If Snape really is good, I will find it really hard for The Order to trust him again. Some of them didn't even fully trust him to begin with so it would be really difficult to establish that trust and persuade them to believe him. I mean, first he was on Voldemort's side, then suddenly he's on the good side and joins The Order, then the next thing you know, he kills Dumbledore, which is like the ultimate betrayal.

Not necessarily, DD knew this was going to happen, he knew the Order didnt trust him, but still, Im sure if they let him explain they'd understand, jumping to conclusions doesnt even help that.

Well i voted for Voldermort (Just getting that out of the way)

Anyways i think that Snape is actually betrayign Voldermort because i think he told dumbledore about the Unbreakable vow. and of course snape probaly told DD about what Draco had to do. And with DD being himself probaly told snape to do it so he woldnt die.

I also think that the order knows this and is only playign an act for Voldermort, because Voldermort might be losing his faith in Snape. So Snape kills dumbledore making Voldermort trust him beyond belief. Also relieving malfoy of a mistake.

I dont necessarily think the Order knows anything about it to be truthful, because they were all devastated and Hagrid is a.. not so kind of put up an act guy. Whew, got all that in there, McGonogall might know but this was Dumbledores business, and as you can see through all the books, what DD's business is his business, and he doesn't care who it is, if its between him and someone else, in this case Snape.. Then no one else should know, as you see he never told Harry, his most loyal student.

Well you are probaly right about Hagrid but still i think that the order would know (if it was an act) which i actually doubt. But it was just a suggestion.

Also i think that the order doesnt know everythign that happens in the order. like if it was top secret then they wodlnt tell anyone else except DD and few select others.

But now that i think about it i dont think the order would know because if the order knew then Mcgonagal would know cause she is like Dumbledore's "right hand man" (in this case women).

Yes, well she was Deputy Headmistress. I totally agree with you that not everyone in particular know whats going on, but truthfully I think Dumbledore and Snape connected the most. Mainly because Snape was always making plans with Dumbledore and this one took a great deal of time to concoct. So I agree with every point you made.

i still think that snape is loyal to voldemort, although he could still say that he was under the imperius curse....so its quite a hard choice really

Yes it dose seem that DD respects snape more then others. And it is also my opinion that snape is alot different then he mostly appears. Just look when he was talking with Narcissa. He showed compassion, somthing we havent seem much from him in past exploits. I think Jo made him like that in that chapter so we could see that snape is capable of love.

Its a little puzzling about why Dumbledore trusts Snape, because now Dumbledore is dead we might not find out, and if Snape told anyone then they wouldn't believe him. But I would think, if Dumbledore knew he was gonna die, then he would make sure the truth gets out eventually so that Snape is not held accuntable for the wrong thing. This would leave 2 possibilities:

1 - Dumbledore left a memory to be put in the penseive to show/explain why he trusts him (maybe left with someone, maybe even Snape has it for evidance if it is needed).
2 - Someone else knows the reason (I'd say it would be Aberfoth if anyone, because he is not as involved with the order as everyone else)

I'm not really sure who Snape is loyal to. At first I thought it would be easy to post in here, saying that he is stilll loyal to Voldemort and Dumbledore just doesn't realise that Snape is really evil. But, thinking about it more, I realise that Dumbledore is hardly going to be fooled by anyone, let alone Snape so I think that Snape must have done something really significant to Dumbledore to gain his trust. And would he really do something so big for somebody he didn't have a lot of loyalty to? I believe that he is still loyal to Voldemort but at the same time he is also being loyal towards Dumbledore, I just don't know why that would be. It is one of those things that we will know nothing about until the release of book 7.

QUOTE

1 - Dumbledore left a memory to be put in the penseive to show/explain why he trusts him (maybe left with someone, maybe even Snape has it for evidance if it is needed).
2 - Someone else knows the reason (I'd say it would be Aberfoth if anyone, because he is not as involved with the order as everyone else)

Yes, I think one of those things will probably be the way we find out about why Dumbledore trusts Snape. The most likely, I think, would be through the pensieve. There might be a memory of Snape dong whatever he did for Dumbledore, or something else that shows why Dumbledore trusted Snape. However, the reason why Snape is trusted does not actually explain why Snape killed him... I think it was probably because he did not want Voldemort to find out that he was also on Dumbledore's side, but still, you wouldn't do that to someone you were loyal to, would you? I think there must be a bigger reason to it than the fact that Snape was too cowardly not to go through with it and have to face Voldemort... But we'll find all that out in the final book.

