Well, I dont really have any theories or anything on this subject but everybody seems to be asking what the veil is about or for. I'm wondering how did it get there in the first place, I mean someone must have been part of the land of the dead to make it in the first place surely, or known a hell of a lot about it. can someone help me out with this?

anybody???

It is possible that some wizard in the past managed to understand a secret of Death, and create the Veil.

After all, certain discoveries are so difficult that they must be rare -- just like Nicholas Flamel being the only wizard who ever managed to create a Philosopher's Stone.

Not only are such discoveries rare and difficult, it also requires a certain kind of foolishness in the wizard to result in a dangerous, "unnatural" object such as a Philosopher's Stone or the Veil of Death. A wizard like Dumbledore might have been knowledgeable enough to do these things, but he was also wise enough not to.

So my guess is that some highly skilled wizard in the far past created the Veil and its supporting archway, and that the government at the time decided that it was a useful tool to make clean executions and constructed what has become the Chamber of Death, and that wizards of a later age decided to not use the Veil for executions and study it instead.

I don't really think that it was a tool for execution. Why would it be in the Department of Mysteries? Remember, know one really knew what exactly was in there (besides the people who worked there). Also, the whole spinning room with the doors, that would just be confusing. Not to mention, the Department of Mysteries was supposed to be top-secret stuff, right? So anyone who came to watch the execution might see top-secret stuff if they walked through the wrong door. It just seems too elaborate for an execution.

However, I completely agree that the Veil of Death was created by a powerful wizard who knew some secret of Death. Rather than being used for execution, it is probably being studied to discover the secret that the veil was based on, as the creator probably died without telling anyone the secret.

A little off topic, but...

The 'mirror of desire' from the first book is probably also an item that normally resides in the Department of Mysteries. While not as dangerous as the veil, or some of the other things behind the doors, it's not the sort of thing you want just anyone stumbling across.

It seems to me that the DoM is both a repository and a place of study for especially unique, dangerous, powerful, or poorly understood magical objects.

they would proberly have secret spells in the department of mysteries.. i honestly think its a good idea incase someone tries to break in or steal something.

sorry!!! im new and half of the time i dont even know what anyones talking about.

Alright, here we go. The veil, I believe is a gateway, a rip between the living and the dead. I also beleive that a very experienced and Dark wizard, wanting to discovery ways of transportation between the two dimensions managed to stabilize the gateway, so that it was only a one way door. Tricky, ut possible. Now, I also agreet that the creator of the veil passed on before telling anyone how he created it, or how it works. Perhaps he fell through unexpectingly. The question is, that if it is an object of study, why is it located in a room built like a colleseum. So that many seated could look down at it. THis is why it is discussed as an execution chamber. For those who deserve death rather that life imprisionment, are forced to walk through the veil. The other question is that if live humans can walk through from the land of the living, what is stopping people from the other side from walking through from the land of the dead. I know this is a little to Angels vs. Demons, but it's purpose has got to be bigger than an execution door. Whatever the powerful wizard was trying to do, did he accomplic it, did he fall short? I guess that is why it is in the DoM, because it is a magical object with very little explanation.

As for the Mirror or Erised - We know the function, and it is DD's, So I doubt that it belongs in the DoM with the brains and time vase thing.

There is an interesting theory about the veil in Fan fiction. The theory is that Syltherin walked through it to die, after a fight with the other founders of the school. I don't really know how it got there. It seems that it may have been brought into the physical world by a wizard but that I doubt that it was actually created by a wizard. It probably always existed just not visible to mortal beings. Maybe that is how the ghosts get back into our world.

As for the mirror of Erised, nowhere does Jo tell us if it is Dumbledore's mirror or if it is on loan from the DOM.

i thought Lucius Malfoy put that veil in first place.Hes such a coward man after all

lol Lucius Malfoy isn't NEARLY powerful or smart enough to make a veil like that! lol

Anyway, the veil was probably made by some all-powerful wizard at the beginning of time.

Your right Buckbeak/Witherwings17, Lucius isnt nearly as powerful to create somethign like that.

