i dunno about the polyjuice potion cos that was used by draco for crabbe and goyle but i reckon the reason snape and dd were argueing was because snape told dd about the unbreakable vow and he wasnt gunna help malfoy he was gunna die but dd said he is to important to help harry and draco and told snape if he has to do it then do it now on the potions book im all for harry meant to be getting it for snapes spells cos at the end of the hbp snapes like you dare use my on spells against ME dropped hints to learn non verbal spells and to learn occlumency so my take is dd sacrificed himself so snape could go on to help harry and draco cos i reckon at the end there will be 3 on 1 harry,draco,snape vs voldermort

Sweeeet! You are right about the polyjuice, I had forgotten about Crabbe and Goyle. Thanks now my mind can quit turning that one over. Here is another I keep thinking of: I feel there is significance to Frank and Alice Longbottom and maybe Lockhart as they were introduced and reintroduced in OotP. Also maybe Alice knows something. She may be nuts but even some have moments of lucidity. Is there something to the droobles wrappers she keeps giving Neville. What do you think?

with the longbottoms i dont think neville being harrys friend is just a space in the book he will play a pivotal role in harrys findings along the way neville will remember something from the past i just cant see the longbottoms after 16 years just makin a recovery if that makes sense

I agree about the Longbottoms not recovering but the mind is a very complicated computer. For instance you can delete something on a computer and yet there are still ways of recovering the information. Alice is not sane enough to communicate directly what she is trying to say but I feel that she is trying to say something. I don't think Rowling put that bit in there of Alice and the wrappers with Neville just for sympathy votes. I could be way of base but I really feel there is something there. However it's driving me crazy because I have no clue what it means. I was thinking last night though that Lockhart served his purpose already. The kids needed to see the Devil Snare plant and the fellow on that ward because it came up later. Also perhaps the only reason we were introduced to poor Frank and Alice is because up until then only Harry was aware of Nevilles situation. Now all of the characters that will need to know are apprised of the Longbottoms condition and therefore we may not see them again. It'll be interesting to see how that plays out...

Incidentally, I am getting a bit off topic and I apologize but I do appreciate the input so far and if you would rather pm instead of keeping this in the forum since it doesn't have any thing to do with Snape that would be great. Thanks

I really do doubt that there were 2 unbreakable vows made. Dumbledore belives the best in everybody and having to make an unbreakable vow kind of contrdicts this idea. It sends the message that he does not trust Snape fully and has to bind him to a promise to be sure that he will never betray him. But we already know that Dumbledore completly trusted Snape because he says that several times throughout the series. So, it had to be for something that Snape said (possibly about love) that got DD to trust him and not by something he did, which would be making the vow. You get what I'm saying?

Wow, you guys are on a roll!

OK... Longbottoms and Droobles... JKR has said herself, either in an interview or on her website, that the Longbottoms are not recovering... the Droobles thing was just her way of showing the nice stranger that she appreciates his coming. It means a lot to Neville, because it's from his Mom, no matter what her state of mind.

The polyjuice thing was settled, but I don't think that there were 2 unbreakable vows... I know she tends to show us something, and then use it for something else, but I don't think it was Snape who made it. I still believe that DD trusted Snape because of is ability to love (Lily).
There are several similarities from Snape to Harry. Their hard lives, their pigheadedness, their being tortured by other students (Snape/James - Harry/Draco) and their ability to love regardless of the hardships that they have had to live through. JKR has said that Snape has loved someone... she didn't say who... my guess is Lily. Hence, Snape is good.

rachel_1989 is right, DD did say that he has been wrong, and when he is it's a doozy! Look at his hand!

ooh excellent samsmom!, another member who thinks like me... or perhaps I think like you.. either way we are thinking alike on this topic. I too think that Severus is being trusted because of his ability to love... it fits the story so well. If you are interested in seeing more about what I think on the topic, please read this, The Snape loved Lily thread that can be found in the Great Hall.

~Albus

haha well oops... im just editting this post, any one that read my earlier theory please forgive me... im sick and my mind wasn't working... my theory made no sense...

but since i posted already ill edit this and give my 2 pennies...

I think snape is betraying voldy because at the end of book 6 why else would he be giving harry advice that he needs to learn to use non verbal spells and that he need occlumency.

