would have had a normalizing effect on Lily in Petunia's opinion, maybe. The awful boy is James, who is a pureblood wizard, one who lives out of the muggle-normal world and knows little about Petunia's world. Snape, being a half-blood wizard, was probably well integrated in the Muggle world -as Hermione was- having lived in it for at least 11 years, then all the holidays for seven years. Although unpleasant and grumpy, Snape could have been -by Petunia's opinion- a more acceptable candidate for dating her sister.
And after all, jealousy is something that definitely belongs to Petunia's character, so it's not so weird that she calls her sister's boyfriend "awful boy". I'm sure Lily, too, wasn't crazy about Vernon .

Witchmom )O(

maybe she was talking about harry, maybe she heard harry talking about dementors when he is asleep like when he was talking about cedric.
and if she was talking about james why were they talking about them where anyone they know had his soul sucked, well it's really an interesting thread.

Wow It was really keen to catch that MrsProfSnape. I only read the book once, but since Petunia was talking about magic things that part stuck with me (it was just shocking to hear her say such things lol) But I think you might be right on. We know Lilly and Snape must have known each other... known each other well, I think. From what JK added about Lilly being such a brilliant potions student in the 6 book I gathered Snape and Lilly had to have been good friends as Snape, obviously, is very good at potions and must have helped lilly along, or studied with her during their years in school.

Lilly and snape's friendship almost seems to be the basis of the entire story... If it weren't for Snape's lothing of Jame's Potter, his school enemy, who stole lilly from him, Snape may never have given up the prophecy which he over heard knowing lilly was involved... but so was james and their son... Harry, a mix of good and bad in snape's oppinion I would guess.
Plus, I believe Snape was in the potter's house the night voldemort came... {the memory Harry saw during occlamency (sp?) lessons with snape with the baby and the parents}. If snape was there, it could be he was there to protect Lilly.

So, I don't doubt Jk would hold back this important underlining story until the end. She's dropped hints all through the books and she'd want to finish with a bang.... so unlike what someone posted earlier, this wouldn't be too late to bring out these hidden details.


Snape is good

It's very refreshing to hear from someone who has only read the book once! It means your opinion is more instinctive, in the sense that you haven't had the chance to muddle up your thoughts by re-reading and over analysing, like I have done!

It's always interesting, and I recently stumbled upon a post I made as a serious newbie, where the idea of Snape loving Lily was natural and obvious to me. Forum debates, fanfic and re-reading can muddle things up sometimes.

I have to say, after reading that interview, I've been realising that I am becoming more and more convinced. It's just ... funny, how so many things fall in place the moment you assume that Snape knew and loved Lily.

Also, what I find interesting about the piece LilyPotter quoted, is that Jo is forcing us unabashedly to remember the previous time Aunt Petunia mentioned Harry's parents. Her attitude and the way in which she treated Harry couldn't have been more different. She was focused on Harry the first time. She was shouting like a lunatic, and she seemed as though she had wanted to say it all to Harry for years. She wasn't in a daze, lost in thought - she was addressing him very directly.

The second time, though, she's acting completely different. She's lost in her own thoughts, and she barely notices Harry's reference to his parents, which, in any other circumstance would have angered her. Now, however, she's horribly flustered by the memory of someone... She was nothing near flustered the last time she mentioned Harry's parents.

Also, in that same evening, Harry is struck, for the first time, by the fact that Aunt Petunia is his mother's sister. A barrier falls away, and call me crazy, but something about the whole thing feels strangely like Jo is trying to make a point about that - about the fact that the Muggle and wizarding world is more connected than it might seem, especially concerning Lily and Petunia's time together as kids. There's more to that time stretch than meets the eye...

Add the clues that the awful boy might be Snape, and his strange presence in Harry's life, and I can't help wondering where it all started. Could Tobias Snape have known the Evanses?

Even though I do think the Snape/Lily Theory is possible, I think this was just a way to have Aunt Petunia to refer to James without actually saying his name becasue she dislike dhim so much. I'm dying to find out what there is "more to Aunt Petunia than meets the eye" about. Aunt Petunia has become such an important character to me ever since I heard that she has more to her in the seenth book. So when I read the fifth I felt as though this was some huge clue as to why. Well after rereading it several times many theories have been developed in my mind, each as crazy as the next. So I've taken to joining in on others theories. Thankfully we will eventually have our questions answered.

