The only reason I can think of for Dumbledore allowing Snape to get away with the prophecy is that he couldn't help it. Snape probably just Apparated out of the Hog's Head before Dumbledore could prevent him from leaving.

As for why Snape gave up Emmeline Vance...the pnly reason I can think of is because he is serving Voldemort.

Did you get that from the book or is that just from memory? Gah, I wish I hadn't lent my copy of HBP to my cousin, then I could check for meself...*frustrated*

Snape could be an excelent oclumens, but dumbledora is better ligilimens...
if voldemort have afraid of dumbledore is because bumbledore is (was...) better than him... In my opinion the dead of dumbledore mde part of a plan... Don't u think that dumbledore was able to know that draco was conspiracing? Of course that if he wanted he could! The murder of Dumbledore give to snape the trust that he nedds to voldemort believe really in him. (Snape made part of Order of Phoenix...) its my opnion.

my belief is snape is still on the good side, i already gave my best evidence in this thread, the whole prof trewalney prophecy thing, interpret that as youd like, id like to say that snape can be good but cant be in the order because they want to kill him right??

On Snape giving up Emmeline Vance side of things, is there any evidence other than Snape's statement that he gave Lord Voldemort information leading to her demise which would serve to indict him? In my mind, Severus could simply have been laying things on pretty thick for Bellatrix and Narcissa's benefit, trying to impress upon them that he is firmly on their side so they would entrust him with additional information on Voldemort's plans...

It may also be a case where Snape, seeing that information about Emmeline Vance's whereabouts was about to be delivered to Voldemort by someone else anyway, seized the opportunity to further consolidate his apparent allegiance to Voldemort's cause. A very interesting possibility could be that Wormtail came into the information and was about to give it to Voldemort in order to improve his position in the ranks of the Death Eaters, gloated about it to Snape (or Snape sussed it out of him somehow) and beat Wormtail to the punch by delivering the information to Voldemort himself. This would essentially redeem Snape, as the information would have passed to Voldemort anyway had he not given it to him himself. It would have been too dangerous for him to try and lie about the information or lead Voldemort down the garden path about it, as Wormtail knew the score...

I was wondering about something where Dumbledore's death is concerned as well. Throughout HBP, we see that Dumbledore is not doing well, in fact he appears to be quite ill throughout. What if, and this is pure speculation on my part, Dumbledore was actually dying throughout the book as a result of his destroying the ring? And what if what Snape was doing was not so much healing him as keeping him alive for a short while longer? Could it be that Snape's use of the Killing Curse was spurious? We were, after all, told that one has to mean it or it "won't cause so much as a nose bleed." This line of reasoning opens things up a little, as it would explain why Dumbledore wanted Snape there as quickly as possible when they got back to Hogwarts (i.e.: to confront Malfoy about his ability to do the deed and somehow redeem him and to have Snape appear to be the one who killed Dumbledore when Malfoy balked at the task.) This may serve to explain why there wasn't the usual jet of green light at the spell's casting.

In this particular instance, Snape may have been guilty of nothing more than allowing Dumbledore to die at a time of his own choosing in order to further set the stage for the confrontation which is to come.

Just thought I'd jump in and get back into it in this thread, seeing as it certainly seems to be one of the more interesting ones out there...

Cheers!

he is innocent i think.because dumblodore gived a mission to snape.
snape must to be a agent for good-side(definitely he must be).and he gived a promise and he killed !dumblodore! for his mission.
[i think he wasnt dumblodore ( http://www.veritaserum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=8489 )]

omerus

you know what thats not a bad idea, snape could very easily use voldemorts secrecy to his advantage and tell them that he did something that someone else should have the credit for but being as noone knows what people tell voldy he could just be taking credit for others works.

That's exactly what I was thinking, HP6. The Death Eaters, by the very nature of their mindset, are opportunistic and sycophantic beasts. The need to be seen as the most trusted servant and, in doing so, resort to secrecy and deceit amongst themselves, a fact that any decent spy would use to his advantage. I certainly think Snape would be adept enough to take advantage of such situations as they arose.

Ok. . .i sadly forgot about this thread but I have returned with a theory:
I was thinking and thinking and after reading HBP four times I came to the conclusion that snape is likely to be good and something form my imagination is could dumbledore be related to snape?
We have heard dumbledore and all his talk about love but we have never heard that he had a wife or daughter/son. What if snape was his son?
Just a thought
Please tell me what you think!

When Harry is talking to Hagrid, and Hagrid accidentally says that Dumbledore and Snape were arguing. Snape said that he couldnt do it, and that Dumbldore was taking everything too lightly.

I think they were arguing about their plan to "kill Dumbledore"

For further info visit www.dumbledoreisnotdead.com

Its a very good site with some very intrguing theories.