It possible that he did leave a memory in the pensieve but dont you think McGonogall would of found it and told Harry, or he told Harry about or something, just doesn't seem likely.

Err, I dont think so. McGonagall is a classy woman, and would not rummage through Dumbleore's thing so soon. I wouldn't doubt if the Office is abandoned until she feels comfortable. It is now her office, but I have a feeling she would not uproot the place, look at the pensieve, realize what is in it, and then tell Harry. When my uncle died last september, we didnt go into his house for a month to empty it out... and it still isnt empty... we never sold it, and its still has some stuff in it. I dont think McGonagall would be that extreme, but she would be respectful.

So I think there is a good chance the Pensieve will tell some tale.

~Albus

Hmm, maybe he did, but why havent there been clues towards that, doesnt JK always give clues to what is going to happen next? I guess thats possibly and McGonogall would surely do that, but whatever.

I dont think we would need any clues for Dumbledore leaving a memory as to solve Snape's allegiances. It would be overkill. We saw the Pensieve in use all Book 6, as well as we wondered about Snape's loyalties... Dumbledore says he knows why, so a clue to point that Dumbledore might leave a memory behind would be pointless. If we were never introduced to the Pensieve, then I would say yes, a clue is needed, but now that is not the case.

~Albus

Oh I don't know, I think it's possible that Dumbledore may have left a memory that could, potentially, clear Snape. I don't think it's necessarily the way that JKR will go, but it's not impossible. I just don't think he would have left it lying around in a Pensieve, and clearly he didn't entrust it to anyone in the Order or they would have said before now. Maybe he left it in a place that only Harry could find? Or maybe he doesn't need to leave a memory at all...maybe it doesn't matter. Maybe Snape's actions in Book Seven will speak for themselves

OK, just to add to the Snape is more culpable because he has known love part of this thread , here is a JKR interview where she says a little about Snape.

If there is "much more for us to find out about Snape", and we all acknowledge that fact that if you look at it without analysing the facts, it "looks" like Snape is working with LV, having killed DD, then the likelyhood is that the things we will learn about Snape will be why DD trusts him, who he loved and how it changed him. I think that he loved Lily and/or Narcissa. Either or both relationships could have ended badly and turned him bitter, making him a good find for LV to take advantage of. I personally think that "Snape's Worst Memory" was loosing Lily by calling her a mudblood, not the torture that James put him through. I also see an extreme fondness in Snape for Narcissa, who might have loved him once, and then had to leave him so that she was not blasted off the Black family tree, since he was not a pureblood. Anyway, that's for another topic, the gist of it is that he loved and was loved... it obviously went bad, and he is nasty and vindictive because of it, and his horrible childhood. He looked for "friends" and "respect" through joining the DE's but found that it was not for him. He found a "friend" who "respected" him in DD, and is on the side of the Order despite being a hateful person.

As for the idea of suicide... DD's death was not suicide! He did not kill himself, and even if it was his plan, it is still not suicide. DD SACRIFICED his life to save others and help the cause. There is a HUGE difference there!!!!!

Golden Phoenix said that they thought it would be easy to say that Snape was on LV's side until they started thinking of reasons... how true! There are too many things that point elsewhere, like the constant teaching of Harry through his exit from the castle, and much more.

I like the idea of a memory in the penseive to help the others know that Snape was following orders when he killed DD. It's going to take something HUGE to convince the rest of the Order (who don't like Snape as it is) that Snape is on their side, Albus and Louise. I can't think of any other way, unless his portrait can tell the secret. Regardless of his actions, they are going to need proof. I agree the McGonagall wouldn't sort through his things right away, but maybe someone will accidentally come upon it in the middle of the book...

I agree with this. especially about hagrid not being a good actor. it seems like an important theme that keeps occuring is secrecy. and every time, it ends badly.

DD didn't tell harry about the prophecy. this caused a lot of frustration and confusion in book 5 for harry.

DD didn't tell harry everything about why he trusted snape.

In book two dd asks harry whether anythung is bothering him. harry thinks of all the voices coming from the walls he is hearing, and still tells dd nothing.

dd is a bit secretive. haryy isn't very secretive, he seems to be becoming less secretive as he gets older.

I dunno. Snape is probably loyal to himself, I think

I like the idea about the pensive. I also think it's possible that DD left a message for Harry somewhere during the year. If the whole thing was his plan, he could have known that after his death, Harry would have to venture to certain places. He could have easily been setting something up for Harry to know the truth about Snape while on one of his many trips out of the school. He may find something at Godric's Hollow.

What if DD worked it out that he told Snape to be where he knew Harry was going to have to go?

