I wonder if this thought is another brick in the 'Snape is a good guy' argument.

I have been sort of amazed at the lengt nastiness of Harry's final detention with Snape in the HBP. It seemed so long and Snape so nasty about it, and in particular, there was no discussion or interest by Dumbledore in the presenting event, Harry's use of the or its consequence.

I think that Dumbledore knew that Malfoy was instructed to kill him, because Snape told him. Snape may have known about it because he heard about it as V. favourite or because of the Unforgiveable Curse. With this knowledge Dumbledore is desparate to keep Harry away from Malfoy, especially in light of Harry's obsession with Malfoy's intentions. The use of the 'Sectumsempra' curse by Harry on Malfoy indicates to Dumbledore how dangerous Harry's involvement in the matter had become and Snape was instructed to ensure that he did not have time to be investigating any further. JKR's representation of the detention time stresses how little time he had to himself due to the detention - implication being that he was no longer operative in the Malfoy problem.

Thus the detention, although represented as more evidence of Snape's hatred of Harry, may be an example of Snape's role of being useful in keeping Harry alive.

I think Snape is betraying Voldemort and staying loyal to Dumbledore. I think Snape is horrible to Harry, because of what happened to between Snape and Harry's father James when they were at Hogwarts. I also think that Snape was in love with Lily, but I won't go into that now the explnation will be too long. Snape has had a very hard life, we saw some of what he had experience when Harry had performed Leglimency on him by mistake in book five, OOTP. I have a feeling that somethng horrible will happen to Snape, for one thing JKR hasn't introduced suicide, and I thought she would ahve done because the books are based around love, death and power. It's just an idea...

Of course, despite of everything i said, i also think that in the 7th book, Snape might do sth so incredibly heroic that we will all love him. Its just a thought. Hope i´m right.

I don't think we will love him if we find out he has/will do something heroic, even though he might be on the right side that doesn't mean he is a nice person.

When I read HBP, my immediate reaction was that Snape was NOT betraying Dumbledore. Perhaps in book 7, we will find out just why Snape became loyal to Dumbledore in the first place. Could a life's debt be at the root of this? Could it be that Snape first began to betray Voldemort when he realized that Voldemort had killed Lily? I also believe that Snape cared very much for Lily, and may have been in love with her. Perhaps his hatred for Harry stems from his hatred for James, OR it could all just be a pretense? It could very well be that Dumbledore and Snape have for years been acting out their 'script', so to speak, in order to convince Voldemort of Snape's 'allegiance' to him.

In fact, I don't really believe that Dumbledore is dead, let alone, killed by Snape. I think it's all a ploy. I realize I am in a minority here, but it's just my feminine intuition!

hey

i like to go with my first reaction, which was that dumbledore was completely wrong, but i dont know anymore, and on the whole snape heorics- i think the only heoric thing he could do, would be die for harry, but i dont know if snape is brave enough.

I think that snape could trick dumbledore just as easy as he could trick voldemort, i mean voldemort doesnt trust anyone, including snape, and dumbledore trusts the best in everyone including snape, now is it easier to trick the one who trusts everyone of or the one who doesnt trust anyone? my guess is the one who trusts eveyone...

I agree with you 'Dumbledore's Widow', about Snape being in love with Lily, I think that is when he stopped being loyal to Voldemort and started to betray him. This may be the reason why he hates harry so much, he looks like James, but hsi personality is Lily's but Snape doesn't know that because he has never taken the time to ge to know him. Although I think Dumbledore is actually dead.

I was just discussing this the "why Voldemort spared Lilly" thread. During the first book, we know that Voldemort didn't trust Snape. He used Quirrel to enter the school to try to get the Scorcerer's Stone instead of Snape. In the fourth book, we hear Voldemort, just after he is reborn, saying that he believes Snape may never come back to him. What I'm wondering is have we ever been specifically told when Snape lost Voldemort's trust. Was it after his near death, at which time Snape stayed at Hogwarts and didn't try to find him? Was it before his death?

I have a feeling that it was because he stayed at Hogwarts while Voldemort was missing and never looked for him, but I'm not sure. I would guess that Wormtail would have told Voldemort that Snape was working for Dumbledore, since that was what he appeared to be doing (or was doing). I just wanted to check with people in here because you have been talking about this for some time. Do we know when Snape appeared to leave Voldemort?

