I was re-reading HBP for the third time and this time, trying to apply my A-level English lit analytical skills had an epiphany...snape is not evil.

i know many people probably own t-shirts saying 'TEAM SNAPE' and 'TEAM POTTER' but there is a logical (well my logic anyway) as to the reason snape murders Dumbledore, (D).

The reason that snape kills D is not because he is evil although, this I cannot prove conclusively. It is of a simpler yet brilliantly orchestrated reason. Something rowling has done so gracefully, it went unnoticed the first time i read it...

it is because of the unbreakable vow that Snape takes with Narcissa.

For those who don’t know...or cant remember. He makes three vows one, that he would over-see Dracos attempt at fulfilling the dark lords task. Second that he will do whatever it takes to keep Draco from harm.
And lastly

'And, should it prove necessary, and it seams Draco will fail...you [snape] will carry out the deed the dark lord has ordered DRACO to perform'.

This not only signifies that from here on-end snape, must PROTECT and OVER-SEE Draco and but he MUST also reveals as t why snape kills D the final task that the dark lord award Draco is the murder of D.
However Draco fails to comply with this and is unable to fulfil his task and thus!!!

Snape is FORCED to kill D I order to uphold the unbreakable vow and finish the 'deed' Draco was unable to fulfil.

this theory is further aided by the description of snapes faces he is fulfilling his vow. it seams at first to by occlumancy and ligilimancy BIT Rowling distinctly describes his face as
revolting and filled with. his facial reaction is NOT at Dumbledore but at the task he is now by no choice., hence the word unbreakable, force to uphold.

i hope that this has triggered a few ideas and a few other conspiracy theories for people to explore. Please please please post me with your ideas and responses to this theory.

winter.

Well, thank you for your theorie but we all figured it out. Sorry. Sorry too for the one liner.

But it's true that Snape had to fullfil the Vow. And we know Snape is good to figure out the thing to do in a few seconds. But he surely had to do it.
If he did help Dumbledore, The DE would kill him, Dumbledore would die, Drago too.
If he didn't help Dumbledore (kill him), the DE would know what is his loyaltie. Now Snape is alive, and Drago will survive (Snape is a good occlumens, so he can say to Voldemort Drago kill Dumbledore).
When Dumbledore said
Severus.... Please....
It was surely meaning: Severus, don't show them you're good, continue working as a spy, continue...

Go to the forum and PRE-BOOK SEVEN for all the thread about this...
6 threads about it, plus one with more than 250 posts

Wow, this is brilliant!

But it all revolves around the Unbreakable vow. Which is a confusing thing in general. I mean, is it just a vow that has to be kept or someone will die? Or is it a vow the magically binds someone to do a certain task?

I don’t remember where I read it, but there was something about if a unbreakable vow is broken the person dies, so therefore, the unbreakable vow can be broken, which means that there arent any magical bonds that forces someone to do something attached to it. They simply just have to do it, or die.

So as long as we are assuming that there are no magical bonds that force you to do something that are included with the Unbreakable vow, then Snape really did kill Dumbledore as his own conscious decision.

So I guess so far, Snape is still a mean person, unless he did what he did on Dumbledore's orders, or to get rid of Voldemort.... We will find out soon I will hope

Good work anyways though!

And Rougue, I do believe that this belongs in its own thread, seeing how its a completly new way of looking at why Snape did what he did and many more theories could be made from this one.

cheese puff?

Cheeser, you're right. I believe that, in the chapter "The Unbreakable Vow," it did indeed say that the person who broke the vow would die. . .It does not say that it binds a person to the vow, but it does create a VERY good reason not to break it.

I think that Snape did, ultimately, have the choice to kill D or walk away, though I think that had he just walked away, one of the other DE's there would have killed Dumbledore and then Snape would have also been killed, as per the restrictions of the unbreakable vow and the presence of so many other DEs. He was in a lose-lose (or win-win situation depending how you look at it I guess).

passer

The reason why Snape killed Dumbledore is, as has been pointed out, very clear. Due to the unbreakable vow, Snape had to kill Dumbledore or die. It is as simple as that and there is no doubt whatsoever.

