Whether or not the fetus is fully-formed is irrelevent in my opinion, because whether or not you wish to use the words "murder", you're still preventing someone from living which is the exact same thing as killing it. Except, it might be a bit worse since it would never have a real chance at life. That's what I think.
I really do hate repeating the same things, but for your last portion of the post, how is the choice to kill easier than to raise it? You said it yourself, how can they make decisions for a child. Well don't you think killing it would be a tad bit of a decision? You've put yourself in the place of the girl who was pregnant. Now put yourself in the place of that child who never had a chance at life. Your mother thought that it was the best decision for her to not give you a chance to live. And, keepstar, since you are an atheist, I assume you believe that after we die we cease to exist, so how can we even imagine what it would be like to die before you even come out of your mother and then cease to exist? That's a real fair oppertunity now isen't it.
I personally am not an atheist, I was just trying to explain what I think to Keepstar through what she believes.
Full Version: Abortion
I am VERY tired of having to warn people about their tones in these threads. 
Listen up, and listen up good....
A DEBATE is a reasonable exchange of ideas - "Yes, I can see your point, but have you considered this..."
A CONFRONTATION is rude, arrogant and obnoxious - "Why can't you see that....You must be stupid if you can't see.....Did you bother reading my post at all"
AGGRESSION WILL NOT BE TOLERATED ON THIS FORUM.
If people in this thread are unable to make this basic distinction then the thread will be locked.
Now, I'd rather not ruin a debate and punish those who are capable of behaving themselves so what I'm going to do is this -
I am issuing a warning to everyone on this thread to keep your tone civil and respectful. If you give cause for offence or are rude to any other person, I or one of the other mods will put you on moderator preview, which is basically a suspension of your posting privileges until the moderators are happy that you've read the rules and learned some manners and respect.
I am NOT breaking up fights in here anymore, is that clear?
And Vincent - I have asked you before, please edit your signature. It is over the 5 lines maximum allowed here.
Listen up, and listen up good....
A DEBATE is a reasonable exchange of ideas - "Yes, I can see your point, but have you considered this..."
A CONFRONTATION is rude, arrogant and obnoxious - "Why can't you see that....You must be stupid if you can't see.....Did you bother reading my post at all"
AGGRESSION WILL NOT BE TOLERATED ON THIS FORUM.
If people in this thread are unable to make this basic distinction then the thread will be locked.
Now, I'd rather not ruin a debate and punish those who are capable of behaving themselves so what I'm going to do is this -
I am issuing a warning to everyone on this thread to keep your tone civil and respectful. If you give cause for offence or are rude to any other person, I or one of the other mods will put you on moderator preview, which is basically a suspension of your posting privileges until the moderators are happy that you've read the rules and learned some manners and respect.
I am NOT breaking up fights in here anymore, is that clear?
And Vincent - I have asked you before, please edit your signature. It is over the 5 lines maximum allowed here.
Aye-Aye Dana! (i've always wanted to say that)
in my opinion (and you may may hate me for it
) it's the difference between one decision and many decisions. Yes, choosing to have an abortion is a hard, and difficult decision but maybe in the long run it's better to have to make that decision than maybe start making a life full of them...
I think the classification of when a fetus becomes alive is the biggest debate around abortion. Many people agree with you Vincent, and that at the moment of contraception it is alive. I beleive something i alive when it can function (for the most part) without the help of another being or machines. Thats why i classify an abortion up until a certian time not a murder. If it's after that time i agree with you and it is.
you also correct that i can't put myself in the shoes of a unborn child. And yes i don't beleive in god, but that doesnt mean i don't beleive in "something"
My religion is science...i bleive that energy can never be lost only transfered. So even though that child may not live, how many other things will flourish/ survive from the energy of that child. Maybe someday tha energy will be transfered into another child... kind of like scientific reincarnation 
I respect your opinions Vincent, you explain them well, i just think that your religious beliefs and my scientific ones are butting heads over abortion
in my opinion (and you may may hate me for it
) it's the difference between one decision and many decisions. Yes, choosing to have an abortion is a hard, and difficult decision but maybe in the long run it's better to have to make that decision than maybe start making a life full of them...I think the classification of when a fetus becomes alive is the biggest debate around abortion. Many people agree with you Vincent, and that at the moment of contraception it is alive. I beleive something i alive when it can function (for the most part) without the help of another being or machines. Thats why i classify an abortion up until a certian time not a murder. If it's after that time i agree with you and it is.