Also I think your also right in that The Veil was created in the beggining of time good thinking

I totally agree with Padfoot that the arch and the veil are like the gateway to the afterlife, what ever that is. Also if you have seen someone die or someone that you loved died than they will talk to you through the veil.

Hey, good topic...this is interesting...

I think that it was used as a sort of execution. Someone pointed out that it was in the DoM, so no one would have used it if they didn't know what it was for. However, I disagree.
I think that in the DoM, although there are some things that no one knows anything about, most of it is objects of very deep magic. We must not forget that all of the courts are down there as well, so it is a placeused to deal with very serious matters, mostly, not just mysterious things.

I too think that the Veil is a pathway, but to the Oblivion - where there is nothing. You will just exist there, eventually losing the will to live, but still existing all the same. Now, recalling what I can from the description of the archway, veil, and it's room, I believe it was in some sort of an amphitheatre kind of setting. So, of course, if it was built like this, then it was obviously built so that people could sit around and watch the centre, where whatever was being done with the Veil was being done. They would be spectators, basically. Kind of like the spectators there used to be for hangings, ancient witch-burnings, and so forth.
Because this structure lies in the DoM, it is obviously a serious matter, and probably used for disposing of things a bit more important than potions-gone-wrong. People, serious criminals, Death Eaters. So I think the Veil was put there to immediately get rid of serious law-breakers, maybe because they were too horrendous to go to Azkaban. Maybe when this was built, Azkaban didn't exist yet. And it also provided seat for spectators, the Wizengamot for instance, to oversee the 'killing' of the person.
It was just a cruel way to get rid of these people without using the Avada Kedavra curse and letting people see.

*Padfoot*

Oh ya, I forgot to add this, maybe the founder (or one of them) was Dumbledore's ancestor. Since he was pure-blood and he was really, really, really, intelligent. Maybe it was built before hogwarts by the ancestors of the founders, like godric and rowena and salazar lol, and finally helga. Becuase no common wizard or witch would be allowed, by the government, to teach tons of students and if they were taught wrong then a lot of bad things could happen because of bad teaching.

Here is another idea, what is the veil was created by the wizard that DD conquered. It never says how DD defeated him, perhaps that when they were fighting/dueling he was able to force the dark wizard into his own contraption. And that the DoM has had if for study as well as for the prison of Grindlewauld. Is that Possible? However, this does not explain why it sits in the center of an ampetheatre. YOU think that it was just a spare room , and it was just placed there and the architecture of the room holds no significance. However, why did JK explain it in detail? hmmm. I think I am back to where I started.

Just some food for thought.

umm...in response to the reply over me ^^ it wasnt made my grindewald becuase i believe in the 5th or 6th book they said the veil had been theyre for 100's of years and they still didnt understand most of it...

Anywayz..you guys are all giving theories about how people got the veil into theyre or w/e...how about...

The veil was already theyre and they built the whole ministry around it....and department of mysteries was just to keep it safe...anywayz...

I think thatr the veil was used for execution and thats that



axctualy in response to last reply on page 1

I very much doubt that the Veil was there first and the ministry was built around it because the DoM is Underground, and that woould also mean that the Veil would have been sitting right in the middle of London. I think the veil might have been an accident and they just found it useful for Humane Killings of murderes perhaps

I believe that the veil played an important part before it ever got to the ministry. perhaps something happened that was bad and things got out of and that's how the veil ended up in the DoM. that place is where of course mysterious things and secrets are kept and still to this day people are trying to figure out what is does. the veil may be very dangerous but we do not know all of it's background.

