Full Version: Who Is Snape Really Betraying?
Hi. New here. My two cents. DD had it set up with Severus to kill him all along. Why? Because the person who took out the only person Voldy was afraid of would then be in a position of such trust so as to help Harry the most when Harry needs it. DD was pleading with Severus to kill him, and nothing else. DD wouldn't have told anyone about it either. Why? Too much of a risk of Voldy finding out somehow.
I'm agreeing with you 95% of the way there Anglar but I still think Dumbledore would have told someone how could Voldemort find out if eye contact is needed to perform Leglimency except with Harry and Harry didn't know. I also think I may have figured out why Dumbledore flew backwards when the spell hit him, Moody said that the whole class could hit him and he'd get no more than a nosebleed so by that we can assume that if the spell doesn't kill you because it isn't meant to then it causes you a level of damage in proportion to the level of meaning put behind the spell. Severus wanted to mean the spell but still couldn't quite bring himself to kill Dumbledore so the spell itself did not kill him but merely caused him to fly into a wall, only because it was on the tower there was no wall to fly into and so he fell to his death.
I was also wondering what Voldemort is going to do to Malfoy, after all he failed in his main task of killing Dumbledore, someone else had to do it for him
Well, thats my thoughts for now...
Penny for your own?
Rach xxx
I was also wondering what Voldemort is going to do to Malfoy, after all he failed in his main task of killing Dumbledore, someone else had to do it for him
Well, thats my thoughts for now...
Penny for your own?
Rach xxx
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but then, why would he allow harry to go through all of those sessions with him without occlumency, Voldemort would know in an instant that he knew of Horcruxes if he were to lower his own defenses and peer into the depths of harrys mind...
well albus see the difference, as im sure you know, between the horcruxes and the death plan is, one harry needs to know (horcruxes) because he is the only one who can defeat voldemort so you have no choice but to risk it, the death can happen without harrys knowledge, and without his knowledge it is kept much safer.Here's a question:
We know that Voldemort's idea is DONT TRUST ANYONE, but do you think that with snape killing dumbledore he may start to actually trust snape?
I think he will begin to respect Snape and his ability as both a wizard and a spy a little more because of Dumbledore's death and Snapes perceived loyalty to Voldemort, as to whether or not he begins to trust Snape I'm not so sure, it's possible and could well prove to be his downfall in the end (or at least a contributing factor towards it).
yes i think if snape is betraying voldemort that snape will be the ultimate reason that harry is able to defeat him, i do not know exactly what will happen but i think that snape will have an even bigger role in book seven, but if he did truly betray dumbledore then obviously he was the ultimate downfall of dumbledore, but i really hope that isnt the case.
I dont know about the ultimate downfall of LV, because I always reserved that role for Wormtail and his Debt. Though I do believe that Snape will be quite a key character in the end and he will be one of the major deciding factors... I really want Snape to let go of his harshness toward Harry and fight alongside him, it would be great... it would be nearly as great if Dumbledore was fighting alongside him....
~Albus
~Albus
I definately think that Snape is going to prove to be key to the whole story somehow, either as the man who brought down Dumbledore and so brought down Harry Potter (which I personally don't believe) or as the only man capable of lying to Voldemort and so was able to weaken him from within and give Harry the chance to bring him down. Definately a major character and in my opinion a good one. I'm agreeing with you, Albus, on Wormtail's debt also having a major role in Voldemort's downfall but isn't it possible that the two events will coincide with each other and cause a sort of chain reaction, Wormtail repaying his debt and Snape revealing who he is truly loyal to?
oh could you imagine in the end, when Voldemort thinks he is so clever, Snape reveals his true loyalties to the commoner of muggles and mudbloods and wormtail stands up to LV to repay Harry's Debt... it will be a dark day for Tom Riddle
~Albus
~Albus
Yeah, or Voldemort is just about to kill Harry and Wormtail stands in the way of him and/or Snape hits him with a spell. Whatever happens I think it will end up being a dark day for Tom Riddle...
well yes wormtail owes harry the debt, but maybe voldemort will attempt to kill harry but wormtail will prevent him, and in that case die, and then snape will switch sides and hold off the other deatheaters (his quite powerful) and while he is fighting the deatheaters harry will be able to defeat voldemort... only one person knows though.
at first we hate him because we think he tried to kill harry in Quidditch, then you feel sorry for him when you find out about him getting bullied and now we hate him because he has killed Dumbledore. maybe Dumbledore ordered snape to kill him. . .? i think in the end snape is extremly important and we don't really no him yet or do we? 