Long time didn't came and happy to see others debate came here because it was becoming a little bit boring 2 months ago. For convincing the order, I'm not sure it would happen. I think it is more likely, and more litterastic to just let him look like a bad guy all way long. Even if the memory would be there, how could you figure out what were Snape's intention. Snape cannot come back in the order, and Harry will probably not know either, because of his exceptional aptitude in Occlumency. Snape will do what he has to do, what Dumbledore wanted, and the order will see how brave he was, how much courage he had to kill Dumbledore, probably after his death, and not before. A bit like Sirius, no one really knew he was good, and he had to live has a murderer, and only being cleared after his death. Then after, if we make a link behind these two cases, we could tell someone knows too about Snape's true loyalty, but I think it's more abstract, in a way. What I mean by abstract, is only him know he's good, and maybe Lily. Yes, she's dead, but if he loved her, it would probably reconfort him to know the only person he loved in his life, knew he was nice.

Also, if someone who's actually alive knows about it, I would put my choice on Abelforth.

By the way, Louise, love your "Femme Fatale" image

Hi Snapeisgood! Nice to see you again, too. I have this topic marked so that I get e-mails when there are new posts... for some reason, I haven't gotton one in weeks. now 3 just today.

Anyway, you made a great point here:
Perhaps there won't be a memory to retrieve, either from the penseive or from some other source in Harry's travels... This would be much more dramatic. I don't care how, just as long as everyone in the Order knows in the end. I just hope we eventually find out why DD trusted him so much, and not that he was just a loyal friend to DD.

I agree with everyone, that the plan was just between DD and Snape, no one else. Hagrid is not good at keeping secrets, and was too devastated afterward, and even McGonagall didn't seem to know anything about it.

Sure their may not be a memory to retrieve but possible receive.. Maybe from Snape, an Order member or finding it himself [Harry]. I also think that DD didnt SUICIDE himself, that'd be stupid.

I know what you meen Snapeisgood, I just started getting back on too. It sounds like i stoped around the same time you did.

DD is a strange character as in his trust factor and who he trusts with what. Remember back in the first pages of PS/SS when Professor McGonagall said "Do you think it wise to trust Hagrid with something as important as this?" and DD replyed with "Ah, Professor I would trust Hagrid with my life" See people have always wonderd about the people DD trusts. It is my belief that DD can see somthing inside of people, see's there true good/bad nature (im not talking about that being a magical power just a conscious power) . DD must know somthing about snape that we do not know for him to sacrifice himself so save him, because with this war there is still so much he could have done. For the order to have lost him there has to be somone powerfull to step up and take some control. I think this may be severus snape ( I dont meen take control of the order. control used as a figure of speach ). As much as some of you hate him, we all have to realize he is a very powerfull wizard. And since there will be no new characters comming in book seven we NEED severus snape to help bring down LV and his DE.

I know I already talk about that and it was a bit different, but I still agree. Legilimency is to see in people's head, but I always dreamt of Dumbledore saying to Harry:
Feelings aren't in your head Harry, they're in your heart.
That come back to the Snape love Lily thing (it always get back there, and I'm wondering if it is the "Heart of it all, that kind of link everything" Jo talk about before book 5 came out, and when people really started talking about Snape love Lily)
Well, for a single reason Harry and the order would know Snape's ultimate loyalty, I would see it like this too, just put you in the context.
Harry is an horcrux, Voldemort is hurt, doesn't have any power, Snape must kill Harry, but Harry still thinks he's a coward, a betrayer. Snape's come near Harry, raise his wand, and before casting is AK, look into Harry eyes. Softly, he says Lily, his wand going down. And with a tears upon his cheek, cast the AK.
I'm way off-topic here

I agree with you too, samsom, that Hagrid is not a good person to tell a secret.

On the line of who DD trusts and why, I think it may be a combination of things... Ligilimency is definitely one of them, as is a sense or power if you want, of people themselves. He also had 150 years of experience dealing with all sorts of people.

He has always trusted Hagrid... no question there, Hagrid is definitely trustworthy! Not with a secret, but with the important stuff. It's not his loyalty that causes him to be bad with secrets, it's his innocence. He's like a big, dumb kid.

I've often wondered about why DD hired Quirrell. But since Snape was the one tagging after Quirrell, DD might have asked him to watch and be sure that Quirrell was trustworthy. Quirrell may have taught at Hogwart's previously (before LV head) and DD just rehired him for the DADA positiion without seeing him again before school. I'm sure that LV made Quirrell keep his distance from DD so as not to be caught.

