rachel_1989
Aug 27 2006, 04:09 PM
QUOTE
2 of spades... conflict
7 of spades... a bad omen
9 of spades... violence
knave of spades... a dark troubled man, who may be mad at the questioner...
i did this from memory so if someone else can find the real quote please post i dont have the time
but i was thinking why would jkr put this if it wasnt important it just seems to interesting to be "filler"
so i thought about what happens after this...
conflict- well hagrid over hears albus and snape arguing
a bad omen- the dark mark over the castle
violence- snape killing dumbledore!
now the next part im a little confused, a dark troubled man... well snape could be considered dark, because of his obsession with the dark arts, and troubled... he doesnt want to kill dumbledore but made the vow, and if dumbledore asked snape to kill him, then snape would be mad at the questioner right?
PLEASE TELL ME WHAT YOU THINK!!!
nice thought there, just another couple of thoughts on the last bit, it could be wormtail since he is obviously dark with the whole being loyal to voldemort and seeling harry's parents out thing and he has a life debt to harry so tried to persuade voldemort to use someone else instead but voldemort questioned this so wormtail may be mad at him.
or it could be voldemort himself, theres no arguing that he is dark and has had a fairly troubled life with being in an orphanage, etc and dumbledore questioned why he wanted to be defence against the dark arts teacher and refused him the job so voldemorts obviously going to be mad at him for that
or it could even be harry, dark doesnt necessarily mean evil, it could be a literal meaning, such as harry's dark hair, or the fact that hes mad at the world at the minute so is feeling dark and hes definately troubled, as for the questioner im not 100% sure about that yet since its a thought that only just came into my head, i was going to stick to the wormtail theory and then just the voldemort one but this one appeared as well so....i guess the questioner could have been dumbledore in the cave in the Half Blood Pronce for not letting harry drink the water the locket was supposed to be in instead of doing it himself or it could be somebody we havent seen yet and they appear in the last book.
as for who snape is loyal to, im not sure, id like to think that its dumbledore and the order and that as well as making the unbreakable vow to narcissa, he made one to dumbledore that we dont know about saying that he wouldnt unveil himself as loyal to the order if dumbledore was in danger and that if necessary he would kill dumbledore to make voldemort think that he was loyal to him and the other death eaters thought yeah, i guess he could be looking out for number 1 but i dont think thats the case, hes too smart to think that he could get away with playing both sides for long, he did something to earn dumbledore's trust and that had to be something big, i just hope we find out what it is one day but thats not the point, i think hes good and that we will see that in the end, but it would be just like JKR to make us all think its a big conspiracy and that snapes actually good even though he looks evil and then to make us all feel like fools for thinking t and hes actually evil after all, but hey, im being cynical...
penny for your thoughts?
rach xxx
Fabian
Aug 27 2006, 06:54 PM
I think that Snape is only really loyal to himself. I think that he does whatever is in his best interest. I have heard all the theories that Dumbledore ordered Snape to kill him and I don't beleive that for one second. I beleive that is impossible for one simple reason, "murder rips the soul in half". Dumbledore knew how BAD that was. Dumbledore would NEVER ask someone to do rip their soul in half....so i really think that Snap is not just betraying one peron in particular....he is just doing what is best for him at the time...
yuzna
Aug 27 2006, 08:14 PM
I always thought the quote "Knave of spades: a dark young man, possibly troubled, one who dislikes the questioner" refered to Harry who was hiding just out of sight of her. I mean he has dark hair, is troubled and really dislikes the questioner

So I guess she does get the predictions right sometimes

As for Snape, well you know he is a master at occlumancy so he can probably hide stuff from anyone. I have a feeling that Dumbledore knew exactlly what was going to happen, and was willing to sacrifice his own life in order to save both Malfoy and Snape. So as far as I am concerned everything has been going the way dumbledore has foreseen. The fact that Malfoy survived will probably play out in Harry's favor int he last book. Then again, maybe I am just naive and like to think the best out of people
rachel_1989
Aug 27 2006, 08:29 PM
i like the idea of Harry being the dark young man, troubled and disliking the questioner but i do have to ask you who you think the questioner is?
witchmom
Aug 28 2006, 02:42 AM
Hmmm...what about Snape calling the Order to save Harry at the Ministry of Magic? he could have done nothing, simply acting as he didn't understand Harry's shout (He's got Padfoot!). But he did call the other members of the Order and he ruined Voldemort's plans.