However, the main question that needs to be addressed is to ask why Snape agreed to take the vow in the first place.

Option 1
He is still on the side of the Death Eaters and knew that Draco would be unable to complete the task. Hence, he saw a chance for further glory and prestige in the eyes of Voldemort.

Option 2
He is secretly working for the Order of the Phoenix, spying on the Death Eaters. The visit from Narcissa and Bellatrix tested his cover story to the limit, especially when Narcissa put him on the spot with her request for the unbreakable vow. Snape would see it as a good opportunity to allay Bellatrix's suspicions which, I'm sure, were shared by a number of the Death Eaters.

This seems to tie into the idea that Dumbledore's death was preplanned and that, after whatever happened to his hand, he was dying anyway and it was a good opportunity to insinuate Snape further into Voldemort's confidence that was too good to waste.

Option 3
Snape has been playing both sides agaisnt each other with loyalty only to himself ('Yojimbo' and 'A Fist Full of Dollars' are good examples of this). However, the probing of Bellatrix and Narcissa's request backed him into a corner from which aquiesence was the only option. Once events began to reach their climax, it was clear that Draco was incapable of killing Dumbledore forcing Snape to take action to save his own life.

I think it should be noted that the one constant in all three options is the fact that Snape was acting to save his own skin - a true Slytherin!

Option 1 does not satisfy me for one simple reason - it is too simple. With the Harry Potter books, we have become used to JKR using misdirection and subtefuge (without ever lying outright) in attempts to send readers in the wrong direction. Option 1 is clear cut and doesn't ring true.

Similarly, I have a few problems with option 2. If you go with the pre-conceived plan formulated by Dumbledore and Snape, there is one main problem for me. Hopw would Dumbledore and Snape know that Narcissa was going to make that request iof Snape?

Granted, it is plausible that the plan was concocted after Snape took the vow but, if this was not the plan all along, why would he take (back to the original question)

Personally, I think that option 3 seems the more plausible. It explains why Snape took the vow - allaying the suspicions of Bellatrix was to his advantage and would help protect his life (if Bellatrix managed to convince Voldemort that Snape was lying then bang! Scratch one spy). It explains why Snape was interrogating Malfoy through out the story - he was concerned that the plan was not progressing and was trying to save his own life. It explains why Snape killed Dumbledore - Draco had failed and Snape was bound by the vow to finish the job otherwise he would die. He was trying to save his own life.

There may be other options but, in my opinion, option 3 covers all bases and shows Snape to be a true Slytherin.

these are all very interesting...

when i first read it (then the second, then the third times...) i was totally convinced that snape was 'evil' and killed dumbledore for what ever reason (the vow, fear of Voldie, his life) and couldn't see anyway he could still be good.

however, upon my fifth and sixth times reading the book (yes i do have a life, i just like to read and what better to read than HP) i was struck by the description of Snape's face as the is about to kill DD. similar to winterbliss' theory, it didn't seem to fit that he would look upon DD with such loathing and hatred, after all, if you do take the view he is a DE, DD still saved him from azkaban, and he owes him a lot.

squashing all my previous ideas about snape and DD's death, i thought about it clearly (and unbiased-ly) and it makes sense that he was revulsed by his own actions. he was hating himself for what he had to do. DD could (this is in my own silly opinion) have told snape, just like he told harry before and in the cave, to promise to do what he was instructed. harry was forced to make him drink the stuff to get the locket, and snape was forced to kill him.

and thus, i admit, i no longer accuse snape. while he carried out the action, and the reasons thus are compicated, it is voldie's 'habit of spreading discord' (or whatever) that is to blame.