With Lockhart, DD was probably just desparate for a DADA teacher... after all, how many of them can there be? He probably knew he was a fraud, but Lockhart was a warm body and might be able to teach the kids something.

With Moody, it was his old pal, and he had no reason to think otherwise. One would assume that Moody, being a former Auror, would not be able to be "taken" easily by a DE. DD was also very busy with the Tri-Wizard Tournament and it's "complications".

So even though things have gotten by DD, they are explainable. He was very close with Snape. He worked with him on different levels, school and the Order. He trusted him to help when he hurt his hand. If there was something to know about Snape, DD had more than a good opportunity to find it out. Even with Snape's "superb" Occlumency.

I am convinved that DD trusted Snape for a reason. If you look at Snape and Harry, there are many similarities, both had terrible childhoods, and were raised by terrible people. Both went to Hogwart's and were tortured by bullies (Snape/James and Harry/Malfoy). Both made choices as to how their lives would turn out... Snape chose to join the DE's , then later to spy on them for DD and to fight with the Order against LV. Harry chose not to be a Slytherin and to fight with the Order against LV. How many times have we been reminded that it's the choices you make that determine the person you are and how love is the greatest power of all. JKR has said that Snape has known love (whether it's Lily, Narcissa, or both) and Harry is protected by his mother's love. Anyway, I think that even though they have different personalities, they are very similar. I think DD sees a lot of the same things in Snape as he does in Harry, and that could be one reason why he trusts him. I also think that Snape's love for Lily was another.

I know that DD has said that when he is wrong, he's very wrong, but I don't think he is wrong about Snape.

I think Snape is on Dumbledore's side and trying to get closer to Voldemort by killing Dumbledore. I think Voldemort was testing Snape to see if he was on his side. Snape will be close to Voldemort.

Dumbledore asked Snape to kill him. Otherwise i don't think Snape would have killed him.

I also think that Harry will have his own plan formed and go after Voldemort himself.

Hermione, Ron and Ginny and the other's will die trying to save Harry.

It could be that while going to save Harry they are attacked by Death Eaters while the real battle is going on between Voldemort, Harry and Snape. Snape will die protecting Harry.

Who is Snape really betraying?

there is another forum like this one but thats okay, that one is a little different.

Okay well, first of all i am sorry if I repost somethings you guys already pointed out, because i didn't read most of your posts. I am just going to hurry and tell you a glimpse of what i think, because i think strongly on this opinoin.

It is true that Snape killed Dumledore in HBP. It says so in the book. Snape also was the Half-Blood Prince himself. Why would someone good make up such evil spells. You know the spell Harry did on Draco, Sectumsempra. That was evil. Snape made that spell up. So yeah, Snape must be evil and is betraying Dumledore. Snape also told Voldemort that he didn't kill Harry because Dumledore would kill him.

Why would Dumldore trust Snape so much if he knew Snape was a spy for Voldemort? The truth, well i think the truth is that Snape is a spy for Voldemort. The only people who know this is Dumledore and Snape. Voldemort must have started to suspect Snape, and the only way Snape could prove to Voldemort that he wasn't a spy for Dumledore, was to kill Dumledore and have his own Death-eaters as witnesses. So Dumledore and Snape must have made that plan and that is why Snape killed him.

Snape could have killed Harry so many times, he had alot of chances and he even saved Harry from Quirell in the SS when Harry was playing Quditch. I also don't think that Snape would taech him leglimens to lock-out the dark lord. So Snape is betraying Voldemort and he is actually inncoent.

I really have to disagree about the sectumsempra spell. why is it nessacarily(SP?) evil? all it does is harm your enemies. technically then every spell harry has ever used on an enemy is evil. even expecto patronum(Sp?) because harry uses it against his enemies, the dementors. please explain what you meant by 'sectumsempra is evil', iluvhp.

Hi Cucumberz! I think that iluvhp just meant that it causes serious physical harm to the one you cast it on. Not like a Petrificus totalus (freezing spell), or even the bat bogey, turn you upside down to hang by tour feet, or other hexes the kids usually use.

You are right, any hex or curse used on someone else is potentially evil, but this one causes more physical harm (and potential for death) than most.

That being said, just because Snape discovered or invented it, doesn't mean that he is evil... just powerful and clever. We know that he has a very dark side, even though I believe he is on the side of the Order.

That's more like what I meant to say, thanks.

it is a potentially evil spell, but if harry had invented it and used it against voldemort, then no one would be thinking it is evil, would they? it is just some sort of prejudice against snape. I don't know whether he is good or evil, but you also have to remember that he was 16 or so when he invented that spell. he was very troubled then. he probably meant to use it on james, with good reason, too.