You’re right! It is very very significant! I am almost SURE it’s Snape. I mean from what we have read about James he was fairly good-looking and likeable. As for Snape, I mean I don’t want to offend any “Snape-Admirers” but just from his hooked nose and greasy hair – if you are a Petunia-ish person I’m pretty sure you’d think he was awful.

It's a fact that Lily and James didn't really get along with each other up until they were in the fifth year.

So if it was Lily and James talking, it's unlikely they'll be talking about dementors because if they're already talking to each other, they must've been past their fifth year, more likely in latter part of their sixth year or onwards. If that's the case, they don't have a reason to be talking about demetors. I mean, why would they be talking about it? They must have known about that long ago.

On the contrary, it's not impossible that Snape would have talked to Lily about dementors because he's fascinated with Dark Arts, right? And Snape seems to fit the "awful boy" title better than James. If I'm not mistaken, Petunia calls James "that POtter boy", right?



Of course, I know there's still a loop in the theory but it seems to fit things into place if Snape really was that "awful boy". Hay... I don't know anymore... The thing with Harry POtter books is you can't expect anything. You can't even analyze anything. There's bound to be a loop.

First, earlier in this thread it was mentioned that if that awful boy was Sirius, well, Petunia would have known who he was when he escaped from Azkaban. She did not; it was not Sirius.

Second, Remus is a bit tight-lipped about everything, I believe he knows much more about Lily and what when on. In the POA movie he goes on about her on the bridge, which did not happen in the book. That is a "tell" of something. It could have been Remus that was that awful boy Petunia met, too. He is super reluctant to get into a relationship with Tonks due to his being poor, dangerous and a werewolf...could it also be because he is afraid he might hurt the one he loves by accident? Could that have almost happened before with Lily? I don't know.

Third, Snape is an enigma when it comes to Harry. There is SO MUCH more than hatred for James going on in Snape's persona. He allegedly changed his whole life after he realized who Voldemort was going after. Since I don't believe that his alliegence with the good side is a facade, I must conclude he had feelings for Lily. She may not have reciprocated those feelings, but we see in Snape's Worst Memory she is not afraid to stand up to big, bad James and his mate Sirius to protect Snape. It was Snape's Worst Memory and he did not want Harry to see it, thus he hid it in the Pensieve right in front of Harry. Weird. Almost like he could only bear to be without the memory for the shortest time possible. Weird again.

Both my second and third ideas are still wide open (in my mind anyway). Both show more about Lily and how popular we know her to have been, and her popularity is canon.

I'd never even thought about that before but im pretty sure that she meant James, although my friend reckons there is something more than meets the eye with the whole Lily/Severus thing oh well i guess we'll find out in book 7

Aunt Petunia never liked james so that could be why she that awful boy. but your right about when she said lilly.

i don't think lilly ever went any-where name snape too.

Well, sorry for those who do not agree, but I am 100% convinced that Petunia is indeed talking about Snape, when she talks about 'her and that awful boy'...



In Book 7, Snape is talking about Dementors with Lily, while Petunia is spying on them...

So, MrsProfSnape, well done! It is indeed Snape



xx

Oooh yes! I think Snape did something bad to poor Petunia and she hates him
now. Or that could be James. It was James!!!! (that was my friend) it was!!
i love himm!!!. My friend wishes to do this .

But why would she talk about Snape? She didn't knew him, right? And she hates James.. I'm not saying the theory isn't right, I just wanted to point a few things.
I think it's very clever to think of something like this.

She did know Snape because if your read Snape's memory.,Pertunia was there pretty much all the time he was getting to know lily before hogwarts. I think it also shows harrys ability to jump to conclusions because he says "if you're talking about my dad...." when she wasn't. He's always trying to defend hios dad isnt he?

Yeah that's true, he is.. but not when he has read Snape's memory. I might haven't really noticed that when I was watching the movie, Petunia was in Snape's mind..

I do believe that Petunia was referring to Snape. I think that they were talking together on the playground and lived near each other. Petunia would have I think hated Snape for drawing Lily closer into the magical world; a world Petunia could not be a part of.

I totally agree with you Brigid. It was evident all through that chapter that Petunia really didn't like Snape especially for befriending Lily. Lily and Snape did talk about dementors while Petunia was listening. I hadn't ever thought about "that awful boy" being anybody but James since I didn't even think Lily and Snape could have ever been friends. But now it totally makes sense.

I do think that she could of been refering to Snape in that line. Since when Harry told her off she never gave him a name but just looked at him as though considering what to tell him. I do think that if it had been his fathe she would have said that potter or something like that. As a kid she called him that awful boy, it would make sense for her to refer to him as that even later.