Hi i think the title the half blood prince represents basically the theme of the book --snape's loyalty to Dd. i use to think up reasons for why Dd trusted Snape so much. but now after reading what lovamom wrote, i simply think that Dd loved snape as his child and Snape loved Dd as a father. and you can't really explain love. it can actually be true that Snape's evil but Dd loved him too much to do anything horrible, but at the same time it works the other way around. Dd said love is a powerful thing and something voldmort doesn't understand. i've always wondered how can voldy not know about snape being a double agent? but if dd and Snape have a special bond that is unexplainable and doesn't need to be explained, then maybe that's why voldy don't know. snape doesn't have to prove to Dd that he's loyal. i mean i don't have to prove to my parents that i love them or trust them. it just happens because love is there.

ok i think it is quite funny
all these theories of parents and there kids, i like most of them
but i thought that tobias was snapes dad? but why would snape ever have been a de if he was the greatest wizards son, surly a son of dd would know his dad was the best, so why align yourself with vl?

Considering that dumbledore has known snape since he was 11. Knows what kind of person he is inside , and considiring the BRIEF eye contact that they made before snape killed dumbledore , we can conclude that some legimency took place during that time.

You know, I really like the line of thinking that Omerus_Banning had going. I never thought that Snape could just be keeping DD alive long enough. He certainly was ill throughout the book and he and Snape could have worked hard to keep DD alive so he could give Harry the memories and info he had to carry on. Very good theory, I like it.

I had also forgotten about Vance. I always skip the second chapter cause well, I hate hearing Snape talk so much about 'fooling the OOTP'. But, it's smart of JK. One could take it for straight face value. That he really is bad but it's rather obvious, isn't it? Or is it so obvious that she thinks no one will believe and thus, it does end up being true? I just liked seeing Snape communicate with the other side and see what lies he comes out with for them.

Finally, I went over Snape's lessons with Harry in OOTP and I think he could have revealed a lot about himself in a few lines he said. About keeping your emotions controlled. Not wearing your heart on your sleeve or else it's too easy for people to know what you really think and feel. Sounds about right, doesn't it? If Snape towers around Hogwarts always hating Harry and being evil to everyone. Never allowing a touching moment or any of that. Gives out the impression he's a cold hearted person and thus, when say Draco reports this to his father, seems like he really is on their side. Not to mention, it keeps him focused on controlling his mind at all times. He said that VD could always 'almost' tell when he's being lied to but people could contrive different memories or at least, take out the ones that would reveal him weapons or their true feelings to VD. So maybe Snape's hatred and bad mood is all an act although, let's face it, the man never will be a very friendly loving guy. But I think he puts up a wall to keep himself on constant guard. He pushes people away so he doesn't get caught up in feelings and doing something foolish to save them. Instead, he uses his brain to keep them out of trouble. Assuming, (and I really hope so) that he's on the good side. However, not even he can control his feelings. He does tend to fly off the handle from time to time and that's not mastering his feelings.

Hey there, Omerus! Welcome back, I've missed you!

Oh goodness...I have so much to say and I can't type fast enough for my little fingers.

As for the Emmeline Vance dying on Snapes Information statement, I really am torn. But no matter what way I am torn, I do not think he wouldactually kill her, or be responsible for her death. Why? *shrugs* First off, I have a far-fetched theory. Here it goes: Snape is pressed for information on known Order members. Since he can not revel the whereabouts of the Order's headquarters, Voldypants wants to tick them off one by one. (So is also my theory on the missing wand maker and ice cream man. ) ANyhoo, so Snape, knowing that this moment would come, knows he can reveil the location of certain Order members and then send a message to DD or others about the impending attack. However Snape is waylaid by someone or someting. perhaps he was late getting the message? Perhaps reinforcements took time to come? perhaps Voldypants didn't sit on it and acted ashly for whatever reasons? Whatever the reason, Snape comes off as the hero to the Death Eaters and is excused by the Order because wires got crossed somewhere. I know, it seems farfetched, but this Jo, right? That is something that could be explained in a conversation between people in about a half of page of writing.

Now, on with the next one. I agree with the theory that he was dying throughout. I have three reasons why: First off, go back to book 1. Snape said (and it's important that he was the one saying it.) that Potions can put a stopper in death. Dumbledore said Snape had helped him and it would have been worse had he not gotten to him in time. Secondly, DD acted, especialy in the first of the book, as if he knew his time was limited. (That point has been made here before, I am just pointing it out again to serve my purpose. ) Lastly, I agree that that was the reason DD and Snape argued in the woods. DD was ready, Snape didn't want him to go yet. Snape didn't want to be the "murderer". But faced his fears and did the jobhe was told to do. Kill your confidant for the greater good. Thus, his anger towards Harry for being called a "coward".