I should add that I am on the fence about his loyalties. I believe he is either good or he is playing both sides to be the most powerful wizard.

I think Snape is loyal to the Order, for lots of reasons but after I had read lots of thories on it, I am sure that he is no longer 'truly' working for Voldemort, I think he has had to put up with a lot in his life even though he will probably never be nice to Harry, I think he will always stay true to Dumbledore because Dumbledore, saw the good in everyone.

hey guys

nicky... question?

just wondering when you say he is not truly working for voldemort what exactly do you mean?

and vulturemort, i agree that snape is either good or trying to be the best... it just doesnt seem that he is on voldy's side, he is definitly helping the order, whether it be for the good of the order or for the good of himself.

I really cant stand how you guys still possibly believe that Snape is working for the Order!!!
After he killed Dumbledore!!!

... Sorry im just a bit freaked up today... i tend to overeact sometimes...so sorry.

Im just saying that DD is so dead. And Snape has sooo killed him.
Its alright if he loved Lily... im not saying anything about that... but come on! Think on DDs expresion when Snape attacked him... if Snape wasnt going to kill him then he would have known.
The whole thing couldnt be more obvious.

I hope that Harry will find him...and like Harry said, it will be so much the better for him, so much the worse for him.
I stand on Harrys eternal thought of Snape being a bad guy. (maybe he wasnt always, but he made his choice and he certainly is now, at least to me...and only to me i think...i feel so out of place).

It would be a lough, though, if in the end Snape turns out to be good. Im generally mistaken with my theories, see.

There's so much discussion on whether Snape is good or evil so I thought I'd throw in my two cents. I think there are a lot of clues. At one point on OoTP, Harry is told that the Order comes before any one individual member. If Snape's job was to be an "undercover agent" (so to speak), then making the unbreakable oath and killing Dumbledore would have been necessary to protect his identity. And did you question the argument Hagrid overhears between Dumbledore and Snape in HBP? Snape says that he doesn't want to do whatever it was he was assigned to do, but Dumbledore tells him he MUST follow through with it (again sounds like it points toward the Order being more important than its members). And one of the more convincing clues is the statement by Dumbledore when Harry tells him of of the argument he overheard between Snape and Malfoy. Harry says something to the effect of, "Don't you understand?" (I would quote directly, but I don't have the books in front of me). Dumbledore says that he DOES understand and that perhaps Harry should consider that, with all of his (Dumbledore's) intelligence, maybe he even understood it BETTER than Harry. Sounds like Dumbledore has a better idea of what's really going on than what everyone (including the characters in the book) are lead to believe.

I'm heavily leaning on the side of Snape being "good." I don't think Rowling would have built Dumbledore up through 6 books, constantly commenting on his skill as a wizard and his extraordinary intelligence, only to have that torn down in an instant. Seems like a waste to have Harry depend on someone whose judgement turns out to be undependable.

I mean that he is kind of like a spy, he pretends to be faithful and on his side to Voldemort when actually he is passing information about Voldemorts plans to the Order.

If it was up to Snape, he would be on Voldemorts side. its being kept from him, though because of his magical bond. He was saved by James, and killed James. So he basically owes James twice. He has yet to save Harry (In SS, Hermione saved him in the Quid Match)

His debt keeps him on the good side, but his heart wants to be with Voldemort. This is why DD trusts him. Because magically, he cannot harm Harry or anyone close to Harry. I'm suggesting that Snape was told to kill DD. So in reality (or more so a technicality) he did not harm him. Why DD would want to be killed,...not sure? unless he was a horcrux, but I doubt that, and plus thats for a different thread.

I know theres lots of stuff that seem to point that Snape is actually good.
I wish he was, i always thought he was, he was one of my favourite characters. I know, it sounds so funny coming from me, but he really was.

Its just that this is the way things are. I already accepted that Dumbledore is dead. I loved DD, and i couldnt be more sad about what happened, but it has, and theres nothing we can do about it.
And, honestly, book6 is my favourite ever so far. It was so really really great. And i just think that if Rowling suddenly put everything what happened in HPB upside down, she would ruin book7

Dont get the wrong idea from this, im sure that JK will write a wonderful book under any circumstance, and im not saying that i wouldnt like DD to be alive...i just think that things are so interesting right now that i wouldnt change a thing.