I was just reading theories that the veil might lead to the future, so I've kind of got that stuck in my head at the moment. If that's true, it might've been made by a wizard from the future that wanted it as a time-travel thing. He (or she, I guess) could've made it so they could travel back and forth in time. So, there might be a way for Sirius to come back! I'd be so glad if he did! What do you guys think?
-T-

This is EXACTLY what I was thinking and was going to say!! I was actually going to start a new thread on it, but I figured it'd fit in fine here. Anyway, I think this theory makes very good sense. The Veil seems to be an artifact that's been around for hundreds of years, which makes sense, seeing as people have been dying for hundreds of years, and more. But the Ministry of Magic has only been around since about the 1600s, so I think that the Ministry could very well have been built where it is, because of the veil--around the veil-- rather than the veil being built within the ministry (which is the only other explanation for how it could be inside the Ministry; I highly doubt that it is something that could be portable or relocated; no, it is almost definitely a permanent structure.)

And in response to Albus Dumbledore's comment that this couldn't be possible since the DoM is underground: well, the Veil very well could have been originally built in an underground cavern or catacomb. Then it was discovered, and the Ministry decided to build their headquarters around it. Maybe, maybe not. But I think that it is a likely possibility. I mean, how else, and why else could/would the Veil be in the Ministry?

Because if the Ministry wasn't built around the Veil, then the Veil must have been built in the Ministry in the DoM, after the Ministry was built. But I find this rather unprobable, as it is the Unspeakables' job to study and research mysterious objects, not necessarily creat them. Besides, as has been mentioned earlier, it would take an extremely powerful wizard to create such an object, and I don't think any of the Unspeakables (as much as I admire them) are more powerful than Dumbledore.

That's why I think it is very possible that the Ministry was built around the Veil; and because I see no other way how/ why the veil could get and be inside the Ministry. But I would be very interested to hear any other ideas of how it could be there, so please share if you have any ideas.

I also agree with "The Silver Unspeakable" that the veil was there and the ministry was built around it. the reason it could not have been a execution chamber is because there is no death penalty in the wizarding world. its only azkaban and the worst of all the punishments is the dementors kiss where the soul is sucked out of the mouth of the prisoner. so it could not definitely have been an execution chamber. and since it is in the department of mysteries, its pretty clear that its there for studying. adult wizards know about it, thats why lupin stopped harry from going after sirius. he also knows that no one comes back trough it.

ive heard that the arch had been there for hundreds of years. although i dont think it was there as long as hogwarts. maybe it was just an arch and then the unspeakables made the veil because they were researching about what happens after you die

I agree with others on this, that the ministry was built around the veil and that it has always been there. Just like how some people ask if God created the world then who created God, some believe that God has just always been there. So i believe that the veil has always been there. Whether it was used for executions or not, the whole thing is still a mystery to me. Lupin did seem pretty sure that Sirius was dead though, and that he could not come back through it, so I wonder if he knows more about the veil and wheher he could provide harry with more insight about it. I hope that in the next book that JKR provides more information about the veil and the mysteries behind it.

I think that the Veil is an object with great historical significance. Everyone who saw Sirius fall through the Veil knew he died. This leads me to believe that everyone knew what it was. Since it is so dangerous, it was moved/protected to/by the Ministry. I don't care how it got there until I first know what it is.

I also think that the ministry was built around the veil. They probably realized how important and dangerous the viel was even if they didn't understand it, and built the ministry around it to protect it and people from it, and also to study it. Perhaps this is how the Department of Mysteries got started.

WOW. This thread opened a WHOLE NEW can of worms... I don't know, technically- it was probably magicked there. As for the entire ministry being built around it? Hmm, dunno. We will definitely find out in 7 though!

On Mugglecast they discussed this topic and if you read the description of the veil it does seem that the ministry was built around the veil. There is a definite possibility that the ministry was built around it to protect it because we dont know exactly how powerful the veil is. Do you think that the veil could be like a volcano and right now it is dorment? If you fall into a volcano you still die but when a volcano erupts it destroys everything in its path. Is there a possibility that the veil could cause a hurricane like storm to suck everything in the room into it since the veil its self flutters as if its in a breeze even though there isnt one? I also dont think that a peorson dies when they fall through the veil. Time travel is an excellent idea to whoever thought of that! please tell me what you think of me theory!