Could DD and Snae be related? Oh my...I have considered this before. Only because of the physical descriptions given in book one of Dumbledore and then of Snape. The first time I read SS, I thought to myself, "Self, she is making a big deal about the long noses and the long fngers. She wants us to pay special attention to the fact that they have silimlarities." Maybe my first instinct was right? Or was it my laer thought that it was a comparision of traights , though they were different ersonalties? I really couldn't say either way.

That is what I have to comment on for now. What do you guys think?

The part I like best about Snape still being on the Order's side, even though the Order and Harry may think otherwise given his actions, is that it may later serve as a very strong motivational impetus for Harry to go above and beyond to defeat Lord Voldemort. Once he finds out that Snape was actually working very hard to bring about the downfall of Voldemort, at great risk to himself, perhaps even going so far as to sacrifice himself so that Harry can go on (my own personal hunch, here...), I think Harry's resolve will be strengthened to the level required by the task at hand.

Of course, I may be completely off...

Omerus_banning -- no I don't think you're completely off. Not that I am an authority or the owner of the One True Way, though. I happen to have theories very similar to yours and I agree with everything you said in your previous post, it seemed almost pointless to reply to it because it is more or less what I've been saying all along.

Harry seems to be lightyears away from seeing that Snape is working to bring about the downfall of Voldemort, but he has actually made a huge step in the right direction by seeing that Malfoy isn't a bad boy, that Voldemort has had a difficult childhood, that people must not be judged by circumstance alone, etc. etc.
Harry has learnt a lot this past year. It will take some time to adjust to all this new knowledge, but he is already doing it and seeing further into people's motives than he ever has before.

You are definitely correct, BumbleBee, in saying that Harry has learned a lot in his 6th year at Hogwarts, although most of his learning was probably done outside the classroom as you so rightly point out. I find it very interesting that Snape's Potions text, which Harry uses to shine in Slughorn's class, in essence symbolizes Harry's learning not to "judge a book by its cover", as it were. Tremendously well crafted bit, as well, to have Harry swap the covers on said book to keep it for himself.

I also agree that Harry's witnessing Draco's struggle when faced with having to kill Dumbledore was something that he needed to learn, namely that sometimes people are forced to do horrible things in order to protect those they love. Somehow I cannot help but think that this will be very important in Book 7, perhaps helping Harry see that peoples' motivations aren't always black or white...

I have a harder time seeing how Harry's witnessing of Tom Riddle's hardships would serve to affect his view of things. If anything, we could posit that Harry's life was not any easier than Riddle's but that he turned out to be a "good Boy." Come to think of it, that may very well be the juxtaposition we were meant to see...

Interesting stuff to be sure!

Ooh, Melissa!! *waves* Long time no see in this thread! Aw, it's so nice to see some of the 'old timers' coming back into this debate at last!!

I liked your scenario too - that seems very plausible to me. I guess it's an extension of Omerus' thoughts really, but it seems as though all of us Snape-supporters seem to be pretty much of a mind over the Emmeline Vance murder - that it was out of Snape's hands, but he did what he could. We don't really have much evidence for it to be perfectly honest, but I'm all for making a leap of faith

I think Snape is working on Dumbledore's side, though I don't think Snape is secretly this lonelyheart who loves too much kind of thing.
I do suspect he was in love with Lily when he was younger, though and that may be half the reason he's protective of Harry (doesn't allow the DEs to torture or kill Harry when they're fleeing at the end of HBP), for the most part though, I think Snape protects him because he now knows Harry is the one the prophecy spoke of.

In fact he's known since the night at Godric's Hollow because I think Snape got there that night just too late to save Lily.

As for most recent events, Snape told Dumbledore about his Unbreakable Vow with Narcissa is my guess. Snape knows about the Horcruxes because I think Snape was R.A.B.. The reference in the note to the fact that the writer would soon be dead was because Snape thought he'd end up breaking the Vow because he didn't want to kill Dumbledore, but Dumbledore had ordered him to when they fought in the forest as witnessed by Hagrid.

Those are my guesses.

Oh no, no, no...I think you're misunderstanding me. I didn't mean to imply that Snape is in love with anyone...I'm very frustrated with the rather loose definition JKR places on 'loving relationships' at the moment anyway, particularly in HBP so that wasn't the avenue I was going down at all. (I'm assuming you were referring to the remark I made about caring too much? I apologise in advance if you weren't!! )

What I meant was that Snape is capable of compassion and consideration for other people - that just makes him more human than he appears to be, that's all. I didn't mean that he's a great tragic love hero like Heathcliff or anything like that - Heaven forbid!!