Snape did not just intend to use it on james, he DID use it on james. When harry was in the pensieve and james and snape are fighting. It says something along the lines of

"But too late; Snape had directed his wand straight at James; there was a flash of light and a gash appeared on the side of James's face,"

True, Snape used it on James.
For, what an evil spell is, I don't think you can definite exactly wich spells enter in that category, but more how it is use.
My definition of an evil spell is:
A cast spell that affect by long term the health of a person, mental or physics.
Like Sectumsempra, if you have a little cut, it doesn't really care, but if you're leg is cut, it affect your health.
Finally, when I look at it, it's more explicit when I'm thinking about it in french (more easy to explain with french word)

I think that everyone should stop repeating that Snape is good because he killed DD to get closer to LV...But sence everyone thinks this and Snape is closer to LV, maybe Snape is LV secret keeper..Like Wormtail was to the Potters....Which was mentioned before...He also is close to LV to protect people he cares about, like Draco and his mother. My only wonder is what happens if theres a fight in the book and snape has to fight someone, will it be obvious that he isn't intendeing to kill them...Plus would LV show snape one of his Horcruxes's?

Phathead

The big problem is if snape is put in the situation where he has to fight someone from the order they are going to try there hardest againced him because they think he is a DE. As for is LV is going to show snape a horcrux that has got to be a no. the horcruxes are some of LV most prized possessions and i do not think he would show anybody them because that is just opening uo a chance for someone to kill him. Remember LV trusts no one.

I think Sanpe is only loyal to himself. He does a really good job of hiding who he is really loyal to. But he seems to do what he wants to do for whoever most of the time. I also think he is a little evil but hey, who isn't?

I think that Snape is really Loyal to DD, there are various different reasons but I think DDs death was forseen and that it made Snape look like he was 100% loyal to Voldy and thats exactly what the Order needs, Someone like Snape.

Dumbldore would never kill anybody unless under some certain circumstances where he has no choice. But even then, when did Snape ever tell Voldemort this?



I don't really understand this paragraph here. First you say that Snape is a spy for Voldemort, then you say that Voldemort started to suspect that Snape was a spy for him and he had to prove that he was on Voldemort's side by killing Dumbledore. I'm probably misinterpreting this whole thing wrong, but it seems like you think that Snape is bad, then saying that he is good and conspiring with Dumbledore.



In the second chapter of the 6th book, Snape explained why he didn't kill Harry. They probably may not appear convincable to you, but those are his reasons. Also, he saved Harry becuase he owed James a debt. Just like Pettigrew owes Harry.




Why would Voldemort need a secret keeper? And did they ever say that in the book?



Those are confidential. No one is supposed to know about them, so I doubt he, Voldemort, would tell anyone about them. Not even his most faithful deatheater. Remember, Voldemort is his own friend.

The whole idea of the forums and this topic specifically, is to debate and prove your point. Those of us who believe that Snape is on the side of the Order, do so because of evidence in the books.

Here are a few of the reasons why I think Snape is on the side of the Order: ( note I don't say that Snape is good... he's a creep. He had a horrible life and takes it out on everyone around him. )

When making the unbreakable vow, he "flinched" only when asked to complete Draco's assignment if he could not.

He argued with DD (as overheard by Hagrid) saying that he could not do "it".

He did not take part in the fighting at the bottom of the tower stairs (so as not to hurt any order members while pretending to be a death eater).

He had a look of revulsion when he cursed DD (like Harry did when he had to make DD drink in the cave.)

While being chased out by Hagrid's hut, he did not hit Harry with any bad curses, just blocked Harry's. He even stopped to essentially give him a lesson telling Harry that any good wizard could block your spells unless you'shut your mouth and close your mind.' He did give him a smack with that "whiplike" spell for calling him a coward, but considering the bravery required to do what he had just done, that was understandable.

And my #1 reason... DD trusted him. DD knew something about Snape that we don't yet, and it was good enough for him, so it's good enough for me. I think that DD's death was planned, and that Snape made the same promise to DD that Harry did... to follow DD's orders no matter what! DD would never beg for life. He saw death as the next great adventure. He begged for Snape to keep his promise and kill him. DD sacrificed his own life to save Draco, Snape and Harry, and to keep Snape in a place where he could be the most help... with LV.

Now if you would like to give your book related reasons why you think Snape is on the side of LV, I am willing to listen. Just don't declair that because we may not agree, that those of us who believe in Snape should stop saying it.


HarrysDead I hope your name is wrong... I wouldn't like that ending!!!!