I posted in another thread about this and I also came up with the SNAPE FOR HIMSELF idea. I see that Throughout the series his attitiude has always been about what would be best for him. He tries to save Harry in SS because of HIS debt to James, fulfilling the debt would be better for himself. In CoS, he keeps his freindship with Death Eater Malfoy by allowing him to buy Draco a way on the Slytherin team. In PoA he created a story that made himself look like the hero about Harry being under a Confundus Curse or something and that is HE (Snape) wasn't there then the Dementors would have gotten both Potter and Sirius, and I think Hermione was there as well. In GoF, he ignored the DArk mark at school so not to impicate himself and ally himself with neither good nor evil - ignored the warnings and did not flee, and did not Apparate - because you can't in Hogwarts. In OotP, he did not fight at the DoM because he would have been discovered by Volderemort to work for good, or would have been discovered by DD to work for Evil. In HBP He take the vow to get Bellatrix off his back and continues to spy for DD. In the end, perhaps it wasn;t disguss that he was about to kill DD, perhaps it was that he could no longer play both sides, with the killing curse he would be branded as a death eater and supporter of Voldermort. He had to kill him because it was either kill or be killed. Perhaps he was upset that he was going to kill his only true friend that he made the ghastly look, but he was pinned to the dark arts when he did, and his allegence has no been forced to Voldermort.

This all does sound plausable, but I believe that Snape will continue to guve him hints anonomously (sp) and return to the side of good eventually, or he will die in the end of the eventh book.

I just registered on this forum and this is the first time I post.
I found this discussion really interesting si I wanted to share my opinion.

When I finished reading the book (yesterday night, because I'm italian and the book here just came out some days ago) I felt a bit of delusion because it really seemed Snape was at the end on voldemort side, but then I thought about it and I realized there are some not very clear elements in that situation and that snape might not be on the dark side.

- When he accepts the vow he hesitates on the third part of it (the one about finishing Draco's job), but this fact alone doesn't really mean a lot

- at one point Hagrid says to Harry that he has heard Dumbledore and Snape arguing about someting and Snape said "he didn't want to go further" or something like that. Now I think this is interesting, if he really is on voldemort side this wouldn't be very important but maybe it was all planned (or at least part of it)...

- dumbledore often says that he has really good reasons to trust him, it seems stange that he could have made a so big mistake (in fact everyone in the book is surprised about that)

- in one of the final chapters of the book , just before dumbledore and harry return to hogwarts, dumbledore insistently tells harry to go and call snape. Even if he trusted snape so much, he must have had a good reason to wanting so badly to see him and nobody else in that moment.

- as someone else already said there is something really strange about what dumbledore says before snape kills him and about snape's own look just before he does that...


Ok, I hope I haven't just repeated what someone else said.

If he wasn't evil he wouldn't have sworn that vow.

But I still go with the ''dumbledore asks snape till kill him so snape can spy on lord voldemort and dumbledor has a horcrux somewhere so he will regenerate just as voldemort'' theory

::EDIT::

I also remember Dumbledor saying something about: Since i'm smarter then most people my mistakes get bigger.
Thats probably it, his mistake was to trust snape and thats got him killed (big mistakes, just like he said)

Welcome aboard Arkav, a nicely written post there.

Thanks for answering.
I think those events we are discussing about can have very different interpretations and your one might be right aswell, we'll probably have to wait for the seventh book to find out the truth...this discussion is anyway very interesting

that theory is perfect...
I think DD have a horcrux too. At least i hope that...
is it impossible
bcs if DD cannot return Voldemort's chance is really high.
Pls RETURN DUMBLEDORE

in HBP, there is proof that DD told SS to kill him, but I would quote it, but I just- cant- FIND IT! the books are so long, that i cant find anything to quote it. but i remember Hagrid telling Harry that DD was angry with SS, because SS was trying to back out of something, but DD wouldn't let him (Hagrid heard this and told Harry) and i thought about this because my mom said something about it after she read HBP (i didn't know veritaserum.com existed back then) and i thought about it, and that is the only thing that fits.

quite an interesting topic,
nymphadora

this thread was certainly interesting.