I don't really want to get into the Snape is RAB argument here for several reasons - mostly because it would be off topic here, but also because I'm utterly convinced it's Regulus anyway. That's not a slight on anyone who argues otherewise of course...it's a free country and all that...it's just that it's not a topic that particularly interests me because I think that people are making more of it than there is personally.

It's possible that Snape's remorse was felt more acutely because he maybe had a bit of a thing for Lily, but let's not forget that a year old baby was almost killed himself and had just had both his parents murdered because of something that Snape did. If he had any kind of humanity in him whatsoever, that alone would be enough to break him - he wouldn't have had to have particularly cared about them on a personal level.

I mean, the other week, there was something on the radio about a man who watched while his little girl and his wife were run over by a hit-and-run driver in London. I'm not sure what happened to hs wife, but I know that his little girl was killed. She'd been on her way from a Christmas party at the time and the car just mounted the pavement. I'm not a particularly emotional person - certainly not in public - but I had to excuse myself out of the room (I was in work) when I heard him talking about what had happened because the whole thing was just so unspeakably awful and I really, really felt for him. Obviously I don't know him, but I'm human...we feel when we hear things like that and sometimes it's hard to keep those feelings private.

My point is that Snape wouldn't have had to love Lily to feel regret at her loss. If he has any shred of humanity, that's enough. I think he does.

hp6 if you read carefully, it doesn't say that DD is Snape father, but that DD consider Snape like is son.

Was anyone else was present at Godric Hollow
No comments

I want to share some thoughts about Snape's capabilities, and his evolving attitudes.

Snape has developed more new spells than anyone else in the books, with the possible exceptions of the Weasly twins. He's developed many dark spells that he never shared with Voldemort of the Death Eaters.

If he had shared Sectum Sempra with many people it would have been added to the list of Unforgivable Curses, and Antonin Dolohov (who will be important in book 7) would have killed Hermiony with it in book 5, instead of using a similar but less effective spell.

Despite his fascination with the Dark Arts, Snape is not a fundamentally evil personality. He was driven into the Dark Lord's camp by James Potter and Sirius black. He eventually came to understand the limitations of Voldemort: that Voldemort is a less intelligent and a less powerful wizzard than Snape. Voldemort rules by sheer visciousness, but in every other way, Snape is the superior wizzard.

So, once James Potter and Sirius Black were gone, Snape's good side came to the surface, and he switched his allegance to Dumbledore. I believe it was a sincere switch, based on respect for Dumbledore and some innate sense of decency that had been long hidden. But, I'm sure that Dumbledore (and Moody) reinforced it with a series of Unbreakable Promises, so that he can serve as a reliable double agent, unable to go back to the dark side.

Hiya SiriusB1214 Welcome to the forums and to the debate!

I pretty much agree with the majority of your first post - I hadn't really thought about the Vow as being a fairly easy thing to do, but I think you make a very good point there - I'm sure Dumbledore knows all about Unbreakable Vows and would probably have taken precautions against Snape being forced into a position where he would have to make such a vow that could compromise him. Whatever side Snape is really on, I think that we would have to believe that Dumbledore is intelligent enough to have protected himself by preparing for it - if he didn't, then it doesn't really say much for Dumbledore.

I also agree with this part of your second post.

i was thinking of snape acting well with both sides to get information and one day form his own army....you know lke DDs is the order of phoenix and LVs is death eaters. we might have Snapinutes!
lol...i dont know what made me say that but anyhow he might not be on anybodies side!

First off, a comment about the poll: Looks like Snape is evil is gaining...



But getting back to the debate here, and drawing on some aspects from another thread about Lilly, James and Severus. I am beginning to think that, perhaps, Snape was pushed towards Voldemort not by James and Sirius directly, but rather by the apparent betrayal of his confidence by Lilly.

Allow me to elaborate on this a little.

In a thread about how James learned Levicorpus, a theory was put forth which saw Snape show Lilly his spell and potions discoveries, perhaps as Lilly was tutoring him or as they were both stellar Potions students who happened to work together well. Snape might have had a crush on Lilly, something which would seem to have been common enough if we believe Hagrid, Lupin, Sirius and pretty well everyone who ever spoke of Lilly Evans. If we go back to Snape's Worst Memory, specifically the part where James uses Levicorpus on Snape, would the latter not have felt intense betrayal, as it appeared to him that Lilly had told James all about his spellwork? In my mind, this fits in well to explain Snape's outburst at Lilly and his subsequent movement towards the ranks of the Death Eaters. Knowing what we know of Lilly's personality, especially in light of Lupin's description of her in POA, I doubt very much that Lilly would have shared any confidence Snape had entrusted her with, least of all with someone whom she knew despised Snape as much as James did. James, or perhaps Sirius, could have witnessed Lilly demonstrating the spell to friends in the Gryffindor Common Room, for instance. This would also go towards explaining Lilly's anger at James in Snape's Worst Memory, as she would know that Snape thought she had betrayed his confidence, costing her a friend.