Ok, I think we all agree that Snape's action during and after the tower scene is more than suspicious, if he was really betraying Dumbledore, but now, I don't want to get to this moment, but earlier, and by earlier, I mean in the cave.
It is Dumbledore's action that make me trust in Snape, my most faithful caracter, the one I trust the most, even more than Harry himself.
After Dumbledore starts to drink the potion, and I know what I'm going to write has already being discuss, but not enough for me, he starts saying strange thing. Here, you know it's translation, so not exact, but almost .



Here, it was very plausible to apply at the potion. Dumbledore surely didn't really want to drink it, but, he knews an horcrux was there... After, interesting part really starts..



If we agree, and there's much in that part to say it is, Snape's true remorse, than we know Snape lied another time to Bellatrix, because he told his remorse where about being a DE, if my memory is good.

Snapeisgood, I don't understand... how are you applying the words spoken in the second quote to Snape? In the American version, it reads
How does this mean anything about Snape? I thought it might have something to do wiith a mistake that DD may have made in relation to the Potters, but I see nothing that could relate to Snape here.
I'd like to understand, if you can explain. We do agree on a lot.
Thanks!

Based on the fact of Snape loved Lily theory, which I agree and support proudly, that quote could really apply to Snape. Of course I thought it could be a mistake from Dumbledore himself. But from Snape's point of view, let's look at it differently.

Don't hurt them, don't hurt them
Snape was asking Dumbledore to do everything to let the Potter (more Lily) live and don't get hurt.

Please, please, it's my fault, hurt me instead.
It's because of Snape, all because of Snape. He told the first part (even if we can still debate if either or not he heard it all or half), so it's his fault if Voldemort is against the Potter.

And the rest is about Snape changing sides, want to die because he can't see someone he loved to die. As Slughorn said in HBP

OK, I see what you're saying... and it's possible that it applies to Snape...but it works better if you think of it this way: Snape allows DD to see a memory of his in the penseive. He is asking LV to spare Lily and her family... he has told the first part of the prophecy and LV has decided that it applies to the Potters. Snape knows that there is no way he can stop LV from going after the Potters and runs to warn DD. After he shows DD the memory, he doesn't care if DD wants to kill him for telling, he needs help to keep the Potters from getting hurt. They are too late to help, and Snape realizes that it was his fault that Lily has died... so he breaks down and begs for DD to kill him for causing her death.

Seeing a memory could explain how DD would repeat this in a way that looks like he is saying it himself. Seeing the memory and the feelings that accompanied it could explain why DD trusts Snape so much and keeps with DD's trust is due to "Snape's ability to love" theory.

I don't know if I totally go along with this interpretation, but I understand what you are saying, and it is possible!

I understand what ya saying with its Snape that is sufferring, just one question. If it was Snape that was sufferring and all we see in the cave is Dumbledore repeating this particular moment, then why did the potion in the cave produce that particular memory? It seemed as though the potion is meant to be a protection against people taking the Horcrux, so why would that happen?

have u ever wondered if its a double bluff?

JKR give clues so obvouis to make him look evil, foolin you into believing he is infact good, when really he is actually bad, it wouldnt surpirse anyone would it.
Throughout all of the books sanpe has been given the impression he is bad when it turns out in the end he was actually trying to do good, espically in the first book but what if, the whole time it has been a double bluff and snape had just been biding his time??

I agree, dumbledore_rocks, even though right now I'm sure that Snape is good... it really wouldn't surprise me a lot if he was bad. I'd be less surprised if he were working for himself, playing both ends to be in the best position for himself, but bad is still possible... especially with JKR!

Good point, Uglybaldboy, I'm not seeing that moment as definitely being about Snape, I just understand how Snapeisgood sees it that way... it is possible, but I can't come up with a reason why that memory would be the one to arise in that situation, unless perhaps that DD always meant to eventually tell Harry about it and he knew he was dying. The potion in the cave was meant to be a means to keep the horcurx safe. We still don't know all of the properties of the potion ... it could be that DD would have died even if Snape had not done what he did.

I agree completely. I won't be surprised if nape turns ou to be bad.Snape is a very powerful Legimen so no one would know wht he really is.

But i still think he killed Dumbledore coz DD asked him to do so in order that Snape remains spy on Voldy.