[font=Comic Sans Ms][size=4] He is defenatly betraying the good side.
if he didnt betrayed dumbledore he wouldnt kil him
if he didnt betrayed dumbledore he wouldnt kil him
hey hermione-draco,
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Ok, and maybe he would have betrayed dumbledore by not killing him, because if dumbledore ordered snape to kill him, then if snape did not kill dumbledore snape would have betrayed dumbledore, maybe snape had to do it.
to set your fonts, highlight the words and then choose the font.
Ok, and maybe he would have betrayed dumbledore by not killing him, because if dumbledore ordered snape to kill him, then if snape did not kill dumbledore snape would have betrayed dumbledore, maybe snape had to do it.
Yes i would have to agree, merely killing someone is not certain proof of a betrayal. If Snape had to make that unbreakable vow to keep his cover, Dumbledore would have went along with it, and most likely, would have suggested he actually killed him, rather than find a loophole and face death... Dumbledore would have seen the possibilities of his death by snape...
~Albus
~Albus
I think Snape is a very confused person with lots of internal conflicts.
But my bets go on everyone and nobody in particular, but mainly Lily.
But my bets go on everyone and nobody in particular, but mainly Lily.
i know one question we are all asking ourselves is however,why did snape kill dd if he was loyal to him.well...i guess that was for malfoys sake but he should know dd could save his family,snape didnt have to kill him in the proses.also,jk said dd was truly dead so there could be no way he said one thing and thought another.
Well, if Snape had made the Unbreakable Vow Dumbledore and Snape would have been left in a "it's him or me" situation as you die if you break an Unbreakable Vow and Dumbledore being Dumbledore would have told Snape to kill him and stay alive. What I want to know is whether or not it was possible/likely that Dumbledore made Snape make another Unbreakable Vow saying that he would kill him?
hmmmmmmmmm... interesting question rachel....but why would dd make an unbreakable vow like that?and why would snape agree to it if he was loyal to dd?
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and why would snape agree to it if he was loyal to dd?
you can kill someone, and still be loyal to them, as long as it was on their orders... Dumbledore made Harry feed him that potion... it caused Dumbledore extreme pain and agony, but harry was still loyal to him by doing what he was told... The only way Snape could be good is if Dumbledore planned his death... otherwise Snape would hacve a hard time convincing people that Dumbledore had to die, that he didnt know about it, but Snape did it for the good side...it was all planned in my opinion
~Albus
yes,but then why would dd say he could save malfoy and his family if malfoy came over to the good side,if he knew he was going to die?
there is endless Possibilities to what he could have done... maybe the Unbreakable Vow was worded so Snape would only have to kill Dumbledore if Malfoy couldnt... it never says he has to do it if Malfoy wouldnt kill Dumbledore... so Dumbledore, thinking of trying to save a childs innocence, tries to persuade Malfoy to come over to the good side on his own accord, thus breaking the Vow, or atleast bypassing it for the moment... then maybe he wouldnt need to have died, because the vow was bypassed, or if he wanted to die, to gain Severus a deeper position with Voldemort, then he could have staged it at another time...
~Albus
~Albus
That's a seriousy complicated theory, Albus, but I can see where you're coming from. Snape did only say he would kill Dumbledore if Malfoy couldn't so does that mean that Malfoy and Dumbledore would have to be dueling in order for Snape to have to uphold the vow?
Yes in my theory, the vow would only need to be fulfilled if Malfoy had failed completely, or hadnt failed yet, but was surely gonna fail, ie; Dumbledore disarms him, and has him at wand-point. But... if malfoy chooses not to do the mission, then the vow is bypassed, and he could arrange for a scene that Dumbledore killed him, and then he could be gaurded... and Snape wouldnt have had to kill Dumbledore because Malfoy would have given up on the mission..