In My Honest opinion the mystery Veil From The order of the pheonix will some how play a major or minor role in the seventh book, i also think that two way mirror that sirius gave harry will also play some sort of mysterious role in collecting and destroying lord voldemorts remaining horcruxes. possible harry could contact sirius with the two way mirror from the other side of the veil and help harry? anyway i like the idea that the ministry or the department of mysteries was built around the veil.

I agree, Dumbblydore. I think that the Veil is definitly going to play a role--probably a significant one--in book 7. There is to much mystery and magnitude surrounding, especially since it led to Sirius' supposed death, for it just to be left alone with out any further scenes and explanations. That also means that Harry is probably going to go back into the Dept. of Mysteries. I wonder if there are any other significant prophesies that he could find there to help him?

i think that the veil is link between the living and the dead and it does come off as very old. Now ive heard people say that it was used for study not execution yet know one comes up with a good reason for the colosem being around it. here is my theory what if the veil was used as study but the study of the after life and wizards from hundreds or thousands of years ago used to use it to study the two realms, but now in more modern times its purpose is forgotten so people kind of used it as a execution device becuase no one knows how to use it to go back and forth.

Oh wow. I've been so busy that as soon as I posted this topic I mustve forgot. With the release of the 5th film and 7th book this year, I started looking about for more info.
I cant believe I got so much response to this. And I like the idea of the ministry having been built around the veil. However, if nobody understood it really, Then how would they know what significance it had. and perhaps the Veil itself was moved to the ministry and the amphitheatre was built FOR it. So people could study it.

I dunno... Just got me thinking.

I really dont know how it got there all though it was deeply sad when Serius fell behind it! I hope J.K makes a way in the 7th book for him to kind of come back! ~Kaili

I definitely think the veil is the gateway between the living and the dead. In OOtP, Dumbledore even calls the chamber that the veil is in the "Death Chamber." I figured that meant that at some point, either deaths occurred their regularly, or death is studied there regularly, or both. I also think it was created by a wizard while exporing the dark arts, though I don't necessarily think it was created by a dark wizard. It's possible the veil could have been an experiment gone wrong...or maybe it's been around so long no one know where it came from.

I think the idea that the ministry was built around the veil is not so farfetched. It's also possible that the veil was transported their from elsewhere, to prevent random, innocent people from falling prey to it. Remember, Harry has an overwhelming compusion to walk through the veil when he gets near it--so it could be dangerous to a lot of people.

But maybe it's not necessarily dark magic or light magic--maybe it's ambiguous. On one hand, it kills people--and that's rarely a good thing. But at the same time, you can hear voices on the other side of it---voices of people you might desperately miss---and somehow the veil could represent a way of contacting them. Remember what LUna said...something like "they're there...just on the other side." Also, Dumbledore says that death is just the next great adventure...so maybe the veil shouldn't be viewed as evil. Maybe it simply is what it is.

mmm...well I think that the veil is just a trap , in which everyone in there calls out for help (which kinda explains the voices). I mean, who knows?...what if it isn't death, what if it is just a trap?

well i think that it was an experiment they were performing in the department of mysteries, remember how nick told harry that they studied death there? well i think it might be a portal of some sort.

i think the veil is some sort of prison not a death chamber ( hoping siruis will return lol)

as for how it got there i believe it was transported from were ever it was found..here we go...

ok i think the veil was a relic created thousands of years ago by a group of wizards or wizard unknowen..think of tribes of people maybe wizards were like that they had their own beliefs and ways of doing things and they created the veil..then fastforward few thousand year and we have a team from the ministry whos job it is to find magical objects ect. (arcelogists .sp.) just like indiania jones only with magic lol..i think they found they veil and brought it back to the ministy for study..maybe herimoines aicent ruine skills will play a part in unlocking the truth, maybe a riddle has to be solved to set free all within the veil or somthing i just hope this piece of the puzzle is tied up in book 7

i read in this forum somewhere that it was said the dementors kiss was the worse magical punishment,no it was not,because the dementors started working for the ministry after the downfall of lv


1.if the dementors were working with lv the first time round and then when he fell to little harry,they went back to the ministry, would they of let them