If we accept the theory outlined above, motivations become a little more clear; Snape was pushed towards the Death Eaters' camp after this fallout wiht Lilly, as he felt betrayed by the one person he loved, or at the very least considered a friend. I think Severus would have quickly been disillusioned by Voldemort's motives. As Louise has pointed out, he made the decision with the heart and mind of a young man betrayed, at a very difficult time in his life and at a time when he felt great despair. Once he matured and saw that Voldemort was only interested in power for himself and that his underlings were all expendable, he may very well have begun to have doubts as to his place within the ranks of the Death Eaters. Certainly, once the Dark Lord ordered Lilly, James and their toddler son's death, as Louise once again pointed, whatever humanity was left in him may simply have burst forth, prompting him to try and do what he could to fight Voldemort. Love is, after all, one of the strongest emotions, and definitely one of the central themes of the stories so far, whether fillial, romantic, fraternal, reciprocated or unrequited...

The above does fit in well with my prior thoughts who Snape is betraying. Clearly, Dumbledore knew all of Snape's motivations, which is why he trusted him so completely: because he knew the Snape's change of heart was based on love.

Was that long winded enough?

For you lil story with Lily. I agree with you for all the point. Plus the anagram with Lily Evans Potter = I try t'love Snape.

But to complete what Omerus said, JK said in the 3rd movie behind the scene footage that Cuaron put a hint in the movie. We all know that this hint is when Lupin says to Harry

Your mother saw the good in a person, still if they didn't see it in themselves. (Or something like that).

So, lily would have help Snape, in his most darkest moment. So it's why that Snape would love Lily, maybe not as a girlfriend, but has a friend. For the people who says, he says she's a MudBlood, I can answer, because he knew nobody likes him, he didn't want to put Lily in a bad situation by telling everybody she consider him as a friend. Nobody knew, except the director, the most powerful wizard, Albus Percival Lumbric Dumbledore (it's all I know).

Snape would have went at Voldemort to try to get more friend, and he got. But he stayed...
He told the prophecie to Voldemort, and when he realise that it was concerning the Potter, Snape really became good, because he had something other didn't had, a heart, loving someone.
His remorse where true, because Lily was the only person that consider him as a friend, his only childhood friend.

Dumbledore knew Snape loved Lily, so that's why he knew he was right.

And as Snape said, there's a difference between reading in though, and Legilimencie. Feelings aren't in our head, they are in our heart............

I found this website that can potentially answer a lot of questions, or spark new ones. Keep in mind though that it is based on theories just like the rest of us have...but its well done and makes a lot of sense, for the most part.

http://www.davekopel.com/Misc/Mags/Severus...tter-book-7.htm

There is other stuff for other threads in there, so it could show more than which side Snape is playing on. Hope it helps...

Hey guys

Sorry I disappeared there for a while...real life stuff

Anyway...Omerus - yes, you pretty much summed up there what I've been thinking about Snape and Lily's relationship. I still have a little trouble believing that it was love per se, because I honestly don't think it's possible for someone so young to truly love someone else who they hardly know, when truth is told... He may have been infatuated with her, certainly, had fantasies about her feeling the same way, but I don't think it's likely to ever have been reciprocated. However, I do think that those feelings may have been enough to push Snape over the edge towards Voldemort but I don't think they would have kept him there for all that time. I think the only feelings that have been motivating Snape since then are regret, anger and hatred towards James and everyone connected with him for making Snape feel bad about himself, do you know what I mean? That would fit with his Slytherin tendancies. He knows he did wrong, but I don't think he could quite bring himself to blame himself - it's easier for him to blame someone else for his mistakes and he finds it easier to hate James and Sirius and the echoes of them he sees in Harry than it is for him to hate himself.

crsdba - very interesting article. It repeats a lot of what has been discussed here on and off, but it was this part that I particularly liked -

This isn't really a double post because I'm posting on behalf of 'sovereign' who posted this in a thread which has now been closed. It's a very good point though. What do you think?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted by sovereign, Feb 4th 2006

I was re-reading the Prisoner of Azkaban to get rid of the shock of book six trying to convince myself that Snape had done that on [I] Dumbledores orders when I stumbled on to something on page 204 I think, when Harry was in the pub hiding from his teachers.
Something Cornelius Fudge said made me convinced that Snape was a with the Order of the Phoenix. He clearly said ''not many people are aware the Potters knew You-Know-who was after them. Dumbledore, who of course working tirelessly against You-Know-Who, had a number of useful spies. One of them tipped him off and he alerted James and Lily at once...''
I am hoping against hope that "one of Dumbledores useful spies" was Snape. If not maybe Regulus Black, but I doubt it.
Dumbledore was in closer contact with Snape than Regulus and if Black had told him and Snape had known and done nothing, I really don't think Dumbledore would have trusted him so completly, and JK Rowling did say that they left out something very important in Movie 3