~Albus
~Albus
so then is it possible that snape could die before harry would be able to get a chance at him? There could be two reasons right? 1)he didn't follow the unbreakable vow fully and 2)is it possible that because snape didn't really give malfoy a chance that LV had a crack at him?
QUOTE(VeneficusFerox @ Aug 28 2006, 11:49 PM) [snapback]219463[/snapback]
I believe Snape is really betraying Voldemort.
I am sure we will find out exactly why Dumbledore trusts Snape so much in the 7th book. There are many theories out there, but I simply chose to stick by Dumbledore as he has never really let us down through out the series. And seeing as how he never wavered in his conviction that Snape was good, even when the odds are against Snape, I chose to believe him above all theories still. I think he petrified Harry because he knew he would do something rash when he saw what Snape was about to do. I believe he knew about the unbreakable vow and most likely told Snape to perform it because he would never allow an innocent child [Draco], however misguided he was, to commit murder. Especially when through out the 6th book we see that Draco really is having second thoughts. He has always placed much importance on his students no matter who they are.
I believe that even though Snape said the words “Avada Kedavra”, as we all know, you really have to mean them… its not just a matter of saying them. Also, I think, and please correct me if I’m wrong, that it is the 1st time we read the Avada curse blasting someone in the air. I think he just spoke the words, but meant another spell in his mind… I think it is plausible coming from Snape as he emphasizes on Harry the fact that he better keep his mouth and mind shut when casting a spell as they are duelling when Harry is trying to stop him from escaping. I think this also ties into my theory because I think Snape wants to emphasize that point since he knows if Harry can’t shut his mind, then he has no chance of beating Lord Voldemort. Lastly, Snape gets very offended when he is called a coward by Harry, and I think it is because he just fooled everyone into thinking that he really killed Dumbledore… He just became the 2nd most wanted wizard… nowhere is safe for him. I believe at the last moment he will turn on Voldemort, but most likely will die in the process… a la Darth Vader in the return of the Jedi…
maybe?Hello all,
above is my original theory for why I thin k Snape is one of the good guys, but to elaborate some more... I think more proof presents itself in the 3rd book when Snape goes all mad because he doesnt want to hear any sort of proof Sirius is innocent. I mean, until then everyone thought he [Sirius] was the spy and no one knew Peter was scabbers. Snape doesn't wana listen to reason... he's beside himself... u can tell right away that he is very emotional and can only think of the hate he feels for both Lupin and Black... unless hes a really good actor and faked everything, but I think hes clearly not in control of his feelings. I think this proves that if Snape really was in league with Lord V, he would have Killed Peter, as Lupin suggested, because the death eaters werent too happy with him, and it would have been a perfect time to kill all of them and make it seem as if Sirius had done it. He could have said he was too late and only managed to kill Black, but not before Black killed them all. Especially because he [Snape] had the invisibility cloak, and if hes so good at occlumency, no one would have been the wiser
Just my 2 cents as usual
You just gave me a thought, whether Snape is good or not he has worked/spied on the ineer-most circle of power of Voldemort's side and has been since before the Potters' death, right? If that's the case then he should have known that it was Pettigrew and not Sirius who told Voldemort where Lily and James were and so he would have been in a position to tell people this so I can't work out why he didn't at least tell Dumbledore even allowing for how much he hated Sirius and James.
i think that sanpe is loyal to dumbledore. but there are some things in the book that were unclear. for example in book four when harry says voldemort's back dumbledore asks snape if he's ready. ready for what exactly. and what did dumbledore mean when he was begging to snape in book 6? was he begging for death or begging for him to spare his life?
I think that in book 4 Dumbledore was asking Snape if he was ready to go back to Voldemort and spy on him once more and in book 6 I think he was pleading with Snape to kill him.
QUOTE(rachel_1989 @ Sep 1 2006, 10:30 PM) [snapback]221393[/snapback]
You just gave me a thought, whether Snape is good or not he has worked/spied on the ineer-most circle of power of Voldemort's side and has been since before the Potters' death, right? If that's the case then he should have known that it was Pettigrew and not Sirius who told Voldemort where Lily and James were and so he would have been in a position to tell people this so I can't work out why he didn't at least tell Dumbledore even allowing for how much he hated Sirius and James.