And, for another thing, i trust that Snape may still do sth good in book7. Maybe save Harry or sth. But he definitly is with Voldemort to me right now, and he definitly killed Dumbledore.

well i agree with arwen when she says that snape killed dd but thats not either here or there, and i think no matter what jk writes book7 will be amazing.

but i think that snape is good, because i think that dd would be harder to trick than voldemort, well atleast i hope

I think what it's just a game for him.

He is spy, but brilliant spy.
And the both sides are sure what he is their servant.


But.. they making a mistake..

patronium

so your suggestting he is loyal to neither, and both at the same time? He is just in it for himself trying to stay afloat, and gain as much power as possible... interesting
I do like this theory

He is like Voldemort but he I not his servant.

Snape is want to be a great. He want glory and use all the ways to reach it.

I think Snape has wanted attention all of his life, especially since what had happened at Hogwarts,when he was a teenager with him being jealous of James. I think he is betraying Voldemort but staying loyal to Dumbledore, because he wants t feel special and important to the Order and he also feels he wants to pay back Dumbledoer because he has been so kind to him.

it is really hard to decide who snape is really betraying . if anybody he his betraying it would i think be dumador (i spelled that wrong). i really dont think dumador would give up his life.

Exactly - he need this. Feeling of himself importance.

It book - is example of teen world.
It's teach us never to scoff at others

On the contrary, i believe that Snape would feel a lot more important working for Voldemort. Remember how did the other DeadEaters treared him in the Tower?With this great respect.
I think that Snape is loyal to Voldemort, because he doesnt want anyones pitty. He hated Dumbledore defending him as much as he hated when Lily did.
I believe he kindof identifies himself with Voldemort. There actually are some likenesses between them.

hmmm

the order members do seem to respect him tho, because he gets down and dirty, he gets the useful info on vl, without him they are in a bad way. so if he was just looking for glory and praise it would seem fitting that he was just working for himself, giving each side the info they needed, but not enough where the other side got suspicious,

AND dd would definitly give up his life, he has proven that, when he uses his blood instead of harrys, it is much smaller than life but i think that with the sacrifice of his blood instead of harrys, it reflects his bigger sacrafice of his life for the cause of good.

[font=Tahoma] He is, or should I say was, betraying Dumbledore! There's no question about it. He is a filthy little liar and i will NEVER forgive him!

I'm not sure how anyone can like DD and think that he wouldn't have given up his life to defeat the dark arts. He's already proven that he considers defeating Voldemort as more important than his own worth (blackened hand from destroying a horcrux?). That's the mark of a true hero - someone who is ready to give up their life for their cause. I'm not saying that DD "wanted" to be killed (as some people have put it), but he was willing to pay that price because of the importance of having someone on the inside (Snape). I don't think it was coincidental that JK talks of Snape making the unbreakable vow with Narcissa and next thing talks about DD telling Harry that they will be having private lessons together during that term. DD knew he was going to die and was preparing Harry to continue on to destroy the horcruxes.

Do you remember - when Dumbledore's hand was damaged by Marvolo's Ring (and almost not kill him) the Severus Snape has cured him.

Yep, i know that Snape healed him. But look at it this way.
1- DD trusted him at the moment about what he was doing, about his horcruxes theory.
2- Snape healed him, as he didnt have any specifical orders of letting nor making DD die.
3- DD asked Snape to get information about any other horcruxes.
4- Snape went and told Voldemort about what had happened. Voldemort got crazy (you bet) as he found out that DD had destroyed one of his horcruxes and to the the mere fact that he knew about them.
5- Voldemort began to look for his other horcruxes, see whether they were safe or not. He found out that the diary had already been destroyed as well, and he got soooo mad with Lucius.
6- (now here i am supposing) Maybe Voldemort found out that the real horcrux was no longer in the cave. This has been discussed in other topics (Back to the cave, i think...sorry if im mistaken, cant quite remember where exactly). What im saying is that maybe Voldemort knew that there was a fake locket in there, and so he sent Snape t send Dumbledore after a fake clue.
7- Snape did. He told DD that there was a horcrux in the cave, and he gave him the exact location.
And we know the rest of the story. DD went...weakned himself...went to the tower...lost his wand...Snape appeared...DD dead.
And so Snape made his job with perfection (claps to his such great EVILNESS)