For me is almost obvious that he today is loyal to Dd, he in the past was loyal to lv but in gof when harry was in dd pensieve dumbledore said that snape gave vital info about lv when he was still powerfull so you cant say that he goes with the winner cause he passed to the "good people" when they were loosing.

I think that he is loyal to dd and dd asked him to kill him cause in the end of the film snape was still "teaching" harry, telling him that if he keep shouting the spell he cant do anything, i think that dd order snape to kill him to focus harry more than ever in his quest and not to convert a murderer of draco.

And why in poa he tried to save harry when he thought that lupin and sirius were gonna kill em??? if he is loyal to lv he will want harry dead. and i wonder what happened in gof when harry saw karkaroff and snape showing the dark mark. someone knows?

Your English is very good, merlin23, and I agree. I am also sure that Snape is good ... but if it turned out that he wasn't, it would not be the same kind of surprise it would be if Sirius was found to be bad... that's all we're saying.

I too think Snape's nice. Even though he dislikes Harry, he respected DD.
So, he is betraying Voldy.

Well, I don't think that Snape was trying to save Harry, not intentionally. He just wanted to get revenge against Sirius and recieve fame from the press when he turned him in. If he wanted to kill Harry, he would do it himself because he would just love to be the one who got rid of the last Potter.

I agree with UnknownLocket on this one, he has said in Half Blood Prince that it would have been foolish of him to allow Harry to be killed in front of him as it would give the game away so if he was loyal to Voldemort then he would have had to at least try and save him and it would have been the perfect revenge against Sirius and Lupin since he hated them so much and this would have been the perfect chance to make them look like the bad guys, have Lupin at least sent to azkaban if not have him "kissed" by the Dementors and have Sirius kissed by them and with James gone that's pretty much every important adult in Harry's life gone.

you have a really good point there UnknownLocket, but i thik that he was protecting harry more than trying to kill sirius and lupin. And like all of us i think that Jk Rowling is really really smart so, do you think that she will be so obvious with Snape being bad? since the first potion class he was bodering harry with fame is not everything and all that. That´s why to me will be a really big surprise to find out that snape is bad. It is obvious that he hated james but i am sure of 2 things. 1 - he loved Lily potter and 2 - he was really regreted when he told LV about the trelaways premonicion.

I think what really asured me that snape is good is in gof when harry falls in dd pensieve. dd said there something like this: we all know that snape was a de but he gave important info about lv whe he was still powerfull, now people can think that was all a strategy of lv but if you think he is really proud and he always think that he is the most powerfull wizard in all the world, he thought that he was invincible so, he only with his powers can beat anyone thats why i think that is not a strategy

The thing is this, I have a really strange theory and is killing me please tell me that is idiotic

Think that the only ones that listen the prophecy were Dumbledore and severus. What if was all a plot and snape was already loyal to dd and he sent snape to lv to tell him that the boy who will kill em was harry cause he knew that lily or james will sacrified them self for harry and that will kill lv? I really dont think that he chose harry and no longbotton for pure luck.

Think that he was desperate and lv was killing everyone, are you gonna tell me that dd didnt know that love can kill or at least debilitate lv? come on he was Albus Dumbledore.

Then he felt guilty and thats why he is always on harry and protect him.

Please tell me that im wrong.

I doubt it, Snape heard the prophecy before he "converted" and so he could not have been acting under Dumbledore's orders when he went to tell Voldemort. I think ti was more that Voldemort thought it was more likely to be the Potter's who would be more likely to be the one the prophecy was talking about after all it was upto Voldemort who he chose to mark, he could have chosen the Longbottoms and then the entire prophecy would have been about Nevile not Harry, I think that the point JKR was trying to get across is that everything in life is a matter of choice and Voldemort it would seem made the wrong choice and now has to live with the consequences of it.

How do you know that he didn t convert already?

I agree that Snape is loyal to DD at the moment and I disagree that he entirely dislikes Harry. Remember that Snape himself said he is a very good actor. How would it look if the Head of Slytherin House favored the Potter boy?

OK, I don't think that Snape likes Harry by any means, dreamwalker, he sees too much of James in Harry to even give him a chance in the beginning. He may not completely hate him, if our theory about Snape and Lily is true, because he sees her eyes on Harry.

As for the idea that Snape and DD set up the Potter killings to fulfill the prophecy using the Potters and not the Longbottoms... No...