you also correct that i can't put myself in the shoes of a unborn child. And yes i don't beleive in god, but that doesnt mean i don't beleive in "something"
My religion is science...i bleive that energy can never be lost only transfered. So even though that child may not live, how many other things will flourish/ survive from the energy of that child. Maybe someday tha energy will be transfered into another child... kind of like scientific reincarnation I respect your opinions Vincent, you explain them well, i just think that your religious beliefs and my scientific ones are butting heads over abortion
I'm just trying to ask, not be arrogant or anything, but who was aggresive? I thought I was very accepting of everyone else's ideas. The only post that matched your examples, Dana, was Ravenmists about how I obviously didn't read his/her post. Just because I said that I personally don't understand someone else's views isen't aggresive or anything, I just didn't understand. I don't recall you telling me to edit my signature, but I'm sure that I skipped over it somewhere so I shall change it. Thanks for the heads-up.
| QUOTE |
| And, keepstar, since you are an atheist, I assume you believe that after we die we cease to exist, so how can we even imagine what it would be like to die before you even come out of your mother and then cease to exist? That's a real fair oppertunity now isen't it. I personally am not an atheist, I was just trying to explain what I think to Keepstar through what she believes. |
This IMO was extremely presumptuous remark. Being an atheist means you do not believe in a God, It's say's nothing about what existence means or what it entails. You cannot rubbish someone’s opinion on faith in this matter or come to a conclusion on their behalf.
The point of a debate is to put your views across as well as arguing against other peoples view. You may not like a persons view but as everyone on this thread has been reminded on many occasions you have to accept that, what some one posts is there view and that’s final. If their pro life or pro choice or unsure it's for them to decide no body else. The quote above IMO is goading another member into making a equally snappy response (which has the chance of developing into vicious circle). Lousie has explained this all in her post above in a very clear way and given examples of what is considered rude obnoxious or arrogant.
If you don't understand a members view point or want to question it there is much more polite ways of doing it, which respects everyone’s right to have an opinion on Abortion what ever it may be.
I accept that this is a contentious issue and that people have strong opinions on the matter, but that still does not excuse the creation of hostility on this forum. If you look through the run of posts since the last mod intervention you will see just how this thread has turned more and more aggressive.
As Louise Has said this is everyone's last chance to debate this thread if you can not debate it in a way which shows respect to others then I don't recommend posting here. This will be the final words on this, the issue of the way this thread runs is not up for discussion or debate, everyone on this site must respect the rules of the site, as well as those who enforce the rule irrespective of what they are discussing.
Now back to the topic please.
| QUOTE (Vincent @ Aug 18 2005, 02:35 PM) |
| I'm just trying to ask, not be arrogant or anything, but who was aggresive? I thought I was very accepting of everyone else's ideas. The only post that matched your examples, Dana, was Ravenmists about how I obviously didn't read his/her post. Just because I said that I personally don't understand someone else's views isen't aggresive or anything, I just didn't understand. I don't recall you telling me to edit my signature, but I'm sure that I skipped over it somewhere so I shall change it. Thanks for the heads-up. |
I don;t think we need to play the blame game.
But sorry Dana, i am really sorry i seem to get ahead of my self? Or get into some sort of rage. I seem to start fighting people ect, its habit i should remove instantly but i always have trouble.