Actually, I was thinking about this all day today from another theory I heard that suggests that Snape might have been present at Godric's Hollow. So it got me thinking that if he was present, but as we assume that he is on the good side, perhaps Dumbledore trusted Snape without a shadow of a doubt because he did not crack then? I'm totally speculating, butmeybe he was the one to break the news to Dumbledore... The theory suggests that when we hear “stand aside girl” at Godric’s Hollow it is not Lord V, but Snape talking. Perhaps this suggests that Snape was imploring Lily because he was not evil at all, but a spy. Having said this, Lily would have not known it was Snape, as death eaters wear masks. Not that it mattered since she died anyway... Lord V prob had no patience, so he kills her and Snape is unnable to do anything as the house was leveled... maybe Snape was in mortal danger because of it... which would strengthen the theory of him being on the good side and Dumbledore really trusting him
just food for thought
but why would dd plea with snape to kill him when he was even trying to beg malfoy to join the good side? so in answer to demonsrulealot13 i seriously think that dd was begging to spare his life.
QUOTE(rachel_1989 @ Sep 1 2006, 10:30 PM) [snapback]221393[/snapback]
You just gave me a thought, whether Snape is good or not he has worked/spied on the ineer-most circle of power of Voldemort's side and has been since before the Potters' death, right? If that's the case then he should have known that it was Pettigrew and not Sirius who told Voldemort where Lily and James were and so he would have been in a position to tell people this so I can't work out why he didn't at least tell Dumbledore even allowing for how much he hated Sirius and James.
Sorry,
I totally missed touching up on Pettigrew in my previous post... well... maybe this was Snapes initiation into the deatheater brotherhood… a way for Snape to prove himself… maybe he didn’t know all the members… only some like Lucius… I know I might be stretching it, but if he was sort of a newby at the time, both as a death eater and as a spy, then he had to witness the death of the potters as his initiation… If the theories of him having feelings for Lily are true… That would be quite a blow to anyone.
this is my explanation to your question hpwalltheway, i answer this exact same question a page back, and I hope it suffices for you. As for Snapes knowledge of Pettigrew as the traitor... I believe this would have been of utmost secrecy to LV, and not many would know
~Albus
~Albus
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there is endless Possibilities to what he could have done... maybe the Unbreakable Vow was worded so Snape would only have to kill Dumbledore if Malfoy couldnt... it never says he has to do it if Malfoy wouldnt kill Dumbledore... so Dumbledore, thinking of trying to save a childs innocence, tries to persuade Malfoy to come over to the good side on his own accord, thus breaking the Vow, or atleast bypassing it for the moment... then maybe he wouldnt need to have died, because the vow was bypassed, or if he wanted to die, to gain Severus a deeper position with Voldemort, then he could have staged it at another time...
~Albus
~Albus
I think hes loyal to himself. I mean, all his actions seemed to benifit him in some way. heping the order= gaining dumbledores trust. now this is only a hunch, but i believe that snape weakened harrys mind, so voldemort could penatrate deeper into it.that boosted his popularity with voldemort. His actions seem to be suiting him, therefore i believe he is loyal to himself
~itbrit~
~itbrit~
yes, but isnt everything we all do, some how for personal gain... doing something to gain someones trust cannot be considered self-interest, in a greedy way that it... if they genuinely give that person loyalty, than trust is deserved, even to the most unselfish among us... I do not think Snape is playing both sides for Personal gain... if he was... what would it be... power from both side? i dont think so, it puts him in a tight spot in the end, where he may get killed for his (in theory) ambiguous actions... so no I do not think he is doing this out of self-interest
~Albus
~Albus
I thing snape is betraying voldemort becaus eeverything with Dumbledore could have been planned and that there are unlimited [possibilites to everything small or large
Ok, I'm starting to be less patient with those who say ''Snape is betraying DD cuz he kill him''.
Get back in the context. He came on the top of the tower, with 4 DE and Malfoy there. What could he do? Only go to Dumbledore and saying ''Are you OK, do you need help''. If he does so, Malfoy would die, he would die, and Dumbledore would had die.