I find it a proof of Snape's loyalty to Dumbledore and the Order. I am deeply convinced that Dumbledore knew everything about Snape's actions and they had talked previously in general of what might possibly happen during a fight. Dumbledore should have known about Snape's unbreakable vow. That's the thought I have since I read HBP. All takes to the primary requirement of the war (by the Order's side of course) which is keeping Harry alive, and they both knew it.
Witchmom )O(
yuzna
Aug 28 2006, 04:33 AM
Well, the way I see it the questioner is obviously Professor Trelawney. She is reading the answers of the cards outloud, which could be concieved as though she is questioning them,(that is to say questioning the future) especially when she reads that one which she is questioning

Seems like a catch 22, but that is the way of Trelawney's field isn't it?
rachel_1989
Aug 28 2006, 08:37 AM
hey i like the bit about Snape calling the Order in, i had completely forgotten about that so it's a really good argument except that it wouldn't be feasible that Snape wouldn't understand Harry's message about Padfoot since it was well known by the Order that he knew who Padfoot was and so if Harry did survive without the Order's help he would tell Dumbledore that he had warned Snape and so would blow a hole in any plans to play Dumbledore for a fool, I don't think that's true though since I don't think Harry could have survived without the Order's help but just a thought...
im not sure i understand what you mean about Trelawny being the questioner, I can get my head around that but then who does it leave as the young man?
Little_Lily_Potter
Aug 28 2006, 01:16 PM
I believe that Snape is perhaps good, he could have killed Dumbledore as a decoy, or have killed him under Dumbledores orders. Also, Dumbledore may be alive, Harry survived the killing curse because Lily gave him her love, Harry loves Dumbledore as a guardian, so could it be possible that Dumbledore is playing dead, just a theory, but...
Snapeisgood
Aug 28 2006, 02:48 PM
The event on the highest tower is not a proof. Snape had no other choice than to kill Dumbledore. If he was on Voldemort's side, than, he kill him. If he's on Dumbledore side, he have to kill him off, because if he doesn't, than, all the DE he fooled these last year would know his true loyaltie.
Snape calling the order, I thought about that too. But there's a more important question, how Snape did know that Padfoot was sirius. That's for another thread, but still.
knave of spades... a dark troubled man, who may be mad at the questioner...
The Dark troubled man could clearly be Snape and the questioner Dumbledore. If it's, then it would look like Dobby and Harry. Dobby tell Harry he would throw himself off the highest tower if Harry is not happy of Dobby's job. Who may be mad at the questioner. That fit!
Loopy_Luna
Aug 28 2006, 07:43 PM
Snape is definately betraying Voldermort. I am sure in book Seven that we are going to find out more proof as to why Dumbledore was adamant that he is no longer a deatheater. How we find this out I am not sure.
It may be information given by Dumbledore himself, either through Dumbledores will or Information given to Harry from Dumbledores portrait, again possibly left to Harry in his will.
What if Harry is given this information and told to trace Snape and he will help him in his quest for the Horcrux's. Will Harry learn to trust and obey Dumbledores orders.
lilyluvr
Aug 28 2006, 08:46 PM
ok,well my theory is that snape is is totally on voldemorts side.i think that cuz in the 6th book,it said there was hatred showing on snapes face,when he killed dumbldore.so i think he always hated dumbledore,he just never showed it because he knew dumbldore would find out or something.i think he was a spy for voldy all this time.i dont even know why dumbledore trusted snape,i knew snape would do something traitorus in the end.
rachel_1989
Aug 28 2006, 09:49 PM
i'm gonna haveto agree with Luna on the whole "Snape is good" thing. the hatred in his face could just as easily have been hatred towards himself for what he was doing, though i hadn't thought about what Dumbledore's will might contain, don't think he would leave everything to Harry though but that's not the point...i don't think Harry will trust Snape very easily, nor do i think Dumbledore would send Harry to Snape if he's supposed to appear to be working for Voldemort, it would look to suspicious to Voldemort and the other Death Eaters.