Anyways, i have believe that people have the right to make there own rules for them self (if legal of course)
In other countries people have there (yes violent) hands chopped off for stealing. I think in north america we should be proud to have the rights and freedom to choose and make there own choices (given the fact we all have to make tough choices in our lives) and not be forced to do as people tell them. I find that revoking the right for young teens to adults to have the CHOICE to terminate a baby for a reason or another (from physically unable, or emotionally or even fincially ready) and that it's unethical in a way to "play god" (well in a way i just contradicted my self for making that comment) none the less, if we don't want to have an abortion, then simply...dont, its like forcing a jewish person to become a christian, you a forcing your beliefs on them and they will never change no matter how hard they try.
I do now see where you are coming from Raven. In response to your post about how if you don't want to get an abortion, then don't but don't force others to not get one, the reason that some people such as myself go farther than just worrying about ourselves in that instance if just because we believe that the mother shouldn't have the authority to kill a child, as its not her life. Parents do have control over the children in terms of punishments and the way they grow up, but the decision to end their lives? I just persoanlly don't agree with that. All the reasons that women want to have abortions are because of how it would badly effect her life, but what about the child's life? I understand and accept all of your views, and so I would like you all to respond to this. Why is the mother's life more important than the childs? Why does the mother get to end a life to make her's more important?
I hope that post was less-aggresive and more calm. I really would like people to respond to the points in my post, as some of my previous points have been skipped over(I don't mean that aggresivlely, I am just curious of how other's think about this, that's all).
I hope that post was less-aggresive and more calm. I really would like people to respond to the points in my post, as some of my previous points have been skipped over(I don't mean that aggresivlely, I am just curious of how other's think about this, that's all).
Alright, I'm going to throw my two-cents in here.
I'm not going to take a pro-life or a pro- choice side, however, I will say this:
Every woman has a different and unique situation. There really isn't any conformity in life. When faced with this very difficult situation, I think that the bottom line is that we need to respect these women for the choices they have made. Whether it is right or wrong in your(meaning everyone and anyone) eyes, we still need show compassion and understanding. So please, can we all just agree to disagree on this one?
I'm not going to take a pro-life or a pro- choice side, however, I will say this:
Every woman has a different and unique situation. There really isn't any conformity in life. When faced with this very difficult situation, I think that the bottom line is that we need to respect these women for the choices they have made. Whether it is right or wrong in your(meaning everyone and anyone) eyes, we still need show compassion and understanding. So please, can we all just agree to disagree on this one?
Well, I've been hanging back in this thread for a while. I just thought I'd check in, and say a few things
Keepstar
Keepstar
| QUOTE |
| In my opinion an having an abortion is different than commiting a murder. Here is why... If you murder someone they are effectivly living without outside help. They breath, think, have a heart beat of their own. A fetus (until the second trimester i beleive) has none of those things. They are not fully formed. The fetus can not live on it's own, can not support it's own bodily functions. In essence it's actually like removing a part of your own body. like a cancerous form or growth. I beleive abortion should only be allowed until the point when the fetus begins to control it's own functions. |
I'd like to bring up that fact that there are people in this world that can only live because they are hooked up to machines and taking medicine ten times a day. Are you saying that old people in hospital could just be... "unplugged" and it wouldn't be murder?
I mean, if they can't live without that outside help, like a fetus, then should they just be removed from that life support and die?
RavenMist
| QUOTE |
| What about those 14 year old girls who are having sex because they think it is cool. They dont know any better. A. They might die from going through the pregnency B. If they DO go through with it and live what next? Drop out of school and ruin there lives? And what about those who use protection, and are carful, protection doesnt always work. Its the female who should decide not others. This is the woman who will be suffering the pain of pregnency both physically and emotionally and don't forget mentally. Also what if it was a Rape/Incest case? Would you want to wake up every morning looking at a young baby that looks also not like you but the person who forced you too have sex? I am not pro abortion, i am pro-choice. I find it morally wrong but i believe all women deserve this choice. Because you don't want to have an abortion...then DON'T. If we did get rid of abortion, there would be more ... "attacks" with men attacking women in the stomach with baseball bats. And...people-makes-MISTAKES. Its common, people should not be PUNISHED for mistakes. I mean honestly i found you didnt even read what i said. Just think of what most females who ARE teens go through. You had a chance for an abortion, you are 15 years old and money is no object. You got pregnent and had the child and discovered...your future as you know it is gone because you did not complete high school. They basically need to be supported most of the time with welfare until the child get into about grade school so yourself can get a desent job and get yourhighschool deploma |
A girl who has sex because it makes her "cool" knows that there is a risk of getting pregnant. Yes, people make mistakes. A life should not have to be removed because of that.