Happy to made that clear (I wish I did...)
We should create a group named S.N.A.P.E ' D (S.N Aware of the Prearranged Erradication of Dumbledore)(Didn't find anything for S and N)(Society of Non-magical is kind of weird and is not really original, I must admit it)
I bring back the less interesting proof, and, probably brought in the previous message (3 pages in one day, that's a lot, when you think that 4-5 messages we're normal in the last year)(Probably the end of vacation)
Dumbledore completely trust Severus Snape.
Dumbledore says to Harry the reason why Snape switch side, but, he never tells that's the reason why he trust him so completely. Well, from what I understood.
edit:oh, and, please, read the previous message before posting something...
Get back in the context. He came on the top of the tower, with 4 DE and Malfoy there. What could he do? Only go to Dumbledore and saying ''Are you OK, do you need help''. If he does so, Malfoy would die, he would die, and Dumbledore would had die.
Happy to made that clear (I wish I did...)
We should create a group named S.N.A.P.E ' D (S.N Aware of the Prearranged Erradication of Dumbledore)(Didn't find anything for S and N)(Society of Non-magical is kind of weird and is not really original, I must admit it)
I bring back the less interesting proof, and, probably brought in the previous message (3 pages in one day, that's a lot, when you think that 4-5 messages we're normal in the last year)(Probably the end of vacation)
Dumbledore completely trust Severus Snape.
Dumbledore says to Harry the reason why Snape switch side, but, he never tells that's the reason why he trust him so completely. Well, from what I understood.
edit:oh, and, please, read the previous message before posting something...
I think that Snape is loyal to Voldemort. I mean if he was loyal Dumbledore he wouldn't have killed him book 6 right? I think the main reason he did it was to get to Harry. Remember Voldemort was scared of Dumbedore. Now he can go straight to Hogwarts to go after Harry
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I think that Snape is loyal to Voldemort. I mean if he was loyal Dumbledore he wouldn't have killed him book 6 right? I think the main reason he did it was to get to Harry. Remember Voldemort was scared of Dumbedore. Now he can go straight to Hogwarts to go after Harry
as rouge said, "Ok, I'm starting to be less patient with those who say ''Snape is betraying DD cuz he kill him''." well he could have been acting on dumbledores orders. read the first page please.I dont understand why snape would be working against both sides, even in the end when he has killed dumbledore and voldemort,they both have a very Loyal and Strong following, and if the deatheaters, or the followers of dumbledore (every other wizard) dont get snape then im sure harry ron and hermione would get him at all costs, they are fighting the dark lord, all they need is another one.
most of my arguments have probably been mentioned but im going to put them together. Firstly dd would never and i mean never plead for his life and to add to this dont you think he would have used a non verbal defense spell as in one book or maybe in one of the films, if it was in a film im happy to discard it but still consider, as i recall in one of them a character uses the lumos spell while the wand was not in his/her hand to find it and as dd was the most powerful wizard of possibly all time i think he would be able to do something because i think dumbledore may have known a spell to stop the killing curse. next snape saved harry in his first year and even though he thought voldemort was dead if he was really loyal do you really think he would try to save harry. even though dd wouldn't have kept him out of azkaban if he tried or killed harry nobody wouldve blamed him if he didn't try to stop quirrel. i have more but its boring typing so ill post after peoples thoughts of this.
As i remember in that chapter when dd loses his wand, i don't think he had enough power to use a nonverbal spell. The impression I was under was that when dd drank that potion in the cave, he was weak and could only do so much. He wasn't exactly in his right mind at the time, and the only time he was, was to save others (the inferi, the dark mark, freezing harry under the invisibility cloak). From what i remember too, is that there is nothing you can do to stop a killing curse as stated in GoF. and finally the only reason snape saved harry was because he felt like he had to because James saved him on a different occasion.