Albus Dumbledore
Aug 29 2006, 02:04 AM
JKR used those same words to describe harry feeding Dumbledore the potion in the cave.... " hatred and revulsion for what he was doing" (paraphrased)... This si then used to explain Snapes Face... "Hatred and revulsion etched on his hard face"... I believe, like Harry, Snape did not want to kill Dumbledore... but was ordered to do as he was told.... there is an unsurmounting pile of evidence leaning toward the innocence of Prof. Snape.
!Albus
hp6
Aug 29 2006, 03:00 AM
QUOTE
2 of spades... conflict
7 of spades... a bad omen
9 of spades... violence
knave of spades... a dark troubled man, who may be mad at the questioner...
i did this from memory so if someone else can find the real quote please post i dont have the time
but i was thinking why would jkr put this if it wasnt important it just seems to interesting to be "filler"
so i thought about what happens after this...
conflict- well hagrid over hears albus and snape arguing
a bad omen- the dark mark over the castle
violence- snape killing dumbledore!
now the next part im a little confused, a dark troubled man... well snape could be considered dark, because of his obsession with the dark arts, and troubled... he doesnt want to kill dumbledore but made the vow, and if dumbledore asked snape to kill him, then snape would be mad at the questioner right?
im not entirely sure but i think i remeber something like this back in on an older page, is that where you got this from?
QUOTE
Hmmm...what about Snape calling the Order to save Harry at the Ministry of Magic? he could have done nothing, simply acting as he didn't understand Harry's shout (He's got Padfoot!). But he did call the other members of the Order and he ruined Voldemort's plans.
well it could be that at the time he was loyal to dumbledore but sometime since then switched sides once more.
QUOTE
The event on the highest tower is not a proof. Snape had no other choice than to kill Dumbledore. If he was on Voldemort's side, than, he kill him. If he's on Dumbledore side, he have to kill him off, because if he doesn't, than, all the DE he fooled these last year would know his true loyaltie.
but would it matter if they new his true loyalty was to dumbledore he'd be dead, so it wouldnt matter right?
QUOTE
JKR used those same words to describe harry feeding Dumbledore the potion in the cave.... " hatred and revulsion for what he was doing" (paraphrased)... This si then used to explain Snapes Face... "Hatred and revulsion etched on his hard face"...
very very true albus, this is a very good catch on jk's use of those words
VeneficusFerox
Aug 29 2006, 03:49 AM
Hello all,
I believe Snape is really betraying Voldemort.
I am sure we will find out exactly why Dumbledore trusts Snape so much in the 7th book. There are many theories out there, but I simply chose to stick by Dumbledore as he has never really let us down through out the series. And seeing as how he never wavered in his conviction that Snape was good, even when the odds are against Snape, I chose to believe him above all theories still. I think he petrified Harry because he knew he would do something rash when he saw what Snape was about to do. I believe he knew about the unbreakable vow and most likely told Snape to perform it because he would never allow an innocent child [Draco], however misguided he was, to commit murder. Especially when through out the 6th book we see that Draco really is having second thoughts. He has always placed much importance on his students no matter who they are.
I believe that even though Snape said the words “Avada Kedavra”, as we all know, you really have to mean them… its not just a matter of saying them. Also, I think, and please correct me if I’m wrong, that it is the 1st time we read the Avada curse blasting someone in the air. I think he just spoke the words, but meant another spell in his mind… I think it is plausible coming from Snape as he emphasizes on Harry the fact that he better keep his mouth and mind shut when casting a spell as they are duelling when Harry is trying to stop him from escaping. I think this also ties into my theory because I think Snape wants to emphasize that point since he knows if Harry can’t shut his mind, then he has no chance of beating Lord Voldemort. Lastly, Snape gets very offended when he is called a coward by Harry, and I think it is because he just fooled everyone into thinking that he really killed Dumbledore… He just became the 2nd most wanted wizard… nowhere is safe for him. I believe at the last moment he will turn on Voldemort, but most likely will die in the process… a la Darth Vader in the return of the Jedi…

maybe?