and it forevermore supports my theory of R.A.B being snape or dumbledore.

half of me thinks snape is a DE, half thinks he`s good. however, unless you have carefully analyzed the clues, and are soo sure.. there`s really no way to tell because J.K would like to have us think one way or another, and snape is an expert occlumens, we wouldn`t be able to know exactly.

but if R.A.B is dumbledore.. it would fit in with the stuff i have in the prebook 7 R.A.B thread. because then he would`ve known snape made the vow, and would know that he was to die, and therefore, even though he knew everything stage it with harry [the trip to the cave, coming back being surprised]. but it could also be the same way with snape.. haha.

slaine mac roth, I sympathise with your concerns for the reasons Snape would have for killing DD however maybe sometimes it is the simplest things that make the most interesting story lines.

I think that although there is credible evidence, and lots and lots of it, to suggest snapes evil but I think I agree more with George’s girl in his innocence.

snapes has been with Dumbledore for over 17 years- don’t you think that this would have in any way influenced snapes and compelled him in considering DD teachings and truly coming to the 'there side'

I also don’t think that he is a rouge out only for himself (my ideas are that he had been forced into becoming such a malcontent after being bullied all those years by James and serious and that) one of the things that I can think of that would agree with this is that in the first book PS, Harry is playing quidditch and when cursed by quirril (cant spell it for the life of me) it was him saying the counter curse.
Another event is when running into the forbidden forest in HBP he is trying to aid Harry by teaching him to say spells silently.

One other point that really is in favour of Snape being good is Dumbledore. The only man feared by the Dark Lord, one of the most accomplished, powerful and phenomenal wizards of all time- why would he have unquestionable and undying trust in a suspicious character as Snape till the end. I don’t think that ANYONE could argue that he is naive enough to do so.

Thus, I believe Snape to be on the side of good however, his killing DD and his methods are clearly questionable.

Winterless

of course we dont know why he killed him-and has he a logical reason-but i dont care about it.the most important thing now,he seems a murderer!!he killed my favourite char and so i hate him of course

I know I should go back and read the posts, so this may have been mentioned. I was reading off of another website where the writer suggested this:

" It is then that Dumbledore begs Snape to fulfill his vow: “Severus,” says the headmaster. “For the first time, Dumbledore was pleading.” (595). “Severus…please…”

If Snape were following Dumbledore’s wishes, why were “revulsion and hatred etched” in Snape’s face as a gazed at Dumbledore just before killing him? Firstly, revulsion at having to perform an Unforgivable Curse, the death spell Avada Kedavra. Discussing the killing afterwards, the Hogwarts teachers and pupils agree that they had never believed that Snape, for all his faults, could kill a man. To fulfill the Unbreakable Vow and Dumbledore’s wishes, Snape had act in revolt against his true nature.

As for the “hatred”, Snape knows that a wizard must act with hatred in order to successfully cast an Unforgivable Curse. Hatred comes easily to Snape, and he had all sorts of resentments which he could bring to mind—including, perhaps, hatred of Dumbledore for making Harry Potter into the headmaster’s favorite. And then there is a full reservoir of self-hatred from his miserable childhood, compounded by his many cruelties as an adult."

Sorry for it being so long, and I think I just realized that that doesn't help explaining the reason...I'll get back to you all...

Mmm...I left this thread open originally because I thought it was going to be going down a slightly different road - a discussion based around the Vow Snape made, but now it's looking increasingly like covering the same territory that 'Who is Snape Really Betraying' is covering.

I'll leave it for now and see how it goes, but if this discussion continues to go along the lines of a debate about Snape's morality, then really, this thread would be better of being merged with the other one.

Do'h, sorry Michelle...

Alright, Snape was bound by the vow...which is why he killed Dumbledore, there was no other choice and Dumbledore knew this so he concocted a plan...a very complicated one that he may have not even known the whole thing and outcome!