1. DD would never risk the Potter's lives, even if others were getting killed all around them.
2. Who says that the Longbottoms wouldn't have died for Neville? His Mother seems kind even in her insanity and has fond feelings for the nice stranger boy that comes to visit her. She most likely adored him as Lily did Harry, and since she was an auror, was brave enough to stand up to LV to protect her son.
3. LV chose Harry, not because of any trick of DD or Snape, but because Harry was more like him... not a pure blood, and LV saw that as a sign that Harry might potentially become as powerful as he was. I agree with rachel_1989 that LV made the choice, which has turned out to be the wrong one, and now has to live with the consequences. Neville, although he is getting better, will never have the power, nerve and passion that Harry has, and will need to defeat LV.

I believe that Snape was not on DD's side when he came to interview at the Hog's Head. They knew each other from when Snape was in school, but I think that Snape was trying to get the position to be an "inside man" for LV, so that he had someone who knew what DD was doing. I think that he turned to DD's side after he handed over the prophecy and LV chose the Potter's as being the family that was being described.

I also think that Snape was trying to protect the kids (including Harry) when Lupin changed into the werewolf. If he was just waiting for his chance to kill Harry, he would never have continued to teach him what he needed to know after DD was dead, when no one else was around. One could argue that he didn't try to kill Harry then because he knew LV wanted to be the one to do it, but why would he teach him what he needed to learn in order to defeat LV while he was running away.

I only have one thing to comment about, and I am sure you know my opinion on these types of things, if not just read some of my posts, they are quite prevalent (my opinions that is).



I disagree. to an extent. I think it is quite possible that Dumbledore could have planned this with Snape and the Potters. I do not think Snape knew about it though, Dumbledore would want the information compartmentalized for security reasons. Why do I think this.. well first, it would be an ingenious plan and would fit well with the desperate nature of the anti-voldemort movement during the first war. Second, a quote, by Dumbledore;



I think that quote is quite powerful, it shows Dumbledore's firmness to ensure that Harry lives. The Potter's were already targets, it would only be a matter of time until they were found, so why not do it in a controlled manner, where you can attempt to control the outcome... that is where this plan would come in. That quote above shows that Dumbledore, for the sake of Harry, would be upset about Lily and James sacrificing themselves for Harry, but wouldnt oppose it. Dumbledore knew Harry was a "marked man", and so did his parents... so they devised an amazing plan to bring about the downfall of the Dark Lord. And maybe, just maybe Pettigrew was in on it, and that is why they switched from Sirius to Pettigrew at the last moment, because they knew Sirius wouldnt have done what needed to be done... betraying friends. This is my last hope I reserve for Peter, I usually have a glimmer of pity for all characters, so this would fit nicely.

Some may be wondering how this pertains to Snape and his betrayal, it means quite a bit. I believe that Snape's apologies for his ways, perhaps his love of Lily, and his possible involvement in such a plot as I have just explained, would add much evidence toward the notion that Dumbledore has been right all along in his beliefs that Snape is loyal to him.

~Albus

sansom We'll agree to disagree with your last point because in the book, Snape was inconscient and never saw Lupin becoming into a werewolf so couldn't protect the kids. In the movie however, it does actually happen but movies aren't cannon.

But, I agree with you Snape was still in Voldemort's side when he took the interview for the job, and during the prohecy. I think when Snape told the remorses about being a DE, it was on Voldemort's order, as he say in Spinner's End, but after, when he heard or overheard Voldemort's plan, then he actually felt real remorse.

Moreover for the Snape loved Lily thing, I'm a proud supporter of that and I already exposed my point (even if everytime I read the books, I find new thing to support). I think Snape never really looked in Harry eyes, just to see his feeling and not his memory. And I also think Snape will remember Lily and will find the courage to kill Harry and Voldemort (I agree about Harry being an horcrux. I'm getting off-topic so I'll stop.

Also for the double-twist, It look like Snape is bad but we all think he's good, to find out he's really bad, I don't buy it. Because I don't think at all Snape being a DE. He's for Dumbledore or for himself, but not ordering to someone (if he loved Lily, than he does obey to order, but he does it for Lily)

Potters, I think they would want to sacrifice themselves to complete the prophecy. Remember what Sirius told Harry, "There is cause to the one that there is need to die". Seal a prophecy is certainly a good cause to die for...