QUOTE(hpalltheway @ Sep 3 2006, 10:18 PM) [snapback]222421[/snapback]
As i remember in that chapter when dd loses his wand, i don't think he had enough power to use a nonverbal spell. The impression I was under was that when dd drank that potion in the cave, he was weak and could only do so much. He wasn't exactly in his right mind at the time, and the only time he was, was to save others (the inferi, the dark mark, freezing harry under the invisibility cloak).
yes he was weakened but think about it he regained himself to save others and to be honest at the moment he had enough in him to speak so i think he had enough in him to do at the very least an expelliarmus without his wand which would have resulted in what happened between harry and lv. you have to remember one thing for instance if by drinking the potion he lost 90% of his power he would still be better than nearly every wizard. in that state he would not or even could not do anything to lv but certainly snape if he wanted to. that is what im trying to say dd would have died fighting even if he had no hope he would not grovel.
edited in after i read your edit.
if he was truly evil it would not have mattered if he owed something to someone and what i meant was that dumbledore may have created a spell or spells of which 1 may have included stopping the killing curse.
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...I have no wand at the moment...I cannot defend myself.
This is exactly what dd said on page 586 in the American version of HPB. I believe what you were referring to:
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as i recall in one of them a character uses the lumos spell while the wand was not in his/her hand to find it
just strengthens my theory that it was a mistake, as jkr has already made plenty of them. As for the killing curse, don't you think dd would have taught it to harry to protect himself from LV and de?
well in the lumos spell idea the wand was close, and it was a basic spell, but when your wand is seven stories below you and you are weakened by a dark potion i dont know if you could defend yourself nearly as well without a wand, and plus we are talking about the unblockable ak curse so he really was stuck between a rock and a hard place.
he said he could not defend himself to draco. totally different as he knew draco would not kill him so he didnt need to defend himself and also it was harry with lumos i think and if harry could do lumos from a short distance i think dd could have done anything from a long distance i mean even just an expelliarmus. ill say it aggain dd would not die without a fight nor would he plead or beg. he knew harry was there do you think he wanted harry to see him plead for his life? of course! why else would he do it. ie it was planned that way. my point is dd would not have gone down without a fight and the arguments your giving are irrelivent to what im saying but more relevant to dd surviving.
honestly Billy bryant, we should be taking this debate to a different forum. We have gone way off topic considering this is the forum for who is snape betraying. And since we have not mentioned snape once in any of these posts we should go to the last night of dd. see you there!
You see the only problem with that Billy Bryant is the fact that Lumos ignite the tip of the wand... not that difficult to do in dire need, and probaly can be done by anyone who wants to... now in Dumbledore's case, his wand was a great deal below him, pointing in an unknown direction... so if he tried to use it, he would need to have it aiming at the top of the tower at one of the DE for it work like Harry's instance of "wandless" magic... not likely. But you see, Harry didnt perform wandless magic, he merely ignited the wand from a distance... so spell was directed without wand, it all surrounded the wand... unlike in Dumbledore's case... so either way... Dumbledore was weakened, and wanted to die in my opinion, so even if he could perform wandless magic, weak or not... he most likely wouldnt have done it, he wanted Snape to kill him on his orders so as to gain a deeper position next to LV... and that is how I will bring this back on topic!!!
~Albus
~Albus
very well put albus, i didnt even think of it as magic with a wand, it jsut seemed like wandless magic, which clearly it is not, so also adding to your thought on aiming, with lumos it is just light that goes in all directions, but to put up a shield or fight back the wand would need to be aimed, which it wasnt, so could he have aimed it without using his hands? and like albus i dont think he would if he could, he had made up his mind
Albus, I finally why exactly dd would want to sacrifice himself. That is incredibly interesting, but everyone interested in the beginning of albus' discussion should really be taking it to the last night of dumbledore, it is too off topic. but anyway i agree albus, there are so many reasons.
No I dont feel we are to far off discussion, we are discussing the betrayal of severus snape... with out the death of Dumbledore involved we would have no betrayal to discuss! lol. So as long as we keep bringing our discussion back around to how this proves snapes innocence/guilt then we should be fine... in my opinion
~Albus
~Albus
yes i agree if snape didnt kill dumbledore we would all just think that he was on the good side, but with the murder of dumbledore we have some what of a seperation in the theories, so the death and the reasons behind them are key to the discussion.
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