As it turns out, Snape's look of disgust (sorry, I don't have the book on me to look at the exact description) was forced out so he could perform the AK, he had to mean it, so he could have thought of something from his childhood or something else (the pensieve scene?) to get his anger going.

I'm not saying this is it, its a theory...so feel free to destroy it, and I know its probably been brought up but I wanted to make peace with the mods so it wouldn't look like I was making a useless post...which this one probably is!

I think the above (not the last paragraph) is why he really did have to kill Dumbledore, whether he wanted to or not.

Snape kills dumbledore because dumbledore told him too.
In the end Harry will kill voldemort with snapes help.

No one else could know about dumbledore planning his own murder because the information could get leaked or someone might try to stop him..lol.

And yeah..reactions need to be genuine. Harry cant know because if voldemort somehow stops using occulumency against him , be it accident or on purpose , he could find out the plan and murder snape thus destorying any chance to kill LV.

I'm inclined to believe that Snape killed Dumbledore not because of the Unbreakable Vow, but on Dumbledore's orders. I think that the argument that Hagrid heard the two of them having near the forest was about the Unbreakable Vow. I believe Snape told Dumbledore what he had done, and that he didn't want to go through with it. Dumbledore says something to the effect of "you agreed to it, and you have to follow through." That's why Dumbledore was begging Snape on top of the tower. I don't think it would be very like Dumbledore to beg for his own life, but I wouldn't put it past him to beg Snape to kill him.

maybe Snape was pretending that he was on Voldemort's side and dumbledore told him to kill him. So basically dumbledore told snape to kill him as a order and whilst Snape is with Draco he may kill him. I still have a feeling though that snape killed Dumbledore because Voldemort told him to. Hmmmm........ i'll have to think about it

All I'm saying is that purely because everyone's so obsessed (and rightly so) with this question about Snape, wouldn't it be a major let-down from a literary point of view if Snape was just as evil and easily summed-up as Harry makes out? That leaves no space for personal conflict and growth for Harry, and cancels out most interesting plot twists. J.K is a great writer: that's one pitfall she would avoid!

brilliant...

i came up with the exact same theory as the topic-starter. this is proof that snape is good, because even in spinners end, he never told bella why he saved harry in quidditch in his first year. apparently he couldnt live with knowing that james potter saved him once, and he had to repay, but who is snape to repay harry if he was an evil guy?

well i think we have all figured out that part mainly because snape made the unforgivable vow.but what if there was a way to outsmart the vow and that is why snape paused.and if so i think he used a different spell that sends you into the ramparts and it's a flash of green light.but that's all i can think of.

ok here is my thought to this, i posted in another thread something similar to this.

Everyone has to remember the kinda of person DD is, he would die for the school and for the students, in my opinion he knew of Dracos problem and knew what was happening with him. Now i think snape has been back with the DE since book 5 if not 4 but as a spy, i think he is working still for the order. Now here is what i think went down, DD knew about Dracos problem, snape is back with the DE but isint that well trusted yet, so DD and snape get together DD tells him that it must ultimatly come down to snape killing DD, snape of course refuses but DD sees it more as a win win, Draco will be better off and snape will be welcomed back in as a hero. So the unbreakable vow to me was planned and snape fuffiled the first part of DD orders. and then later on the rest of it.

please feel free to argue my point or prove me wrong as it has been some time since i haveread HBP.

i think ur rite that snape had to kill dumbldore i think ur all right i dont think snape is evil i think he is good and he had to do it thats why he was asking draco wat he was up to nd draco didnt tell him so i think snape will show wer his loyalties truly lie on the good side

It's clear: Snape killed DD because DD ordered him to, not only because of the vow Snape made with Draco's mother, but also because Snape made another unbreakable vow many years before, just after Lily Potter was killed. This vow, made with DD, made Snape protect Harry and also perhaps do whatever DD said in order to protect Harry. That is why DD trusted Snape.

The Vow with Draco's mother complicated everything. DD knew that Snape is key to Harry's success, and must not be killed. Therefore, in DD's eyes, it was a simple decision.