This is sort of complicated, though.
And... Ok i know i have said this theory of mine hundreds times already, but it just seems so likely to me.
And it again puts Snape in the Bad Guy position (i stand on this).

yeh i think that snape could be bad, but how can you explain away all the good things he has done, do we know that he has done bad things, other than killing dd, i cant think of any if you can please let me know so we can discuss them.

I think Snape is betraying both parties concerned. Remeber the GOF and the Quiddditch cup final and Krum caught the snitch to end it on his terms. I think that this is the exact same thing that Snape's doing. He playing both parties and he is the ultimate controller of this war...Not Voldy..Not Dumbledore...Not Harry ..but Snape.. I think that this is his goal....

I mean he killed Dumbledore (Based on dumbledore's ordres or not) ...he killed DD...

Even Voldy's afriad of DD..


Just goes to show about Snape...

Oh and I also think the only reason Snape never killed Harry is because so long as Harry's is alive....Snape's in control.

Or may be he jsut fancied Lily... and remember Harry's eyes...

I completely agree with you, I think Dumbledore knew he was going to die pretty soon, and I also think he knew it was Draco Malfoy sending the necklace into the castle (well it didn't get very far) but Dumbledore thought it was best not to say anything otherwise Snape would have to step in. Remember the unbreakable vow?

I've found an editorial which supports my idea that Snape is loyal to Dumbledoer and the Order but isn't to Voldemort. You can find it here.

I read the editorial... though very interesting, it doesnt give us anything new. Basiclly, the conclusion is that Snape is loyal only to himself.
I guess i sort of suport this thought. Snape´s been playing come and go all along the serie.
What the theory did leave in clear was that DD is really dead, and that Snape killed him. Because he didnt have a choice? I dont think so. He had plenty of choices. Theres always a choice. Its obvious that he really intended to kill Dumbledore.

Yeah, it's very strong moment when Snape makes the Unbreakable Vow.
Especially the third vow - if it seems Draco will fail - the moment of silense.. the moment of verdict to Dumbledore.. =(

What exactly dyou mean by the third vow and all the rest? Sorry, i just cant get it.

I mean what since this moment Snape understands that Dumbledore is doomed =)

I've found another editiorial, which supports the idea that Snape was in love with Lily. Now I know this won't seem like it has anything to do with whether Snape is betraying Voldemort, or Dumbledore or if he is only loyal to himself. But...

I think if Snape was in love with Lily, when Voldemort killed her it broke Snape's heart and he hated Voldemort, so he decided to become a spy for Dumbledore and betray Voldemort.

I think when Snape and Wormatail found out about the prophecy, and they had told Voldemort. I think Snape asked him for a favour, and that favour was not to kill Lily. Voldemort agreed and that is why he gave her the chance to live. It says this in book 3, POA (sorry I don't have the book at the moment I have leant it out to soemone.) When Harry gets those kind of flashbacks when he became face to face with Demontors.

When she wouldn't move, Voldemort killed Lily. This didn't necessarily change what Snape believed in being and who he was, but it broke his heart so much, and he couldn't stay faithful to his master any longer, who had taken away the one person he had cared about in his life.

I still think Snape is evil, and if Lily wasn't killed by Voldemort Snape would probably still be faithful to Voldemort, and he wouldn't be betraying him.

If you would like to read the editorial, click here.

I have considered that possibility before. I haven't read the editorial to be honest (because I refuse to give The-Site-That-Shall-Not-Be-Named any hits after the 'delusional' comments a certain person made - I don't like arrogant people) but I can imagine what it says.

I am for the Snape loved Lily theory because I see a base for it in canon, but I don't like it I'm afraid. As it stands, I don't like Lily very much anyway, but I really do think that there's an awful lot in the books to support the ideas you've suggested.