Interesting ideas merlin13 and AlbusDumbledore but I really don't see JKR writing that into the story. It complicates the plot too much and to me it just seems very confusing. I agree that Dumbledore has always been right that Snape was and still is loyal to him, but I don't think that he was ever loyal to Dumbledore until after he told Voldemort about the prophecy.

Also, I fell little bit of pity towards Wormtai as well Albus. I think that in the end he will turn out good but I don't see Harry ever forgiving him. Also, Dumbledore did say that because Harry gave pity on Pettigrew in the 3rd book and didn't let Sirius and Lupin kill him, that now they have a bond that he must break, by doing a favor back to Harry. Just like Snape did a favor to James by keeping Harry safe. So, basically I think that Wormatil will get in a tightspot where he will have to chose between LV and Harry and end up helping Harry therefore playing a part in Dumbledore's downfall.

And just like Snapeisgood already said, I believe samsmom that you got the books and movies cunfused and mixed up because in the movie Snape did "save" harry from lupin as a werewolf, but in the book he was unconscious and getting his head bumped along the roof by Sirius to ever asist in helping anyone.

Sorry everyone! You're all right! I was confusing the book and the movie. I just told a friend that I wanted to start over and read the whole series again, because I've seen the movies too many times after reading the books last. Guess now's as good as any time. It was your description, UnknownLocket, that brought back what happened in the book... I remember giggling the first time, because then I thought Snape was evil, and the picture of him bobbing and hitting his head as they went seemed quite comical.

I'm still not convinced that DD planned the Potter's demise... Remember the quote does say
not friends or beloved students.

I can't bring myself to feel sorry for Wormtail... he's too skeevy! I see your point, that if this was a plan, he would have to be the one who completed it because Sirius loved the Potters too much to betray them, even if it was a plan. Wormtail is such a cowardly and pathetic character, I have no pity for him.

Okay I'm going to try this debate..

First off let me say, all of these theories are great, have gotten me thinking so thought I'd go ahead and try this.. My first time guys be gentle. I decided for kicks (and because I have nothing else better to do while waiting for the birth of my second child) to start the series over, in reading. I haven't read all the books thru in a long while. And have run across a couple of things that made me think.

I'm going to agree with a few of you, I too think snape approached dumbledore those many years ago as a spy for Voldemort. But I honestly doubt that Snape is "good enough" to fool a man as clever as dumbledore, I'm sure he (DD) saw right thru snape, and some how a confrontation was made about that situation. I thought about that while reading the chamber of secrets. When the whole time Harry and Riddle, heard the whisper of the Basilisk and neither one wanted to admit it to dumbledore, but yet DD knew.

But Where I'm going with this, I'm going to have to say that Snape is indeed playing for the good side. He had so many opportunities to harm, kill, maim what have you, Harry. Being a potions master, I'm sure there are many potions and opportunities for him to take advantage of. Then towards the end of HBP he didn't attack harry to harm him.. He attacked harry to stop him. Snape stopped someone else from Harming him (not sure who it was book is put away sorry) when it would have been a perfect opportunity to let this other person harm him and be done with it. But snape was still "teaching" him at the end. As if he was giving advice on what to do. I think that Snape's hatred for Harry is real, but only on a childish level. Because he is James' son. But hate enough to kill him, no. I think that maybe most of the way DD was killed was planned, not in its entirety, but for the most part. Even the way dumbledore died, Every person that has been killed with the killing curse has crumbled to their feet, died quietly, just fell. Dumbledore however was thrown from the tower. Even as powerful as Lord Voldemort is he wasn't even able to kill off Frank the same way that Snape killed dumbledore. So maybe there is something there that will be explained to us in Book 7?

Sorry to interupt but I have been wondering a thing since long. When Bellatrix asks Snape about the whereabouts of HEadquaters Of OOP he says no. But surely He wud know it as he goes there often. So my point is, that he is on Order's side and I STILL think that Snape killed DD because DD told him to do so.

Secondly, I disagree with Albus Dumbledore abt. the theory that DD, along with Snape must have risked the Potters and planned the whole think out. It was LV's choice n that's it. Nobody adviced him to chose Harry.

And I don't piy Wormtail..