I agree with Snuffalupagous and Unknown Locket about the horcruxes! LV trusts no one! He would NEVER tell anyone how he has achieved his goal of what he believes is immortality. It would open him up to everyone looking for his horcruxes!

I think what is being said is that Snape was a... triple agent. Basically. He works for Dumbledore in the open. But he is working for Voldemort secretly. However, Dumbledore told him to work for Voldemort secretly. A triple cross. Or double-crossing the double-crosser. However you want to look at it. I think it's a good point, too. I think that, no matter how we look at Snape, we need to understand that both Dumbledore and Voldemort thought that Snape was working for them. But really, it get's even more complicated than a triple cross.

It goes one of two ways:

A. A 4-way cross
1) Snape works for Dumbledore
2) Snape does #1 [works for Dumbledore] on the order of Voldemort, and reports back to him (Voldemort).
3) Dumbledore told him (Snape) to do #2 [report to Voldemort].
4) Snape told Voldemort #3 [that Dumbledore told him (Snape) to report to him (Voldemort)]. Snape kills Dumbledore on Voldemort's orders.

B. A 5-way Cross
1) Snape works for Dumbledore
2) Snape does #1 [works for Dumbledore] on the order of Voldemort, and reports back to him (Voldemort).
3) Dumbledore told him (Snape) to do #2 [report to Voldemort].
4) Snape told Voldemort #3 [that Dumbledore told him (Snape) to report to him (Voldemort)]. Snape kills Dumbledore on Voldemort's orders.
5) Snape told Dumbledore #4 [that he (Snape) told him (Voldemort) about his (Dumbledore's) telling him (Snape) to report back to him (Dumbledore)]. Dumbledore told Snape to kill him (Dumbledore) in order to stay in his (Voldemort's) good graces.

Either way, it's pretty confusing. The first one (A) is how the story is presented to us at the end of book 6. The second one ( is how people like myself who want Snape to be good hope it is.

-Fish

I think there is a possiblitly that Snape is good.
Because when he was fleeing with the other Death Eaters,
in book 6
He was being very, ODDLY, nice to harry.

and it's all too stand-outish.

just a thought

<3

hahah samson i actually think Harrys gonig to die, really dont know if i would like that ending or not, but one thing i do know is that Snape is loyal to DD.

That whole triple/4-way/5-way cross thing was really confusing, but the idea behund it makes sense. I relly WANT snape to be evil, because of all the suffering he's caused harry, but I kind of have to agree that most evidence points me to beleive that he is good...
I have given different theories on this to different people, but i think that we aren't supposed to know. J.K. rowling would not want us to know for sure before book 7, it would spoil it. and also, I think that anyone who says that they are 100% positive either way is wrong, just because just when you think that you know something for sure, like that Draco is mean but harmless, a new twist suddenly hits you. You know what I mean?

Cucumberz
Yeah alot of us want to hate Severus Snape at first. All the pain he caused harry. But if you sit down and think about it all snape has done since harrys first day at hogwarts is treat him as a normal student ( well a little worse then that). What im trying to get at here is that he dose not treat him as famous harry potter. Harry comes into hogwarts knowing nothing and not being a very great wizard so snape is quick to point that out. Also we do know that snape hated james potter, but i think that was only a mild reson for him being stern. I believe snape was trying to make harry stronger. That is what i have conceived from reading. I am right with you though I really dont want to like snape, also my favorite character (sirius or corse) could not stand him. but the evendence that he is good it to great.

Normal student? You mean one that wasn't in Slytherin. Even then Snape seems to pick on Harry, Neville and Hermione out of all the Gryffindors. And i would say that out of all the teachers it is McGonogall that treats Harry like a normal student.

The reason why I hate Snape and want him to be evil and get whats coming to him is because of wormtail and Sirius. Being a DE Snape would have known who the traitor was, and would have known it wasn't Sirius. But because he hated Sirius so much, and maybe because he thought wormtail was dead, he kept quiet and let Sirius rot in prision for 12 years. Unforgivable, even if he did hate him. And lets not forget, he would have kept this from Dumbledore too.

Snape wouldn't necessarily have known who the traitor was, if he was good then Dumbledore, etc wouldn't have told him; after all not even Remus knew and he was James' Sirius' and Wormtail's best friend so why would Dumbledore or James have told Snape who was the Secret Keeper? And Voldemort definately wouldn't have told Snape who it was since that would be giving Snape some information that he didn't absolutely need to give him and so this would be a show of trush, which Voldemort is not a huge fan of since he doesn't appear to truly trust anyone so why would he feel inclined to tell Snape that it was Wormtail and not Sirius who had betrayed the Potter's and even if Snape did know, would he really be in a position to say anything: if he told Dumbledore and his evidence went to Sirius' trial then Voldemort would know he had been betrayed and Snape would be killed and even if he wasn't then the Order would have lost one of their most valuable assets in having Snape as a spy to Voldemort's inner circle of advisors.