Well, I hope this is of help to some
rachel_1989
Aug 29 2006, 11:15 AM
I think you're right, VenificusFerox, there has to be some reason why Dumbledore trusts/trusted Snape so implicitly. I mean, even though he likes to see the good in people he can accept that it just isn't there in some, i.e Voldemort, Lucious Malfoy, etc so there must have been some proof about Snape being good. Maybe Dumbledore is better and leglimens than Snape is at occlumency or something?
He does seem to be trying to help Harry when he tells him to keep his mouth and mind closed but at the same time he seems to be enjoying it and taunting Harry for it. But I have been wondering about why he got so offended when Harry called him a coward, perhaps it's because it took a lot of courage to "kill" Dumbledore even though he didn't want to or perhaps he has some misgiven feelings of self-grandeur. I still reckon he's good - just have to wait and see...
lilyluvr
Aug 29 2006, 08:10 PM
i think snape is on voldemorts side cuz voldemort said "once a death eater,always a death eater"or something like that (i dont have my book with me right now) but if snape was betraying voldemort,voldy would probably know.i mean,voldy is evil,but hes not stupid,and if snape was on dumbldores side,voldy would know and im sure try to kill him.plus,snape calls voldy "the Dark Lord" and only death eaters call voldemort that.
rachel_1989
Aug 29 2006, 09:34 PM
"Once a Death Eater always a Death Eater" doesn't really stand up though if you think about it, it would be like saying "once a criminal always a criminal" in our world and that's just not true, it is possible to change. As for Voldemort knowing it would depend on whether or not Snape is better at occlumens than Voldemort is at leglimency which I reckon is possible, he does seem to have a slight obsession with it. Snape calling Voldemort "The Dark Lord" could just be habit from his Death Eater days and most people don't call it him because he's He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named because they're too scared to call him anything else.
lilyluvr
Aug 29 2006, 11:14 PM
yes.that might be true but criminals dont have the dark mark imprinted on their arm! snape feels the burn,and he cant just say a spell and itl vanish,itll always be there,therefore,he will always be a death eater.also,he even said in the begininng of the 6th book that he was practicly using dumbldores protection so he wont go to azkaban, he was a spy for voldy,and that voldy told snape to take the post in hogwarts.re-read chapter 2,spinners end in the 6th book if you dont believe me.
VeneficusFerox
Aug 30 2006, 12:29 AM
Hello all,
Im all for Snape being on the good side... even if he is a prick
It is true that Voldemort marked all his followers. However, it is possible to at least turn from him. Chances are you will end up dead, but it does not always stand true that “once a death eater always a death eater”. Proof of this can be seen with Kakaroff… he did not want to have anything else to do with the death eaters any more… He was scared when he saw the mark reappear, eventually ran away, and got killed for it. I still feel that if Dumbledore was so ready to believe Snape, then he had a mighty good reason for it. Dumbledore never says help me before he dies… simply “please”. Most people just assume it meant “please” [help me]. It actually makes sense that Dumbledore did not want anyone to know why he trusted Snape so much… I mean what would any of them have said if Dumbledore had told them that Snape was destined to kill him?… I think Dumbledore really died in corporeal form, but I am sure we might see him as a spirit guiding Harry in the last book perhaps… he would have not just sacrificed his body for nothing either.