I respect your opinion, and I lean that way myself. I am merely playing the part of Devil's Advocate to spark more discussion...though some of your opinions you are presenting as facts and that is the only problem I see:



Well I feel that that is speculative and mostly assumptions. We know that Lord Voldemort chose Harry as the one the prophecy was referring to, but that does not rule out that Dumbledore, Lily, James, Snape, and Pettigrew were not involved in a plot of some sort to use this mark on Harry's life to try anything to stop Lord Voldemort. I know JKR said noone knew the effects of such a sacrifice.. but could someone, Dumbledore, perhaps have guessed some sort of ill outcome and set up a plan... I think it is completely possible.

~Albus

I can see what your saying but that still doesn't explain which side Snape is really on. Remeber, only the secret keeper can give away the where abouts of the OotP headquaters. And since Snape wasn't the secret keeper, he gave a truthful response to Bellatrix by saying that he can't reveal it. Also, I'm not sure, but I think that Snape did tell Bellatrix and us, the readers, why he couldn't tell where the headquaters were.

I'm SO confused! I don't know what to believe.. So I'll just go with my first thoughts, and say that Snape's evil. What he told Narcissa and Bellatrix in the beginning of HBP, seems very logical to me. I think he was telling the truth. And that he IS betraying DD big time..

~Chica

ok, sorry to jump in here, but someone asked me a question in another topic, and I felt that it would be better asked in here. So, Ill post and respond, and let others respond to it as well. Sound good?



Now, I'll resist making a comment about you being finger-lickin' good, and respond to your question.

Ok, well, I wouldn't go so far as to say Snape is "all good." I don't think anyone really would argue that, I hope. Snape definetly hates Harry, and hated Sirius and Wormtail, and would sell any of them down the river without blinking an eye, I think. So no, he's not good. But he isn't evil either. There are plenty of reasons why Snape may have killed Dumbledore, not the least of which would be a pragmatic view that his position close to Voldemort was more valuable than Dumbledore's life, which, I would think, Dumbledore may have agreed with. That doesn't mean that they planned everything out. It could have just as well been a last minute thing.

Anyway, I'll respond to what Tom and them were talking about. I really, really do not think that Dumbledore planned for everything to happen. I doubt that he put as much credence in the prophesy coming true until Voldemort tried to kill Harry and Harry lived. He put faith in Voldemort's faith in it, but not faith in the prophesy itself. It made sence to hide the Potters, and to keep Trelawny safe in Hogwarts as a teacher.

The only plan I could imagine would be to catch Voldemort as he comes to kill the Potters.

Wait... What if Dumbledore and one other person were there waiting, and that's what the deal was with the cloak....

I have my own theories on the cloak, but I'll save them for a later point.

fish

Welcome, Nola! Congrats on your second baby!

There is a debate in another topic about whether or not DD can speak parseltongue. Even if he couldn't, remember that he is a superior legilimens, and can read the thoughts of the students. If there is something that you don't want anyone to know, and you are in the presence of someone as formidable as DD, that thing will be in the front of your mind. Riddle did not want anyone knowing about the basilisk so that it could do the most damage. Harry didn't want anyone to think he was crazy for hearing voices.

If you go back a few pages in this topic, we discussed this exact point as a thought that maybe if Snape's heart was not into the spell totally it could cause the blast that threw DD off the tower. I think the consensus was (if I'm not mistaken) that Snape had to summon so much hate from his past to be able to kill DD (whom most of us agree he did not hate) that it caused the blast effect. There were many variations of this thought.

No one is ABLE to tell the whereabouts of the Order's headquarters. It's a secret keeper situation, where only one person is able to speak the secret, and the others are magically bound to silence. That's why Bellatrix doesn't argue the point, because Snape is unable to answer. I still agree for MANY reasons that Snape is on the good side...
but I'm with savingharry that he isn't a good person... even JKR has admitted that he takes advantage of his position to make the kids in his class miserable. That doesn't mean that he is on LV's side, just that he isn't particularly a nice guy, and his painful past explains major reasons why.

As for the cloak... that is a good point to the argument that something may have been planned at the time that the Potters were killed. JKR said in an interview that one of the questions we should be asking is how DD got the cloak. It could be as simple as that DD could have been under it (or had someone else under it) watching over the Potters, or it could have been part of a plan for that night. I'm still not convinced... I can't imagine that the Potters would have wanted to die, even for the cause, and leave Harry behind alone.