There's just one thing that niggles me about it - I really don't think that Voldemort would consider anything that Snape asked him to do. The thing is that, as Dumbledore said, Snape had no way of knowing who Voldermort would go after. That does explain why he may have returned to the good side (if he was grief-stricken over Lily) but it doesn't explain why Voldemort gave her a chance to live. If Snape didn't know who Voldemort was going to go after, then he wouldn't have been able to ask him to spare Lily and even had he been able to, there was no reason for Voldemort to grant his request. It just doesn't seem in his nature.

I don't have the book with me right now, so I'm not entirely sure about the accuracy of this, but I am pretty sure that he didn't exactly give her a chance to live, per se. What he did was tell her that her death was unnecessary, he just wanted her to get out of the way. I don't think he was being merciful in any way, he was just operating as though it were a business transaction. Why waste two curses when one would suffice?

I don't want to drift too off topic with this because there are other threads here discussing the Snape/Lily theory, but the motivation certainly could explain a reason why Snape is truly on Dumbledore's side - if the grief was deep enough. Frankly, I just don't buy the story Dumbledore gave Harry - it was pathetic and he was a fool if he believed that.

Just one point I realized when I was re-reading HBP. Hopefully no one has mentioned this before. When Snape was aroused by Flitwick about the Death Eaters, why did he have to stun him? He could have brought Hermione, luna and Flitwick back with him, gone to the Astronomy Tower, killed Dumbledore, and left. No one would be the wiser. I think Snape is truly evil. The person that will be doing the next side switching will be Peter Pettigrew.

Thats brilliant! I hadnt thought of that. The thing of scumming Flitwick... its a good point.
And it wasnt that he only wanted to make it look that he was with the Death Eaters just in case. Snape is evil to me.

I'm doubt, but i prefer to believe: Snape is bad. I wish he is good, he help Harry to fight against Voldie... but i can't. Snape is cold, false and gave proofs: he has many chances to be a traitor. His talk with Belatrix and Dracus' mother leave me in doubt... he was not sure when swore her he'll do what Voldemort wanted, in the case, kill Dumbledore. He was thinking a little bit. If he is so loyal to Voldie, why was he thinking before to agree to do that? If i was in his place and loyal to Voldie, i won't think, immediately i'll say: "Yes, I'll do it; I will do what Dark Lord wants if Dracus was not able". So i'm still doubt.

I still am on the borderline...I at first flat out believed that Snape was bad. Then I flat out believed he was good. One pattern I noticed was that in all the books, Harry always came up with a conclusion around the beginning of the book that was false.
PS-Snape was trying to steal the stone
CoS-Malfoy opened the chamber
PoA-Sirius Black betrayed his parents
GoF-Karkaroff was trying to get him killed
OotP-Voldemort was searching for a weapon stronger than the Avada Kedavra
All of these conclusions have been wrong, and then the right conclusion has been revealed to him at the end of the book. Perhaps then, when Harry comes up with the right conclusion (that Malfoy is planning something dangerous), then the wrong conclusion is revealed at the end? Just a thought.

Well, what you are saying does make sense.
But i always thought that JK wouldnt make Harry so stubborn about Snape and Malfoy for nothing. The way i see it, or she wanted to proove that he was right in the end or,on the contrary, she wanted to proove that bad people turn out to bee good. Or at least, that they can change.
As i suppose we cant expect a happy utopic ending like in Star Wars (Voldemort becoming good), i think we do could expect Snape to do sth good in the end.
Though i still believe Snapes bad and that he killed Dumbledore. But... if he is human, he shall regret what he did and pay back his mistake (if i can call it a mistake).
I know, i kinda contradict myself in here...but Snape himself is a big fat contradiction.

Sanpe i think is working on orders of Dumbledore but not to help the masses at general but to fill up for his mistake for telling Voldemort the prophecy.
ya i think he is not proud on wht he did. so basiically Snape is neither working dor Voldemort or Dumbledore . and this must be the reason why Dumbledore had argued with him (wht hagrid told) Dumbledore knows that Snape ain't on either side but is not evil all the same. By the way Dumbledore had argued with Snape after Harry told him that he had made an Unbreakeable VOW . Dumbledore must have realised tht there was no loop through this and forced snape to take his life before malfoy could even attempt. that is why (i think) Dumbledore was so desperate to call for Sanpe as soon as they reached back to Hogsmead. He did not want any1 else kill him except snape.