A person that accidentally kills someone else is usually sentenced to jail. There is a punishment, always, but they just made a mistake, right? So why shouldn't people be allowed those mistakes?
And (I've said this at least 3 times now) just because people will always do it does not mean it should be made legal. People will always use drugs, people will always kill, people will always steal, but that does not mean these things should be legal. Just because people will do these "back alley" abortions doesn't mean abortion should be legal. If some woman chooses to make a stupid choice like that, and risk her own life, then so be it. She deserves what comes to her. This sounds harsh, rude, disrespectful, and anything else to those of you who are "pro-choice", but I am willing to bet that this is the way 99% of pro-life people think. I'm just saying it once and for all.
And as for that last comment... are you kidding? You are placing a high school education above a human life? Of all the arguments I've heard, I don't understand one bit of this argument.
Now, from the scientific point of view... why not let nature run its course? A baby will naturally die if nature wants it to, and a baby will naturally live if nature wants it to.
NOTE: While reading through what I have missed in this forum, my emotions really got built up, and I know that it came out in my post. I'm truly sorry if I offended anyone, but I just felt like I had to say these things. I am not sorry for stating what I believe, and though it sound harsh, it is the only way I can effectively communicate my beliefs (without shaking you senseless, of course
) This topic really is just going in circles, and (I know, Dana, you don't want us to say this, sorry) it is apparent that either people are not reading others posts, or they ignore the finer points. I admit, I myself don't always read everything... to be specific, I usually skim over most of Souljacker's posts, because he usually just repeats things he's said a million times, which he has to do, because no one listens to what he says. I just skim through usually, and pick out the points that seem most crucial.Whew... okay, I'm done.
EDIT, in response to Dana's post below: I understand, but I just didn't know how to say my thoughts without it coming out so forcefully. I truly didn't mean to offend anyone's beliefs or morals.
*sigh*
Okay....erm....*sigh*
Look, I don't know whether I should let this continue or not. I don't want to lock another thread like this because I know that some people really love to debate, but I do agree with Beethoven here to a certain extent that these arguments are constantly circular, people will never agree, I don't think that there can ever be a resolution whilst people differ on their moral bases, be they personal or religious and I'm getting a bit tired of it now, to be honest - or at least, the bitter arguments that we constantly have to break up.
I know how strongly you feel, Beethoven, but I also know that there are people who feel just as strongly the other way and I can just see World War 3 erupting yet again here as a result of some of those comments, so let me just say this....
EVERYONE on this thread HAS to be respectful and polite, regardless of the strength of opinion. I don't want to lock this thread, really I don't, but there is no point arguing with each other over personal beliefs and moral systems that are precisely that - HIGHLY PERSONAL, and no one is ever going to change another person's viewpoint when it comes to issues like this. Express your opinion, then move on - don't argue with other people about their beliefs...I think that's probably the best way to go.
So, please, just play nicely. If I or any of the mods see one nasty remark or inflammatory comment here, we will not hesitate to lock it. We're just far too busy elsewhere on the forum to be taking the time to post in threads like this trying to get people to understand the differences between debate and confrontation - if people don't understand the difference, then they really shouldn't be posting here.
So, consider this THE final warning for this thread. If it gets locked, you will only have yourselves to blame.
Okay....erm....*sigh*
Look, I don't know whether I should let this continue or not. I don't want to lock another thread like this because I know that some people really love to debate, but I do agree with Beethoven here to a certain extent that these arguments are constantly circular, people will never agree, I don't think that there can ever be a resolution whilst people differ on their moral bases, be they personal or religious and I'm getting a bit tired of it now, to be honest - or at least, the bitter arguments that we constantly have to break up.