Rachel_1989, about him enjoying taunting Harry for not being able to shut his mind properly, well, I think even though he is on the good side, it does not mean he has to like Harry... I think Harry simply reminds him too much of James and Sirius, but he is not about to mess everything up because deep down he knows a future with Voldemort would be worse
guess thats my 2 cents for now... take care all
rachel_1989
Aug 30 2006, 09:01 AM
lilyluvr, if you look at who Snape was talking to in Spinner's End it will help explain to you whay he would have said that, he was talking to Death Eaters so even if he was good he would have to come up with some reason of why he was still working at Hogwarts so him saying he was using Dumbledore's protection to stay out of Azkaban does not automatically make him a Death Eater and just because a person has what is basically a tattoo on their arm it doesn't mean that they can never be a good person.
VeneficousFox, I agree with you about him being good and also about him not liking Harry because he is reminded of James and Sirius and even, if people's theories are true, Lily, the girl he loved and lost.
lilyluvr
Aug 30 2006, 08:23 PM
o jeez.u guys dont understand tho is that if snape was on the good side,voldy would know! he knew karakoff was not on the bad side so he got killed! voldy wud know (sorry,im not really spelling well) if snape was on the good side or not! i dont mean to be a know-it-all or anything,im just saying my point of veiws.
rachel_1989
Aug 30 2006, 10:03 PM
Voldemort knew that Karkaroff had abandoned him because he just plain old didn't turn up when he was called, Snape went 2 hours later and so Voldemort could have thought that he was keeping his cover with Dumbledore before returning to his side. It also depends on whether or not Snape is well enough equipped at Occlumency to be able to lie to Voldemort.
Albus Dumbledore
Aug 31 2006, 12:19 AM
Yes Rachel_1989, you are correct... we are told explicitly that Snapes ability at Occlumency is the best, and this allows himself to continue in the employ of Voldemort... Some will say that Voldemort would know when a mind is being from him, but i believe that, as with everything to do with the mind. Occlumency is very complex... it may mask what you wants it to mask, while bringing up memories, or faux memories to substantiate the position you are trying to make for yourself... in this case Snape wants to look Death Eater spy on the great Dumbledore.
hermione rox
Aug 31 2006, 03:17 AM
If Snape was on Voldy's side, than how come Dumbledore trusted him so much?
We all know that Dumbledore isn't some crackpot old fool or anything.
If Snape was truly on Voldy's side, Dumbledore would probably know and not let him join the Order of the Phoenix. The fight in the woods that Hagrid witnessed was most likely some sort of fight where Snape refused to join in the "death" of Dumbledore, Dumbledore was insisting that doing that would prove to be very significant.
Albus Dumbledore
Aug 31 2006, 03:21 AM
Yes I think Snape is good, but the Occlumency can be used on the flipside as well. If Snape can fool Voldemort, then as much as I dont want to admit it... he could fool Dumbledore... he would use Dumbledore's weakness for the power of love and weave a tale of remorse to melt Dumbledore's defenses.... but i think he is good so I think he did just that, proved himself worthy because of love.... his love for lily perhaps... which would be regret than of tellin LV the prophecy!
~albus
rachel_1989
Aug 31 2006, 06:10 PM
Well we don't know anything about whether or not Dumbledore can perform leglimency or not or how good he is at it if he can so it's possible that Snape can not block Dumbledore out however good he is at occlumency. Also, despite Dumbledore's great "weakness" for love he is still capable of seeing through people and seeing where evil lies, etc (Lucious Malfoy) and so he seems to be able to tell when someone is lying to him and when they are being sincere, this is partly why I reckon Snape is good and is really betraying Voldemort.
Albus Dumbledore
Aug 31 2006, 07:35 PM
I agree with you on the whole Rachel_1989, but I disagree with the finer details. We are told by Dumbledore himself that he is a "sufficient enough legilimens to know I am being lied to..." when he talks of
persuading Kreacher into telling him what treachery he had caused... this could be humbleness on Dumbledore's part which may lead one to believe that Dumbledor has such a wealth and knowledge of events and the people involved in them mostly because of an advanced level of Legilimency... so I guess Im saying I disagree with the deatails of your arguement, but not the outcome... if that even makes sense
~Albus
lilyluvr
Aug 31 2006, 08:23 PM
i still think hes bad.i just have a hunch.i could be wrong though,i dont know.voldemorts not some "crackpot old fool" either,not that i like him,i hate him,but he could just dig in to snapes mind,and even though snapes exellent at occumency,hes not as good as voldy ill bet you.