I'm new to this site so forgive me if I repeat things that may have been discussed already. I have spent most of the day reading this thread and consulting my copy of HBP. I feel Snape is out for himself. It was pointed out earlier that Snape stopped to think about his loyalties when he took the Unbreakable Vow. Perhaps it was only to see if he had any other options. Snape as we all know is the master at being able to wiggle out of any situation. His ability to be a double agent depends on this quality. If he took the Vow he would no longer be able to play both sides.( or would he? ) I believe his hesitation, and later when his hand was clasped in Narcissa's( his hand twitched the only outward sign of hesitation on his part) was only regret that he had no more wiggle room so to speak. He was now committed to a course of action.

The argument between Snape and Dumbledore was also brought up alot in this thread. I think Dumbledore realized that Snape could no longer be at his side and remain trusted by Voldemort. ( Why else would Voldemort send Wormtail to "assist" Snape? Could it be to keep an eye on him?) I think Dumbledore was going to send Snape back to Voldemorts side in preparation for the final battle. Dumbledore knew that if Snape could get Voldemort's trust in him back, Snape could be used as a valuable and deadly weapon. I think Dumbledore's death was part of that plan.

I know that last bit sounded like an argument for Snape being good but it wasn't. Snape has once again put himself in a position to help himself. With Dumbledore dead Voldemort is in a better position to force the last battle on his terms. Snape being at Voldemorts side will be in the best possible position to back the winning side, which ever or who ever it may be.

I bow to Snape's genius once again he comes out on top.

snape=good
snape=1337 at tricking people
snape=the savior of the whole wizarding world
pwnt

Er....

Hi and welcome to the forums. Hope you enjoy it here as much as I have.

That being said, please have a read of the rules. You've used - is it leetspeak? - which is grouped under netspeak which isn't allowed. It makes your posts harder to read, like this one.

I'm also going to ask that you lengthen your posts a bit. This is a discussion forum, and your post hasn't really added anything to the discussion, in part because of the netspeak, and in part because it was so short. So elaborate a bit, let us know what you're thinking. We'd love to hear it.

Thanks,

QQS

i'm really on the fence when it comes to snape, all the evidence is outwardly pointing to him, but then i get to think when does what we think the obvious thing is Jk throws us a wrench. I understand all three theories "he is; he isnt; he's in it for himself" but everything seems to be based on points that Jk has been obvious with. For example, a whole chapter with belletrix and narcissa, proclaiming his loyalty to voldemort and what about the agruement Hagrid just happens to overhear. Dumbledore has been able to sense harry in a room cloaked or uncloaked so sensing hagrid should be easy, its all a little too obvious for me. Now i do like the whole fox theory and the connection to the prince, ive been reading a little about it and i really think its interesting. i could definetly see him doing it all for himself; a little glory for himself after all the shadows he have lived under. and as for being bad, well theres obvious examples of that too.
So if i had to pick one i think i'd pick the theory he's in it for himself. the fox in HBP is odd and random a very JK thing to do. but that still just doesnt sit well for me either. so i gues im back to where i started. tough subject. I like snape. i think he deserves some inner peace. whatever side he is on he's been double or triple agenting it for a long time and i think he should be able to just be himself and have some peace. I would like to see him live so he could find some happiness(as long as he's good), poor snape.

The only explanation I can give is this:

Snape was in love with Lilly
Lilly prefered James. Although Snape was still in love with her when he heard the prophecy...
When he found out how LV translate the prophecy he hates himself because he provoqued her death and LV because he killed her...

That's why he came back to DD and I think he is really betraying LV....

Why he killed DD we are going to find out in the last book, because we don't know how AK works, if DD is immortal and wat is this connection between Fawkes.....

i completely agree with you...i love how rowling casually slips in essential information like that. i do think that snape would be the "dark and troubled man", and the part about "being mad at the questioner" goes along with my belief that dumbledore telepathically asked snape to kill him and that snape is loyal to dumbledore. i would be beyond shocked if snape turned out to be on voldemort's side.