OK, while rereading HBP(only third time) I found at the chapter called Horcurxes, I believe, taht when Dumbledore tells Harry about them and about Lucius' tremendous mistake when he gave Ginny the diary, he has a very good knowledge of how this enraged Voldemort, and of Lucius not knowing that he really had a Horcrux in his hands. Someone must have told him, and I'm sure he is not friendly with any other DE apart from Snape, so it must have been him who told him all this.

However, and sorry if this is a bit off-topic, he also says Lucius didn't know it was a Horcrux, but that has made me think if he does now that he's messed up. Could Voldemort have told some of his DEs after that huge mistake??

I really like the tidbit that Sovereign brought up, and my thanks to you Louise for bringing it to us!

Interesting indeed! It's amazing to see that the Minister for Magic knew of these spies, albeit perhaps not of their identity.

There's also something that Louise brought up regarding Snape and Lilly, specifically that Snape was infatuated with Lilly. I wholeheartedly agree that Snape would seem to have been quite infatuated with Lilly, for obvious reasons (as we are told by Lupin, et al. that Lilly was "one of the kindest persons"), but Lilly probably did not feel the same way about Snape, viewing him as a friend (ouch!), or simply feeling rather badly for him that he was such an outcast (double ouch!!). Either of which, compunded by the apparent betrayal of Severus' confidence in Lilly (viz. his sharing/demonstrating of his spells to/with her) would definitely have pushed him rather forcefully towards the ranks of the Death Eaters.

I'm not sure that I can state with 100% certainty that all teens are unable to feel love that strong, as I am sure that it does feel like love of that kind at the time (as I recall from my own experiences as a teenager all those years ago...). In the grand scheme of things, I see the point you are making regarding infatuation VS love, but Snape may very well have related to his feelings for Lilly as being clearly of the "love" kind, perception being what it is...

Just a few thoughts...

By the way, I am seriously enjoying this!

Ok, this is my first attempt at joining one of these threads, so I hope I do it right.

First of all, Omerus, I think we may be sharing a brain because every time I've thought of something to say in this thread, you've beaten me to it!

And as for all of the theories about Snape, I am really grumbling, because I really want to hate Snape and think he's a good-for-nothing so n so. And since the death scene, I've been imaging all sorts of horrible ways for Snape to die, quite painfully.

Snape and Lily... ok, we had it hammered at us, through six books in one way or another, that LOVE is a central theme to this book. I think, like has been said, that no matter what form of love it is, it has great powers. Snape loved Lily. She was the one to stop James from humiliating Snape any further in Snape's worst memory. And I think that that one thing really meant something to Snape. He'd been an outcast, abused to varying degrees by almost everyone, and Lily was his savior. We've all had it happen, someone does something kind for us, maybe in a completely random way, and we never forget that kindness.

Snape had alot of anger about everything that had happened to him. So, he joined the DE. It probably made him feel powerful. It made him feel like he's amounted to something. And yes, it probably entered his mind that he would make everyone that was mean to him pay. But then he messed up and told Voldy about the bit of the prophecy. I bet he didn't realize at that time, that Voldy would target James and Lily. When he realized, he swapped sides, went to DD and tried to save the one woman that he ever loved.

I like what's been said about the moment of eye contact between DD and Snape just before Snape did the AK. We've only seen the AK done twice. The spider just curled up and died, and Cedric fell over dead. There was no "blasting them to kingdom come". We've not seen (or heard of) anyone dying in such a profound way as DD. I don't think DD is really dead. I think there was likely a non-verbal spell at the same time. Even if any of the DEs could sense that kind of thing, they would have been too excited by the idea of DD dying, that they may not have cared or realized how differently it all happened in this case.

I think DD knew that Harry would have to go it alone, face Voldy alone to really fulfill the prophecy. So, Harry has to think he's alone. Can't really count Hermione and Ron, as they are of age, but still unpracticed as wizards.

Am on a roll, so sorry if this has passed the point of being a tedious read...

Emaline Vance... I don't know what I think about her murder yet.

altought I think Dumbledor can't make this mistake, i think Snape is near Voldemort, but we can't know, JKR loves making us suprieses

>>>Ok, lets imagine that a second spell was used at the ssame time. Leat's imagine Snape says "Avada Kedavra!" and says in hs mind "Presto Liftio Throwio!" (a spell of my own invention), then what? The Avada Kedavra spell still killed him ("the jet of green light hit him squarely in the chest") and even, if by some strange other way it didn't that you can prove to me, falling 100 feet to the ground probably did the trick too.<<<<

Sorry, Presto Liftio Throwio made me laugh...