I know how strongly you feel, Beethoven, but I also know that there are people who feel just as strongly the other way and I can just see World War 3 erupting yet again here as a result of some of those comments, so let me just say this....
EVERYONE on this thread HAS to be respectful and polite, regardless of the strength of opinion. I don't want to lock this thread, really I don't, but there is no point arguing with each other over personal beliefs and moral systems that are precisely that - HIGHLY PERSONAL, and no one is ever going to change another person's viewpoint when it comes to issues like this. Express your opinion, then move on - don't argue with other people about their beliefs...I think that's probably the best way to go.
So, please, just play nicely. If I or any of the mods see one nasty remark or inflammatory comment here, we will not hesitate to lock it. We're just far too busy elsewhere on the forum to be taking the time to post in threads like this trying to get people to understand the differences between debate and confrontation - if people don't understand the difference, then they really shouldn't be posting here.
So, consider this THE final warning for this thread. If it gets locked, you will only have yourselves to blame.
i think this had alot to do with this topic, but i may be stark raving mad (did i take my pills today? lol)
The FDA is in debate right now whether to make the morning after pill Plan B available (to those over17) over the counter. The problem is that many religous people have said this is murder ect. To me, the effect of Plan B is not. Here's why
*Plan B can prevent the egg from being released
*Plan B can kill sperm in the uterous
*Plan B can prevent the sperm coming on contact with the egg
*Plan B can prevent the fertilized egg attatching to the womb
If the fertilized egg has already attatched to the womb Plan B will not work.
I know that many religous groups find morning after pills the same as abortion, but i don't see how they can contest this one!
Anyone with thoughts, please respond!
The FDA is in debate right now whether to make the morning after pill Plan B available (to those over17) over the counter. The problem is that many religous people have said this is murder ect. To me, the effect of Plan B is not. Here's why
*Plan B can prevent the egg from being released
*Plan B can kill sperm in the uterous
*Plan B can prevent the sperm coming on contact with the egg
*Plan B can prevent the fertilized egg attatching to the womb
If the fertilized egg has already attatched to the womb Plan B will not work.
I know that many religous groups find morning after pills the same as abortion, but i don't see how they can contest this one!
Anyone with thoughts, please respond!
That's very interesting Keepstar... by the way, thank you for bringing something new to this topic.
I haven't ever heard of this Plan B, but I'm not sure I think it's a good idea. Here are my reasons...
Of course, you know that my religion has almost everything to do with my stance on abortion, but I always make sure that it makes sense to me. I think we should just let nature run its course. I really love nature and the natural progression of all things, and I don't think it should really be tampered with. Because of this, I feel that this pill is not good. I understand why you would say it isn't the same as abortion. But you mentioned that it kills the sperm, and I don't really like that.
This really has more to do with birth control than abortion, but I know the two are closely related. Maybe we should start a thread on birth control...
Anyway, I'd rather just stick to letting nature do as it wants.
I understand where you're coming from, though.
~Beethoven
I haven't ever heard of this Plan B, but I'm not sure I think it's a good idea. Here are my reasons...
Of course, you know that my religion has almost everything to do with my stance on abortion, but I always make sure that it makes sense to me. I think we should just let nature run its course. I really love nature and the natural progression of all things, and I don't think it should really be tampered with. Because of this, I feel that this pill is not good. I understand why you would say it isn't the same as abortion. But you mentioned that it kills the sperm, and I don't really like that.
This really has more to do with birth control than abortion, but I know the two are closely related. Maybe we should start a thread on birth control...
Anyway, I'd rather just stick to letting nature do as it wants.
I understand where you're coming from, though.
~Beethoven
I fully agree with Beethoven. 
Hi there, please check out the rules here. One liners are not allowed on the vtm forum. Thanks Shane
Hi there, please check out the rules here. One liners are not allowed on the vtm forum. Thanks Shane
I think that every woman or girl has the right to an abortion during the first three months of pregnancy. What if they had been raped? They may not want that child. If it is later than 3 months and they then decide they don't want the baby than they should carry the baby to full term and then put it up for abortion. The only time this rule should be bent is if the child has a really bad disease and ut will either kill the mother or the childs life is not worth living.