Albus Dumbledore
Aug 31 2006, 09:06 PM
hmm was "crackpot old fool" a dig at Dumbledore...Ill act like I didnt see it
That is the thing Lilyluvr, Snape is believed to be the only one to decieve the dark lord... he is being taught, whether he wants it or not, skills by the two most powerful wizards, he is well versed in all kinds of magic they each deal with, making him a powerful character. I do not think that Voldemort has broken into his mind, for I believe that Voldemort doesnt feel the need to... Snape probably blocked all incriminating evidence, fabricated
faux memories in the forefront of his mind to spoon feed Voldemort what he wants to see, thinking he has broken into Snapes mind.... what a surprise he will have
~albus
lilyluvr
Aug 31 2006, 09:42 PM
oh alright,you have a point there,(and im not saying dd is a crackpot old fool,i would never say such a thing)but now that dds dead,where do you think snape is going to go?voldy,right? so if he was beraying voldy,hes most probably on his side again.
oh,and i have a question for whoever reads this,its off the topic though,but how do you get those big avatars at the end of your post?you know,those string of five avatars or one big one or whatever?i would highly appreciate it if you would tell me.
rachel_1989
Aug 31 2006, 09:50 PM
It makes perfect sense, Albus, as usual, you word your thoughts in a way that makes sense, at least to me, but I'm a little odd...
I didn't think to check if it says or not, I wasn't sure but had a feeling he might be able to do it but that we are told that he can, I'm not great at wording my theories but I'll get better, I'm new at this...
Sorry lilyluvr, but I'm going to have to agree with Albus on this one but I do agree with you that he will probably go back to Voldemort, doesn't necassarily mean that he will be working for him though. He'll probably have to go into hiding first though since pretty much the entire wizarding world will be looking for him and being a Hogwarts professor he's going to be fairly easily recognisable.
As for the avatar I know there's a link about avatar's if you click on your own name but past that I haven't got a clue, sorry.
Albus Dumbledore
Aug 31 2006, 09:55 PM
to achieve your goal of the avatars at the bottom, go to my controls at the top of the page by the owls waiting link, in that link you will find Edit my signature...there you can add what you will!
I think Snape wouldnt betray LV and then join him, it would be his death... I think he did it for the Order, and more specifically for Harry... someone has to fulfill the role of creating a distraction, an illusion to cheat the Dark Lord of the less than life state he is in once and for all. This task is appointed to one Severus Snape, and he alone, by the great mind of Albus Dumbledore, can achieve this, for he has done what the Dark Lord could not, he is now deep within the enemy's ranks, even deeper than before, if not by status then merely in mind... Snape will show his true allegiance in the end, and I would have to say I strongly think it will be to Dumbledore.
~Albus
EDIT: Thank you Rachel_1989, I have much faith in you and your positng abilities... good luck and see you around!
rachel_1989
Aug 31 2006, 10:15 PM
I agree, Albus, Snape is allied with Dumbledore but not so sure on his murdering Dumbledore being entirely for the Order/Harry. I think it's more likely to be a combination of this and making sure Voldemort still thinks he is working for the dark side for want of a better phrase. I can't see how or why the Order would decide that Dumbledore's death was a necessary evil but I can see how it would cause Snape to be shown huge amount of respect/fear by Death Eaters and Voldemort himself.
witchmom
Aug 31 2006, 11:15 PM
Snape is very important for the whole plot, even when we don't see him or we ask ourselves "Where's Severus now?".
I think that Dumbledore had to choose between his own life and Harry's. Ensuring that Harry arrives safely to the final battle is the main purpose of the Order and Snape's double life. Dumbledore knew already that the Chosen One was Harry and he knew also the whole Prophecy text, that Voldemort still doesn't know!! This strikes a point for the Order/Harry. Snape loved Dumbledore, I'm deeply convinced of this, because he had been so kind and good with him when he repented from his actions as a Death Eater and probably didn't have any other place where to go. Snape's respect for Dumbledore is clearly visible.