So in the end, when Dumbledore was pleading to Snape, he was pleading for Snape to kill him, not spare his life. Harry misunderstood. This murder was the worst, most horrible thing Severus had ever had to do, but he had no choice. I believe it was so hard for Snape to do, "there was hatred and revulsion in his face". The hatred was for DUmbledore for making him do this, and the revulsion was his feeling sick to his stomach that he had to kill his friend and companion, and the man he most admired.

Later, as Harry chased Snape towards the forest, Harry called him a coward and Snape screamed,"DONT CALL ME COWARD" and his face was suddenly demented, inhuman as though he was in as much pain as the yelping dog. This shows how painful it was for Snape to kill Dumbledore.

And if you still have doubts, Snape (just before that) stopped a Death-Eater who was using the cruciatus curse on Harry. So he was still trying to protect Harry.

The only catch: with DD dead, the original vow doesn't hold.

runslow

I agree that Snape only killed DD because of the curse. But i do think that he is on the Dark lords side. He couldn't really not agree to the Unforgivable curse in front of Bellatrix as she would tell Voldemort and he would seem suspiciuos if he didn't agree, But Snapes answers were so pracitsed and calm at every question Bella threw at him. As if he had rehersed them or they were simplky the right answers. Why would he bother rehersing them and how would he knnow he'd ever get asked. And what would he get asked?

When snape makes the unbreakable vow, it is never specified what he is to complete for draco should he fail. it could have just been the task of getting the death eaters into hogwarts. it probably was the thing about killing dumbledore, however. just thought I'd add another theory, because that's what this website is all about.

if D planned his death why would he leave the school (die) without cathing death eaters first ,for, wouldnt his main priority be the protection of students and teachers?

Hi there potter fans! love this thread!

Here's my theory.......

Snape did a binding charm with narcissa malfoy to protect draco (in HBP beginning) so no harm would come to him, while doing work for old voldy...
what if snape did the same charm all those years ago with dumbledore to protect harry? Maybe after he 'converted' to dumbledores side (as proof to dumbledore of his new allegiance) and thats why dumbledore trusts him???

Also;
Dumbledore knew what draco was upto in HBP, maybe he knew he would be killed (and his vow with snape protected harry) as snape could of sense harry was there at the top of the tower as he's a skilled legilimens!!!!--but he had to kill dumbledore for malfoy as part of the vow with draco's mother narcissa!

I think dumbledore knew he was going to die! as in the HBP dumbledore asked harry to keep carrying out his orders to get the horcrux kill voldy etc even if DD died....

Hey that theory is really great.

I've been thinking of this too, and I also think that Snape is good(or I hope so). I think that Snape had to agree to the Unbreakable Vow to keep the Death Eaters and Voldemort thinking that he was still on their side. I also think that Dumbledore knew all about this immediately after it happened. During the book, Dumbledore assures Harry that he still indeed trust Snape, and that he knows more than Harry thinks. Which means... that Dumbledore knew all about Draco's plans and that on the night of Dumbledore's death when Dumbledore was supposedly pleading for his life he was probably pleading for Harry's life. What do you all think of that!? I really hope this is the case because I've always liked Snape and his character--He's so evil but at the same time so awesome!

I know that most of the people think that Snape is good, but I'm still one of the few people that think that he's just EVIL !!!

Though that was an excellent thoery. But I'm still thinking... Why didnt Snape do the unbreakable vow in the first place ?? I know that people are saying that he did that to keep the Death Eaters and LV thinking that he's stil on their side. But I just think that he did that because that's who he is and he's on their side !

And plus all those stuff that Spane did in the past.. Like spying on Dumbledore at Hog's Head when the prophecy was told ?!? Why did he do that if he was good ?

But I dont know... Maybe I just dont want to believe that he good because he's the one who killed Dumbledore (the greatest wizard of all time ! R.I.P)

P.S All my apologies if this post is not written in a good way, Cause I'm still a new member so please go easy on me ! Thanks