Well I dont know what side hes on, I think deep, deep, deep down in that black heart that hes on the Orders Side, But why would he make his class miserable if he was just PO'd at James/Harry?

Some people are just bitter. We cant seperate the world into good and bad. Everyone has there positive and negative aspects. I do not think Snape wants to be a teacher.. he doesnt seem the type. I think he is staying there to appear obedient to Voldemort, so he can continue to work for Dumbledore. At times I feel he likes it, but deep down he wants more action... and that is why he is bitter to his students.

~Albus

Well, I'm not sure. But I've always questioned whether Dumbledore could see through the invisability cloak. If he can, then that also makes me wonder if Voldemort can too. So, if Voldemort can see through cloaks, then when he went to kill the Potters surely he would have killed that person too before trying to kill Harry. Therefore, I don't think that the idea about the cloak is true and that Harry's parents death was all a plan.

Dumbledore I do not think can see through the cloak, its his magical presence, like in HBP where he can detect magic, he detects a cloak. That does not mean Voldemort can too, Dumbledore cant speak parseltongue, LV can, they are not the same.

Well, I was also thinking whether Dumbledore could speak parseltongue. When they were going back through Morfin's memory he recognized them speaking parseltongue. Whether he was hearing the actual words, or just the hissing sounds, I've wondered how Dumbledore understood the memory.

And of course, I realize that they aren't exaclty the same, but they are both very powerful wizards, so I like to compare them with one another.

I really dont think that dd talked parseltongue cause in cos he didnt do anything. Isnt it weir that anyone heard the basilisc? of course not his words but he is a gigantic animal and if harry heard the words others had to hear the noises of a snake


Question: If nothing was planned previously do you really think that Draco could do anything to dd even after getting the "horcrux"?

No, I definately don't think that Draco could have did anything. He doesn't have the guts to. No matter how mean or cruel he could be he could never kill anyone. He totally froze up when trying to kill Dumbledore, it was like Dd had put the freezing charm on him instead of Harry. Draco's not a bad guy, he's just not a nice one.

Well yeah, I dont think he ever hated DD so why would he?? I dont think any student would want to murder anyone unless you're Neville or Harry because of what LV did.

As much as i'd like to think that Snape is good, i still think taht he is evil. I just think that Snape has always been seen as the bad guy (who changed) but i want to see how bad he is and him being a DE is all that fits.

But remember, TheManekin, that RAB was also a DE and he turned out to be good. Sometimes, people who are lost and friendless will join in anywhere that they are accepted, just to be part of a group, whether they agree with it or not. I think that Snape was angry and alone enough to think that he could be part of the DE group, and then found that when it came right down to it, he couldn't. He's got a lot of anger and hurt stored up from his childhood.

I'm pretty sure that none of us here who think that he is on the side of the order, think he's a good guy. He's just on the side of the order. He's nasty and enjoys torturing the kids, but I still believe that he is on the side of the Order. I think the "Snape is good" wording that we all use is what throws the "Snape is bad" people off. He's not a good person, he's just on the good side.

As for DD speaking parceltongue... several last thoughts... just to close out this tangent.
There is a whole topic devoted to this. DD may or may not speak parceltongue. If he is with the person speaking, he could be using legilimens... remember, Snape said that a legilimens sees pictures in the person's mind, so no matter what they speak, he'd understand. Since DD got all the memories directly from the people, he could have seen what they were thinking as they gave it to him. Also, Harry could only hear the basilisk when it was very close. DD was up in the tower, so if he can speak parceltongue, he wouldn't be in range to hear it.

I have a question, if a really powerfull wizard, maybe the most powerfull (dd) is hit by a freezing charm of a really weak wizard (draco) will freeze him (dd)?

Perhaps DD would be powerful enough to see it coming and stop it.

I think you may have misunderstood what we were talking about when we said there may not have been a plan. Someone brought up that there could possibly have been a plan that led to the Potter's death on purpose, to cause Harry to be the chosen one and make him able to defeat LV. I can't believe that.

There was a plan for Draco to kill DD. LV ordered him to, but he couldn't do it. He's not a killer...yet.

i think that Snape is only loyal to himself, it explains why it always seems like he's switching sides and such. Also, i think Snape kinda felt used by bith sides so he was against them both, either side only ever wanted him as a spy, and he was never accepted among the lower ranks of the death eaters or the order of the pheonix