2.it never said the dementors ever worked for the ministry before lvs first downfall

this may seem of topic but this is where it adds up

the veil was built for punishment of death for the criminals only when dementors started working for the ministry they stopped using it

josh

i think the veil is very interesting and is going to be of great importance. an interesting aspect i think, is that if it was made to be an execution hall of some sorts, that it was in the shape of an archway, opposed to a pit or hole in the floor or something. i think this implies the sense of "walking into the colloseum to face your death with your head held high" sort of thing harry thought about in order of the pheonix. if the prisoner was to be executed by going through the veil, it means he would have to walk through on his own, meaning he came to terms with what he was convicted for and accepted his sentence. also, the recently released artwork for the books i hope depicts the veil. in the us edition it seems like harry and voldemort are in the veil, that the shadows in the background are the "voices from behind the veil". or it could be from the perspective of in the veil and harry is in the chamber, that would make the shadows death eaters i guess. in the childrens uk edition, i hope the arch depicted is indeed the veil. the color inside that arch is very similar to the color of the sky in the us edition. it's all immensly complex but the bottom line i think is that the veil is definatly going to be important in the last book

Dubbledore you got a little But I would have to kind of agree with you on the whole punishment thing. I mean what if the Ministry did use the veil as a punishment for those who still wanted to serve Lord Voldemort? I mean that is a good reason but then again, I think I read somewhere, correct me if I'm wrong, but Nearly Headless Nick, I think said that the Ministry used to study death in there somewhere. So then I kind of think that the veil is some sort of Portal that you have to wait in until a great wizard comes and conjures some kind of big spell and releases all of whom is in the veil,like Sirius , but this is just a theory. So feel free to prove me wrong.



Sirius

I agree with the theory about the ministry being built around the veil. Because who or what could have made the veil. I think that at the beginning of time it was just there ane the Ministry wanted to know what it did, so they built a whole building around it so they could study it. But, of course, it would be impossible to find out what it ment in a short amount of time, so, I think that the ministry is still studing it and that somehow Percy is too. You guys have come up with so many great theories !

Wow i completely agree with you padfoot. Well put!
As to how it got there im not sure...but im not sure that the ministry was built around it. I think it was moved there, possibly after whoever created it, created it (sorry im tired and my english has gone down the toilet! )
As maybe people realised it could be dangerous...

i think i'll come back to this one!...right now im not sure that anything im writting is even making sense!

D.A

I really don't think that the Veil is used for the purpose of executions due to the fact that it is in the DoM. I mean, why would the place that the ministry uses for the death penalty be in the Department that studies the unknown? It seems like there would be a totally different department, since the unspeakables' expertise afterall is not killing or torture, but in studying the unknown. Therefore, I think that the Veil represents the mysteries of death. Afterall, everything else in the DoM is something to that effect: All the clocks, etc. represent the mystery of time; the brains represent that mysteries of the mind. Thus the Veil represents the mysteries of death.

So along with what Overtheocean said, I think that the Veil is a portal to the place where the spirits of the dead dwell. They aren't gone, they're just "there but on the other side," as Luna said, and it's not necessarily a bad thing either, as Overtheocean so perfectly portrayed with the quote from DD.

Furthermore, here's a little perk I thought of: If in fact the Veil is the dwelling place of spirits, as I believe, then Sirius technically would still be alive because his body and spirit were never seperated! Perhaps he's just gone and stuck there because the Veil is only a one-way portal/passageway, and in HPDH Harry is going to have to find the passage out of it. (I agree with koumphe that the Veil will play a big role in book 7, and also that the US cover portrays a scene beyond the Veil.) So if this theory is true, Harry can go in there without actually dying, and he'll be able to return with Sirius, though unfortunatly probably not with DD nor his parents since they were in fact actually seperated from their bodies. But regardless, at least he still would be able to see them and talk to them once again.

I'm really glad you brought that point up when you did The Silver Unspeakable.

I've been working on my fanfiction, and in the process of writing it, I discovered that I needed to know more about the veil. It took about two years of thinking, but this is the story I came up with, and use in my fic.