But at the end, there are choices to make. Dumbledore sacrificed his life because he
knew that Harry is the only one who can kill the Dark Lord. Voldemort doesn't know it and he's convinced that he made a great step forward to his victory, eliminating Albus.
Definitely, by my opinion, Severus is loyal to Albus.
Witchmom )O(
rachel_1989
Aug 31 2006, 11:34 PM
I LOVE that theory, it makes a lot of sense and would tie up a lot of loose ends and answer a lot of questions if it was true. But would Dumbledore have told anyone else of this plan, McGonnagal for example, or Lupin?
lilyluvr
Aug 31 2006, 11:35 PM
alright,alright,your opinions are to good to turn down,im convinced.thanks for the avatar thing,rachel_1989 and albus dumbldore,i was just really confused.(as you can see,im sort of new at this) the only thing i disagree with is when rachel_1989 said snape will go into hiding,that way voldy will know so i dont think he'll do that.
Albus Dumbledore
Aug 31 2006, 11:52 PM
Im glad you think so Witchmom, we seem to be of a people who are dying out... those who believe Severus is good. I just think, with all the proof I have stated so far, that JKR as set us up to take it so lightly that Snape killed Dumbledore, that Snape is evil, so we would eat it up.... and most of us have.... we have been told to suspect snape in all evil doings, to question his allegiance, to question his morals.... but one person, and only one person stood by him, Dumbledore. I just think it is too convenient to play the blame game so soon in the plot.... for now, in my mind Severus Snape is innocent...
~Albus
P.S.- Welcome to the Great Hall Witchmom, Im sure I will see you in this topic in the Great Hall, unless I already have and seemed to forget!
Anyway, congrats and welcome
~Albus
rachel_1989
Sep 1 2006, 12:06 AM
I'm sticking with the "Snape is good" camp of people however small it gets, the only real arguments against it are that he killed Dumbledore and told Narcissa and Bellatrix that he was merely using Dumbledore's protection but that one can be easily be explained.
witchmom
Sep 1 2006, 12:10 AM
QUOTE(rachel_1989 @ Aug 31 2006, 11:34 PM) [snapback]220798[/snapback]
I LOVE that theory, it makes a lot of sense and would tie up a lot of loose ends and answer a lot of questions if it was true. But would Dumbledore have told anyone else of this plan, McGonnagal for example, or Lupin?
I don't think so. I feel that the details of Snape/Dumbledore agreement are strictly confidential. Almost everyone asks "But WHY is Albus trusting Snape?" and his closest friends and colleagues say always "If Albus trusts Severus, but they don't seem to know the reasons why.
Oh, Albus, I've just seen your welcome, and I am quickly editing my message to say Thank you very much!!!
Witchmom )O(
Albus Dumbledore
Sep 1 2006, 12:12 AM
exactly my dear, all of the evidence we see can be proven to be in fact for the good side... with a sense of tangability as well... we arent just shooting in the Dark here, we are taking a serious gamble putting our trust in the one who killed Dumbledore....as you can see I love the character Dumbledore in all ways, so you can imagine the research I had to do before coming to the conclusion that I should put my faith in his death and trust his murderer. Odd I know, but the evidence does point that way
~Albus
yes i agree that he is on dumbledores side too, i just also think there is evidence against it, at first read of the book i thought he was against dumbledore, but the more i read it the more i think that he is on dumbledore's side, I think it would be easier to fool voldemort than dumbledore, and we cant forget the reason he trusted him in the first place, dumbledore wouldnt trust blindly, i think that they had a plan, im not sure when it was put in place tho.