MoonGoddess:
Why do you believe that the child should be killed just because the mother doesn't "want" it? I'm just curious, not trying to start a confrotation.
In my opinion, no child's life is not worth living. Life is meant to be lived.
Why do you believe that the child should be killed just because the mother doesn't "want" it? I'm just curious, not trying to start a confrotation.
In my opinion, no child's life is not worth living. Life is meant to be lived.
| QUOTE |
| ...or the childs life is not worth living. |
I couldn't ignore this comment. A child's life is always worth living. Every life is worth living, whether it is difficult or easy, long or short.
After a great deal of discussion amongst the moderators, we have arrived at the decision to lock all of the real life issues threads. It is not a decision we have made lightly.
On behalf of all the moderators, I would like to sincerely apologise that this action has become necessary, but we all feel that there is just no choice.
This is primarily a Harry Potter Forum and although we do have this Just Get Away From Life forum for you to discuss whatever you would like to, we all feel that many of these threads are becoming out of control, nasty, personal and are detracting from the spirit not only of Harry Potter, but of this site as a whole and are moving us away from the reason we all came here in the first place.
We foster a pleasant and friendly environment here and have worked very, very hard to maintain that through our rules, but we really feel that these threads are doing far more harm than good. I am very aware that some of you posting here have been PM'ing each other, thinking that the moderators won't see you being abusive, but we always get wind of these things and this has been an additional reason for our decision.
We really don't mean to be stepping on anyone's fun here and we do feel very sorry for those of you who truly enjoyed the debates, but unfortunately, these threads have just caused far too much hassle, have taken up way too much of our time behind the scenes in sorting out problems and this has taken us away from where we need to be - mediating the HP discussions. Unfortunately, it just appears that, try as we might, we cannot get everyone to understand the difference between debating and being aggressive and confrontational and I'm afraid that we just don't have the time to devote to these anymore. All these threads do is create tension, animosity and arguments and that just isn't conducive to the type of environment we're trying to maintain here.
Again, we apologise sincerely that this has become necessary, but we really hope all the contributors here will understand.
Please don't PM the moderators about this - our decision was unanimous and final and we won't be retracting it. Also, please do not create any more threads like this as they will be closed down and the rules will very shortly be changed to accomodate this new decision.
On behalf of all the moderators, I would like to sincerely apologise that this action has become necessary, but we all feel that there is just no choice.
This is primarily a Harry Potter Forum and although we do have this Just Get Away From Life forum for you to discuss whatever you would like to, we all feel that many of these threads are becoming out of control, nasty, personal and are detracting from the spirit not only of Harry Potter, but of this site as a whole and are moving us away from the reason we all came here in the first place.
We foster a pleasant and friendly environment here and have worked very, very hard to maintain that through our rules, but we really feel that these threads are doing far more harm than good. I am very aware that some of you posting here have been PM'ing each other, thinking that the moderators won't see you being abusive, but we always get wind of these things and this has been an additional reason for our decision.
We really don't mean to be stepping on anyone's fun here and we do feel very sorry for those of you who truly enjoyed the debates, but unfortunately, these threads have just caused far too much hassle, have taken up way too much of our time behind the scenes in sorting out problems and this has taken us away from where we need to be - mediating the HP discussions. Unfortunately, it just appears that, try as we might, we cannot get everyone to understand the difference between debating and being aggressive and confrontational and I'm afraid that we just don't have the time to devote to these anymore. All these threads do is create tension, animosity and arguments and that just isn't conducive to the type of environment we're trying to maintain here.
Again, we apologise sincerely that this has become necessary, but we really hope all the contributors here will understand.
Please don't PM the moderators about this - our decision was unanimous and final and we won't be retracting it. Also, please do not create any more threads like this as they will be closed down and the rules will very shortly be changed to accomodate this new decision.
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