I agree with rachel_1989 that LV does not tell his DE's anything they don't absolutely need to know to do what he wants of them. Remember, he trusts no one!

After what Sirius and James put Snape through, why would he ever give either of them the benefit of the doubt. In his eyes, they are completely capable of doing such a thing. This is one thing I can't blame Snape for.

But uglybaldboy is absolutely right. Snape does not treat all kids the same. His Slytherin kids can do no wrong. It shows that he has some positive feelings (unlike LV), he cares about the kids in his charge. And he does pick on Harry more than the others, but if you think about how Harry has treated Snape since the beginning... always assuming the worst of him, and not being especially respectful... he'd NEVER treat McGonagall the way he treats Snape, it's mutual.
Since Harry looks so much like James, that must be part of it, but Harry's own behavior (looking in the penseive, defending his father without knowing him, talking back in class) all add to Snape's dislike of him.

I know exactly what you mean Cucumberz! Just when you think you know a character, JKR throws in a new twist... I, too, do not trust Draco. He may seem harmless now, but who knows what he may be capable of in the end... he will either turn out to be really brave, or capable of murder in my opinion. I really don't like or feel sorry for him. There's no way to be SURE about anyone or anything until book 7 is done... and even then, I think we will be wondering about some things.

OMG!!!!!!!!!!

So much peoples thought no think that Snape is loyal to Dumbledore!!


Not an exact quote...

but if you people actulley remember Voldemort said "My Loyal one is at Hogwarts".

and NO it's not Karkaroff or Draco(duh).

Karkaroff ran.

Draco Came in at Book 6.

Also Remember at the start of Book 6.

Bellatrix & Narcissa go to talk to Snape.

Snape even took the Vow!!!!!!!!

Stop being so ignorant

yes, why thank you, as a matter of fact alot of us do



Im glad you brough all this up, for it does seem an unsurmountable task of getting past all this seemingly irrefutable evidence. But as it seems, each can be explained to both sides, leaving the whole issue completely ambiguous, thus displaying the beauty in the character JK Rowling has woven for us in Severus Snape.Voldemort would say Snape is his most loyal one if Snape has been sent into that position by Dumbledore. Snape would also take the Vow, to remain in position, for Dumbledore. Everything Snape does can be presented for the good side, or the bad side. Therefore, unless we dig up some evidence that is so undeniable that ambiguity is beyond a shadow of a doubt, then we will all have to tuck in and wait for Book 7. But since "tucking in" wouldnt be detrimental to the boards, I suggest we talk about the outcomes of each scenario: Snape being good or Snape being Bad. This way, while debating his innocence/guilt, we can further understand the causes and effects associated with such an enigmatic character. Below is a small list of topics we could discuss on the side:

~Why does Dumbledore trust Snape?
~What was the real reason Snape returned to the Dark Lord in GoF, was it Dumbledore's Orders, or loyalty to Voldemort's position he assigned Severus?
~How will the Order ever trust Snape?
~How will the Death Eaters treat Snape now that he is closest to Voldemort as anyone can be?
~How does Snape decieve Voldemort and/or Dumbledore?
~To what extent does Snape's skill in Legilimency extend to?


Finally, as a closing note, I was thinking today of the title of the 6th book. It struck me as odd that it would be such a random title, seemingly not the focus that was presented in the books. The Half-Blood Prince was almost a side story, not really like the other titles... or is it? Does the title: "Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince" highlight the fact that we should look closer at the relationship between Harry and the Prince/Snape. Is this a hint hidden in plain sight as what to expect in book 7? Can we presume the relationship will become deeper, more intricate, whether it be for good or ill. While the title is just as ambiguous as the scenarios, it does one thing irrefutably, it underlines the importance of Snape in the end of the series, and Im really excited for that.

~Albus

I'm pretty confident that Snape was and still is loyal to Dumbledore.




Voldemort said this in book 4 right? In the graveyard? Well, maybe he was referring to Barty Crouch Jr. who was at the school pretending to be mad eye Moody. At that time, I believe that he thought that Snape had betrayed him so he couldn't have been referring to Snape if that's what you were thinking.