missmugglebethany
Sep 1 2006, 12:50 AM
I'm all for snape being good. So much of what happened that night and leading up to that night has happened. A couple of posts ago someone asked if anyone else knew if they did it would be lupin. him knowing explains some things that bother me. like his outburst in the hospital the night of the alleged death of DD. and his constant support for snape in all the books. Yes snape did make his potion but thats a really weak thought. if snape did anything to that potion DD would have known. Its not like snape could really do anything to that potion. overall lupin knows more than he's letting on. I dont completely believe this thought because i can see the negatives also.
the biggest negative is that in all reality the order is very exposed, to at least volde, i think he has some very good ideas on who is in the order. lupin in my book would be the first person i would seek out for knowledge. he seems like the type that DD would give a little more privy to. same as with McGonagall, they both are well known to be entrusted to highly sensitive info that a skilled legiminens could extract info and compermise snapes role.
so i can see the positive and the negative side to the thought and dont honestly know which one is more accurate.
lilyluvr
Sep 1 2006, 12:50 AM
yes,i totally agree with you hp6,but instead i always thought he was on voldys side,until albus dumbldore convinced me that hes not.there are still some mysteries to be solved about snape,however,and hopefully we can find it out.
Yes snape is one of the most mysterious, if not the most mysterious characters in the book, and his actions, many of them, can be taken for good or bad. I do not think dumbledore would tell lupin or mcgonagall, because they would not allow dumbledore to die, they would do everything in their power to keep him alive, and it could jepordize snapes life. I also think that he wouldnt tell harry incase voldemort saw through the link with the scar, he isnt exactly amazing at shutting off his mind.
also in your signature bethany, highlight the words and then click center.
Albus Dumbledore
Sep 1 2006, 02:11 AM
Yes I agree with you, Dumbledore would leave this to Snape and only snape.... he would go for the most convincing murder ever.... and Snape would gain a better hold on his position next to the dark lord. We know Dumbledore would not tell Harry for he fears Harry would be too open to a reading, like in his 5th year, but then, why would he allow harry to go through all of those sessions with him without occlumency, Voldemort would know in an instant that he knew of Horcruxes if he were to lower his own defenses and peer into the depths of harrys mind... So in conclusion, I do not think that Dumbledore would tell Harry, it would ruin the effect of what he died for...
~Albus
rachel_1989
Sep 1 2006, 02:41 AM
He would go for the most convincing murder possible but I still think he may have told either McGonnagal or Lupin or even both what he was planning knowing that they wouldn't tell Harry but would still know that Snape was in fact good and not on Voldemort's side after all.
Chubbles
Sep 1 2006, 03:12 AM
I love Severus Snape, he's my favorite charactor, and I think there is a lot more to him then has been given away in the first six books. I think Dumbledore's pensieve will reveal that Snape is really on the Order's side. I really think he is opposed to Voldemort, or at least I hope so. Even if he isn't on the Order's side, I don't think he is completely a Death Eater really.
witchmom
Sep 1 2006, 06:54 AM
QUOTE(hp6 @ Sep 1 2006, 12:59 AM) [snapback]220860[/snapback]
I do not think dumbledore would tell lupin or mcgonagall, because they would not allow dumbledore to die, they would do everything in their power to keep him alive, and it could jepordize snapes life.
Sadly, all is allowed in love and war...and I think that Minerva, in her wiseness, would understand very well that DD HAS to sacrifice his life in order to guarantee the world's victory over Voldemort by Harry's hand. It's not simply "OK, I'll let Voldemort kill me because so the plot thickens", it's more like "I'll let Voldemort kill me because only Harry can kill him, so if I have to choose, better me than him".
Witchmom )O(
Snuffalupagous
Sep 1 2006, 07:15 AM
Well i would like to start out saying that. I agree with albus and witchmom. Snape has been portrayed as the evil in just about every book though he has never really done anything more then make harrys life miserable though he may just be hard on harry (other than the fact that he hated james) to help him, the old tough love thing. Think about it, harry would not be half of what he is (saveing the sorcerers stone from snape for example) without his loathing for snape. So maybe snape is just not giveing harry the pitty everyone else dose and being hard on him to make him realieze the horrors he would one day have to face (fighting LV)?