First, JK has said in an interview somewhere that it was not used for executions, and that it is as old as the ministry itself.

My story goes that hundreds of years ago the Wizards Council, the forerunners of the Ministry of Magic, stumbled across a cave. Within that cave was the arch and the veil. The archway I believe literally is the entrance to death. But death is not a condition, it is an actual place. Designed for only the spirit to dwell, but able to be passed into by a body.

The veil held a sick sort of appeal over the wizards (as you will recall it did over Harry). They would have deduced (through trial and error likely) that it was somehow connected with death. It was moved for two reasons. First, so that unsuspecting people didn't fall through it, and second, to be studied as death is probably one of the greatest mysteries of life.

It was placed in the Ministry of Magic to be studied, set into an amputheatre type room because of it's appeal. Many of the Unspeakables and other workers would likely be drawn to just sit and stare at it, not willing to touch it knowing that it was connected somehow to death, but unwilling to tear themselves away from it. Such is the power and facination of death.

When Sirius passed through the veil, his soul was still in tact with his body. The two remain intact and alive but in the realm of death. Many people before him would have gone through it, and their voices are the ones you hear. They would of course be keeping each other company, but also calling for help. The veil between life and death would muffle their voices, so their words would be indistinguishable. But when they heard something on the other side, they would start pleading for help. Being a place for the spirit, the body is incabale of moving freely throughout it.

Adults would know the chamber as the "Death Chamber" and it would be ledgend in the wizarding world just like the "Fabled Hall of Prophecy" known to excist, but little else known for sure. It being the Death Chamber, Lupin, Dumbledore, and everyone else would assume that to fall through it is to die. No one has ever come back, therefore they are gone.

Now, in my fic, there is a way around this. My character is in the middle of an escape type scene, and she's in very ill health. She's found her way to the Death Chamber but knows nothing about where she is, focusing more on the 40 aurors attempting to stun her and return her to Azkaban. She's hit with a freezing charm and falls through the veil. But, before she falls completely, someone catches her hand, each hand. She doesn't know which way is life and which way is further through the veil so she just holds on. Finally, they manage to pull her out, but her having not let go of the other hand, comes out with Sirius.

The two of them being able to lock hands once they had touched, but unable to manuver after the momentum of their fall stopped carrying them.


Kinda long and wild, but I liked it, and I got to bring Sirius back.

I believe the veil was created long ago by a powerful wizard, upon seeing it is extremely dangerous the Ministry put it in the DoM. Pretty broad theory but the veil is so mysterious that its hard to make an educated guess. I hope we find out in book 7 .

~ CLeansweep

I'd never given that much thought....but now that you mention it ....i have no idea. I'm going to have to thin kand get back to it.

i gave it a thought once when my sister(Jenzy Black) asked me what it is...i think it is a protection set by the ministry to prevent intruders to the department of ministry bit crude really

I think that the veil had been established through ancient magic, which is now longforgotten. And as such, the wizarding world would see it as a waste to simply have it removed, so they have built around, no one knows quite how it came into existence, and are too sacred to pass through it, you might die. I think that what lies beyond the veil is what Catholics and other christians call pergutory.

Never really though about this. Maybe, when the first person alive, whoever that maybe, but whenever they died, there was no gateway for their soul to go through to go on, so the soul made the gateway for itself, and left the gateway open for lesser souls to go through. Wizards and Witches maybe found this 'Veil' and transported to a place not everyone could see it, the DoM was perfect because it is a place not many people go. Just a theory but it seems credible enough? Doesn't it?

well actually, i got a bit bored in 1995 and nicked my next door neighbours gazebo poles and went to the MoM
i had this bit of useless material and decided to make an arch way with a viel

there you thats were it came from...

and then i thought what the heck lets make voices come from it so i did a tricky little charm

and then harry and co came along that same year and fel for it...

as for siruis dying when he fell through... i have no idea... maybe i createda new realm..any volunteers to go see what IS on the other side of my work of art???? no
ok then fun-suckers

I have now idea but maybe one of the three brothers decided to give a death a passage way or something I really have no idea.