Exactly, but that doesn't necessarily mean that all of a sudden he is on the Dark Lord's side again. He took the vow to gain their trust, especially Bellatrix's, and prove that he was still a loyal death eater. But of course, after doing it, he told Dumbledore, who then came to the decision that he must die, so that Snape can work on the inside and continue to help Harry.

OK, the quote was that of the missing DE's in the circle when LV was regenerated:

• 3 are dead
• 2 are in Azkaban (the Lestranges) and will be "honored beyond their dreams"
• another is too cowardly to return (and will pay) (Karkaroff)
• another he believes has left him forever (and will be killed) (Snape)
• and his most faithful servant is presently at Hogwart's and has delivered Harry to LV's "rebirthing party" (Crouch Jr.)

This is not the place to criticize other's opinions, if you have real facts to back up your thoughts, please present them. We're willing to listen.


OK, Albus Dumbledore, I've got to go get my books for quotes on these... want to reread them all, because I've seen the movies too many times and am getting my facts confused.

I do believe that somewhere in OotP, it is said that Snape returned to LV on DD's orders... Snape tells Bellatrix in HBP that he couldn't return right away because that would tip off DD to his loyalty to LV, but I think that he was just trying to cover for the gap in time.

It will take something HUGE to get the Order to trust Snape now. Something that is obvious fast, because I don't think they will waste time listening to him if he comes back to them.

I think the whole scenario of DD's murder was planned to be done in front of as many DE's as possible to make the most imapact on the DE's and LV. They, now have no question as to his loyalty, after all, they would NEVER consider sacrificing themselves for the good of others. I think this will make Snape more privvy to secrets that the DE's know, and will be feared by the DE's as LV's favorite.

I don't know how good a ligilimens Snape is... he is a "supurb occlumens" but that's a whole different thing. Snape never seems to use ligilimency on the kids... never "seems to know what they're thinking." He accuses Harry of stealing from his stores, when in reality, Harry has never done that. I think that he is able to do ligilimency on Harry during the private lessons, because Harry is open to it. I don't think he's good enough to just do it to someone under normal circumstances.

Now, I purposely left out how Snape deceives DD/LV. I think he is deceiving LV. I think that his occlumency is the tool for deceiving LV, but this is based on too many reasons to qoute in one post... it's for all of the reasons that we think Snape is on the Order's side.

As for why DD trusts Snape... I think it has to do with Snapes choices and his ability to love.
I think that Snape loved Lily (and perhaps even Narcissa as well.) I think that "Snape's worst memory" was not that of the torture that James and Sirius put him through, but of the loss of Lily as a friend after she stood up for him (embarrassing him) and he called her a mudblood. I think the proof of this lies with Slughorn. He was teacher to both Snape and Lily, but doesn't seem at all impressed with Snape. He thinks the world of Lily as a student of potions. Thinking on those lines, then there are the notes all over Snape's potions book. If he was such a potions prodigy, why the need for the notes? In my opinion, the notes are tips, given by a "tutor" (Lily). Lily was known for being kind and helpful. It would be in her character to reach out to and help an unpopular student like Snape. Snape could probably not help but become attached to such a sweet and beautiful witch. If, I am correct, then after the "mudblood" incident, she never helped him again, hence the worst memory. The theme of choices and love runs so prominently in the books that it has to be at least part of the reason why DD trusted Snape.

Sorry to back track a little

Sorry, I guess I wasn't very clear, I wasn't saying that Snape knew Wormtail was the secret keeper (although he might have figured it out), but I think he knew who the traitor was that was passing info over to Voldermort. In PoA when Sirius and Lupin corner Wormtail, Sirius says that someone was passing secrets over to Voldermort for a year before his downfall, and that he now knows it was Wormtail (although he thought it might be Lupin orginally). Also, the DE's knew who this traitor was because in this confrontation Sirius says the reason why Wormail stayed hidden for so long was because he feared the DE's that didn't go to prision as they (might?) thought he had double crossed Voldermort. So if they knew Wormtail was the traitor, and Snape was a DE, then Snape also knew that Wormtail was the traitor that was passing info over to Voldermort for a year. Also, the DE's, and Snape, would know that Sirius was not the traitor, and would be able to figure out that he went after Wormtail because Wormtail was the secret keeper and had sold out the Potters.

So to me, Snape knew that Wormtail, and not Sirius, was the traitor, but never said anything because he hated Sirius and James the most out of all the Marauders.

P.S. - I don't thnk Dumbledore knew who the real traitor was until PoA, he wouldn't have let Sirius rot in prision if he knew the truth. Again, a secret that Snape never told him in my opinion.