My idea comes from something someone else said earlier in this thread, Mad Eye(I think) told the class that they could all point their wands at him, do the AK, and it wouldn't even give him a nose bleed. IF Snape isn't a real creep and evil to the core, then if he didn't mean it, it wouldn't have killed DD. Second, DD told Malfoy on the tower, before the DE showed up, that he could make sure Draco and his family were better hidden than he could imagine. Green light? They are pretty powerful wzards. I wouldn't think making a wand shoot green light would be all that hard to accomplish. And the fall? Brooms fly, why can't DD?

Bellatrix also told Harry in the MoM that he wasn't really prepared to face what would happen if Harry used an Unforgivable. So he couldn't. He still couldn't when he was chasing Snape and Draco across the grounds.

I know its like 100% a flight of fancy to think DD is still alive out there somewhere. But then again, these books have taken some pretty odd turns on occasion.

I'm just saying that it seems DD did know what needed to happen. And I think his death(whether real or an act) is the only way Harry will ever find the strength to deal with the inevitable when it comes to facing Voldemort. Then again, I'm not sure DD would actually not get in the way when Voldy and Harry finally face off. DD thinks of Harry (much like it was with Snape) as a son. And he wants to protect him. He did so for the first 5 books.

J

stonesorcerer -- I think it's unlikely that Death Eaters know what it is exactly that Voldemort has done "going further than anyone has gone before to gain immortality". While Horcruxes can't be a complete secret (after all, Slughorn and Dumbledore know about the existence of the Horcrux spell) Voldemort would certainly have kept his early experiments very secret, and even if Death Eaters had been present during a Horcrux killing Voldemort would have kept the forging of the Horcrux itself secret, and the subsequent location of the Horcruxes was secret too. Lucius didn't know that the diary was a Horcrux.

Dumbledore and Harry know about Voldemort's Horcruxes by tracing Voldemort's steps and by circumstantial evidence. Death Eaters may have seen something, but would they have understood it? They were too busy jostling for status and power. Only disloyal Death Eaters like Snape or Regulus would have had the will to delve into Voldemort's secrets deep enough to unearth this dangerous knowledge.

>>>I agree with you on that one. And I could sit here arguing about whether or not Dumbledore's dead, but this isn't really the place. Might I recommend the "Is Dumbledore Really Dead?" topic?<<<

You're right. I'm sorry. This whole DD dead thing, doesn't go here. I just got a little wound up about it. As I am prone to do when it comes to HP.

I don't think any of the DE knew about the horcruxes. Otherwise, I'm not sure Lucius would have given Ginny the diary so flippantly. Plus, it would seem to me that the DE are really very much an "every man for himself" type. I'd almost think that if any of them, including some we don't really know yet, knew about the horcruxes, what would have stopped one or more of them from destroying them and taking the power for themselves? Seems like Lucius could be the type. He thinks himself above everyone else, why not Voldy too?

And going with the idea that Voldy thinks Snape is on his side, if Snape really is betraying Voldy, and he knew about the horcruxes, why wouldn't he have helped find and destroy the rest of them?

Personally, I think Snape is betraying everyone. Including himself. Because if DD is really dead, then Snape split his soul in two when he killed him.

preety much everything comes down to dd and trust in him...

whether snape is good or bad?- dd's thoughts on snape
whether de's know bout horcruxes?- dd sayd they dont
whether harry can even defeat vl?- dd has faith

I BELIEVE DUMBLEDORE

Why Dumbledore trusts Snape? OOOOOO, that's because of FAWKES!!!! Remember, Fawkes only came to the one who was really loyal to Dumbledore!!! Re-read book 2!

ok, hints of Snape betrayal are everywhere, even in book of magical creatures (By JK).

In the page of the phoenix, it says that he can teleport himself everywhere he wants. We kow from OotP, that he can take an AK for Dumbledore, so why did he did not took hit in his mouth?

Other thing, Snape look very much angry when Harry tells him he's a coward. He had courage to kill Dumbledore, Dumbledore himselfs told it to Harry.

(Google traduction, I have the french version)

Courage can take many forms. One needs much bravery to face its enemies but it is necessary even more to face his friends.

I let you talk about it...
What do u all think?

it seems to me that DD really really trusted snape, and i beleive that if DD trusted him he had to be ok. Now here is something to know about DD, he would rather himself be hurt or killed then any other person if he can help it. Now also if DD wouldnt have done what he did harry as well would be dead or captured. Now see i beleive that DD is a phoinx animagus it just makes sense to everything and that he told Snape and him and snape had devised this plan so everyone benefits. With DD dead(suposedly) malfoy is (kinda)off the hook, harry is alive, and snape is welocomed back into the great graces of LV. so therefore LV lowers his guard thinking DD is gone and this gives harry a way better shot at him and also snape is around now to get all the inside info.

i think hes good

my only reason is because of the trewalney mumblings and also because dd trusted him and i trust dd. he hasnt steered us wrong before this

I made a wonderful discovery when I was re-reading HBP (for the fifth time)

My theory explain in a way the feelings of Snape by what he had to do (Kill DD), DD had plan his death and how did Snape killed DD. I found it when I was reading only one sentence, but before, I will show you what Hagrid told Harry in the same chapter.
(My own translation, as many know now, I’m French, so I don’t have the English version, but I think I’ll start to read them in original version, well American. Sorry, I’ll go back to my theory).

So, was only heard Snape dais to Dumbledore he had think everything would get ok but him – Snape – maybe did not want to do it no more… (Bad translation, but the essential is there for my theory)

If he didn’t do it, he didn’t bring DD satisfaction. DD is NOBLE.

Same chapter but later, when Harry asks Kreattur and Dobby to follow and spy Malfoy. Dobby says:

And if Dobby doesn’t give satisfaction, Dobby will THROW HIMSELF FROM THE HIGHEST TOWER OF THE CASTLE.
When DD is on THE HIGHEST TOWER OF THE CASTLE, we have some informations, very interesting ones.
DD went slightly against the boarder of the tower
(5 others thing like this but it always the same, and too lazy to translate)

But between that, in the chapter, Malfoy says:
We made the Dark Mark appear cause we knew you would directly go to the castle.
more or less (or maybe not really, don’t know) says DD

That says he didn’t went to the castle to see who was dead, but to be kill.

The best is coming…

For a fraction of second, he seems to be hanging in the air (He’d been it by a green spells)(AK doesn’t throw u everywere, but a spell was very popular in Snape’s time, Levicorpus) So for the fraction of second, here are Snape’s action. He throws the Levicorpus, DD is hanging in the air, he make him be off the tower, and throws the spell to make the effect disappear.

Don’t you think Snape and Kreattur lived the same thing in the book.
Kreattur had to spy Malfoy, still if he prefer him than Harry, he had to do it.
Snape had to kill Dumbledore, still if he prefer him than Voldemort, but he had to do it, or die.

What do u guys all think?


In answer to hp6, when I read the book, I was surprise to see DD go closer to the edge of the roof. And when I read Dobby saying that he'll throw himself off the highest tower, I looked to do a theory, and I all found that at the same time. I post it in a french forum, and after, I translate.

wow i like the way you connected snape and kreacher it makes alot of sense! i dont know about the minute details but overal i sorta agree

I chose that he is loyal to Dumbledore. In my opinion, I think that he did go to Voldemorts side, but later went to Dumbledore's side. I believe this based on the "proof" (that Dumbledore keeps on mentioning and never tells us what it is, and since he's dead we'll probably never know!). I think that Dumbledore is smart enough to prove that Snape was not betraying him. I think he killed Dumbledore because of certain reasons, perhaps being one that Dumbledore himself told him to kill him. I think that Snape is really loyal to Dumbledore, and is acting as a spy to look after Voldemort. I think he was hired by Dumbledore to spy on Voldemort, and make Voldemort think that Snape is being hired by Voldemort to spy on Dumbledore. There are many reasons for my statement. One being that Dumbledore is one who can read a person by just looking at them. I don't think Snape could fool him. If Voldemort couldn't, then how could Snape? Another reason is that I just don't think that JK Rowling could make Snape evil so all of a sudden. He was shown on the negative side way too fast. It's just a topic that cannot be absorbed so quickly. There has got to be a reason as to why Snape killed Dumbledore, and it can't be only because of Voldemort's orders. I read somewhere someone made a point that in a part of the book (can't remember the page number), Harry is going to Dumbledore's office for his lessons from Dumbledore, and he is about to open the door when Snape is saying "I can't do it, I can't do it"...could it be that Dumbledore was telling him to kill him? Many people question "Why would Dumbledore want someone to kill him?" My answer is that so Harry has no support from someone, so that he can kill Voldemort himself without the help of anyone, because it was only Dumbledore that Harry trusted. And anyway, Dumbledore had left quite a strong foundation for him, that perhaps his presence was not needed anymore, and without Dumbledore perhaps Harry could do a better job, with the anger of his parents dead, Sirius dead, and Dumbledore dead, maybe there would be more ambition in him. That's all I've got to say. Sorry for the long post! By the way, I'm new.